Anyone Experience Discrimination by Hong Kong Courts Eastern Magistrates?

Hi, I won't go into the long long detail now, but to make a long story short. I am American and have lived in China/HK 9 years. I received a simple parking ticket several months ago to which I tried to pay the $320 by check. My husband owns, but I drive the car. I sent in a check that written words said "three hundred" and numbers said $320, so basically I never knew until I got a late notice to pay $1120. So on the advice of a Cantonese friend who called the court to ask what to do, I wrote a letter explaining what had happened and re-issued the check written properly. The next the I receive from the court is a notice to appear in court on a Tuesday at 2:30 pm. I work full time and have 3 children. I was not happy. All for a $320 parking ticket. I wrote back to them that I would rather just pay the late fees than to have to lose half days pay and travel to the court which is a long distance from my work just to discuss this issue. Again, declined. I also tried to call several times and to no avail. I only got, a uh,uh as reply. No one ever understood what I was trying to say. They would just say. "Because you need to appear at court on this day". So, what happened today is the most appalling and egregious thing that has ever happened to me in HK and I am going to seek some sort of legal complaint against this court and judge, but I am starting here because I cannot sleep tonight without notifying as many expats and others that are in my same situation as possible that may understand. I went to the court at my scheduled time at 2:30. I had all my documentation, all the letters and faxes from the court. I also had a fax I sent to the court stating that I was the driver of the car, and not my husband and I had the courts faxed reply. To start, I noticed the judge was very rude to the very first defendant who spoke only in English and the judge spoke only in Cantonese. I did not understand this. The judge was very very rude to each person. And then a French man was called and he was very nervous and it was also about simple traffic fines. The judge was so rude to him and crudely asked about his English though the judges nor any of the bailiffs or court clerks English was that great. I felt very sorry for the French man. Therefore I was really trying to maintain my composure and keep myself from seeing the obvious discrimination and contempt this judge felt toward non-Cantonese speaking people. Plus, he was just very arrogant and pompous all around. So when this judge called my case, I decided to just go and state the facts. But as soon as I stood up. He said " Are you "D.. K....." ?( who is my husband). I said "No, but I have a fax here that I sent last week to tell the court that I was driving the car when the parking ticket was received and I have the faxed reply from the court. The judge said "We have only one paper here and it is a summons for your husband, why are you here??" I said "Sir, I have a stack of documents here going back and forth between the court for months. Do you mean you summoned me to court today and you do not have anything? I asked the office downstairs and they said they would send up the file. Can you please review these documents I have so that I may pay this fine and settle this simple matter?" He said "No, you are not your husband, I will schedule the case to be reviewed again in 6 weeks and he can come". I said "Sir, that means then he has to lose a half day work, and I half lost a half day work, plus hours of faxing and writing just to explain this and begging to just pay the overdue fines to avoid coming in the court, this is not fair, I will have to get an attorney to settle this because this is not justifiable". Then he yelled at me (and I am a petite blonde, he is a big bald man) "Are you threatening the COURT!!" I said"Only that I will have to get an attorney, as this is ridiculous and has been going on for months". Then he called for the court to be closed and the police to detain me! I just sat there quietly and silently in shock!! Then I asked a young girl bailiff, "What is going on"? She just kept saying "Wait". So, anyway, after a long time and a lot of police interference I finally agreed to go back into the court. The judge then came back out and said "Do you apologize to the court?" And I said for what? And he said again "Do you apologize to the court for what you said? And I said " I am sorry, I don't know what I said to apologize for?" And then he said something in Cantonese and all these police came running in and then he said " I am placing you under arrest for criminal misconduct under the DOJ and you are ordered to go outside with the police and give your statement." I then came unglued and said "I know my rights and you cannot arrest me without an attorney, I did nothing wrong, I did nothing wrong, all I did was come here to pay a traffic ticket!! What did I do?? I want to call my attorney! Then the judge got very nervous. He started looking around. I said, I will call my attorney and he will take my statement and your statement but these police cannot arrest me with out him present. I was so upset I was shaking but I did not let myself cry. I have never been arrested in my life and I am a mother and 40 years old. It was so demeaning and horrific. The police even physical;y pushing me around a lot and I said they can't do that and I got their names and repeated them out loud and they finally let me go. Does anyone know how I can report this to the right authorities or do I just need to get an attorney? I am so shaken up, I never ever ever expected educated people in a supposedly civilized country to act this way. But it did and I am still in complete shock. Please give me any advice you can. I did nothing at all wrong. I have been bullied and completely discriminated against for the first time in my life and I cannot let this go without the people responsible being held accountable because I do not want it to happen to anyone else again. Thank you if you read all of this and thank you if you can help me. K

The first thing you need is to calm down yourself. In the first place, I think this is the issue of mis-communication between you and the court. To tackle this issue in the fastest manner, you may consider to get a lawyer, attorney or barrister to represent you.


