Posted by
expatmover
15 yrs ago
Hi all - was hoping to get some advice.
I have been renting an apartment, which was new when I moved in, for about 16 months. I handed over the keys to the agent who was to inspect the apartment and let the owner know the condition. My notice was per the lease agreement, so I have not breached the agreement in any way.
I was surprised to hear from the owner that he will be keeping 25,000 of my 42.000 rental deposit to cover "damage" in the apartment. When I asked what the damage was, all he could tell me was it needed to be repainted and the wall where I had a LCD TV installed needed to be fixed.
I obviously told him he was kidding and that painting was normal wear and tear. Even if he wanted to paint the apt and fix the wall where the TV was, it would not cost him more than 7,000 or so.
I am not sure what my options are and would really appreciate some advice on this.
Thanks in advance.
Please support our advertisers:
Sounds like bull to me.
Do you still have key or is it totally vacant now and you dont have access ?.
Please support our advertisers:
Threaten to take him to the small claims court. Worked for me.
Please support our advertisers:
Small claims court will not take years, but it can be a hassle. At least you don't have to cover the other party's legal costs if you lose. I'd suggest you also ask any lawyer friends or post your question on the legal forum here.
But for future reference, insist on doing the final expection with the agent and the landlord, rather than letting them tell you what "damage" there is after you've handed back the keys. Also take readings of all your meters, even better if you can take a dated photo. Saves arguing over final bills later.
Good luck with getting your deposit back.
Please support our advertisers:
i dislike that approach. i prefer to pay the last 2 months and ask for the return of the deposit. OK, i nearly got burnt by that ex-landlord, but fortunately the threat of going to court made him think twice about messing around.
Please support our advertisers:
wcman
15 yrs ago
Sounds like the the landlord is screwing you over. I don't pay my rent for the last few months of my tenancy. I don't know if this is legal or not but I've been sodemised before by a past landlord and I rather not be buggered again. I've no experience with the small claims court but I've heard it takes a while before you get your doh back. Still you can try and play mind games with the guy by that approach. Did you take photos when you left?
Please support our advertisers:
The landlord is screwing you over.
First mistake was to hand the keys to the estate agent.
The best thing to do is to arrange to hand back the flat two days early, and to
inspect the flat at the same time as landlord. When he gives you the cheque
for the full amount, then you hand over the keys. If he doesn't give the cheque,
hold onto the keys.
I would fight this on a two pronged approach:
1) give your estate agent hell. GET HIM TO WORK FOR YOU.
Threaten to take him to Estate Agents Authority because he
is supposed to work for you as well.
2) Go to the small claims. It is easy to do. The staff are helpful.
Avoid the lawyers..it will put you more out of pocket.
When you go to small claims, you file a piece of paper (very
easy) and the hearing is set one month later, and the matter
is solved on the day.
3) You could try put a legal charge on his property so that he can't
sell it
4) Get several quotes on how much it would cost to fix the wall.
Your landlord is taking you for the ride. However, if you did fix
a TV to the wall, you should have fixed it first to avoid the hassle.
Please support our advertisers:
ldavy
15 yrs ago
cougar88, just for the record, I don't think the property agent is supposed to be working for expatmover, unless expatmover is paying him. Sounds to me like the agent is working for the landlord, and inspected the flat on the landlord's behalf. I don't think reporting him to the Estate Agents Authority will do any good at all.
Please support our advertisers:
Agree with Cougar88 on way to deal with this; Sorry Lloyd Grossman IMV, but if you don't want any trace that somone was in your place, don't rent it out. Hanging pictures and other wall mounted appliances should be expected and it costs almost nothing to repair the holes. Don't tell me landlords in HK aren't making good returns, (except those that bought in the last year or so, I'll admit).
Too many landlords expect to charge high rents and don't want to do even the tiniest amount of work for it. Some really do have unrealistic expectations.
Please support our advertisers:
umh... i rented 3 apt in HK in last 3 years ... so i never had any of these problems and landlord always returned the deposit to the last cent , i don't want exagerate but almost i get the hug when i left ...
I did drill the walls .. i made lots of holes to install tv , paints and so many other things and of course the apt needed to redecorate after i left , it is very normal that the walls get dirty with such a polluted city!!!
anyway i truly believe that depends on people , the one you are dealing with is the bad one.
i think the agent has to respond for this too because if u hired him at the very beginning u have been paying him the commission too!!
yes i am agree with cougar 88 , definetely!
Please support our advertisers:
You are absolutely being screwed over. This happened with me. I met with my landlord and threatened him in person as I turned up with my lawyer (a friend of mine who gave him her card). We both scared the **** out of him and said we weren't leaving until he transferred the money. Threatening is the only way because he already thinks he can get away with it. It's absolutely not OK to hold onto that kind of deposit and he would have definitely had it painted anyway, that's what happens here. Don't put up with it, you have rights.
