Should we move to Hong Kong?

Posted by spongebung 11 yrs ago

Hi All

I would really appreciate your help. We are a British family of 5 with 3 kids in elementary school. We are currently living in Silicon Valley Ca and it is pretty amazing here.

My husband has the option to do a 2 year stint in Hong Kong. I don't want to pass up the opportunity but I would like an honest opinion of whether we are best staying in Ca or not.

I've read that schools are very difficult to get places at and the pollution is pretty bad.

Any advice from people who have experience in both places or not. We have lived in Singapore which I loved!

woods99 11 yrs ago

If you lived in Singapore you presumably visited Hong Kong, or at least you have a better idea of life in an advanced Asian city than many people.

The answer is, it all depends. What is the job? A promotion? What is the package? Fully adequate? Are you all adaptable and willing to live a different sort of life?

There are quite a few threads on this sort of question. I suggest you read some of them, and then ask some specific questions.

Money counts in Hong Kong, for most people.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Thanks so much for your response. ... I never visited HK when I was in Sg. The job is a side step so salary will stay the same although we will have school fees paid and some housing allowance. I think financially we will be okay.

I guess I'm just worried about uprooting our family to experience a different country. I think if it was Sg I would be okay with the move but it seems that HK has a few problems with schools and pollution that may be difficult.

I'm trying to find out what the benefits of living in HK are. Are the beaches nice? Are there plenty of things for families to do or is it quite restrictive?

Also I am wondering if any Californians have insights on the differences in lifestyle.

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

Pollution complaints in HK seem completely overblown to me. Lots of blue sky, blue water and green trees outside my window.

Live in a bankrupt California system surrounded by crime-ridden cities, or move to a vibrant economy of hard working people of good character - it was a no brainer for me.

Loyd Grossman is Miss Venezuela 11 yrs ago

I would think finding places for three kids in elementary school will be very hard - though I can't be sure as I send mine to local schools. A large enough place to live will also cost a fortune. How much is your hosuing allowance?

Remmy 11 yrs ago

No offence to the OP, I I personally find Silicon Valley an horrible place. Boring, same type of people, same type of cars, everyone where the same type of clothing. Repetitive shopping malls. Absolute rubbish on TV. Terrible food. Its best features are employment, relative safety, nice climate, and proximity to San Fran and Napa.

I would say absolutely come to HK. But treat it as an adventure. Things will not be like they are in the US, but come and embrace the excitement of Asia. It will do your kids a world of good to come live here, and will likely give you a big career boost too.

jgb 11 yrs ago

No don't move if the job is not a step up and housing is not paid in full, you wont survive, even if schooling is paid and an allowance.

Rent for something decent is expensive.

Elementary school is a difficult age and must be taken into consideration when uprooting established childrens network as Hong Kong is hard work for this.

In saying this i have been here for nine years and love it and so do my children but i could go home anyday for the lifestyle.

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

Regarding housing, everything in HK will be far smaller than you are used to in the US. This is shocking the first few days but you quickly will get used to it. If you live on HK Island then all your housing will be ungodly expensive and usually of appallingly bad quality (unless you are in the 20k+ USD / month rent range).

Look at places further out like Tai Kok Tsui (TKT) or Park Island - 1500sqft apartments can be found there in the 5k USD / month range.

Moving abroad is better than staying in the USA.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Thank you. I appreciate everyone's candor and this is exactly what I was hoping for.

I am finding Silicon Valley very boring which is why I even considered moving. We've been living here nearly 8 years now. I am glad to hear that the pollution issue is not as bad as I had read. :-)

I think we are planning to spend $75kHK month in rent. Is this not enough? I don't want to end up in a tiny high rise apartment.

I am going to start calling schools to find out wait lists but what are debentures? My husband's company does not send any employees to HK so I doubt they have any sway with schools.

I think the school issue is concerning me the most at this point. They are in a very nice private school here which we had to waitlist to get into. Home schooling or splitting them would not be a great option.

