Min wage for DH - HK$6864!?!?

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Posted by Happy Mummy (46 days ago)

I have been away for a bit. I return to HK to read in horror that the Federation of Asian Domestic Workers' Union has siad that min wage should apply to foreign maids and suggested a rate of HK$6864. Are they for real!?!?

Oh, and food allowance is now raised to HK$740 from HK$300! (I actually agree that no one can live on HK$300 a month for food but to raise it officially to HK$740 is quite a jump and it effectively put the minimum wage of helpers to HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320...)

It was widely reported in SCMP that these days, fresh university graduates count themselves lucky if they can find a job paying HK$6000-7000. And the job is certainly not going to come with accomodation, utilities, food, etc.

Does the job at McDonalds that pay min wage comes with the above? If not, why should domestic helpers be considered on par with the average workers for minimum wage? Surely it can only makes sense if we pro-rate the cost of their room, food, utilities, etc into their total wage (ie. they pay for their own accomodation/utilities/food), especially since all of these things are required by law to be provided for? Else would not it become positive discrimination towards the domestic helpers?

Correct me if I am wrong.

The more I am thinking about this issue of the employment of domestic helpers, the more questions are popping up in my mind:

If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?

When we interview for a job, we will certainly be asked to demostrate our ability eg. an equities analyst position may be required to present a stock recommendation, a manager a business plan, a chef to demostrate cooking several dishes, a tailor to sew something. But yet it is illegal to ask a person interviewing for a domestic helper position to do a try-out and clean the house or cook a dish?? (For those of you who do not know, it is illegal. Under the Labour Ordinance, you can only interview a maid but not ask her to do any trials.)

Essentially, unless you are getting a recommendation from a close friend, employers of domestic helpers have to hire very much on blind faith which means most employers are inviting virtual strangers into their homes and giving them access to everything most intimate and personal such as everything you own in your home, your children and food that you eat!! The employee has great potential to do grave harm!! How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!! Why is it that employers are not given even greater power and ability to better assess the quality of the candidate before hiring? Surely this is contradictory to common sense or am I seriously missing something here?

Back to the minimum wage issue. Given that there is such a wide range of helpers and hence abilities, I think there should not be a flat minimum wage to apply to all. While it would be hard to find a university/post graduate who would apply to work as a cook at Cafe de Coral, there is as many university grads as those who barely went to school applying for position of domestic helpers. Perhaps a better idea would be to tier whatever new minium wage that would be proposed for helpers?

Oh, and have those who are pushing for the new minimum wage to be applied to domestic helpers forgotten that well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85??? As far as I know, that is a lot higher than the proposed minimum hourly wage which is somewhere in the HK$20s to low HK$30s from what I last read. So in that sense, most of them are already paid for part of their work way above whatever new minimum wage to be legislated! (Given that the policing of illegal parttime work by domestic helpers is almost non-existent, it is fair that we acknowledge such illegal work as permissible quasi-legal work..)

Of course there are some super helpers who are kind, hardworking, capable, great with children, super chefs, blah blah. But do a proper poll of a large enough sample of employers and I dare bet that a big majority of employers find it hard to find a good decent honest worker. Hence, I think we should not be thinking only about the upside of rewarding a good helper (i am sure if you have one, you will know she is worth her weight in gold and would pay her according to keep her working in your household) but to protect employers who have so little power in the hiring of, I would say, the most important employee ever.

I know there are scores of domestic helpers and selected persons employing good helpers on asiaexpat and who are reading these columns so I guess I should be expecting hate mails.

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Posted by beachball (46 days ago)

Without taking sides in the debate of whether DHs deserve a higher wage (whether fixed or minimum), the OP's message contains many dubious assertions and untruths. Listing just a few:

1. "If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?"

Probation is not really relevant, given that one can terminate a DH easily and without cause by giving one month notice (or pay in lieu).

2. "When we interview for a job, we will certainly be asked to demostrate our ability eg. an equities analyst position may be required to present a stock recommendation, a manager a business plan, a chef to demostrate cooking several dishes, a tailor to sew something."

