Harbour Green vs. Long Beach

Posted by upobanij (252 days ago)

Im looking to buy for 1st time in HK. My budget is low-mid 5M's. I'm partial to the new buildings that give more of a luxury hotel feel with facilities to support. Seems i can get about 750 sq feet at either harbour green or long beach with sea view. Which of these presents the better investment opportunity? I'm leaning more towards harbour green as it seems well built, designed, and managed, but the agent showing me around seems to think long beach flat will appreciate more over the next 5 years or so, as they're closer to the water. Any opinions? Actually id be happy to hear about the 'investment quality' of flats in each of these complexes, individually. If they go for about 7k / sq foot now, where could each of these be 5 years from now - mostly i dont want to buy on something that could end up falling back to 4k / sq foot within the next few years due to over-supply, etc.

Posted by Christian_Moore (251 days ago)

The agents will always try and push a new building over a 2nd hand one because they earn far higher commission. I live right in the middle of both buildings (although leaving in Jan), I would not buy either of these places, they are far too overpriced, do you know how small a 750sqft place is by the time they take 20% off you and then fill it with useless bay windows, for $5m you can get something on HK side that really is 750sqft, the idea of a nice clubhouse sounds good but you may not use it.

SHKP makes better quality buildings but the 750size is only in the back blocks of Harbour Green and they are really tiny flats with low ceilings, not been in LB so cannot compare.

Bear in mind that these places are 7k per sqft and the 2nd hand ones in the same area are only $4,500-$5000. When I asked why the place I livied in was so cheap compared to the new ones the moronic answer from the agents is that my building is old, how can a 7 year old building be old. Bear in mind that LB has been sitting there for 4 years already

Posted by upobanij (251 days ago)

Christian - thanks for the response. The thing is the 'middle age building' syndrome seems to apply everywhere. 'New' apartments in Wanchai / Tin Hau / North Point seem to go at an even larger premium per sqft relative to 5+ year old buildings. I'm told part of the reason is that the newer buildings, particularly SHK, have a more modern design design both in room and lobby areas, etc, and you pay for this (compared to buildings from 5+ years ago, which look like buldiings from 15 years ago too as far as layout + common areas). The Harbour Green does feel a bit like a 5star hotel, which is nice.

That low ceiling comment hits a nerve with me, i cringe at the 9.4' ceilings.

The thing for me is id be knocking down walls to turn 2 bedrooms into 1, knocking down wall between toilet and bedroom, opening up kitchen, etc., to make the place liveable. Im hesitant to put that kind of renovation money into some 15 year old building which could already be falling apart.

You seem to have some insights into the market here. What would you suggest as better options given budget, minimized travel time (ie no NT), larger open living & sleeping areas (either already renovated or safe to do so), less-volatile / safer investment given prices in area, etc.

Im assuming you're at the island harbour view? What are your feelings on that place?

Posted by Christian_Moore (251 days ago)

Yes I am at island harbourview, it is ok but moving soon. Ceiling height here is 8ft 6" floor to ceiling which is not too bad, the units at HG blocks 3,5,6 were less than this for sure. bear in mind they always quote floor to floor and depending on the thickness of the flooring you could be losing at least a foot.

I have looked at almost all the new buildings in Kowloon and felt that the best building was Manhattan Hill (Mei Foo) but it's in the middle of a dump with nowhere to eat or shop, you could get a 881sqft flat there for 5M and it is laid out as such that you can knock down the walls easily and make an open kitchen. Its worth checking out, its unit G towers 3,6 and 6

Posted by upobanij (251 days ago)

Yes i was at Manhattan Hill last week, liked it alot, but the transit kills me (the 10 or so stops on the red line to hit central, then i gotta get on blue to casuseway bay where i work). I'm also worried about Mei Foo - if the HK economy turns sour id expect these areas would be the first to lose value as i dont think people that have money to buy these places want to live so far from central if there money could suddenly get them a place at silversea or the like. I could picture the same layout, the kitchen is ideally setup to make open. You can also get some great views from the 'H' apartment - Kowloon, harbour, IFC - not sure if i saw G. Is that where you bought?

