maid's passport

Posted by neversaynever (212 days ago)

My friend said that i should keep my helper's passport becuase some of them would use it for getting loans.

Or if they have problem with money they would steal your things and fly away.

Pls let me know if any of u keep helper's passport?

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Posted by 50KG (212 days ago)

I believe this it is illegal to demand an employee surrender their passport. But of course because the employee is a maid who lives in fear of losing her job, maids will probably not report this violation of rights to the authorities for fear of losing their jobs.

Perhaps the banks should start holding all employees passports, how many billions of his employers cash did the guy at Societe Generale go through last week?

Posted by Moppet (211 days ago)

Agree as above, you have no right to ask for her passport, what if she asked for yours as security in case you decided not to pay her ?

Posted by kittycat2 (210 days ago)

Keeping her passport is completely illegal. Just tell your maid that you do not want her getting a loan, and certainly not giving your address (she has to), and tell her that you feel very strongly about this.

Posted by evildeeds (210 days ago)

Keeping hold of a passport is illegal and could get you into serious trouble in the future should you have a problem with your helper.

Loans are something you cannot stop, certainly you may not be happy about it but your helper is only your employee, you do not own him / her. What they do in their time off is not your business, with obviously the exception of illegal activities.

Posted by beancurd (206 days ago)

It is absolutely illegal to keep your maid's passport. You can honestly tell your helper that you are very much againts borrowing money from the bank, because actually, it will really become a habit...

Posted by evildeeds (206 days ago)

Really? It will become a habit? Are you speaking from your own personal experience or just guessing? I think just guessing......

Posted by ken132 (206 days ago)

Perhaps you can ask her to show you her passport when you pay her salary... just an idea.

Posted by BUDA (206 days ago)

Years ago, yes banks do take domestic helpers passports when they make a loan but now government have ruled against it.So they no longer do it.I heard this from a friend who works in a bank and used to do this type of procedure.

Posted by isonoawabi (206 days ago)

While banks no longer do it, other lenders still do. My last helper pledged her passport and FDH contract for a loan. I've heard that lenders do not need to be shown a passport in order to lend. They lend against an FDH contract. There is no law against not giving a counterpart of the FDH contract to your helper, is there?

Posted by beancurd (206 days ago)

Evildeeds,
How do you judge me if I am guessing or not about this topic??? Or habitual borrowing is based on my personal experience? I have a neighbor terminated by the employer because the employer was harrassed everynight by the bank. I heard a lot about this topic for over 20 years and I shared my opinion with neversaynever and no need to be sarcastic with my opinion. If you think I borrowed from banks or not is non of your bloody business.

Posted by evildeeds (206 days ago)

beancurd you stated it will become a habit. If they borrow once they will borrow again. I asked if you had anything to back up that statement and judging from your reply above you do not. so you are saying IF someone borrows money they will do it again and again? never seen that! i've borrowed money from banks before but i have no loans, and i don't care whether you know that or not!

being harassed by a bank or lender is a completely different thing and does happen but not as often as you would think.

Posted by aemom (206 days ago)

Please remember the Forum rule:

Answers & Advice: Each forum is set up to allow people to get answers and advice to topic-specific questions. They are asking for help – not sarcastic or insulting comments - so please, if you have nothing constructive to post please refrain from participating.

Posted by Ed (206 days ago)

Time to chill.... although I believe it is illegal to hold a passport as security on a loan, I understand that there are plenty of money lenders/loan sharks (not banks) who still keep the passports when they make loans to helpers.

Posted by beancurd (205 days ago)

Sorry Ed, If I am very rude. I just want to let neversaynever that there will be a problem if the helper will use her passport to borrow money. I am a Filipina and I have many friends for over 20 years in Hong Kong doing this borrowing using their passport as collateral and up to now they are still doing it. I think some banks, they just get the copy of the passport. If they are paying the bank on time, it will be okey but if delaying payments will cause trouble for the maid and the employer. It is really becoming a habit because sometimes a very small money problem, the only solution they have in mind is to borrow money from banks and use the passport as collateral. Of course, everybody has money problem but if we just spend our salary wisely, we can work in Hong Kong without borrowings. I know so many of them, sometimes they just borrow money using their own passport for the sake of friendship. And mostly the reason is spending beyond our means.
Few months ago, I have a Filipina helper friend who was terminated because the employer cannot bear the harrassment they suffer everynight from the bank. I have known this Filipina for over 3 years and tested me to lend money to her but unfortunately, I can be a good friend but cannot afford to lend money to her all the time. The employer decided to terminate the contract. To support what I am sharing this information, the helper stayed with us for few days till she went back to Phils. She borrowed from several banks that I think when she was terminated, she was relieved. Because there is no way she can pay back all the borrowings she had.