Many positions throughout the economy are filled based on interviews, qualifications/certifications, and references/reputation rather than demonstration of abilities/capabilities (e.g., I have never ever heard of a candidate for a equity analyst position being required to present a stock recommendation). In any case, it is not capabilities that ultimately matter but performance - and the latter can only be observed after the hiring/on the job.

3. "Essentially, unless you are getting a recommendation from a close friend, employers of domestic helpers have to hire very much on blind faith which means most employers are inviting virtual strangers into their homes and giving them access to everything most intimate and personal such as everything you own in your home, your children and food that you eat!! The employee has great potential to do grave harm!! How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!! Why is it that employers are not given even greater power and ability to better assess the quality of the candidate before hiring? Surely this is contradictory to common sense or am I seriously missing something here?"

The position of DHs is not unique in that respect (other than having somebody sharing ones home). In fact, my PA at work almost certainly has the potential to inflict much greater financial and professional harm on me, considering her access to my personal information. And my PA was hired based solely on interviews and references as well...
In short, whenever one hires somebody to perform important or sensitive tasks (whether it is to manage finances or prepare food) one needs to exercise a degree of care - caveat emptor.

And “How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer”? The answer is not many – and even fewer of these are reliable or confirmed reports.

4. "...well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally..."

What is the source for this? In my opinion, this statement is almost certainly false.

5. "...at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85??? As far as I know, that is a lot higher than the proposed minimum hourly wage which is somewhere in the HK$20s to low HK$30s from what I last read. So in that sense, most of them are already paid for part of their work way above whatever new minimum wage to be legislated!"

That is not correct. Even if all DHs have the option to do "quasi-legal" or "illegal" work at higher hourly rates, it is highly unlikely that they would reach the proposed minimum wage on weighted basis. It is simple maths...

6. "(Given that the policing of illegal parttime work by domestic helpers is almost non-existent, it is fair that we acknowledge such illegal work as permissible quasi-legal work..)"

This statement is definitely false. Just look at the statistics for DHs who have had their visa terminated (and will not be able to obtain another one in the future) for working illegally.

7. "But do a proper poll of a large enough sample of employers and I dare bet that a big majority of employers find it hard to find a good decent honest worker."

This is demonstrably false. Easily refuted by the number of DHs retained/having their contract renewed vs. those terminated and replaced.

8. "...but to protect employers who have so little power in the hiring of, I would say, the most important employee ever."

This is just polemic. Employers have plenty of power both in the hiring process and the ongoing employer-employee relationship - it is just a question of using this power diligently.
And while our DH is valued and important member of our household, she is FAR from being my most important employee, let alone my "most important employee ever."

“I know there are scores of domestic helpers and selected persons employing good helpers on asiaexpat and who are reading these columns so I guess I should be expecting hate mails.”

You should expect people to take issue with some of your unfounded claims and judgments.

Posted by Happy Mummy (45 days ago)

HKWatcher: If DH pays for and gets their own home, they too can stay in their homes after work. And you don't get paid HK$50 an hour at McDonald's. There was a SCMP article a while ago which polled the wages at the fast food chains (McDonalds, KFC, Cafe de Coral, Maxims). It goes all the way from HK$18-$25. That is exactly why there is this call for minimum wage to be legislated. Various lobby groups are pushing for HK$25-33 an hour depending on if they represent employers or employees. If DH pays for and gets their own home, they too can stay in their homes after work.

Beerboy: are you one of those who passes on the responsibility of raising your kids to your DH? I have two helpers at home and I take care of my infant child on my own. I do all the bathing, the changing of diapers, the cooking, the putting to bed, the cuddling. Raising children is the responsibility of the parents. Helpers are there to HELP only. I said in my initial post that if one finds a great helper, one should definitely pay well above the minimum wage. But the minimum wage should not be raised as that will blanket cover all helpers whether they are good or otherwise.