Please support our advertisers:
ldavy> if the OP signed with the estate agent (as you typically do when you first get them to show you flats) and then paid the 6% commission after signing the lease, that agent better bend over backwards to help him; he is DEFINITELY working for the tenant;
Please support our advertisers:
Please support our advertisers:
sorry...half month commission (not sure where 6 came from lol!)
Please support our advertisers:
i guess I've been lucky then to deal with agents who appreciate me putting food on their table (along with every other customer they help)...every one of them has arranged my bills (opening and closing), keys, repairs etc and any issues I may have had with regard to my rights has been dealt with effectively by them. I'm sure there are agents who take the cash and run, but I haven't had the misfortune of meeting one yet
Please support our advertisers:
ldavy
15 yrs ago
Thank you funbobby, it's so nice to hear someone say something positive about estate agents! In my company we always open all the utilities accounts and generally help with everything. Even after a tenant has been living in the flat for a few months, we will do our best to help with any problems. It gets very disheartening always reading negative comments.
Please support our advertisers:
IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Did you cash in the cheque that he gave you?
If so, you may well be screwed because it can be intepreted as you accepting that you agree to him keeping the rest of the deposit.
Do you know if he has repaired it yet ?
What you could do is get your friends to call up the agent who dealt with you, and express their interested in renting in the building. Then they can take pictures for you.
I am sure the agent will be jumping through hoops for you.
Or you could go to the apartment, wait in the lobby, call the police and landlord will have to show himself and explain. he may change his tune
So what have you done?
Please support our advertisers:
Big mistake handling out the key without getting your money back.
basic principle is to make a fuss, cause them so much legitimate trouble to get your money back.
from personal experiences, real estate agents can be one of the most untrustworthy persons.
i. get the key back if possible, saying you want to fix your yourself.
ii. go to the estate agency, stand there refusing to leave, speak loud if need be, demand that the agent should help you to get the deposit back.
iii. threaten to file compliance to the Real Estate agency headquarter and the authority that regulate the estate agent.
iv. arrange a meeting with the owner, if he refuses to pay you back, just call the police NO MATTER WHAT, the purpose is to make a fuss and cause them trouble.
v. Definitely threatened to go to Small Claim Tribunal. it is not a court, so there is no need to worry about getting lawyers or incomprehensible procedures involved, very easy procedures. There is a specific standard form just a few pages thick specifically for getting security deposit back and very easy to fill out (you can download a sample form at justice department site at small claim tribunal link). best to fill out the form and show it to them, can put the joint defendant names there as the real estate agent and landlord.
Probably you won't need to go through the whole process of small claim track, as they see that you are not one of those easily ripped off expat, they probably will give in and pay back the money you well deserved.
seen too many locals ripping off expat too much, still and eye-opener that a landlord can without such big sum for the normal wear and tear that is totally legitimate under a lease.
Please support our advertisers:
http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/forms/sc_sampleform.htm
click "Refund of Rental Deposit"
Please support our advertisers:
Hi all, thanks for your replies and great advice.
The communication with the landlord has been verbal so far - he has not handed me a cheque to date. Anyways, after reading all your replies, i contacted the landlord again through the agent and asked for his address and told him I was sending the landlord a letter from my lawyer. I also told him to expect some communication from the small claims tribunal. The landlord has obviously panicked and offered to negotiate. I told him i did not want to and i would rather do it through the appropriate channels.
And then, as I expected and as a number of you mentioned, I got a few calls from the agent saying that the landlord will return my deposit less HKD10000 to save everybody the hassle. He said the landlord will "share the cost of fixing the apartment". What a joke!
In any case, I have accepted this as i could not be bothered going through the hassle taking it further for a few thousand bucks (although i am sure I would have been successful in this). As I had said, the painting etc would have cost around 7000 in any case.
But great advice for everyone - I should not have given the keys back before i got the deposit back. Also, I should have taken photos . I think the very best advice of all is not to pay the last two months rent - this way you have nothing to lose (although this is not too fair on the landlord, so i guess this depends on your relationship with the landlord).
Thanks again for all your help - it is much appreciated!
Please support our advertisers:
Please support our advertisers:
10,000 for a few holes of the TV mount?!
yes, don't do it for the 10,000, do it for it is the right thing to do.
that landlord is probably doing such constantly to tenants because the tenants are too easily ripped off.
just go fill out the form in Small Claim Tribunal, it is easier than you think.
or just say that you prefer to have the tribunal to decide on the sum and will go to the tribunal soon, they will probably return you the sum before you know it.
Don't let the nasty landlord takes the benefit.
Please support our advertisers:
Tribunal if you feel any unfairness is falling upon you. I ran into this my first lease and I really put the screws to the landlord to the point I thought he was going to pay me to leave. I basically told him if he didnt get me a MONEY ORDER or CASHIERS CHEQUE there would be no keys coming, a copy of the tribunal form and the consequences he would face.
He folded like a cheap suit!
Since then I negotiate everything carefully in the contract where we see 15 pages docs turn into 3 pages. I look for good landlords only. I also get a written letter from the landlord showing a walk through of premises and sign off along with the secure deposit return before the keys even appear for return.
