Posted by
OAshanghai
14 yrs ago
I am a concerned parent of a child in an international school. I think it is important to say I am Australian and an early childhood educator with a firm belief that children learn through play and investigation. Even children as big as my 9 year old. We moved to HK about 4 months ago, and had 4 years in a Chinese international school with no homework woes there.
For two nights in a row my child has been shut in her room doing homework for at least two hours, not getting to bed until 9.30. They have a homework policy - sorry i have misplaced the paper but I am sure it is 45 minutes for Chinese plus 45 minutes for English.
If the homework were relevant and enjoyable things may be different. But it is not. It is not interactive - just desk work with paper and work sheets. This is every day, but then, they assign projects to work on on top of this! The projects are great but there is no time to do them!
Dont forget the 'reading' task which is an every day "reading" activity assigned for child to read for at least 15 then write a paragraph about what she has read. Now my daughter reads like a maniac. she finished the whole Charlie Bone series of 7 books in less than 3 weeks. But now, with the writing task thrown in, she doesn't want to read any more, nor does she have time. it is as though it is killing her love of reading for the pure enjoyment of it. Besides this, it is ignoring the fact that my daughter is a brilliant performer, cant she orally speak about her reading?
Here is my ideal homework situation:
Child comes home excited about the great day they had learning, excitedly tells me about some interesting and relevant tasks the teacher has set such as wake up early to look at the night sky with family to see a commit in our earths atmosphere, practice times tables as my daughter is not yet "fluent" in tables and needs work, recites Chinese and writes some sentences knowing the teacher will use the sentences in class in a meaningful way - or as part of an ongoing writing project made fun - not just lines written for the heck of it! She gets to read before her bedtime for as long as she likes.
I know, a long rant. I just want some advice from other expat mums out there. I am hesitant to go and say anything to the teachers as they will think I want them to give my child special treatment but honestly - every child in every class deserves special treatment...that is what all good teachers know.
Advice please!
grumpy mum
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The system has been set and the school believes it's working. Do you want to change it? Can you change it?
A more workable solution may be to find a more suitable school for your child.
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I'm Australian, I never did my homework for most of my primary unless it seemed important to me, and in High School only if it was assessable. Why is that so bad?
After school I played with friends on the street, down in the creek, in the park, cricket, climbing trees, building a tree house, even sleep in the tree at night, a flying fox, went surfing after school often and windsurfing. Read what I liked, read the encyclopedia by myself because I enjoyed reading it, enjoyed learning in my own way.
Does it make me lazy or dumb? I don't think so, I was having a good time while these kids are enslaved to learning for what purpose, to be the *best* then to have to compete to the top in the corporate world to be enslaved to a company and their a merit system of money until they reach 60 and have a heart attack.
*Happy* kids without a human life enslaved to information.
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AKKY
14 yrs ago
is so unfortunate that local school in hk are like this. I when through the hk system for a few years and I hated it.....teacher forcing us to remember the times table else our hands will get smack with a ruler (this was allow at the time....) and homework homework homework! even my mum felt it was too much and she did help me a little hahhaha. I hate hk school!! Then we went to Australia and I remember I never really had any homework till high school (and that wasnt much). I used to love going to primary school (ie kinder to yr6), love the teacher and friends there....cant we have one like that in hk?
why all the homework does it make us more clever? dont think so....I still got my master degree! at 25yr old hhahahha long time ago .......
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Which International school is your kid in? Some are better with homework than others. I know a 10 yr old with 2.5 hrs of homework every night plus projects on weekends that attends an Int'l school in HK.
The problem is there are many at-home mothers in his school who have nothing better to do than their kid's homework, so if you don't keep up with the other kids (who are drilled more at home so do beter in class) then it is seen as a negative.
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Jams
14 yrs ago
Better change to an ESF school.
They use your system of education
Jams
Hong Kong based
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Most (all?) ESF schools are now on the IB, not British - anyway, as you say, OP is in Shanghai, so not an issue.
"i've found, after almost 15 years, teaching in hong kong that the chinese mentality is this:
if my kids don't have enough homework, the teacher isn't doing their job.
the western mentality is this:
if my child has too much homework, the teacher isn't doing their job..."
-so true! Last year our ESF primary school did a big homework survey & asked if we wanted more or less or the same amount. They also asked age of kids & ethnic background- well, they have never told us the results, but I think we can guess the demographics... anyway, this year we are bogged down, though not as badly as the OP's poor kid, and worst of all -without telling the parents- they've gone in for "peer marking" - the kids checking each others' homework! Nice cop out for the teachers. These kids spend half the day in other classes - Mandarin, music, PE - and the teachers tell us they don't have time to mark the homework! So why are they setting it??