Beachball: you are missing many my points.
1. Being able to terminate with one month's notice is a termination of contract. It is different from being on probation, not getting employment confirmed and terminating with 7 days' notice. My point is why are probation periods not allowed in DH's contract?
2. Do abilities not lead to performance? Of course, not necessarily and not always the case but certainly one judges and hires based on (perceived) abilities and demostratable skills and hope for performance? Are you one of those managers who just hires based on a nice CV? You make me laugh when you say you have never heard of a candidate for an equity analyst being asked to present on a stock. Perhaps so, if the hiring manager is lazy and not doing proper due diligence, or the analyst is ranked and wellknown in the market. Otherwise, certainly it would be the first question in an interview.
3. Sure, your PA can possibly do you some financial and professional harm but it is unlikely that she can harm you and your family physically. Physical safety and comfort is a primary concern and comes above financial or professional concerns. How would you feel if your PA has the opportunity to ill-treat your children without your knowledge?
4. How much have you dealt with helpers in real life? Have you spoken much to your colleauges or friends whether they have parttime help?
5. Eg. 4 hours day at a median rate of $65 an hour 6 days a week makes $6240.
6. What is the statistics? Do you have it? Do share. I dare bet the percentage is a tiny one of the entire DH population.
7. Again, do share the statistics. Otherwise, you are merely stating unfounded claims and judgements.

Punter: I am in favour of a minimum wage. I am just not in favour of RAISING the minimum wage.

Kittycat2: you should perhaps pick up an economics textbook and read on the evolution of economies. Every economies, the more wealthy/developed it is, the more it uses foreign workers for the 'lower' value-added jobs. In a sense, it is irrelevant how many locals would take a DH position and how much it would cost.

Thank you to those who came up with constructive comments such as that the government should be focusing more on ensuring that employers are indeed paying minimum wage to the helpers, the hardship on lower income families if the minimum is raised, the snowballing effect, etc. Let's have more of these constructive comments and suggestions please. Particularly from readers who actually are in close contact and managing DHs.

PS. I hire two DHs for a household of 1 adult and 1 child. And both are paid well above the minimum wage. Comments like "If you don't like FDHs, don't hire one!" and "If you wanna play, you gotta pay!" are sadly pretty pathetic.

Posted by Happy Mummy (38 days ago)

Cowleyp: what is the relevance of your comparison of HK with UK/Europe/US? Can philippinos or indonesians or anyone find an employer there, apply for a visa to move and work as a DH? A BIG FAT NO!!! (except for very very special and limited cases). So how does that help the supposedly desperate people looking for jobs and income???? And really, is it that great to work or live in a country where your official and legal status is "alien" such as in the US??

"Anyone employing a DH is taking advantage of their desperation"?? Are you kidding me? A DH is not a slave, he/she is very much free to go if they do not like the job. But yes, maybe you are right that some of them may be desperate. Desperate for money! And there is money to be made in HK. Very good money. (eg. My helper tells me she makes more in HK than the branch manager of the bank in her town in Philippines.) And that is why they are here!

By your line of reasoning, should we employers of DH "not take advantage" and hence not employ them and let them be jobless and without income in their country?

Poor you, are you employed by your boss out of charity?!! Do you employ a DH who cannot carry out her duties but you still pay her for the sake of charity???!Gee, which organisation or person employ a person out of anything but 'self interest' (or more accurately, mutual interest)? Of course, employer needs the house to be cleaned, employer finds a DH who can do it, employer pays the DH. A DH needs money, he/she finds a job he/she can do and land, he/she gets paid for it. Everyone is happy. Anytime one party is not happy, walk away!!!!

Seriously, once again, there exists a min wage law for DH currently. It is a MINIMUM wage law. All employers are free to pay more. All of you out there yelling about how DHs are worth at least this amount, that amount more than the current minimum, I sincerely hope you are paying it. If not, after all that you say here, you are just a hypocrite. Some said they are worth HK$10k a month, go ahead pay it. No one is saying you can't. All we are trying to discuss here is if DH who are already protected under a min wage law should be included in a proposed min wage law for local labour and if they should have the same employment conditions as local labour with regards to probation, provision of accomodation, etc.

A min wage law sets the bar as the lowest denominator. Both for employers and for employees. If a DH is that good and worth more, negotiate for more! If an employer values a DH, pay more! Other than the baseline of a min wage protection for DH, it is a FREE market.

If you think about it, local labour does not have any protection currently and there are massive abuses going on which no one seems to be yelling about. Street cleaners, toilet cleaners, security guards..quite a lot supposedly getting just HK$4000-5000 a month...anyone saying that is unfair?

