Posted by
wkotze
15 yrs ago
I vacated the property and made an appointment with the landlord to hand over the property. The landlord did an inspection and had issues with marks on the wooden floor. His agent and I are of the opinion that it is normal wear and tear, he disagreed and is now insisting that I repair the floors.
Has anyone had this problem? Is there something like a tribunal or a small claims court one can approach without running up legal fees unnecessarily?
Thanks.
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request for your deposit if you cannot get it go to smal claims tribunal they will settle this for you or refer you to a higher court.
just a note. this has happend to me also and the owner / landlord is laible for repairs of normal wear and tear.
this should help you...unless you were really digging holes in your floor to look for buried treasures.! lol
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if the damage is very little its part of your landlord to repair it. you may try to settle the problem with small claim tribunal. they may help you.
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[UPDATE] Please note that fee quotes stated in historic postings may be out-of-date.
In this dispute over damage to property, you might wish to advise the landlord to lodge an application at the Lands Tribunal or in some case the Small Claims Court in Hong Kong if the claim involves HK$50,000 or less.
The procedures involved to file a claim at the Small Claims Court are rather straightforward and the costs required are modest. Detailed information about the procedures and costs involved is available at http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/sc.htm#1. As lawyers are not allowed to represent a client in the Small Claims Court, the legal fees expected, if any, will be low.
Alternatively, if the landlord applies to the Lands Tribunal for possession or for ejectment under the Landlord and Tenant (Consolidation) Ordinance (Cap.7), the Lands Tribunal may then adjudicate the case for the payment of damages in respect of any breach of a condition of the tenancy (Lands Tribunal Ordinance (Cap.17)). However, it should be noted that a party may appear and be heard personally or by counsel or a solicitor or by any other person allowed by leave of the Tribunal to appear instead of that party. Therefore, the legal fee required here might be higher.
Weir & Associates
Solicitors & Notaries
16th Floor Tak Shing House
Theatre Lane
20 Des Voeux Road Central
Central
Hong Kong
Tel : 2526-1767
Fax : 2868-3568
email : weirlaw@weirandassociates.com
www.weirandassociates.com/weirlaw
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This is on a totally different note. What is the security deposit in Hongkong really for? Should the rent be delayed, isn't what the security deposit is for? Can the landlord verbally tell the tenant to vacate the flat asap and not give back the deposit?
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Are lawyers/solicitors allowed to advertise in HK? Or on here?
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What is considered fair wear and tear? Scratches on the floor boards? Wall discoloration due to the humid weather and scratch marks ?Holes up on the ceiling where the light fixtures were?
My landlord has kept my deposit (18K) for 3 months and he wants me to replace the entire floor of the apartment because of some scratch marks on his wooden floor boards.
I told him to get stuffed, and it is now with the small claims tribunal. We went for the first hearing, and have another hearing set for nov. I returned the apartment is tenant able condition to him. Sure, over the course of 15 months, the walls got a bit dirty, and when we were moving out, the removal people made some scratch marks onto the floor, accidentally.
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Hi Lee-Lo-Mei
Please keep us up to date as the case continues.
Your case sounds very similar to mine. The landlord also wanted to withhold my deposit to replace the floors for what I deemed as fair wear and tear. After considerable resistance he deducted $2000 for "fixing" in stead of replacing the floors. I still felt robbed, but left it there because the amount was too small to justify any further action. Incidentally, the floor was never fixed up before the next tenant moved in!
Hope you win.
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Update on the case:
I went for the second court case 3 weeks ago, and here is how it went:
the landlord and I went up to the small claims tribunal and the case was heard in front of the judge. He went over all the evidence and told us to go and sort it out ourselves!!!
He outlined the worse case scenario for the both of us: spending huge bucks on legal fees just to claim back a small amount of money.
As the claimant, I would have to hire a contractor and get a professional survey of the apartment floor and determine if the scratches were from wear and tear or carelessness. Either way, I would have to make some kind of repairs to the floor, according to the judge.
The judge also told the landlord that it is unreasonable for him to expect me to replace his entire floor, and that they would have to hire a surveyor and get a report to determine if replacing the entire floor was the only option.
The judge mentioned that the landlord would have to accept the repairs that I made unless it was proven that it couldn't be done.
