Posted by
elsdon
14 yrs ago
Hi everyone,
So. I did a stupid thing, I bought a flat with a renter in it. I'm not from Hong Kong, I had no idea it was such a pain in the ass.
My problem is that my tenant refuses to leave. His Tenancy Agreement was from Jan 9th 2009 - Jan 8th 2010. No continuation, no 'live' period, nothing. Just a fixed term rental.
I sent him registered mail on Dec 6th informing him that his tenancy agreement was coming to an end and that I would be taking possession of the flat again come January to live in myself..
I tried to call him for like a month and couldn't find him, I finally got a hold of him yesterday and he proceeded to tell me that he just got my letter in January.. and that he requires more time to find a place to live, and that I should give him 30 days from WHEN he read the letter, not from when I sent it.
Fine. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, I gave him a 2 week extension, told him to pay the full rent for this month and that I would calculate it back out for him along with his 2 months security deposit later.
My issue lies now is with.. I am getting a feeling like he is TOO well-versed in this game. I have heard of people playing around like this for 4-6 months and just squatting in your place and dicking with you not paying rent etc etc. I know about the Lands Tribunal, those guys take forever.. That's not an option.. If he has really NO interest in leaving the place (his rent is comparatively really cheap, signed 2 years ago.) what the hell can I do?
It seems like all the laws here are totally protective of rental tenants. As a landlord, my hands are tied. Where I'm from I can just evict him after lack of rental payment etc but it seems like in Hong Kong they can play you for months with no recourse or anything.
Any advice from landlords or tenants that have been in this situation or know this game? How can I get this guy out of my house ASAP? I don't really know if he's playing the game yet but I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered.
Thanks,
Elsdon
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The laws are totally protective of the landlord here. Your tenant has virtually zero rights. You could even have kicked your tenant out the moment you bought the place (subject to some conditions, which seem to be applicable in your situation). And the tenancy agreement's fixed term is just that; he needs to move out on 8 Jan 2010 without any prior notice. Of course that does not necessarily mean you will get him out easily. Someone else may have more experience with that.
You could play it really hard: enter your flat on 9 January and have someone help you throw out all his stuff. Change the locks, inform the security guards he is no longer the tenant. Deduct the cost of moving him out from the security deposit. I am pretty convinced the law is on YOUR side. (Disclaimer: I am not an expert).
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Hhahah that's what I thought too.. But it isn't the case. If I go in there after January 8th, 2010, I am breaking the law, apparently. It's really stupid in my opinion, but to me that is what makes sense logically.
Does anyone here have experience or know about this kind of stuff? Help! I do NOT want to live in a hotel for this month just because this dude thinks the rent is cheap!
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KrisL
14 yrs ago
You say you would be breaking the law if you go in there after January 8th?
Since the rental agreement is expired, and you are the owner, which law are you referring to?
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vak
14 yrs ago
elsdon, you are breaking the law if you barge in the house invited or uninvited, even if he has not paid the rent and the lease has expired. we had a similar experience a few years ago and the laws are surely tenant friendly. I would say get a lawyer to draft a first notice asap. usually 1st hr consultation is free anyway. take yr purchase papers and tenancy papers wt you. its hard to say anything w/o all the facts. maybe the guy has a genuine problem and will leave in the next few weeks. maybe he is trying to run out his deposit. I agree that the lands tribunal is a joke and even after getting a judgement , the enforcement is not all that easy. good luck. i feel you could cut off the utilities after consulting a solicitor. He can not get power or water w/o yr approval. I remember a friend did something similar to evict the tenant. you can block reconnection as an owner.
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Elsdon. I think it's best to keep calm and see a lawyer. Then get a judgment. Once have a judgment, I suppose you can go to the flat with a witness, someone from the management company and a locksmith. Knock on the door, phone him, SMS him and if no one answers, open the door (video record it and make sure there is a time and a date on the screen) and change the lock. make sure the locksmithputs on a very strong new lock and inform the management people that the tenant is no longer a tenant and shouldn't - under any circumstances - be allowed in the building. As for his things. Well you load them up with a witness and send them over. If you are in a village in the New Territories, though, and this guy has connections then you may have trouble.