Our weekends are sometimes lost to homework hell- in primary school!
Sorry, had to rant!
Yes, have spoken to the school.... one teacher is receptive, so we'll see...
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"ummmm.... the original poster is in shanghai... don't think ESF exists up there...."
cara, business must be good! the OP also said "We moved to HK about 4 months ago, and had 4 years in a Chinese international school with no homework woes there."
Not knocking you, I know just missed!
Homework is good if it is something that adds to a sense of responsibility and individuality. But it has to be said that most of the homework here is pretty much worthless. I'm with everyone who says let kids be kids. Let them enjoy life, learn and have fun. They'll grow up with more than an education - although I know this is the wrong site to be saying this on - just look at the Marriage and Relationships section (kinda like school when I was 9)!
One great eye opener for me in Asia was years ago working in a Design and Engineering consultancy. We'd be able to hire western grad immediately and once we'd opened their eyes to their expected sense of entitlement they'd work great. To hire locally would mean 3 or 4 years of conditioning, meaning to stop them actually working from the "manual".
As an owner now of such a company - as well as others - and working closely with local Uni's such as CU is does sadden me to see this not changing. As a father here it saddens me even more and means I have to work twice as hard at home as we don't have the school system to back up the parenting.
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cd
14 yrs ago
I had this issue to when my kids were at GSIS, more than 2 hours of homeowrk a night a 6/7 years old.
I am definititly with Cara on the mentality of westerners. I pay for my kids to go to school here, thats where they should be taught, not me at home.
I don't think my kids primary (ESF) gives too much homework, and its usually set once a fortnight, so they have 10 days to complete it in, half the stuff they must do, half the stuff they can do. The think I have an issue with is that a lot of the stuff they set seems to need a lot of parent input. I just don't have a couple of hours a night (between 2 primary kids) to sit down and watch and help with every thing they do, what with afterschool activities, cooking dinner etc. Sometimes we don't finish it all, but so far don't seem to have suffered much backlash.
Have you actually approached the school and asked them why they feel so much is necessary.
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"However, when it comes to education the locals can kick our backsides."
I think you have mistaken "education" for rote learning, i.e. memorising with no idea what they are memorising for.
As for engineering, please read above. A real quality engineer who can think, solve root cause issues and be creative will only get D's here because he knows how to do, not just what to remember from some out of date text book. The flip side for him is he will go to a quality company and get on straight away and be 3 or 4 years ahead of any locally educated "straight A" engineer.
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cd
14 yrs ago
Agree, thats why there are still so many expats working for a certain airline here, as the engineers can think out of the box, and can troubleshoot a problem, where many Chinese engineers can only solve it if the problem goes wrong by the book.
There is more to learning then memorising from a book and remembering dates and figures.
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Can we please stop with the generalisations? It doesn't help anyone.
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Philly - I think you are not quite understanding what is being said. Let me put this into perspective. Myself and I know cara and Loyd all have kids who are mixed western / chinese and we live here, not here on expat working packages, etc. Education is important to us all, especially when we are trying to work with and balance the upbringing to suit 2 cultures and languages.
I've been involved in education here and know exactly what the situation is. There are no generalisations just cold hard facts. There are some fantastic local schools, Elegantia in Sheung Shui for example is one of the best secondaries there is in HK, all classes co-taught, etc but it is the exception to the rule. Unfortunately education is what it is in HK because people will just use the excuse that others are generalising and wont actually do a thing about making it better. That's just the way it is.
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Folks, please I really don't think you can say one system is better than another, without the context of the large macroeconomic needs of the country. In the 60s and 70s we said the same about the Japanese and Korean educational systems, but that is exactly what was needed for the country. Afterwards, when they got good at the product copying craft, those economies went to innovation and I think you are hard put to say Japan and Korea are not innovative and not high tech.
For me, a local HK Chinese educated here through high school and then university in the US with 25 years in a high tech industry and back here to build an R & D center in greater China, I can safely say my ideal candidate is someone who has the fundamentals of a local educated person plus the free thinking mentality of the US university graduate. The best of both worlds.
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I send my 2 kids to a the only EMI government school in hongkong and they always get lots of homework.. but I don't force the kids to do the homework.. so long as they learn the basics, the times table, read, write and social skills, damn the exams.. stuff them.. they're still children, what do exams and hours and hours and hours of studying do for them when they're only 6 and 10 years old... we spend the weekends on the beach and they watch tv and play together outside... and you know what.. they get F in exams.. so what..