In the end, we came to an agreement. He would pay me back one months rent and the case was closed.
It has been 3 weeks, and I still haven't received my money. I will go to the small claims tribunal tomorrow to see if it has even been paid.
As has been mentioned before, there is jacksh*t I could do if they refuse to pay. I could engage the services of a Baillif, but they still cannot make him pay. There is nothing the court will do to make them pay.
If they do not pay, my plan is to go to the police and charge them for theft and turn it into a criminal case.
Hope you all can benefit from my experience with the small claims tribunal.
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Last week I had an incident where my landlord got her real estate agent to undertake the handover of flat on her behalf. In the absence of authority letter from her to give the keys to the agent, I refused. Since it was a saturday, on Monday afternoon, finally a fax to the agent and I handover the key. She deducted 2 days of rent from my deposit bond as I refused to return the keys in the absence of her authority letter. Now this is just pure robbery. I am thinking of going after her in the small claims tribunal. Hong Kong Govt should set up a rental bond board like Aust to protect the tenant and stop the landlord using all kind of excuses to deduct the bond.
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I'm a landlord and a tenant and I think things need to be tightened up all round. I agree with the rental bond board because some idiot landlords just go for broke and what they do amounts to theft. On the other side, you get tenants who bring in pets - even though prohibitied under the tenancy - and do thousands of dollars of damage. It would be good for reasonable landlords and tenants to come together and work out a scheme where non-payment of rent and refusal to move out are quickly sorted out and where the onus is on the landlord to prove damage in order for rental deposits to be taken. If non-payment and refusal to move out are handled quickly, there is no real need for a deposit in most cases. As usual, the idiots make life difficult for everyone.
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It is VERY common practice for Hong Kong Landlords to not return deposits to tenants. I would always advise taking photographs of every room before moving in and then taking photographs upon vacating. Personally, and I know its illegal, but I always refuse to pay the last two months rent. Landlords scream and get upset, but if they want their flat back in liveable order, they'll comply.
Ten years ago I took a landlord to court after not receiving my deposit back. She claimed all sorts of damage had been caused to the floor (she was actually a lawyer; a failed one), but I had taken photographs upon vacating the property, and the small claims court awarded me all costs. However, going down this route can take months and months, and if expatriates are leaving Hong Kong at short notice, then there is no chance of retrieving the deposit. This is why tenants are not refunded the deposit.
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Wow, I am so shocked that this is so common in HK and furious that there's nothing to protect us tenants. My previous landlord Lorea (she's a user here at asia xpat) has the record (and i have the emails to prove) of giving utmost hassle to return peoples deposit, which she never returns in full or at all. I didn't want to believe the rumours. But guess what? She's doing the same to me now. I wish I hadn't pay the last 2mos deposit but as a landlord once (not in HK) I just think it's downright wrong. In my case Lorea has kept over HK11k of my money. So all we can do is spread the word to make sure more people don't fall into the scheme of dishonest/abusive landlords. Lee-Lo-Mei case and others above just prove that we have no way to reinforce what it's right. And my advice: stay away from any sort of business transaction with Lorea unless you're ready for some major headache.
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The landlord holds last month rent and a security deposit. What can happen if the tenant does not pay for the second last month on the lease and offers that the rent deposit be used? How quickly can a landlord acquire and issue an eviction notice? We are leaving HK at the end of July (our last month) and are considering withholding rent payment in June, as our landlord has been very difficult in our four years with him. We simply don't trust him to return the deposit.
Thank you for your consideration,
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don't pay the last 2 months.... simple.
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eviction takes months, so just dont pay the last two months
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I've learned my lesson too. Don't pay for the last 2 months. Our last landlord wanted to do a repaint on the ceiling because there is 1 dot! Returned our deposit at the end coz I called my lawyer friend in front of him.
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Can any lawyer out there help us out? I mean is it really true that as tenants we are subjected to dishonest landlords' free will to just keep our money as they see fit? And is there a 'law' that says they have 3/4/5+ months to return deposits?
I am shocked. In all the 15+ years that I've been renting (all over the world: USA, South America and HK) I had never had such bad experience. But now... it's happening here w/ a private landlord. So my resource is... Share the experience and warn others. I'll make it as public as possible.