Luke HK 11 yrs ago

Hi, I am a local here. I'd like to elaborate a bit regarding the air quality issue. During spring and summer time, the air is better and you can see the details of those buildings across the harbour. The occasional typhoons and rain storms help to clean up the place. However during autumn and winter the wind comes from the north and brings with it the not so pleasant stuff from southern china.

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

At 75k you can get yourself a penthouse or duplex in Park Island (~50k 1500sqft) or at a higher end place in TKT (Hermitage 70k 1600sqft). I think Park Island and TKT are best places for expats to look for good value for your money (newer buildings, larger, better equipped, but still convenient travel [TKT to Central in two subway stops, PI to Central in a 24 minute ferry ride). Most expats go to mid-levels or Happy Valley and pay enormous sums for old shoeboxes.

Please note that in Hong Kong a bedroom is usually no more than 10ft x 10ft in dimensions, so the child's bed literally is half of the room. There are creative solutions though and people get used to the small rooms a lot quicker than you might think.

I'm no expert on schools, but if worst comes to worst and you cannot secure spots here you can always consider www.k12.com - if your kids are intelligent they can knock out two grades in the time it takes an American teacher to go through one.

Remmy 11 yrs ago

Agree with Lucane. 75K will get you a great place. For 50K you could get a fantastic apartment on Park Island: http://parkislandhongkong.blogspot.sg/2011/12/nice-park-island-apartment-for-rent.html

Friends of mine had a place on Park Island like this for 50K. Really good facilities there and plenty of room for a family. There's also the Sai Kung option which might be fun for a family moving from the US to HK.

As for Singapore, prices and cost of living there are now, in my view, overall significantly higher than in HK.

supermfd2 11 yrs ago

Hi spongebung.

This is an interesting dilemma but a good one to have!

The possibility of seeing new places and sharing new life experiences is always a good thing, and certainly it should be an enriching experience for you and your family which will enhance their world view and their lifeskills.

For what it's worth here's my personal perspective. I moved here a few years ago from San Jose CA. My job is better here, I earn more money than I did in CA and the healthcare is better here (more accessible). Also the majority of expats enjoy a farily privileged status in HK and living in this part Asia is very safe, is a great cultural experience and affords you a good standard of living.....lots of pluses.

However, from my personal point of view CA is a much healthier and better environment to live in especially for children: more sunshine, better air quality, not so damp and musky, not as crowded or spatially challenged. Many more kids here seem to suffer from respiratory and skin issues due to the pollution and dampness.

Overall I much prefer CA to HK and think that the quality of life there is miles better but it's a matter of preference and what you value. I love the outdoors and whilst I do still hike, bike or run almost daily here (Sai Kung is great for this) it's just not the same as Cali.

If you consider moving to HK make sure the financial package is good as the cost of living here can be very high (buying western food in what passes for supermarkets here is an eye opener, although property prices are probably similarly high in the San Jose area too).

There are plenty of good inernational schools although if you want to follow an American curriculum then that narrows your options somewhat and places are very competitive so research this before you come as it cuold be a challenge.

If you can move for 2 years and retain the assurance of work back home if you wish to return at that time then it would certainly be a good adventure even if it only lasted for a couple of years.....

I hope this helps

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Thanks to everyone for replying. I guess until we know which school we are going to get into, we can't really consider housing. I don't like commuting too far so I will probably want to live near the school.

We have two dogs so I'm wondering if this will severely limit our rental options. They are both Cocker Spaniels.

I like the idea of exposing the children to a new adventure for a couple of years and a new scene. I will examine the offer carefully to make sure we won't be struggling.

woods99 11 yrs ago

Just don't expect life in Hong Kong to be similar to life anywhere else. There are some similarities, of course, but lots of expats spend their whole time moaning about the differences. The differences are why you travel, why we enrich our lives by living in different countries. There are good things, and bad things.

One little tip that I would give is, make sure you budget sensibly, it is very, very easy to spend lots of money in the place.

blimunda 11 yrs ago

Hi there, I'm new to this forum but am really in need of some advice. I live in the UK and have been offered a secondment to HK. I'm hesitating because I'd be coming out there as a single mum with my 5-year-old. I've found a small school in Lantau that seems friendly and relaxed. I prefer to live off HK island, so am happy to commute by ferry daily. My package isn't fantastic. My employer will give us one return flight to HK + 15 days' paid accommodation + per diem so I can find a place to live. Basically, I'll have two weeks to find a flat, which is a bit daunting, given I'll have a 5-year-old in tow as well.