I understand you are upset and get frustrated. Honestly, you are not handling well in this situation. Probably you speak very fast during the entire communication, next time you may consider speaking slowly. No matter how bad their english competencies, speaking in a slow manner to those people will earn you space and credits. Noticing their reactions may grant you more space to think and act more wisely. I think they are a bit ignorant, arrogant in some sense, though you must stay calm. What did your husband say?


I do think this is a small issue, sincerely hope it won't be getting too complex. Have a nice day!

actually this is just a perfect example why people should get a lawyer when they go to court. i am no lawyer but i can see so many things wrong with your statement above (and I am conscious that this is your version of the events, so who knows what else really happened):

- your summons asked for your husband to show up and you show up instead? why would you think any court in any country accepts that? did you have a written confirmation from the court before the day that you can represent your husband instead?

- "Sir, that means then he has to lose a half day work, and I half lost a half day work, plus hours of faxing and writing just to explain this and begging to just pay the overdue fines to avoid coming in the court, this is not fair, I will have to get an attorney to settle this because this is not justifiable". again this does sound threatening to the court even in my views. yes, we could be reasonable but you are not talking with a freaking shop assistant, you are talking to a judge. bad move...

- you didn't apologize after the judge asked you? again bad move


i could go on and on. i am an expat and i can honestly say that I think you should think about your position for a bit longer before making any rush moves. and get an attorney for sure, since you are in deep troubles as far as i can tell

Jenny,

Save yourself some money, don't bother getting a lawyer unless you actually do get charged with an offence. It sounds like you were very lucky not to get arrested and charged on the day. You cannot go to court and speak to judges/magistrates like that. He may have been rude in his demeanour, but that is his prerogative. He's not there to be nice to people, he's there to do his job. You weren't even the person summoned to appear in court, so he couldn't proceed with doing his job. It might have been inconvenient for you to take a day half a day off work, but you were the one who made a mistake with the cheque in the first place. Sorry. Oh, and by the way, not sure about the States (I'm assuming that's where you're from), but in HK you can and do get arrested without your lawyer present.

Let's face it: behind the facade of a cosmopolitan city, HK is a very provincial place. I'm speaking as an ethnic Chinese who makes home both in New York City and Hong Kong. The irony is that you get better services in HK if you speak good/decent English when the majority of government employees (at least ones I've encountered) speak only rudimentary English. I attribute that to the colonial legacy some HKers are still proud of.

Sorry to hear of your situation but do not see the racist component in your story. As you do not speak Cantonese, you cannot state that the judge was more civilized to Chinese people. Although you are complaining that you had to lose a half day's pay, from the Court's point of view, you wasted their administrative efforts and court time by appearing improperly. The court cannot adjudicate on your husband's case without him being present, that would be a denial of due process.


I assume the law is that the person to whom the car is registered to is liable for parking violations. Did you expect the judge to overlook the law because you are a foreigner?


The judge gave you a chance to apologize and extract yourself from penalties while saving the judge's face. In any court, in any country, never turn down this chance.

Why didn't you just follow the simple instructions? The law is not really up for negotiation.

1) you wasted the court's time by not having your husband show up as the court requested - your faxes seem to be irrelevant since they continuously sent you denials and summoned your husband to court


2) the laws in HK are not the laws of the USA, so don't assume what they can and cannot do. The rights you think you have might not exist in any other country


3) Chinese language naturally sounds very loud and rude even when it is a pleasant conversation about the beautiful weather. Unless you can speak Cantonese i doubt you are able to determine whether or not the judge was rude in his own culture


4) you went to a foreign court without a translator, does that sound like a good idea?


5) HKers are extreme sticklers for the particulars. I've filled out long bank forms before and had them rejected simply because I put an X in a tick box rather than a check mark. Besides the whole summons thing isn't even about being a stickler, it's just the law


Yes the whole situation sounds very unfortunate, stressful, and unnecessary. But at the same time you should realize that the wrongs you made, no matter how well intentioned they were.


Life goes on, this is just another colorful story that you can now tell for the rest of your times.


By the way, from the way you tell the story I do not perceive any discrimination. You said and did things that you incorrectly assumed you can do in a foreign country. Innocent mistake but don't blame it on them.

I understand her frustration very much, and she did fax to get confirmation that she would appear instead of husband. We should not need to bring a translator as Hong Kong still has both English and Cantonese as the used languages. I have watched a few courtcases here and when dealing with foreigners the languaage has always been English. I also agree that maybe its better your husband goes next time and loose half a days salary if not a whole day as well as the fine. Im totally with you on standing up for yourself but the system really has no real logic or flexibility. If you get pulled to court for not apologizing then best eat humble pie and bend your head and say sorry, the judge will be happy and keep his face. :) Best wishes to getting your case closed asap.