If i dont stay on HK island, i have narrowed it down to one of those 2 places (harbour green or manhattan). One has location and above average building + 'ok ' rooms, other has well above average building + nice rooms but dodgy location (although that park is nice). When i was there though the 'H' at 750sq feet was going for about 5M on high floors, id expect G must be 5.5-6M at this point. If you did buy, when and for how much?

Posted by Christian_Moore (251 days ago)

I did not buy at Manhattan Hill, the flat I liked was unit B 1449sqft but the greedy people who purchased new are asking 10.5M which is far too high for Mei Foo.

I opted to move further out towards the Goldcoast where you can get a decent sized place for for less money than kowloon or HK.

Bear in mind that the kowloon west rail's extension will be open in a couple of years and you can travel from TST to Mei Foo in about 8 mins.

Posted by upobanij (251 days ago)

Another reason ive been told about island harbour view lower sqft rates is that all the sea view flats have been now blocked off by long beach, or will shortly be blocked off by the new SHKP building going up between long beach and one silver sea. Im told for high end complexes that are new or not too old, 7k / sqft is the going rate in the area; apparently those 2 front facing buildings that will still have a sea view at island hbvw also go for around 7k / sqft...

Are there new complexes in gold coast area?

Posted by Christian_Moore (250 days ago)

There are not too many new places over there. Bellagio is newish but not as far as the Gold Coast, you will get about 1100sq on a very high floor for 5M or less with full seaview.

The place I opted for is a low rise duplex with a garden, I had enough of being crammed in highrise buildings that all resemble each other, without any character at all

I agree that having the seaview at Olympic is why the price is so high but to be honest I find looking at the poluted harbour quite depressing, i have not had a clear view of HK side now for about 2 weeks.

Posted by associates (248 days ago)

First of all, there is not likely to be any over supply of apartments within 3-4 years.
The government is very careful to auction land for development in a fashion that
provides for a way for profit for developers.


Folks with a budget of 5 to 5.5 million should use their capital to buy an older
building which is more conveniently located in an area like Wanchai. Especially
if they are going to break walls down and make bedrooms bigger, an older
apartment has better useable space and will do well through a large renovation.


The real costs of renovating an old apartment to 5 star hotel level is $350 to
$400 per square foot. That is a complete rebuild; gutting and rebuilding with
high end kitchens and luxurious bathrooms.


A person who searches carefully can find older buildings with prices at or
near $2500 per square foot, and banks like DBS are keen to provide loans
of 50% or more depending on their appraised value.


Select an older building that is close to a hotel where you can get a membership
like Novotel which has a nice open air pool.


If you really want to stick to spending five million on an apartment, I'd go
with Sun Hung Kai and get the Harbour Green with their Phase One Towers
(3,5, and 6)


Asia Pacific Investments Advisors Limited
2109 Gloucester Tower
The Landmark
15 Queens Road Central
Hong Kong
Tel : 2110-1732
Fax : 3101-0837
email : info@apg-hk.com
www.apg-hk.com

Posted by upobanij (248 days ago)

Thanks for the tip. Interesting. Are there agents that actually cater to westerners looking to find some 'unpolished gem' in an old building on Hong Kong island? Are these residential complexes, or some old warehouse / commercial buildings?

My biggest concern with putting money into an old building is that it could be falling apart, plumbling a mess, etc. I also worry about resell - even if you make the inside the shangri-la, you still need to go through the lobby, elevators, hallways. Typically do well renovated apartments in decrepid buildings resell well, and at a profit (ie. more then the average sqft cost + renovation money put into it)?

Posted by oldhand (246 days ago)

would not buy, later phases will be sold at discount to lock existing owners with the property, it is a standard developer trick, I can believe people still fall for it. Nobody is making capital gain profit, many are forced to sell at a lose. No need to trust what I say, check out any recent development, and you will find first buyers stuck as developers unload the subsequent phases at discount prices, therefore the new buyers get sucked into the same trap as later phases are also sold at a discount. aka Caribbean Coast - a classic example. Never believe any agent, always bullish even in depression post 97. Check out the actual data yourself - my cents

Posted by ankle biter (245 days ago)

Couple of things to think about for old vs. new for $5M

If you buy an older apartment say 25yrs old now, and hold it for 7 years you are trying to sell a 32yr old apartment, whereas if you buy a newer one like LB or Harbour Green, it seems it will be much easier to shift an 11 or 7 year old building in later time.