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vak
14 yrs ago
we have been tenants and landlords so seen both sides of the story. our tenants were an expat family and had a genuine cash flow problem so we agreed on adjusting the last months rental and refunding the one month with a post date cheque if nothing was damaged (fair wear and tear accepted). The problem is definition of fair wear and tear.
As a tenant if you are waiting for your deposit and can not recover it , the process may take months and wear you out. Generally s[peaking there are more landlords who can not refund the deposit than tenants who do damage the property with 2 months rent worth of damages. So here are the warnings for tenants. DO NOT DO AUTOPAY payments. Adjust the last 2 months. The due process for the landlord is to go through a lands tribunal if he choses to sue you. He can not break into your house. The process takes over 6 months for the 1st hearing.
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TWICE in Singapore, landlords tried to rip me off: The first one got away with it, as I never thought the young couple would try to cheat me. When I was leaving, I had not only cleaned the flat myself -- I then got a filipina amah to come and clean it, TOO. But they still docked more than half of my deposit, as they claimed they had had to call in "professional" cleaners after I had left.
In other words, some landlords just see the "deposit" as another way to make money out of you -- many have no intention of returning all (or indeed any) of it, if they can figure out an excuse why they don't have to. And you will find it wastes too much time and energy to argue with them. (In Singapore, it is even worse: the Small Claims Tribunal has NO jurisdiction in Landlord-Tenant disputes, so if you disagree, you are stuffed.)
In Singapore, being "Once bitten, twice shy", I determined not to pay the last two months of my next's landlord's rental -- and didn't. But he still appeared on the last day with a stack of bills for things that had broken down (like the fridge and TV) which of course HE was entirely responsible for, and demanded, "What about all these bills?"
"They're YOUR responsibility!" I said -- and stalked out. With all the deposit by then used up, he had absolutely no lien on me. Fortunately I had learned from my first "nice" young couple -- while the second landlord had been tricky from the very start, with clauses in the original agreement that we had agreed to delete, mysteriously re-appearing again in the second or third version of the printout, as each clause was modified after agreement. Blaming "the computer", he obviously hoped I wouldn't notice!
Being a landlord myself, I am disgusted that I "get it coming and going" -- in the UK I have to provide so much for my tenants, while my lousy landlord here in HK won't even agree to pay for a water filter, as the tap water is often RED with rust -- simply because he is so cheap he won't pay for new water pipes into the flat. Landlords here seem to think that they aren't required to do ANYTHING for their rental -- all they have to do is to "take the money and run".
In fact, I had to wait THREE WEEKS in the middle of summer when I first moved in, for the landlord to fix new, and WORKING aircons. Yet, even though I suffered the misery of a non-air conditioned flat, and even though a BARRISTER informed me I could deduct a fair amount (just $1,500) from the rent for the inconvenience -- the judge in the Lands Tribunal, wherein he originally tried to evict me (!), ordered me to "cough up" -- or get out.
Needless to say, I won't be paying my last two month's rent later this year. Even though I understand it CAN take only six WEEKS (not six months as someone here incorrectly reported) to evict a tenant. But any judge would probably give you a couple of weeks to move out... so you should still be "home and dry". Till the NEXT lousy landlord....
Still, it has to be said, my last landlord here (for six years) was actually pretty good -- so of course not all landlords are bad....
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Huh, MY landlord CLAIMED he was a "lawyer", and, not having met him (the agent ferried the signed tenancy agreement over to him) I believed him. But in the Lands Tribunal where he tried to evict me (if I didn't pay up the money deducted for his non-working air-cons) he was sworn to tell the truth, and so had to admit that he wasn't a lawyer -- and further claimed that he had never said that!
I think all these "bad examples" are just reinforcing the cynical view that the ONLY way to protect YOURSELF from rapacious landlords is to avoid paying the last two months of your rent -- or simply BUY your own flat!
As for "damage" to the flat, normal wear and tear IS of course acceptable -- everywhere in the world. But WHO is to define "normal wear and tear"? Obviously the landlord, even if he is only "uncharitable", will claim anything LESS than his "pristine" flat, is not normal -- even though, part of the money at least that you have been paying for the past year, or two, is also to REIMBURSE him for the use of his flat -- which MUST have some depreciation! In other words, (some) landlords are idiots, and simply don't know the law, or even what is common sense -- as long as there is a chance to make MONEY out of it!