Posted by miao miao (37 days ago)

Agree with the economic analysis. The HK government will look at this issue with the general HK households in mind instead of the small portion of wealthier expats. In my view the current economic equilibrium (i.e., number of households able to afford a FDH so as to earn dual income, and number of FDHs that can find a job here earning double to triple the salary for an office job back home) achieved by the current min wage requirement is probably better for both the employer and the FDH sides AS A WHOLE, than if the min wage is raised to 6000+.

Of course everybody wants a better, and even better pay, and it's nothing wrong for the FDH organizations to lobby for that. They should keep in mind, though, the econonimc reality and consider whether they are really doing a good thing for those they represent AS A WHOLE.

As others have pointed out, the bigger problem now is enforcing compliance with the current min wage. If that amount is actually paid out, and considering the provision of food, accommodation, utility, etc., which others workers in HK have to pay out of pocket, the FDH's monthly income does not seem much lowever, if any, than that earned by workers on similar jobs.

There is also the argument that even though FDH's actual monthly income may not be that low, they work long hours and therefor earn a much lowever hourly rate than workers like a security guard or toilet cleaner. That's a fair statement. There are other facts to this, though. One is that DHs don't need to travel to and from work. A lot of low paid workers on HK island live very far away and their 8 or 10-hour day can turn into 12 to 13 hours if you count in their commute time. Secondly, the nature of the DH work in a lot of households is like a morning shift and then a late-afternoon and evening shift. They get plenty of break time during the day and the actual hours worked is not non-stop from 7:00am to 9:00pm. Finally, I'm in total support for the government to allow the FDHs to live out; aside from more privacy and room for both sides, I think that's the only way they can be sure to have a more regular working hour like other workers.

Finally, as others have pointed out, there is virtually no mechanism in place to monitor the quality of FDHs that are able to come to HK. Even though the DH job does not require that much education or qualification, it is not for everybody; one has to be reasonably good at doing housework. Generally if she was not a good housewife in her own home, she probably cannot do that well in other people's home either. Plus she needs to be able to understand and follow instructions. I used to hire a part-time FDH (without knowing it's illegal at that time) for 4 hours a week on a rate of 80/hour. She's excellent. She also worked for some of my colleagues. I estimated that her income from these side jobs were around 5000 per month. Without discussing the illegality issue, she's well worth the pay. In contrast, my first full-time FDH (she's a nice person, BTW), a college graduate, when she started, she had no idea how to operate even the most basic appliance such as a vaccum machine, a washer, or even an iron (not that she could not use the special models we had; she simply didn't know how to drag along a vaccum for example), despite her claim that she knew how to use all those during the interview. It'd took her one hour to iron one shirt and it's still wrinkled. Her hygiene standard desperately needed improvement (she'd change the baby's diaper and, without washing hands, prepare his milk). The training she had supposed to have received from the agency was just bullsh*t. She basically had too much to catch up and she may never be in par with my old part-time. I was glad that I started her at the min wage and not more, and told her I would increase it if she improved. (She then had family emergencies and had to go back after 1 year, and I paid her a lump sum bonus to show appreciation for her effort (not so much for her work quality)). Bottom line, is, if you have a really good helper, you could and should pay more. But some of them lack even the basic quality/skills for this job and may not work out after months of training. In thoses cases, the current min wage, considering again what other workers make, does not seem to be unfair.

Posted by evildeeds (37 days ago)

I haven't been involved in this, and agree that raising the minimum to such a level would cause issues however the first post is full of so much tripe that feel I have to answer!

1. "I actually agree that no one can live on HK$300 a month for food but to raise it officially to HK$740 is quite a jump and it effectively put the minimum wage of helpers to HK$3580+HK$740=HK$4320..."

Quite a jump for an allowance that has not changed for 26 years. And what would it have been if it tracked inflation?

2. "fresh university graduates count themselves lucky if they can find a job paying HK$6000-7000. And the job is certainly not going to come with accomodation, utilities, food, etc.Does the job at McDonalds that pay min wage comes with the above?"