Also, with older apartments there often will be major repair work that needs to be carried out some time in the not too distant future and everyday you are surrounded by niggly things that bring your 'feelings' down a bit with the deteriorated state of so many things surrounding you. Whereas, when you enter a newer place, instantly you feel it is a sanctuary from the outside greyness.

Now a days the government is keeping an eye on regulating maintenance of older buildings, do public liability prevention costs for those old buildings grow every year. I see so many old building on HK Island side that need to have their outer walls completely renovated or repaired and I can imagine those bills go straight to the apartment owners.

As for LB Vs. Harbour Green.
I would prefer Harbour Green. Seems the mgmt their are pretty responsive and the place is more 5 star/hotel like.

I went to LB to compare it to my friend's place at HG and for sure Harbour Green's apartment fit out seems much more classier than LB. LB looks kind a cheap compared to Harbour Green and so it makes LB look like they are targetting the locals, whereas Harbour Green looks totally like a westerner could stay there when ICC is built.

My friend's at Harbour Green told me, apparently owners complained to management about transport not being convenient as there were too many people competing for the buses so it would take them like 30min at the bus stops in the morning. So mgmt at HarbourGreen now provides them their own buses during peak hour from doorstep tothe MTR station for like a HK$2 a trip. I was pretty impressed with that one!! You won't get that at an older apartment complex. I guess that is also the differnce in mgmt expectations and delivery between a 25 yr old building compared to the newer places.

As for club house facilities, Harbour Green and LB pretty much have similar stuff and you do pay higher maintenance costs each month.

But I was doing the sums when my friend told me what he was paying for the monthly fee and it is like 30-40% more each month, but you would pay that difference for a gym membership each year anyways, so economically, you are pretty much looking at a breakeven. At least for me anyway, cos I would think the gym is pretty motivational when it is one minute from your place compared to having to hope over to a hotel.

Apart from that, I am considering joining my friend at Harbour Green cos I must say it does look really nice and classy from what I have seen and it is so convenient for everything on that side of town with Shenzhen so close and Central just a step the other way and ICC coming soon.

But he told me the price for his place at HarbourGreen has risen since he bought it and he is making a tidy profit. Especially as newer developments like LB come on the market and lifts his price per sq ft relative to them it seems good value. And he seems to think it has to do with the quality of SHK and mgmt at Harbour Green which will hold the place out well. And he is waiting to sell in a few more years once the West Kowloon development happens and ICC is built as it will be easy to sell or find a tenant. And he reckons the Shenzhen middle class will want to buy there because it is convenient to Shenzhen.

I am tempted to get in now. Any thoughts?

Posted by Christian_Moore (245 days ago)

Ankle Biter

It makes no sense for HG to provide a bus service to the MTR station, the MTR is only a 2 minute walk from HG through a purpose built residents overground walk way

Posted by ankle biter (245 days ago)

My friends says the shuttle bus takes the residents from 7:30am to 9am to Yau Ma Tai MTR Station directly, every 10 minutes so they don't have to compete with the locals for the public buses during peak hours. Being dropped off at YMT Station means every single MTR line and stop in HK is within your reach in a very convenient and fast time. (I just checked a map of MTR line and I can't believe it! Seems like pretty much every MTR stop for all lines is across the whole of HK is within 10-15min of YMT Station).

And I think they have a return shuttle during peak too, but I can't recall what he said for that.... But I guess getting to work reliably is the more important journey.

It is making me more tempted. If I look at between LB and HarbourGreen, I will need to wait to see if LB has staff that can talk in english.

At least at HarbourGreen my friend says he has no problem in talking to the club house staff in english!! I guess another reason for considering older HK property compared to new ones like HG. He has seen some expats at HarbourGreen and he says for sure the residents there look more middle class. The facilities when I visited him a couple of times looks well enjoyed by the residents which is much more than I can say about some of the states of facilities at some of my other friend's places at older estates on HK island side. My observation on Harbour Green is that HG seems a little cut above what I have seen elsewhere in comparison.