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And try not to get emotional. This is a business and problems in business often arise. He's the one in the dead-end situation.
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I would be keen to know the end result of this
Surely he knew his tenancy was up on Jan 8th and should have made effort to contact you to negotiate an extension, surely he knew the place was bought by a new owner and anticipated his lease was not going to be renewed. He can't just assume that he can stay longer than a one year contract.
I would play tough with him if the legal process is too long winded. There are some unsavoury agencies you can contact that can twist his arm to leave for a fee
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vak
14 yrs ago
well there is always the 'leave a dead chicken on the doorstep' agencies that became infamous a few years ago for knocking at the wrong doors on behalf of Standard Chartered Bank . is the tenant local or expat and is the property in a village or is it in an appt block with a management?? If you know his work address send the legal notices at his work address. I would not worry too much yet. I feel he may have some financial problems and wants to run out his deposit which is usually 2 months. On the other side of the coin there are landlords who are unable to return the deposit untill someone else takes over their lease. As a result some tenants who have had their fingers burnt choose to avoid paying the last 2 months rent as they know very well that any litigation with lands tribunal takes 4-6 months before your case even comes up for a hearing. I guess you need to identify the problem face to face. IS his problem financial or he is just not bothered in finding a new place (in which case his rental should be up to date). Offer him his deposit refund in cash against the keys and see his response.
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elsdon, the law in hk are tenant friendly, even the agreement ends and your tenant is not paying rent, you cannot enter your own flat without your tenant agrees to it, otherwise you are breaking the law.
I'm a tenant myself, I remembered when I rent my flat 4 years ago my landlord asked for income prove, employee IDs etc etc as if I'm applying for a credit card because the law here is on the tenant side, so it is important for the landlord to choose a nice tenant to avoid situation like yours.
Unfortunately the only option you have is to find a lawyer to settle this and it could takes you few months but only a court order can kick your tenant out of your flat.
good luck!
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Elsdon
You state in your post that you have given them a two weeks extension from the beginning of Jan and today is the 10th.... at this moment you are only acting on your fears of the worst case senario but till now the tennant has shown no intentions of staying in the place or not paying you th rent that is owed.... You need to wait till the time extension that you have given them is up before you start getting het up with all the senario's that could be and maybe perhaps the person will suprise you and calmly move out once they have found a new home... remember it does take a little time to find a new place to live in HK and also maybe this tennant is working and doesn't have time 24/7 to be looking for a new place to live.... chill pill dude
I am a landlord too and think you are being a little harsh on him without any justification at the moment
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Ken A
14 yrs ago
Yes you have given him an extra couple of weeks so I would think the best thing to do is wait til then.
Sure his contract may have been from Jan 09 to Jan 10, but most places I've rented the landlord is usually open to extending the contract unless they've already sent me notice (usually 1 month).
Even if you do find a place to move into it can take over a week to move in (signing the papers, paying the deposit and arranging the move etc).
Also seems a strange contract, most leases I've signed in HK are 2 year contracts with a break allowable after 12 months only after 1 month notice from either party.
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Hi everyone. Thanks for all your responses. They are greatly appreciated. Here are the facts for those who feel that I haven't disclosed enough information for you to put your full expertise at my disposal.
The flat is in Liberte, in Lai Chi Kok. It's got proper management, no 'village people' I have to worry about and generally I feel it's fairly well managed. I wonder if there's something the management can help me with?
Sent registered mail dated in December 06, 2009 noticing him that I would NOT be renewing his tenancy agreement. Prior to this in November, He received notice that he has a new landlord, and my information to pay rent, etc. I asked if it was possible to come up and see the apartment, he asked if I would continue renting to him in January, I said no, I had purchased the flat for me and my fiancee to live in and we would need to take it back. He then responded with, ok then it's pointless for me to let you up to come see it.