No, but close when you consider that most of these people will be in public housing, a luxury not available to FDH or even yourselves.

3. "If the domestic helpers want so much to be considered like the average worker, why is it their job does not come with probation? Why is it all employers except employers of domestic helpers allowed to stipulate a probation period in the contract?"

Discussed a couple of weeks back. Considering FDH usually pay a huge amount to agents just to come here, who's going to cover that? You don't pay $20,000 to get a job here, a huge proportion of them do. Probation is not even an option, however termination is easily enforced and regularly is.

4. "How many stories have we heard of nightmare helpers putting bleach in baby's milk, spitting into the food as they cook, stealing, laziness, and even killing the employer!!"

Actually all stories involving FDH make the news, and as a percentage of FDH here in HK the number is tiny. If it gets to be so common that it doesn't make the news anymore then is the time to start worrying.

5. "Oh, and have those who are pushing for the new minimum wage to be applied to domestic helpers forgotten that well over 50% of all domestic helpers in HK are doing parttime work illegally at rates starting from HK$50 an hour and going to as high as HK$85???"

2 words for this. Absolute rubbish. You of course have a credible source for this accusation?

And from germanboy 'they have got used to living free in a place like hong kong which is the most expensive city....DH play with the law here...everyone knows this.."

Everyone plays with the law here, as mentioned above - Public Housing - is one of the most abused provisions in HK.

punter "Or you can wait for the 45-year old amah from the mainland. They might be coming soon. Are their wages also going to be the same?"

Yes, the mainland helpers will be employed at the same rate and with same conditions as curent FDH.

Overall I agree that applying this as a minimum wage would be disastrous for the industry but if you have issues with it spell it out in a rational way, not in a baseless diatribe. Think about why things are the way they are.

Posted by DaisyFlower (5 days ago)

I totally agree with the poster. After so many dismal experiences with Filipino DH's, I finally found a local Chinese to work for me. $50 an hour and she does more in a half a day than a Filipino would do in a week. We're soooo glad to be rid of the DHs! When I went back to work full-time, I paid my Chinese helper $7,000 per month and worth every penny of it. She didn't ask for such a high wage. Her motivation is not just monetary gain. She also wants a part-time job to occupy her because her kids are all grown. I offered her such a wage because I would have been embarassed to offer any less to someone that busted her butt the way she does. Ah, but that is the difference between the Chinese and Filipino work-ethic. If the DHs want a higher wage, then prove that you are worth it! I liked my Indonesian maids because at least they seemed grateful for their job and were willing to listen to instruction and follow advice. I would pay them more because I appreciated their attitude and help. I haven't met a Filipino DH who didn't think she was "above" being a maid and "above" following the ways I wanted things done. There are agencies that place local Chinese ladies for "temp" work--cleaning, babysitting. There is an temp office at City One rail station, near the exit towards the hospital. If you're fed up, like we were, find a Chinese helper. Language may be a bit of a barrier if you don't speak Chinese. But, if someone knows what they are doing, you're not going to have to explain a whole lot. When I was in Indonesia, I couldn't communicate directly with my maids but there were no issues to discuss over like the ones I had with Filipinos in HK. Just compare the work ethic between the countries of Hong Kong and the Philippines. I think that's why local Chinese can't see paying DHs such a high salary whereas the maids keep on screaming for higher wages. We'll never see eye-to-eye. You think you are expending all your energy (cell phone in hand) and we wonder why you've barely scratched the surface (of the dirt and list of responsibilities!)

Do yourself a favour and the Hong Kong economy a favour and higher a local Chinese. If you're lucky, you can find a Chinese housewife whose whole purpose is not making as much money as possible off of you but maybe also filling up some of her extra free-time. There's a huge difference between hiring someone to work who is doing it solely for money and someone who is doing it to occupy herself and sees the extra money as pinmoney. You get real cheerful, appreciative attitudes and less games, manipulation, dishonesty, attitudes. No more people wanting to borrow from you.

I can't wait until they open the floodgates for the mainlanders to come in. They will outperform the Filipinos by lightyears and there will be no more jobs for the DHs. And... they'll still be screaming for higher wages, even as the jobs disappear for them.

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