I therefore think that another respondent's idea of photographing every floor, wall, ceiling and fixture in the flat you are newly moving in to, makes a lot of sense! It may be quite a hassle, especially having to keep the pix on your hard disk for a couple of years -- but my god that is EVIDENCE. And then of course, photographing everything all over again, once you are in the final throes of moving out -- at least the points that might suffer contention.
Mind you, that is even MORE of a hassle, since moving out is stressful enough. Yet, it might just save you even GREATER hassles with someone who is basically either dishonest, or simply an idiot (or both!).
Because at least in Hong Kong (unlike Singapore), I believe you can still sue your previous landlord in the Small Claims Tribunal -- because what evidence will HE have?? And of course, you can sue not only for your deposit, but also for your costs. If enough people did this, there would be far less crooked landlords "trying it" with our deposits....
As regards returning ex-pats, it would seem the only option is to not pay the last two months rent (ie. using up your deposit) -- which of course is "illegal".
Of course, I am only mentioning this because you shouldn't do it.....
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aamariott, just dont pay anything extra
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Hi PizaAce,
We have gone through the same experience with our landlord. He held back a whole month of security deposit, with claims that we had damaged his walls, flooring and sofa. Other than minor marks, and paint coming off due to humidity, there has been no wear and tear in the house. He had been aware of all of these way before the end of tenancy and also about his stained sofa that he had passed to us as part of the furnished apartment contract. All that while he did not raise any concern over these wear and tear, but on the day of the handover simply refused to give us the deposit. We are fighting a case in the small claims tribunal. But reading the feedback here, it seems outcomes could be dissapointing. I wanted ask you, what exactly did you mean by "lien" and the "baliff" options in your message.
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PLEASE READ THIS, COULD SAVE YOU MONEY.
I also had stains/marks on my walls and no matter how much cleaning we did, we also couldnt get them out.
I just learned something and have tried this
Astonish Oven and Cookware Cleaner. You can get it from the UK removes virtually all marks from the wall. I've bought 2 samples during the fair at Convention as the guy was demonstrating. And now my walls are totally clean. It doesn't matter if it is new marks or old marks.
For solid wood floors (not laminates), you can use a sander or sandpaper, sand it to the point where it is flat. Then revarnish it. (All these can be bought cheaply in your hardware store)
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I had the same experience but I dont know whether I would go to a small tribunal to contest the Landlord's claim and have my deposit back. I dont know if I would be needing a lawyer to file a complaint or case with the small tribunal.
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&&&
13 yrs ago
To be fair, I honestly don't think Weir Associates is advertising here. I am not a friend nor client. But having read thru all these complaints, I am glad they gave the info.
Weir gave the info that it is quite simple to file the complaint ourselves.
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Most landlords will reurn deposits but many with dirty tactics eg.delay, deductions, excuses, disappearance,even filing bankcrupcy, just not to return money.
All idiots will have much bigger problems after that. Yes, you can take tenant or lanlord to small claim court, but they'll only ask you to renegotiate.
Unfortuately, HKG people spend fortune showing off on the road driving luxury cars ( to whom are they showing off), behind they all do dirty tricks to swindle dollars & cents. I've seen many men having luxury cars wearing socks with holes, stealing parking lots at home since nobody will say " Wow, you own such an expensive parking lot".
All their goals in life is showing off with the money they make by threatening others. We have to get a good agents who can help you through during the tenancy period, not just signing taking commission and never know you till you sign another contract. Most agents are too busy making stories bwn buyers and sellers or landlords & tenants, one'll ever know if they are telling the truth.
Read the tenancy agreement carefully, each tenancy agreement can be different from generic agreement.
Make sure both tenant & lanlords are easy to contact always, if anyone hiding email add or refusing contact, Do not sign with them at all.
Some strange people are antagonistic to others with no reason. Avoid these.
And all communication printed during tenancy in case of dispute.
I strongly believe tenants or landlords do a willful harm to each other must be criminalzed, therefore there should be a surveyor who checks flat condition when letting and vacating who can decide impartially appointed by government or or realtor.