Taylormax. If the husband was called to appear in court, he has to turn up. A fax etc is irrelevant.

Gennyk,


The Law is the Law and the judge is the judge who does his job.


First, it's your husband being summoned hence he is supposed to appear in court not you unless you are a lawyer representing your husband but still he needs to appear in person (Your pages of fax is irrelevant)


Interpreter is availble to defendant/plaintiff and they usually ask that before the hearing if you need one.


Base on your post " When the judge asked you if you are D...K which is your husband and you said no then he didn't go further to ask for an interpreter but to discontinue the hearing since you are not the right person to appear in court. Here you should have been apologetic to the judge because it was totally wrong for you to appear in court.


Secondly, judge asked you to apologize and still refuse and blaaaaa that you did nothing and so on...in here the judge should have pronto issue a warrant of arrest for contempt in court even in the absence of a lawyer. You should still be grateful that he did not.


You do not need a lawyer for this, send an apology letter to the judge asap. (lawyer will advise you the same anyway)


And when you receive notice for the next hearing for your husband case let your husband attend the hearing. You can be there and watch and if the judge request your pressence as a witness as you claimed you were the one driving that time, just the time you will talk. Tell your husband talk only when asked by the judge to talk and likewise you. Zipped your mouth if you are not asked to talk. Answer only the question asked and don't elaborate.


Bear this in mind "Less talk less mistake"


There was no issue of discrimination here. (Police came in to help the judge make order in his court) It is their role in the judiciary system.


Just my ten cents though ( take it or leave it)

Odd how no one comes to this lad's defense. You tried your best and did what you thought was rational, admitting guilt and wanting to settle the matter. Well done! Your spirit was in the right place regardless of anything else.

As to the legal case itself, the other comments do speak for themselves. Law is a very fact driven and judgement based process.

The judge, when you appear in court, rules the court room. There are many in my own experience, who are abrupt and rude. The public can decide whether this is good, bad or indifferent. IMO, when a judge lacks civility or needs to be abusive to 'win' his point is never respected. There are other methods he / she could employ.

But it is his courtroom.

You are complaining about the treatment and procedures adopted, which falls outside of your experience and expectations. There have been enough arguments here about the law and whether what you did was right or wrong.

You are complaining about the lack of civility, which is quite evident, and here I stand by you.

If you are really unhappy about this, you could complain to the Ombudsman about the overall conduct of the judge. How far you will get is another matter. The judge could have taken the time to explain more clearly the procedures of the court to you, since you did not have a lawyer present and explain to you your rights under the law. The fact that he failed to do so is a blemish on his record, as he failed to act as a decent public servant. That being said, there are no rules as to the conduct of judges, but perhaps there should be.

A judge cannot advise you what you should do in court. That is what lawyers are for, but there are people in court, who may have made a suggestion to you. The facts of the case - error on check, late payment escalating to this court case if unfortunate. The burden of proof will be with the prosecution, and unfortunately it is a process which if found to be sound no matter what the extenuating circumstances are, no matter how irrational, uncivilized, even stupid it may have been as well as lacking in common sense to you, the law works through process in the manner that according to HK's bureaucracy right or wrong - and generally accepted by all, it works against all of your expectations.


If you have a better idea as to how this process might be improved, expedited, made more civil, and does not interfere with the overall process that law has to follow, by all means, try the ombudsman. That is one place where complaints like this will be accepted. What they do about it, is another mystery to unfold.

My recent experience with the Hong Kong system has been terrible. It's not about justice. I interceded in an dispute between 2 sets of neighbours, one of which his 8 year old daughter along side. She became distressed by the verbal aggression. Father and daughter tried to withdraw but the neighbours followed. I interceded, one of the aggressors turned on me, I pushed back once to stop the advance. The police were called, I was accused of common assault and charged. I had witnesses for my defence but being English and up against 2 locals who knew the system, I quickly learned the extraordinary level of bias in the HK legal system. Fortunately, my friend put me right, explained the system here is not justice, got a lawyer and ended up being bound-over. The important thing to note in any dispute that involved the is:


1- Don't assume the police are fair minded. They aren't, mostly due to language limitations, they err on the side of locals, some of whom will paint a very bias picture. Any statement you give to the police can be used against you so don't answer any questions until you've got a lawyer by your side.


2 - Don't expect Hong Kong's Department of Justice to be "fair minded". Their goal is to process cases quickly. You will need a lawyer to work to negotiate with them (where possible)


3- The Magistrate's courts. There are best described as a "processing factory". Cases a usually rushed, there's little time for sensible or rational argument. Should you be found guilty, expect unusually harsh terms compared to Europe, Canada, Australia et.al.


Remember, the term "white ghost" exists for a reason. If your British, European, Australian, or similar, you will be at a disadvantage right from the start of any dispute. Be extremely cautious. Get lawyered Rapidly!