I will be earning ca. 57,000HKD/month net + my employer has agreed to pay 80% of my daughter's school fees. Unfortunately, the location I've chosen to live in (Mui Wo), doesn't have very many furnished flats, so I'll have to pay my own settling-in costs as well. I'm still considering the offer, because it feels like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me, but I'm not sure it's the wisest thing to do. Right now, all I can think of are those first few months when I'll be firefighting at every corner, trying to sort out our lives. It will just be her and me. No family, no friends. The secondment is for a year. It feels like a lot of hassle for 12 months, but then, I think it would be such an amazing opportunity for my daughter to experience a new culture. If anyone out there has any advice for me, I'd be very grateful. Thanks!

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

If you move then consider Park Island - 12k for a 2br 1 bath, very convenient travel to Central & Tsing Yi / Tsuen Wan. Beautiful community with all the amenities you need, on the beach with views of mountains, sea, bridge, etc.

Whitemischief 11 yrs ago

Hi Spongebung, I think given your expat history you may find the following link a reasonable to upper limit gauge of accommodation types and costs, you can obviously do better if you are prepared to commute a little.

http://www.manksquarters.com/main/listprop.asp?cat=MODERN_CLASSIC&subcat=RENT&gclid=CIGf0dKukLkCFeUE4godZXMAeA

blimunda 11 yrs ago

Thanks malka and lucane. My daughter has completed the equivalent of kindergarten, so is due to start yr 1 in Sept (UK system). I will check out Park Island and Disc Bay. I don't know how realistic it is to come over as a single mum and sort out accomm, childcare and a school within a month, let alone two weeks.

JJChan 11 yrs ago

Hong Kong is so many things, it's efficient, vibrant, a mix of city and amazing skylines with wonderful country parks spectacular hiking trails, great beaches. It's safe, convenient, plenty of entertainment, excellent sports clubs for families, plenty of domestic help the list goes on. BUT, it's one of the most polluted places in the world with a government and a large majority of the population doing very little to improve the situation. There are times during the year when we experience fabulously blue skies, but these are few and far between. Today for example was just a blanket of pollution very high with a reading of 159 in most areas. Quite shocking. If you have a child with any health problems especially asthma, think twice before relocating to HK. Along with the pollution the school situation is very challenging. I would suggest you will not find places for all three children in one school if you find a place for one you will be very lucky. Suggest you might try Harrow International being a new school it would be more likely to have places and the other one that maybe a possibility would be Kellett School. I doubt you will get a look in at any others. If it wasn't for the pollution it would be a really amazing city.

woods99 11 yrs ago

Just remember. Hong Kong is not as good as the boosters think, or as bad as the critics say. It all depends on you.

There are some good things, there are also some aspects that nobody, but nobody likes. The highs can be really high, the lows can be equally low.

The most important single thing is to judge the place on its own merits, do not compare it with anywhere else. The first few weeks can be exhilarating, but then some of the gremlins can start to appear. If you get through the first 12 to 18 months, look after your relationships. do not get over-excited or have too high expectations, you will be okay.

The work environment can be pretty tough, very competitive, not very supportive, depends on the employer.

rititt 11 yrs ago

come to HKG only when it is absolutely necessary (ie will be fired if refuse to move here or salary multiplied by 10 with huge bonus etc..) ! this place is not good for child care and education (school, sport facilities, friends etc..) not counting it wrecks family (not accostumed to asian culture).

rititt 11 yrs ago

maybe i should elaborate more here, so you could understand what i meant.

your husband must have at least a package of minimum US$1.5million to support decently his family living here. 3 kids + 2 dogs, the rent will be US$20K to US$50K a month. You will need to buy debentures for school to secure a place in one of the international schools. i don't know how much it is now, but some 15 years ago it was in the hundreds of thousand HK$. Then you will need to join some private clubs and if his company has already a presence here, maybe they already have debentures in some of the private clubs. Then you will need a car which cost about double what they cost in the USA and you will need a driver, not only because there is not much parking space wherever you go but also to drive you, your husband and specially your 3 kids around to school, their sport activities, their friends etc... Then you will need at least 2 domestic helpers to take care of your house, your kids and your dogs. Your role here will be a house-wife in every terms, ie you will have to supervise the house chores, children day to day lifes, the dogs etc... not counting also looking after your husband.