Called again on January 6th, 2010 to remind him that the tenancy agreement was coming to an end, and wanted to get the logistics in order of him moving out. At this point, he proceeded to tell me that he thought I was gong to continue renting to him, that he only got my letter on that day, that he thinks I'm ridiculous for not giving him 1 month, and asked for an extension. At this point, I figured he was playing, so I was like, alright, I don't want to tip him off or anger him, so I would give him a 2 week extension.
I am completely calm and rational person. I do realize that I'm late coming to the game here in Hong Kong. I'm unfamiliar with the terrain, the tricks, the possible avenues he has. You could say I'm being paranoid, but I work purely off my instincts and gut, and he gives me a bad feeling. I am just trying to do now what I should have done months ago and bring my game up by doing my homework and due diligence. I just want to be prepared for anything he can and might throw at me. Most importantly, I need to figure out what my most potent weapons are.
I will of course, wait until the time I had set out with him. But up until then, I want to try and attain as much knowledge or experience others have had because apparently it's not that uncommon of a problem.
Thanks again everyone.
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I did not give any advice, and I even included a disclaimer. On forums like these you must never rely on comments and advice to be the truth, even if I say it! ;-)
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Eldson, why dont you call to the Goverment office for the housing tenancy and listen what she can give you advise.
Here I give you the name Ms. Lau - tenancy officer , phone 2150 8588.
She is very helpfull and wise.
Free of charge.
Good luck.
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Check this out - this is very helpful.
Note however, you will be breaching tenant rights should you evict the tenant without getting a court order first - this is VERY important.
http://www.rvd.gov.hk/en/doc/SummaryGuide-e.pdf
Unless the tenant has a secondary home you are NOT allowed to evit them.
You need to apply to the Disctric Court for a fast track application to get court approved bailiffs to remove the tenant - note that this is only possible if the rateable value is less than $100,000.
hope that helps
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Christ. This is ridiculous.
So I've called everybody, (Ms. Lau retired but one of her colleagues helped me out.), Lawyers, etc.. Everyone says I should go to Lands Tribunal but expect to take 2-3 months at the VERY least. I'm unable to cut his utilities because that is harassment and would make me liable for legal revenge.. I cannot change the locks.. I cannot even enter the flat without the tenant's approval, even though the rental period is over, even though the flat is mine, etc etc.
I don't understand what kind of logic or case occurred here in Hong Kong to cause such a majestic blunder in law and I can't think of any reason why it would be in place but to encourage rental tenants to play around. I can't press charges for trespassing or squatting or anything remotely close to that.
I basically have no avenues of attack. I just have to sit and wait him out and settle it privately, or wait 2-6 months (depending on speed) and let the Lands Tribunal settle it. Why it takes 2-6 months, I have no idea.
So, for future reference, anyone that has a similar problem to mine. Basically, bend over and brace for impact, because short of hiring an enforcer to extort your tenant's signature on the Premises Possession forms, you can't do jack.
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District Court is your best option - its a fast track process, as opposed to Lands Tribunal. Try this avenue.
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Hi Steve,
I'm still looking at MONTHS though not DAYS or WEEKS?
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I have to say that this is really not on
I understand the law may say you can not throw him out but if Feb 9th comes by and still no money from him, he deserves to be chucked out by force. He would be clearly taking advantage and by the law allowing him to do this just encourages it. What's to stop the rest of us just deciding that after a couple of months into a one year lease we can't be bothered paying rent anymore.
And guess what, once he's legally out and he owes you at least 6 months rent do you think you will see any of it ?, I doubt it. At least at that time you could use the collection agencies to hound him down once you get a small claims court settlement. You need to make sure he does not owe you more than $50,000
I assume you know where he works
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Re. your last question...