In this regard, HKG property agents is merely an irresponsible introducer, if dealing with docements is their job, anyone can do it, it's time for a profession to make sure that tenant & landlords do their job properly. There should a separate person
to do the investgtion job.
That's why HKG landlord is known to be greedy, HKG tenants are know to be messy, all behve like runaways.
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I am in a similar problem with our landlord. I did a handover of the property indicating all the wear and tear in the apartment. After a few days we get an email saying that he will be charging us $20,000 for the repair of all the damages in the flat. Which were actually wear and tear. We did agree to pay $3000 for some damages just to settle it and get our money back.
He just returned our deposit and deducted the $20,000 from it.
What should we do? Should we file a case at the small tribunal? This is the first time we have encountered this.
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all landlords are snakes trust me , call the police and tell him u will go to court , the normal wear and tear is not ur problem , tell him u will go to the court if he does not give ur dep back and ask him to be specific what damage has been done...don't leave him...
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Hi There,
It takes more than 6 months for a landlord to get an eviction notice, I too am having huge hassles with my landlord, he will not return my deposit, no claims or anything he just will not return and thinks this is OK, so if I was you I would not pay the last two months or you may find yourself in a similar situation. The problem is that everything is Pro Landlord and tenants have very little to no rights.
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Hi
Regarding the evicton notice, our contract states that if the rent is in arrears for 15 days it's legal for the landlord to forfeit the tenancy agreement and re-enter the property - does anyone know how this would fit in as by the sounds of our contract no eviction notice is necessary? Unfortunately we have had nothing but problems with the landlord to date so are already anticipating problems with getting our deposit back - the landlord has 3 months deposit which is really starting to worry me now....
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Hi all,
Does anybody know a lawyer who handle these issues? I already left HK and thus am unable to make a claim at the Small Claims Tribunal. My landlord is refusing to refund my deposit and is not replying to emails/answering my calls so at this point.
Also, I did a quick search on gohome.com.hk and the flat that I rented is still on the market. Would it be okay to write a bad review warning potential tenants?
Thanks!
(Recently moved back to the US)
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I just move out last week and my landlord did an inspection and returned my two months deposit by post dated cheque. Today, she informed me that I need to return the cheque as she needs to deduct the one month deposit as they need to repaint their flats wall. What will I do? If I won't return the cheque and have it encash on the given date, will i be facing civil charges? I believe that what we left in the flat is a normal wear and tear.
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If anyone is experiencing Landlord problems then please email me for assistance. I have personal experience in this area and Tenants do have rights. If you are leaving Hong Kong then I can continue your claim after you leave, if required. If you have a genuine claim then I will help you. This is not a free service however it's better than the Landlord taking all your money. Email: krp899@yahoo.com
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I've been here for 10 years and most of my landlords have been really good. I did have one though which put me in a similar situation to what you are in. He wanted to keep the security deposit but there was no damage at all.
I told him very clearly that if he did not refund the security deposit I will use a water pistol to squirt petrol under the door, then ignite it so that his apartment either burns down or at least has substantial damage. The good thing about this is that people who play dodgy games like this never want to get the police involved, and even if he did there's nothing he can tell them because there's no evidence of anything. He transferred the money to my account around an hour later.
Raise the stakes, HK landlords don't want trouble and will fold every time.
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Jilo
8 yrs ago
Deposit vs. "official receipt" (tax deduction)
My lease is ending soon and as any other expat renting in HK I'm worried about the "deposit to be returned" issue;
the landlady (mainland China) always complaining when to pay for whatever in her responsibility - something in the bathroom (she made a terrible deal with a con plumber so me being so naive, I felt so sorry for her I even offer to cover half of the costs)
or the airco (we also chip in).
Now is the gas stove in the kitchen - the towngas came in a week ago, checked, sealed the stove and turn off the gas valve - "too dangerous" the guy said. Put him through with the real estate agent, he informed the landlady - and no news. The agent says "landlady not happy, rent too small"!
I read about tenants daring to do not pay the rent for the last to months of the lease since that equal the deposit.
But if you don't pay you don't get the prove of payment; so you don't have the "official receipt" proving that you paid the rent and also the amount you have paid as rent
- the one you get it from the landlord every month and use it at you work for tax deduction?
Or maybe the proof of paying the deposit in the first place can be used instead?
Thank you,
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