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so why stress yourself on exam results.. If you go back to UK or Aus. then your child will be streamed into their year group and off they go.. when I was growing up in the 70s we didn't get any homework from school... it was about ( being able to ) read write do the times table and learn some social skills.. and of course they will get into secondary school..wot kind of scare tactics is that.. throw an 11 year old on the street..see ya later.. I don't think so
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EvilDeeds - I understand where you are going but talking about the capability of an engineer just because they're Chinese or Chinese-educated is a generalisation that has nothing to do with the topic which is homework.
Playing devil's advocate here - maybe a western Uni-educated, local person is better not because their western uni is better but because they were forced to become more independent, assiilate to outside culture and generally have a bigger sense of adventure by going away to school.
My own feeling on homework - there has to be some learning by rote because there is no better way to learn (eg spelling, mult tables, chemistry table, Chinese vocab and writing). Learning this way also forces discipline, which many children need. That is why I don't mind that way of learning for primary school kids. As they get older rote learning should be supplemented with applied learning.
One other thing to consider - the Op mentioned int'l schools - many of these teach in two languages and kids are expected to process info well in 2 languages. When I went to school we learned in English but were expected to take one other language as well (in my case French). But the second language was much less intensive than in HK int'l school ... and that is one reason why I think the homework is more here.
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Bimmerfan - I agree with a lot of what you have to say, however you cannot compare the education in HK then and now.
Philly Cheese - I'm not talking Chinese, I'm talking Hong Kong. I make that point now as the next paragraph touches on what Bimmerfan has mentioned as well.
(And the reasons why this is digressing slightly is that the subject of homework is part of a greater issue - I like to look at root causes and subsequent problems especially when I know that bit piece fixes or even discussions will not address the greater issue).
Bimmerfan mentions opening and R&D centre in mainland China - I've both been part of a large operation opening in HK and China a few years ago as well as my own companies a couple of years later. I also worked in both Japan and Korea many years ago, helping the then R&D in Korea. So very aware of the capabilities and the eventual results. And there is a difference between the mainland and HK. On the mainland, although the main learning is rote they are also taught to ask questions, to be inquisitive. A trait they share with both the Japanese and Koreans. This is not the same in HK. Even when you look at language. In HK for English now most people will shy away from it, never even try and speak when they have the chance (compare this with adults in their 30's/40's here). In China they'd be trying to talk to you in the street just to practice, exactly how they did in the early 90's in Korea. This is a direct result of the education system - and homework is part of that system.
Good luck to Bimmerman on the R&D, we only do R&D on the mainland now and it's a good place to be now.
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Evildeeds -- interesting reading your points and I have somewhat different observations. Actually I have R & D people in HK and mainland as well. The staff in HK will challenge me, push me and would not just do as I say, unlike the staff in the mainland. In informational meetings, the HK staff are the ones to raise hands and ask questions in public, much more than in the mainland (I conduct these meetings in Mandarin on the mainland and English in HK because I also have non-Chinese staff as well). Actually, that is indicative of why a lot of multinational companies have no problem recruiting "normal" technical staff in China, but have to import HK staff to be the middle management or even upper management layer.
Somewhere earlier, someone brought up the point of needing to be grounded in the basics. I cannot agree more. My experience with my US staff is that a lot of engineers think freely, but when it comes to execution, they lack the discipline and the basic "feel" for technical data that helps them really refine and get the most out of their ideas. Hence my assertion that the best combo is a student with solid basics and then free thinking. Balance is everything.
One analogy to make is sports. Football players are drilled right from the a young age on ball dribbling and handling, then they broaden out to team play, strategy and so on. The drills are for them to get the basic feel for the ball without which they just will not succeed, however fast they are or however good they are at being the open man or organizing an attack. You need both.
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Giles - 'the only EMI government school in HK'? There is more than one EMI government school here, I'm sure.
As a secondary school teacher and NET, 'too much homework' exists because the majority of parents want 'more homework' for their children. If we could all have a backyard, a pool, quiet streets to ride bikes on and grass to do cartwheels and handstands, I wouldn't want my kids to be stuck in their rooms doing homework either. In HK, parents believe that if kids aren't engaged with something 'productive' like homework or projects, they'll be on Facebook, MSN, playing Wii, etc. Nine out of ten parents complain about this on Parents Day. There is a lot more easily accessible entertainment nowadays than when I was at school (I only had TV and a telephone).
It's best to be able to strike a balance - easier said that done. I know for a fact I don't give my students as much HW as some of my counterparts. I don't make them do 'composition corrections'; I'd prefer that they write me a journal. I don't make them do 'newspaper cuttings' every week if I know I can't mark and return it to them the following week so I ask them to watch the news on Pearl and do a short oral report the next day. Does that make me a 'lazy' teacher? That one is up to the parent's to decide.
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Me again!
I am somewhat overwhelmed by this massive response. But, as a teacher myself, dont have time to gather my thoughts to respond as I really want to. I will try my best.
