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To go ahead with contract or not?
Posted by adele78 (18 days ago)
We've lived in HK for 18 months and have not had full time helper before. We've in the past hired an Indonesian lady part time (former domestic helper and now married to a HK res expat) for a little housework and babystting but now that I am due with number 2 baby in Feb, we've interviewed a couple of ladies.
We'd only interviewed 2 and then 5 days passed and the 2nd lady called us to say she'd had another offer but liked us and would prefer to give us a chance to sign first. I spoke to her current employer (repatriating and has been very happy wit her) who gave a great report and told s of her many virtues and we decided to not interview the other 3 we'd had in mind and go ahead.
We had her up for another chat (no paperwork signed yet) and I thnk she's nice and could work well in our household but I have a few points I'm apprehensive about.
We want someone to start in Jan as we have a new baby due in mid Feb and feel this is enough time for a new helper to get to know us and our needs and for us to train/guide her in her role. This helper wants to start immediately after finishing with her current contract (20th of Dec) which is not convenient as my mther is visiting from 18-27th Dec and it would be awquard and distracting to have my mother here and be training the new DH. We agreed to the 22nd of Dec which I feel doesn't really suit me at all and I'm already starting to resent agreeing.
She tells us she doen't have to leave HK between contacts but just needs to get a visa extension until March when she will leave for her son's graduation. I didn't thnk this was the way it is legally done. Also, if she does not leave HK after finishing with her current boss, is her current boss still responsible for her ticket home when she does leave in March?
Her son graduates from college in March so she wants to be away for 2 weeks from late march to early/mid April. Also, we may be moving house in March or April and this is another reason we wanted a helper.
This will leave me with my almost 3 year old and a 6-8 week old for 2 weeks. She needs it to be 2 weeks as it will take her 3 days to travel each way (she's from the country). I feel a little as if we agreed to this too quickly. I made it clear that it would be at her own expence an it would be leave without pay as we can't give her a 2 week paid holiday after 3 months service! Is it legal for me to say this?
I'm starting to feel like we've made too many allowances for her aleady. A friend who is a long time HK res said I'm being way too soft and it's setting a bad precedent for the future. I should state what date I want her to start and that's that and I should state that no leave other than statuatory public holidays will be promised/given whilst I have an infant in the house and a husband who is away for work a lot. I don't feel I could now say no to the things I'd said yes to especialy when it's a one off celebraton like a graduation. -so it would be a go ahead or a complete stop to hiring her.
Opinions please as if I am to call her and say that we've decided it would not work with the start date/leave, I want to do it as soon as possible to be fair to her.
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Posted by Susie1 (18 days ago)
If you haven't signed any paper-work yet, you are not obliged to employ this lady.
Her last employer would be responsible for her journey only to her home, you the new prospective employer would be responsible for the cost of the journey from her home back to Hong Kong.
As your baby is due in February, your prospective helper would barely be used to you before she would want to leave to go to this graduation ceremony.
According to Imm rules she is not officially allowed any hols until the end of the first year- that is only 7 days, some prefer to add this 7 days to the 7 at the end of contract and have 2 weeks hol. then. She is allowed all the statutory chinese public hols though.
She can take unpaid leave, if you have the time to allow her off work, but as you have a a 3yr old and a young baby, plus wanting to move home I should think you are really going to need her then.
I think you have to start with a helper as you mean to go on, if you say yes then she may be asking for other times off which may be totaly inconveinient to you.
Maybe you should get some recommendations from friends about other helpers,as you have not interveiwed many.
Taking on a helper is quite a big step when you have not been used to them, all of a sudden you have a stranger living with you, getting used to their habits and cultural background is also a learning curve, sometimes an eye opener, as well as trying to train them in a way you are happy with, so choosing the right one is important, but you must always remember you are the boss be fair but firm.
Posted by cookie09 (18 days ago)
it seems you are making all the decisions here. why not ask your husband and have him state 'the rules' to her (which might be different from yours)?
Posted by adele78 (18 days ago)
Thanks for the replies you two. Cookie, the trouble with my hubby is he's even softer than me! I feel like I'm agreeing to 'be able to handle' more than I can. I think I might have to talk to my hubby tomorrow and tell him we need to tell her 'sorry' and keep interviewing.