Posted by upobanij (245 days ago)

Actually i was at the ROYAL PENINSULA today in hung hom, another SHK propety, and seems a better deal then HG. Perhaps if the prices at HG come down 5% then it presents value, but right now with all over 7k / sqft for the higher floor flats with a view im a little skeptical if it can hold, especially post-olympics. Im hoping the Hang Seng will fall back to 26k and these owners with dollar signs in their eyes will get reasonable, and some of these HG flats that costs 5.1M 2 months ago and are now at 5.5+ will fall back again. Anyone think this is likely?

Posted by ankle biter (245 days ago)

I have not seen Royal Peninsula. Is it only price that RP seems a better deal? Is everything else in comparison roughly the same as HG? Facilties? Location? Convenience? Is Hung Hum considered as a Kowloon/Olympic type area/district or is Hung Hom considered more like only locals will venture?

The reason I ask is because if I get HG I am anticipating that West Kowloon will be developed enough in future that middle class expats and middle class HK's will dare venture to Olympic area. Whereas I can't imagine, even if West Kowloon develops, that Mongkok will be a place that non local middle class westerners will want to hang out at and make their local play ground if you know what I mean.....I have the same view of Hung Hom? Or am I mistaken in my perception? Could this be a reason why it is worth shelling a little premium to be around Olympics rather than Hung Hom? I am not a local as you can see so any comments to enlighten me will be much appreciated!!

Posted by upobanij (245 days ago)

royal peninsual is in hung hom, which is east tst area. it is not in mongkok. u may be thinking of manhattan hill, which is in mei foo. royal peninsula is 7 years old; u can still get the overall feel of a SHK building, nice lobbies, lift, entrance, the clubhouse isnt as nice, but the location is very convenient (5 minute walk to hung hom station).

Posted by ankle biter (245 days ago)

Thanks for the clarification.

I am still impressed by what I have seen of HG's club facilities' classiness. I am sure there is better on the market like at The Arch or something but I have no friends at those places to confirm.

I wonder if RP has maintained its /sq ft price in the last two years or risen or decreased? Sorrento and the like has increased or decreased?

Why do you think the market will crash and property prices will fall? I thought to buy now as HK will go up due to interest rate fall in next 18mths with USA tettering on recession but China bouying up their disposal income. And even if USA stagnants there is now such a boom in India, Middle East and Russia that China can keep their economy at 10% growth.....

Posted by upobanij (245 days ago)

If you want to see prices that apartments have sold at over the last year or so, go to www.centadata.com. There is an english button you can press, then just input the building name and wander around. For those that sold, you can see the net increase/decrease relative to the price the seller bought at.

Manhattan Hill has better facilities then HG. Honestly i prefer MH for flat layout, ceiling height, clubhouse, the only problem is that it is in Mei Foo and i work in causeway bay, and the travel kills me. I also worry about Mei Foo area in general as far as ever being able to resell the place. It seems most people who bought in Mei Foo did as investment, ive been there 3 times and always seems like nobody actually lives there. If people dont eventually buy into this place as somewhere you can live, sooner or later that will catch on and prices will fall until people that actually want to live there can afford it.

As for Hang Seng, rising 40% in a few months never makes sense. It is a bubble, and i expect tomorrow there should be a big drop given they just announced this proposal to let mainlanders buy stock in HK is going to be delayed. This is what sparked the rush in the first place. Im not sure if property prices will fall, but if buyers feel lighter in the pocket as their investments are no longer worth so much, perhaps it will eventually result in lower flat prices as less buying power or hot-heads in the market. I've heard alot recently the housing market hasn't been as hot as it currently is since 1997, which makes me nervous.

USA dont expect any more rate decreases given all the crap that's going on over there (subprime,etc). Honestly with oil price increases, the dollar going through the floor, china production costs going up, i think inflation is going to become a major problem over there in the coming months, which will make further interest rate cuts impossible. Look up the term 'stagflation'.