And if all the above could be met, then you will be worried about the easnyness of sex and the many pretty young asian women who are targeting newcomers from the West with their naive hence vulnerable mentality.

And if all the above works satisfactory, your children might end up having pulmonary disease.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Oh wow ... really? Gosh it sounds awful.

V1234 11 yrs ago

I would advise against it.... We are renting a spacious place (4 BR, ~110,000 HKD/month) and it is in a very "child-friendly" facility (supposedly). Two of our 4 children are in good schools. The other two are too young. Anyway, HK is not without interesting things to do and see and a lot of people love the affordability of domestic help. I would give it all up in order to return to our house and yard. I miss the US terribly and most Asians and even Europeans just can't fathom how restrictive the space differences are. The cultural differences are also huge... We are here for 2 more years and will definitely not extend. It is a great place to visit, but I strongly advise caution in making the move. It is a great place to visit and it will be fun to talk about "post facto", but it really gets old fast.....

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

rititt,

A lot of that is just purely absurd. Rent of 20-50k USD a month? You can rent penthouse luxury apartment, duplex, for under 10k USD a month in TKT (an excellent location 5 minutes away from ICC and IFC). You only need 20-50k USD if you want to be living in a villa on the Peak, which no one needs to do. You can also rent a duplex penthouse on Park Island for about 8k USD a month - your estimates are just way wrong.

And who needs domestic helpers? She is apparently taking care of her family right now just fine without helpers, so why does she magically need helpers when she moves to a new city? Besides, even if that were true, a helper costs under 1k USD a month.

As for the car? Who needs a car? Most everyone in the city gets by without a car - why does an expat NEED a car? No one needs a car in this city. And even if you truly god honest needed a car, you could just rent one and a driver, or buy a cheap second hand one from AsiaXpat (you can see the low prices in the classifieds here).

Private clubs - who needs a private club? 99.5% of the population here survives without joining a private club, I'm sure these new expat can survive without joining one too.

I'm sorry, but the above post was just insane.

rititt 11 yrs ago

i said "support decently".

i know it seems insane, but it's the real thing. Already some 20 years ago, a package for an expatriate was US$1million.

An apartment in Tavistock will be rent HK$350K per month. 3 kids+2dogs, they need a house or a very large flat. In decent location, it would be a minimum of US$20K per month.

some people here don't know, living as a local or single etc... family with 3 kids and 2 dogs is a very heavy luggage for here and specially if they want to maintain the same quality of life as in CA.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Is my husband going to become a babe magnet suddenly?

rititt 11 yrs ago

$1million was for the junior expats. anyway, i don't want to argue here, just try to help her understand and i know what i talk about. living here as a single is very different from a family with children, (3+2dogs). the driver, domestic helpers are not a financial burden they are here to illustrate the necessity to seek outside help: it's a new terrotiry, don't know anyone, don't know the directions, no friends, children will be less independent, so the mother will be very active here, handling all the things which would not exist in her home etc... very tough for her.

babe magnet? depends on how old is he.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

he is 39

rititt 11 yrs ago

most dangerous age!

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Oh no. I don't think I'd like to deal with constant female competition. That sounds like it would suck.

rititt 11 yrs ago

i can assure you, it will be a real possibility so don't ignore it.