Posted by Susie1 (18 days ago)
Hi Adele, Both you and your husband should choose your helper, and it is you who will have the most interaction with her as she will be around 24/7, so you must be totally happy with who you employ, and try and impress on your husband not to be 'so soft', it can lead to problems.
Posted by cd (17 days ago)
I don't think she's asking too much, a lot of helpers wouldn't tell you they needed the vacation until after they've signed, at least she's being honest and its a reasonable reason to want to go.
Re the holiday, the helpers are entiltled to 7 days paid holiday per year of contract, thats the minimum, you can give as much leave, paid or unpaid that you want.
Also I think its better for you to employ her earlier, starting mid jan will not give your child much time to get used to her before the new baby arrives.
Posted by Wiz Bang (17 days ago)
if you are uncomfortable (as it is already) and having doubts about signing the contract for whatever reason -- then don't
Posted by cara (17 days ago)
i was going to also say, we had our helper start 1 month before the first baby was due so that she could "settle in".... the problem? my son was one month early! there was no settling in time whatsoever.
i would suggest starting a little earlier, too.
you have to remember, she is in job negotiation just as you or your husband would be. there is nothing wrong with that.
my helper also had to go for her son's graduation 4 weeks after my second was born. it was difficult, but not impossible. my first was only 2 at the time.
you need to remember, yes, you need to be comfortable, but so does the helper if you are going to have a good working relationship. there is compromise in most situations.
if you are happy with everything else to do with the helper, i would sign her. it is not so easy to find good help. i, personally, don't think she's asking too much.
Posted by Nickki Leung (17 days ago)
Hi, Adele, i agreed with Susie and Wiz Bang. If you are not comfortable and have doubts. don't do it. It's a two years contract and the helper will be under the same roof 24/7, it takes time for both of you to understand each other, compromise with the daily living style. Did you find out how may children she has? how old? may be there will be another high school, college graduations the following year in March/April? Will you grant her the holidays to go home again?
I believe you should put your criteria as no.1 prority when you hire any helper , not the other way around.
BTW, helpers/ employees are all entitled to the statutory chinese public holidays, but for the first three months, these public holidays are with no pay under the labor law.
Posted by punter (17 days ago)
Hi Nikki, it would be very helpful to all readers of this thread if you can post in here a link to the labor law that statutory holidays are not paid during the first 3 months. Thanks.
Posted by smallfry (17 days ago)
I had to read your email twice to see what you were unhappy about. It seems that you are negotiating the starting date (she wants to start 2 weeks before you want her to start) and about an unpaid 2 week holiday she wants to take in the third month of her contract.
I don't think that you have made too many allowances already but, if you feel like this, you should discuss both these points with your helper and let her know your position. There is a big difference between having her think you are a considerate and understanding employer who, despite the difficulty appreciated her upfront honesty and made allowances to accomodate these exceptional requests and her thinking that you are a pushover because you don't let her know how you feel.
i agree with nickki leung that this conversation should also involve discussions of when her next holidays will be etc.
About the start date, she probably wants to start early because she wants the money - two weeks extra income at Christmas can make a big difference to a fdh.
If you don't want her around you could always pay her for the period but ask her to take leave (ie not live in) for the two weeks your mother is here. You could think of this cost as paying for the convenience of having her start when you want her to (rather than as payment for work she isn't doing). You would also need to work out with her whether this leave would form part of her contracted leave (or be additional and exceptional to that - this is how i would treat it).
Another alternative would be for you to ask her take this period as unpaid exceptional leave but give her a gift of a cash sum (say, half her expected salary for this period) in compensation.
If she is on leave she can legally stay elsewhere in HK (eg a boarding house). I would pay for this expense as it is being incurred for my convenience but this, again is a matter for negotiation.
As to her asking for time off 3 months in, you have plenty of time to make contingency arrangements for the 2 weeks she is away (eg part-time help, family help - maybe your mother could visit again?).
No situation is ever perfect (eg we had to wait 3 months for our helper to start) but the issues you raise look like they can be worked out to your mutual satisfaction if you both communicate openly and honestly about how you expect the relationship to work.