About stealing money and flyaway. I also heard the stories about stealing money by the helper. But as we say, there are bad employers and bad helpers as well.

I am participating in this forum to share my experience and opinions. I hope I can be of help either to the employer or for my own people.

Posted by smallfry (205 days ago)

There have been a number of assertions that an employer holding a DH's passport is breaking the law by doing so but no authority cited in support of the claim.

Can one of the posters making this claim please advise which law which is being broken.

Is it a crime? In which case the employer could be prosected by the police.
Is it a civil wrong (eg the tort of conversion)? In which case the DH could take legal action to recover her property.
Is it a right at common law or a statutory offence? If statutory based, then does the provision apply in this situation (eg if it is a part of the securities law it might not apply to a domestic arrangement).

I am happy to be proven wrong, but my own view is that it is not illegal for an employer to hold his/her DH's passport in safe-keeping with her consent (and presumably, handing over the passport implies consent).

As to the original question (and assuming that I'm right about it not being illegal), it seems to me that holding the passport might prevent the helper from getting a loan. Whether it is a good thing to do however, is another question.

I have always taken the view that trust and responsibility are important cornerstones to a successful domestic relationship. Taking a DH's passport from her may undermine both parties' trust in each other and her sense of responsibilty ( and wouldn't you want to trust the person you've given responsibilty for your children and your home?).

I think that it is better to treat your helper as a responsible adult (giving her her passport to look after and the freedom to enter into loans if she chooses) than as an untrustworthy child, incapable of making decisions about her own life.

Yes, if your DH keeps her passport you run the risk that she will default on the loan. However, if you have chosen a sensible person, it seems to me to be less likely that she will default on the loan (or even borrow in the first place) and more likely that she will try to do the best job she can - if you treat her like a responsible adult.

Posted by evildeeds (204 days ago)

Is is listed on one of the government website and I have seen it in on of the handbooks I have but don't have time to search for it. A quick scan of migrants.net does bring this up:

1.) Should my employer or my agency "keep" my passport or other travel documents of mine?

When you arrive in Hong Kong, some employers or agencies may ask you to keep your passport. By law, you have the right to refuse to surrender your passport and other personal documents to your employer or your agency staff member. It is unlawful to force you to give up these documents. If this happens, you should contact the Police or your Consulate for assistance.

http://www.migrants.net/_resources/migrant_rights.htm#1

Search enough and you'll find this on either the immigration or labour websites, can't remember which one.

Posted by smallfry (204 days ago)

Evildeeds

The extract you have quoted supports my view, that it is not illegal for an employer to hold an employee's passport with his/her consent.

Saying that an employee has "the right to refuse to surrender" his/her passport and that it is "unlawful to force you to give up these documents" is very different from saying that it is illegal for an employer to hold the employee's travel documents.

If the employee does not exercise his/her right of refusal (and I expect that many will be too scared to assert such a right) and there is no force on the part of the employer there is no illegality.

Clearlymigrants.net is discouraging the practice and encouraging migrants to assert their rights to control their property. However, whether a new DH would be brave enough to risk jeopardising his/her job if the employer asked to hold the passport "for safe-keeping" is a different matter.

Posted by evildeeds (203 days ago)

I'm sure it listed on one of the government site that you cannot ask for the passport, but as I say can't remember which one but did see a couple of weeks ago.

For me I am an employer so I treat my DH as I would any of my other employees. If I wouldn't ask my employees to surrender their passports (and I employ a lot of expats) then I would not ask my DH either. One of the main problems with employers of DH is they do not understand how to be an employer and that's when problems start.

Posted by short time (203 days ago)

a girl i know has her passport kept by her agency. is this allowed? what can she do about it?

Posted by tgm (203 days ago)

I always thought keeping the passport was illegal, but having done a quick search I can't find anything to back that up in the FDH guide, Labour Dep't website or Employment Ordinance. However, i recall overseas workers during Chek Lap Kok airport construction complaining their passports had been kept by their employers and the Contractors getting into real trouble with Labour Dept (banned from employing overseas workers..?). The Employment Ordinance covers all overseas workers, including FDH.