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

Rental prices are insane if the expat flocks to the expat areas - Midlevels, Happy Valley, Stanley etc. Normally I would say the same quality, but in this case I must say even better quality can be found if the expat broadens their horizons a tiny bit to include areas like Tai Kok Tsui (TKT) or Park Island - new penthouse flats (1.5k-2.5k square feet) can be found there for under 10k USD. From TKT to ICC is a one stop subway ride (3 minutes) and to IFC is just one more subway stop - I contend that this is far superior in convenience than being stuck up on the Midlevels and having to take buses / mini buses / walk the escalator. Similar is true for Park Island - it is a 24 minute ferry ride straight to IFC (only "problem" with Park Island is you cannot bring any cars onto the island, so if you demand a car then Park Island is very unsuitable).

rititt 11 yrs ago

that was why i said, come only if it is absolutely necessary.

coming here, as a wife, you would suffer the most and have the most to lose, including your husband.

you can always come as tourist for holidays if you want to discover different and exotic culture.

rititt 11 yrs ago

blimunda, you come only if your salary/package has increased enough to compensate for all the pains you will suffer or a promise of a promotion when you return. That is the only reason for you to move here (for 1 year?).

your daughter can always come here when she's older, at her age (5) she wouldn't remember anything so that is not a good reason for you to move here just for 1 year.

blimunda 11 yrs ago

hmmm, thanks, rititt. The package isn't huge - compared to what most people get. I have a feeling I'll be losing a bit of money at the beginning, because I'll need to pay settling in costs from my own pocket (for furniture, etc, since I can't seem to find a furnished place in Mui Wo). I managed to find a small (VERY small) school which will probably be fine for my daughter. She's really bright, and since the pupil-teacher ratio appears to be high (there are only 20 kids in the school, so it's very small), I reckon she will get one-on-one instruction. I could be wrong, of course. Then again, she will only be in year 1... I don't know. I'm used to living in small accommodation (London flats are not particularly spacious unless you live far out of the city or have lots of money), so weirdly, if we were to move to Lantau, we'd probably end up living in a larger home than we've had so far. I've travelled a fair bit, albeit on my own, and really love experiencing new cultures. BUT being a single mum is going to be challenging, which is why I'm hesitating. You also mentioned the pollution. Both my daughter and I are asthmatic... so, sounds like coming out there is a bad idea? Still, many of my colleagues travel back and forth from HK and none of them have complained about the air quality - actually, only one did. In fact, I decided to live on Lantau because of my fears about the pollution. And London is pretty polluted, too. I live on a small highway, so the pollution levels are worse, but my lungs are ok. On the other hand, I've read that the pollution is really, really bad in HK. It's so hard to make a decision. Financially, I won't really be making much money. That's the reality. I'd be better off staying in London. But I'm really tempted by the prospect of spending a year abroad. I know that sounds crazy, but I've uprooted myself from countries for less. I've been deliberating over this quandary for weeks now, with no clear sense of what I should do. The hassle is MASSIVE. That's the truth. I'll have to put my things into storage (another cost), let out my flat, pull my daughter out of the school she's at (a really good one) - and hope they take her back next September (they said they won't hold her place). Then, when I get there, I have 15 days to find a flat, find a domestic worker, settle my daughter into school, etc. Realistically, I imagine I'll end up having to do half-days until I find someone to look after my daughter. It's going to be hard. So... the question is, is all that hassle worth it? I'm just not sure. Some days I think, well, why not? And others, I think, NO WAY!

rititt 11 yrs ago

Take out from ur mind that this is an opportunity of a life time. It isn't! It is a destruction of ur life. Think it the same way as a shopping temptation, you really want to buy this item and your impulse will make you regret it later.

Consider the pros and cons. This time it isn't the accommodation since you are used to small apartment. Living style isn't important either since it will be a short stay. Education isn't important either since it's year1 and it won't be permanent. So how would you approach this dilemma? For me it's pretty simple: are you willing to trade a 1 year adventure and excitement, ie a temporary solution against the pain and risk of adverse situation when you return to London? No school for your child, mental disturbance to your child due to constant change of environment, going through all the hussle of renting and storage etc .. If your answer is yes then go to hkg otherwise don't.

Also remember, weather here is not so good for asthmatic people, it's humid and air is often very polluted.

bmurv 11 yrs ago

Hi spongebung,

I spent the first 18 years in Hong Kong, the next 30+ in the San Francisco Bay Area. In the late 90's, we were expats to Japan for about 2 years.