Please support our advertisers:
Please post his address, name and the agent's name so that nobody will rent his flat or use this agent? or fall onto their traps.... A kindness act for future victim to black list this place...
Please support our advertisers:
take your full sum back, not a dime less.
don't do it for the money, do it for social service and justice sake.
Please support our advertisers:
Before taking any action to recover your rental deposit, please read the tenancy agreement carefully to make sure there is no relevant provision to enable the Landlord to make such deduction.
If the Landlord had such right to make such deduction, he still had to prove his damage (e.g. invoice, receipt and survey report, etc.).
However, you may take action at the Small Claim Tribunal against the Landlaord (a claim under HK$50,000).
We would require much more detailed information to provide a reasoned view; we would be pleased to attend to your needs on your matter and suggest you contact our office to arrange an initial meeting with our Mr. Weir and our fee charge for an initial meeting is HK$2,500.
Weir & Associates
Solicitors & Notaries
16th Floor Tak Shing House
Theatre Lane
20 Des Voeux Road Central
Central
Hong Kong
Tel : 2526-1767
Fax : 2868-3568
email : weirlaw@hongkonglaw.com
www.HongKongLaw.com/weirlaw
Please support our advertisers:
Beerboy - If someone gives you a cheque, then bounces it, you can sue that person for breach of contract under the Bills of Exchange Ordinance. If the cheque is for more than HKD10,000, you can then write to them with a Statutory Demand and if they do not pay within 21 days you can commence winding up proceedings against them. The laws are there: it is just a case of knowing them and then using them to the fullest potential. If your incident was only three years ago, you can still sue. Best of luck!
Please support our advertisers:
After less than a year, we had to break lease when my husband's company withdrew from HK. We found a replacement tenant who paid 53% more than our lease so the landlord should have been ecstatic. On the day we vacated, the landlord's representative came over for the walk through, took pictures, and said everything was fine. However they ended up withholding $7,000 for a repaint job due to marks left by 3 pictures on walls. Flat was spotless as we were rarely in HK.
In this case, we couldn't just not pay the last two months rent and it was the company's deposit anyway. However, my husband's company ended up trying to deduct the $7,000 from his last paycheck. Yes, I know we could have sued the landlord or the company but neither live in Hong Kong. These people count on the fact that you are so busy scrambling to find another place to live and new job that you will just let it drop.
Since many people will be in this break lease situation in the coming future, I hope they read my post and learn to get a signed confirmation that their vacating flat has no damage and stipulate the exact amount of the deposit to be returned and by what date. Do not hand over the keys otherwise.
Please support our advertisers:
maxis
15 yrs ago
In my opinion and experience, use the two step (i) confusion and (ii) embarassment technique.
There is a very strong likelihood that either the police or your agent/landlord will not speak English very well, especially under stress and agitation.
Speak loudly in their shop, or in the lobby of the building if they are an owner - as public as possible and know some Canto (insults about their property, not telling you the truth etc) to get them wound up and angry, and embarassed.
Be careful not to overdo it (unless you are a strong guy and quite confident), as you don't knom what someone's breaking point will be if you lose them face - they can go absolutely psycho.
Bring up all sorts of issue about paint and walls, whatever, the plumbing - talk fast and loud confuse them. Contradict them, tell them they said something and something else but te otgher way around.
Then start your demands, tell them they stole from you and they are breaking the law, and then start to call the police.
They will either at this point agree, negotiate, or call your bluff.
If they call your bluff, when you are waiting for the police (and throughout the "negotiation") pick up things on their counter/desk, fiddle with their pens and those little calandars they have -it agitates them and that is what you want as when the police come it'll have to be in English.
Forget the legal techniques you used in your own countries, residential tenency boards, arbitration etc - HK property is law of the jungle and you need to assert your own rights.
Must remember, not all HK landlords and estate agents are sniveling rats, but many are (I have had my fair share, as have most) and the law aint going to help you.
Thing you have to remember is that most HK agents are both Agent to landlord and tennant, as well as earning a commission based fee from the transaction - how this can be considered a "normal" table to come to in legal and practical terms is anyone's guess.
Some agents only act for the tennant, and are not locked into the property "stock" their company has listed. If you locate a good one of those ones then stick with them.
Some will agree to work on a fixed fee basis, now that takes all the ambiguity of personal interst out of the equation, especially when working for both sides.
Please support our advertisers:
maxis
15 yrs ago
Loyd Grossman, if either party perceives violence could occur then it is criminal. Actually any disturbance becomes a police matter, New territories or otherwise.
You use your brain and your skills at the right time and appropriately, and you will not be a walking ATM for others.
Personally, I do not scam my tennants.
However if I decided to try it on and implement even some of the property owner techniques I have observed in HK over the years (we all know at least some of them them, let's not be coy), then I would be suprised if a savvy tennant had a go at out foxing me.
Please support our advertisers:
You must be logged in to be able to reply.
Login now
Copy Link
Facebook
Gmail
Mail