I can see two paradigms here, teacher directed learning versus a child centered, inquiry approach. What annoys me is that so many international schools (in Shanghai at least) promote and say they support holistic education that gives students the opportunity to solve problems and take some control over their own learning. Unfortunately the school leadership is constrained by the parents and 'old habits', meaning the so called holistic education is just on paper and promotional material. Attach a few pictures of children in front of a plant with a magnifying glass and there you have it - a school that promotes inquiry! But behind closed doors this is far from the truth. Perhaps this is not so in Hong Kong but if you look at school websites and their Philosophy etc, you may find otherwise.
The comment that made me react the most was the person who replied that it is not normal for children to be happy about school. I want to ask everyone reading here who had a teacher - even if it was just one - that inspired you, and you probably remember them to this day and carry with you the messages they instilled in you. What was it about them that you remember? Did you go home happy and excited about learning when they were your teacher? I had some of these. Having said this, i understand that putting your child in a school is often hit and miss with teachers. A good one this year and a lazy disorganised teacher the next. Or a teacher that sees your child's talent one year and one that is annoyed by your child the next. BUT...this is where finding a school that at least promotes a philosophy that you believe in can give a hint of what the teachers are being encouraged to work with. The school my daughter is at encourages the kind of education I believe in...but i dont quite see that being put into practice.
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Posted by Loyd Grossman is Miss Venezuela (2 hrs ago)
[And by the way, I'm a former teacher.]
I am glad i wasnt in your class! There is no way a teacher can prepare individual tasks. You clearly have no idea about the "other way" of teaching. I do however as i was there once, handing out work sheets to the whole class who sat at desks. Did planning accross a grade level and enforced strict discipline and used canters happy face chart to bribe chidlren into being good. But now I have gone over to the other side - engaging these young chidlren and inspiring them to learn, really knowing every individual in my class - I CAN NEVER GO BACK. You are right syaing that all chidlren are born to inquire - but it is up to educators to engage this creatively. Your example Mr Frank Wittle was likely inspired at some stage by a wonderful teacher or lecturer who believed in him.
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To get back to the OP which was a complaint about how much time the child was spending on homework. If the school police is 45 minutes a night - or whatever it is - the the child spends that amount of time on it. If it takes longer then that is not your problem or your childs.
Write a note on the work saying '45 minutes work'
If the teachers are being unrealistic about how much time their students need then they need to rethink the amount given. Perhaps they have never really considered this or have not paid attention to their own policy?
Homework is a terrible thing in primary school and it causes stress to family life. Play and time with the family is much more important.
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I want to ask everyone reading here who had a teacher - even if it was just one - that inspired you, and you probably remember them to this day and carry with you the messages they instilled in you. What was it about them that you remember? Did you go home happy and excited about learning when they were your teacher?
-yes, I did, when I was 11 or 12. I remember that he made us LAUGH & nobody mucked about & we all paid attention cos if you weren't listening you might miss a joke & being the only 11 year old not laughing is no fun. Quite a feat, getting 35 kids to pay attention day in, day out. My brother and I had a drink with this same teacher a few years ago & my brother amazed us with his total recall of everything he was every taught by this guy- but as we told "Sir" - it was fun, we wanted to hear more!
Everyone should have an inspirational teacher at least once in their life. Especially one who can punctuation fun.
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Hi there,
I didn't read all the messages posted, but could not help but to share... my daughter previously went to an ESF. Talking about just last year so I don't think the system has changed that much.. She loved the school, and she loved her teachers. She never had a homework, but as she was so excited about what she learnt in that day every day, she always spent a lot of time doing a similar project (created by herself) at home without anyone asking her to do it. I had to even ask her to stop... as she was always making story books, researching on information about various countries and doing experiments for ages... She never did these as "work" or nor was she even aware that she was learning by doing those... Recently, we changed her school as we wanted her to learn Japanese (which is my mother tongue). Perhaps not as much as HK local schools, but Japanese schools also do have a homework... My daughter stopped doing all the creative stuff she used to do on her own. Now we need to pressure her to do her homework... I was quite upset about this for months as I felt I was taking away the joy of learning from her... but then as someone mentioned earlier, learning languages like Japanese or Chinese does require repeated practices... there is really no other way to go around it... We've been trying to make it as much fun as possible... we ask her to teach Japanese writing to my partner (who is not Japanese)... we try to make games out of maths... but yes, it's often hard to make them fun. SMy daugher definately has much less time to read books than when she used to be at the ESF also... She's becoming a real bilingual at this moment (i.e. her Japanese is catching up) so we do not have any regret over the change of her school. But I do agree that it's such a challenge for parents to keep leraning fun...
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