In any case I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea if later on you have a dispute with your FDH - I can see real problems with Immigration if she complained to them "but sir/madam took my passport off me when i started working for them...". Would hardly put you in a good light as far as Immigration was concerned.

Even if it isn't illegal to do so, is it reasonable..? Put yourselves in the FDH's shoes, if you were working abroad and arrived in a foreign country to be told you must immediately surrender your passport would you agree to that..?? I don't think that's a reasonable request at all.

Posted by minidom (203 days ago)

The keeping of workers passports transforms the employment relationship to potential bonded labour under international law and is illegal in HK.

To Short time specifically:

It is illegal for Agencies to keep the passport of any worker they hire/hire out. They should know this.

If you friend has had her passport retained she should ask her employer to come with her to get it back as some agencies refuse to hand them over. If neccessary state that the helper is needed to to accompany the family on a trip to Macau (for example) and they need the passport back.

If she cannot get her employer to help she can contact anyone of these support groups as well as going to immigration and/or labour department


Asia Pacific Mission for Migrants - Telephone: 2723-7536

Asian Migrant Centre - (852) 2312-0031 (852) 2991-0111

Salvation Army Migrant Workers' Counseling and Referral Centre 2893 0081

Association of Indonesian Migrant Workers in Hong Kong 2314 7316
Indonesian Migrant Workers Union 2375 8337

The Hong Kong Coalition of Indonesian Migrant Workers Organisation 2573 4563

United Filipinos in Hong Kong : 2810 4379 2/F New Hall, St John's Cathedral, 4-8 Garden Road, Central

Association of Sri Lankans in Hong Kong 2812 0962

Posted by smallfry (203 days ago)

minidom

While I agree that forced (bonded) labour is illegal in HK, I do not agree that holding a DH's passport by an employer with the consent of the employee (as discussed in my comments above) "transforms the employment relationship to potential bonded labour".


The International Labour Office defines forced labor as: “Work or service which is extracted from any person under the menace of a penalty and which the person has not entered into of his own free will.” Explaining the concept, Senior Specialist at the ILO, Caroline O’Reilly said: “There are two things related to forced labor. A person is working not of choice but is being forced to work and secondly the person is working under the threat of a penalty. Working under slavery-like conditions is how we can define forced labor.”

Forced labour is most commonly a problem with abuse of human rights in matters concerning illegal immigrants (eg forced prostitution). It is extremely unlikley to arise in the situation described here.

My point is that, although (like most posters here) I do not condone or approve of the practice of emplyers holding their helpers' passports (with consent), it is not correct to say that the practice is illegal. Holding a passport without consent is clearly a different matter.

Posted by BumpyDog (203 days ago)

A helper may feel unable to refuse to hand over her passport to her employer. If this the case, is she deemed to have truly consented?

Posted by smallfry (193 days ago)

Reluctant consent or consent with misgivings is still consent and I think that the act of handing it over implies consent.

It is possible that the FDH could argue the "undue influence" of the employer directed her actions, particularly if she says "I'm not happy about this" or "This makes me very uncomfortable" as she is handing it over. However, "undue influence" (generally a legal defence, ie raised to counter the claim of the person bringing the legal action) would be difficult to establish and it is hard to see the legal context in which it might be raised by a FDH (let alone succeed) in this situation.

Holding a passport without consent (eg if the employer refuses to return it to the FDH upon request) may be actionable by the police and/or give rights to civil action (conversion?) or statutory rights (eg others have suggested offences under the employment ordinance). It seems to be to be extremely unlikely that a FDH would have the resources to sustain a civil action and questionable whether other legal avenues (if available) would be pursued.

I continue to think that the proposed practice is not illegal and, even where it might be (ie where there is no consent) there is likely to sufficient doubt and uncertainty to deter FDHs from proceeding. Even in clear-cut legal cases costs can be significant.

Posted by hkwatcher (193 days ago)

A quick search of the Philippine Consulate has a link under the "Assistance to nationals" page and guess what it says?
When to call the Police Hotline 999
1.When your personal safety is at stake
2.Sexually harrassed etc
last one the list is
When your employer refuses to give you your personal belongings, passport and documents.
It seems to me that if you insist on this point, you may be sacrificing some part of the employer/employee relationship. Is it about control or trust? If you have hired a girl you trust with your children and household, perhaps you should trust her with her own life decisions......