Posted by itsmeinhk (17 days ago)
Hello Adele,
I think if you're not sure and still hesitating or have doubts about this DH, then you can still call her and let her know about it. Just tell her as soon as possible so she can find another employer without problems.
Also, remember that you're hiring a DH to make your life easier, not more difficult !
Good luck
Posted by adele78 (17 days ago)
Thanks for the replies everyone.
There were a number of other factors in it too.
One major one is that we're in the cushy and well connected (socially for DH's) Discovery Bay and we've been upfront in the interview about wanting to move to the south coast of Lantau in April (which she was aprehensive about). She would be leaving me with a 6 week old, a 3 year old and a husband with an unpredictable travel for work schedule over the last week of March and 1st week of April when we plan to move which could leave me completely alone to deal with everything.
You can always hope for a happy and healthy baby but noone expects a colicy baby and a 3 year old who resents the sudden upheaval in their life. What's to say she wouldn't decide that a 3 year old, a newborn and a new house in an area she's not keen on wouldn't make her sign with someone else and then not give me notice or give me notice at the last moment?
She also doesn't swim or drive, worked for a chinese family for 12 years but doesn't speak any canto at all (I speak more than her that I've taught myself in less than 18 month here)
Perhaps a big factor too is that she wants to live out which will cost us $1500 a month extra as well as potentially costing us my husbands job/visa if we get caught which I'm not comfortable about.
I've just made the unpleasant phone call to her to say that I'm sorry but I felt pressured into saying yes so quickly when she called to say someone else wanted to hire her and I should act fast if I wanted her, starting in Dec doesn't suit us and I'm concerned about the extra stresses of being left to deal with a move by myself (did it when moving to HK with a 1 year old and it was not fun at all...I threw up for 5 days straight due to stress and I'm not usually like that) in April with a 6 week old who is as yet an unknown baby so we can't say whether he sleeps constantly and takes it all in his stride or if he screams for 10 hours a day as my sisters (twins) did when I was a 4 year old.
The person we're going to hire instead we didn't manage to give an interview to due to being pressured into making a decission on the spot but she's been working for my friend for the last year who is now going back to Oz at the end of Nov. I see her working around and about all the time and my friend has always said she's great. She can swim, she's interested in learning to drive (better than being scared of it!) speaks some canto, is enthusiastic about moving to south Lantau and thinks it's beautiful there and very importantly, we know her as we hired/borrowed her one night to babysit for us when we went out. She also wants to be a live in and understands that it's going to be a bit crowded for the 1st few months...she also is very happy about having all of December to spend with her 2 teenage daughters and starting with us in January. Her spoken English is spot on and there won't be any of those 'sorry, I don't understand what you mean?''s coming from me when she talks as there were when we interviewed the other lady.
I guess I'm just a softy and I have to remember that we're hiring someone to help make our lives easier and more comfortable, not someone who learns from the outset that I can be asked for pretty much anything and I'll bend over backwards to accomodate them!
Yes, babies can come early or late but my 1st came on time and my pregnany is healthy and I'm expecting this one on time too. With the one we're going for now, she's a 'known' as opposed to the other one who got my number from another helper I know around here and I have seen how great she is with little ones so I'm feeling much more at ease about it.
It wasn't worth all the stress! I need to learn to say NO a little more often and a little more forcefully sometimes! I laid awake last night for almost 2 hours stressing about it and it was the 1st thing I thought about this morning...I'm also short on about 8 fingernails if anyone has some to lend until these grow back!
I'm hopeful that the decisions I've made over the last few hours will turn out to be the right ones! Thanks to everyone for your inputs!
Posted by cara (17 days ago)
i'm glad you've made a decision. you must feel like a huge burden has been lifted from your shoulders. and that stress can't have been good for the baby or your little one either.
good luck! i hope it all works out for you!
Posted by notyou (13 days ago)
Sounds like a good plan. I think the first helper has lived in Hong Kong a long time. Asking for 2 weeks is a bit much, but then again, I send my helpers home for a week a year or even twice a year for a week, but I wouldn't love to go 2 weeks without a helper! I also don't believe it takes any Filipino helper 3 days to get home. I think she was exaggerating to get what she wanted, which was a long vacation.
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