We've just increased the rent and the tenant has decided to move out. It's pretty much a case of 'like it or lump it'.
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Hey Christian,
Yeah, I don't plan on going after him for any of that as long as he is reasonable, I will be as well. Small claims court, man whatever, that seems like a bigger waste of my time than anything else. I do know where he works, sort of? He owns his own company. I have the previous address (from when he signed the Tenancy Agreement) but I don't think he's there anymore. I sort of want to spend the money and run a background check on him just to see if he's got any record of doing this before.
"I am interested to know what a Tennant can do if the landlord increases the Rent on contract renewal and you refuse the increase."
This is what I don't get. Why would anyone think the tenant even has ANY obligatory right to continue renting? I mean, if the lease/tenancy agreement is EXPIRED, a tenant and landlord should have pretty much NO affiliation anymore, correct?
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Elsdon. Sounds typical kind of defaulter. If he has his company, he will probably know all the financial shenanigans. I know you bought with tenancy but it's always best to rent to someone who is employed locally and best to check out the tenant beforehand (ie by getting the company's phone number from directory enquiries and googling their name/Facebook).
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I'm not so sure why you guys are getting the impression that I'm going ballistic, haha. I'm completely calm and rational at the moment, I'm just trying to cover all my bases and be prudent. I think there's merit in that.
In any case. I'll see you guys in a week or so to post an update on the situation. I feel like I'm well-equipped enough now to deal with what he may throw at me, if anything at all.
Cheers,
Elsdon
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correct me if i'm wrong.
the tenant can continue to stay at the apartment as long as the monthly rent is paid, even if the lease has expired.
the landlord can ask the tenant to leave the appartment (see below), but must give 12 months notice.
1. planning to live in the apartment.
2. planning to sell the apartment.
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Moreover, in fixed-term tenancy agreements there is actually no obligation legally to send a 1-month notice that you may or may not continue renting to the tenant.
There are tenancy agreements/leases which have 'live'/'dead' periods of time, where renegotiation is possible and those are a grey area. But, in a fixed-term tenancy ie. January 1st 2009 - January 1st 2010, with no other 'variable' period stipulated, it's pretty cut and dry.
Also, 12 month notice is insane, haha. That is clearly not realistic nor anywhere near the truth.
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As soon as the contract ends, you can take over the place but since you have extended it for another 2 weeks and if he didn't move. Simply lock the flat with heavy chain, get a letter from any lawyer ( which costs you $800 to $1000 only ) and post it outside the flat, I bet you he will call you immediately and that's the time for you not to answer hten.
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Your best option will be to go straight to the lands tribunal and file for an injunction which will give you the right to reclaim your flat within 14 days. No, they don't take like forever as you said. In fact they are quite prompt. If you tanent fails to move out on or b/4 the stipulated date, the baliff will come and chuck him out. No worries!!!
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so if the lease has expired, can you not draw up a new lease, raise the rent, say 100%, and see if he accepts? Then when he likely does not, have grounds to evict him?
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Just to clarify a small point: back in the old days, pre-2004 perhaps, a landlord was required to issue a TTN 12 months in advance in order to get rid of a tenant. But that was changed years ago and only applies to leases signed before then. So if you ever come across the term "TTN" (12 month notice thing...) then it only applies for years ago...
I'm also interested to hear the outcome! Good luck.
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paul chan,
14 days? Have you experienced response times this quickly personally? Everyone I've spoken to.. lawyers, real estate agents, police officers.. they're all talking months. You've managed to get it done in 2 weeks?
funbobby, actually I have no obligation to rent to him anymore, nor does he have any grounds to renegotiate. I don't have to jack rent on him, I don't even have to offer him a new lease agreement, I can already 'evict' him but in Hong Kong it takes forever. (or so I was told.)
Slammy, yeah I also read about the TTN's and how especially in cases such as mine (fixed-term tenancy agreement) that I don't need such a TTN at all. It's in some government .pdf I read concerning Tenant and Landlord agreements.
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so...any updates?
has the tenant packed up and left yet?
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merm
14 yrs ago
I think you're a paranoid landlord. And your tenant is probably the one paying your mortgage.
Most tenancy agreements last 2 years and are renewable so your tenant probably never expected to have to move out. Most landlords don't want their tenants to move. I wouldn't have counted on having a home right away on arrival - it really takes time to find the right flat whether to live in for just for a year or two or to buy.
So far the tenant does not owe you any money. If the tenancy agreement ends in early jan and there's 2 months' deposit, the tenant can stay till early march. If you act as if he was occupying your flat illegally when in fact he has the right to stay there according to not only the tenancy agreement but also HK laws, then you're not helping yourself at all.
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kashn
14 yrs ago
Sorry merm but you're wrong. The security deposit is there for the landlord to keep if there is any damage to the apartment/appliances after the tenant leaves. This does not allow them to stay an extra 2 months.
It is irrelevant whether the tenant is paying the mortgage. This is the owners investment and it is up to him who lives in it, how long they live in, within the contractual time of the lease. The lease has expired. End of story.
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haha if merm took the time to actually read before they posted, I've given the tenant well over 30 days to find a place, officially. Off the record, I told him way back in October that I would be moving in in January and would not be renewing his lease agreement.
Sure, he was paying my mortgage, but I was paying rent somewhere else, paying somebody else's mortgage while he was sitting in my house. I don't see how it's relevant, but it pretty much makes your point moot. Moreover, the fact that his rental agreement is from the Financial Tsunami era, his rent was super cheap relative to today's market anyway. So technically, he in fact, was only paying for about half of my mortgage. =)
Regardless, after much negotiation and giving the tenant time to deliberate, it seemed the best/only route was the nice route. I just started throwing offers at him. So, I gave him back all of his security deposit despite some abnormal (aka. not wear and tear) damage, I gave him the couch, mattresses, sofa and the dining room table, and didn't charge him for the extra 2 week 'extension'.
Long story short, what a pain in the ass. The 'official' or legal route would have taken months, as I had submitted that already and it took them 2 weeks to even ACKNOWLEDGE that I had submitted a request at all haha. I don't know if there were any better routes, but I just did what worked for me. Caveat emptor.
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Topol
14 yrs ago
So he's now moved out. Correct?
Well done.
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Well done. Always best to keep your cool and remain on good terms if possible.
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NAME HIM and shame him.
Tell him you will do that, HERE on this thread, if he fails to move out as agreed.
A guy who takes advantage of such a loophole, should suffer some consequences
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I know this is old. But what would have happened if you had entered into possesion changed the locks and removed all his items? What recourse to action would he have? Legal, in terms of your unnauthoruzed entry? How long woul have that taken for him to drag it through? What a joke. Let's face it the system persecutes the innocent. I would not have been as calm as you.
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Wow.
That was a quick response.
You guys must really be "on the ball"
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At most, you only need an agent to locate tenants. For management once your tenant is in, you only need to have the number for a local handyman who can deal with leaky windows, broken appliances etc. Much much cheaper than paying an agent to manage the property and very limited hassle.
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If you can afford to buy a house in Hong Kong at the moment, you are obviously a wealthy guy. Lucky you! You are one of an increasingly small fortunate minority. Try to feel some sympathy for your tenant, who is now being thrown out of his home, and will have to pay a much higher rent. It's damn hard to find decent accommodation at a reasonable price these days. Be patient and give him some time to move. You can afford to rent while your tenant finds a place to live. 30 days is a pretty short time to find a new place to live and organise moving, especially since he probably has a full time job. Pretty soon he will have to leave his home and you can enjoy it, be patient.
BTW way, it is illegal to evict a tenant without a court order or to harass a tenant to leave by intimidation or by cutting off water and electricity. This is a criminal offence punishable by up to one year in jail.
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