The decision to live in Hong Kong should be made after considering the best balance for the whole family which I know you are very much trying to do here.

Loneliness is a common issue that expats face in a foreign country. Expat community is very transient in nature, people come and go all the time.

Then you have to consider the quality of health care in Hong Kong. Nothing compares to the facilities in UCSF and Lucille Packard Hospital if ever there is a need for it. Air quality is a real concern, the HK govt acknowledged that and is costing HK its competitiveness. I know expats leaving for this very reason. If your husband is in the technology field, the Bay Area is the most cutting edge. If he is in finance or banking, I can see the merit of relocating to HK or NY. Another issue is the supply of foods, locals are uncomfortable eating produce or meat imported from China. If you were to go the organic route, grocery stores like 360 or Citysuper carry organic produce but are much more expensive than the farmers' market in Mountain View, Costco, or Whole Foods.

Hong Kong is a fascinating place to visit, I go back almost every year to visit but living in HK is an entirely different matter. If you enjoy the coolness in the Bay Area, you will have a hard time coping with the humid summer in Hong Kong. If your family is into adventure and the assignment is well defined and very short term, imo a year max, then it probably will not hurt to try. I personally think it is mentally healthier living in the Bay Area than in HK.

Good luck!

rititt 11 yrs ago

It is always a hussle and handicap to move to a foreign country. The only time you move is only when you are forced to or it will bring a better life prospects. If you want to discover new culture, just come as tourist. This is specially true when there are children involved. Their future is at stake. If single, then you do whatever you want, exploring the world is a different matter.

spongebung 11 yrs ago

I have decided that this is not a good move for us. I can deal with all the issues of schools etc but if my marriage/family life will be threatened by women desperate to snag a rich western man, then I think it's not going to work. I love my family too much to risk it.

rititt 11 yrs ago

Wise decision.

Thames 11 yrs ago

Gosh, I'm sad you are influenced by some of the negative posts here that could have absolutely no bearing on your individual family circumstance. Your man will be your man with the same mindset and principles he has now, whether he would be working in Hong Kong or doing business trips within the US, i.e. if he is going to stray then he is going to stray, but please don't imagine that if you move here he will be lured down dark alleys by Suzie Wong sirens in sexy cheung sams as soon as you wave him off each morning, because - although there certainly are, like in most places, predatory females (mainly office-based) and desperate to 'snare' a relatively wealthy white guy - he should recognise them for what they are, and if you are confident in your relationship and enjoy a social life together and are up for a brilliant family adventure together then in my humble opinion you should go for it.

For the record. I'm a trailing spouse who came here ostensibly for a two-year contract 13 years ago and we have no plans to leave for the foreseeable as HK has been really good to us, though we don't have children, which I appreciate makes a big difference financially and logistically. We muddle along very well, without a helper, in a 2,600m2 house with private swimming pool (HKD52K/month) 40 minutes drive from Central and in mountain/sea area where pollution doesn't seem to affect us. (Public transport is even quicker, but my husband needs the car to get to work as his office isn't on public transport route.) I work part time and between us we've made loads of friends over the years and have a great quality of life, far far better than our very comfortable but much duller existence in the UK.

I don't want to sound like a rose-tinted ad for HK as of course it has its own frustrations and irritations but I really hope some previous posters' bitter experiences here don't put you off what could be an amazing chapter in your life.

Thames 11 yrs ago

Oops, should have proof read before sending - small point but house is a modest 2,600 square feet, not metres

Lucane01 11 yrs ago

This is absurd. Not that I actually care whether or not you move here, but to decide that you won't just because rititt says HK is going to break apart your family is crazy.

First off rititt posts in every thread like this (and the divorce threads) about how "terrible" HK is. This is clearly a scorned person who is looking to take out their vengeance through this strange manner of trash talking every aspect of this city.

If you are so terrified that your husband will cheat on you just because he is in a new country with exotic women then you might as well divorce him now because clearly there is not enough trust between you two.

This thread went from helpful to an irrational hatchet job real quick. Whatever.

rititt 11 yrs ago

first i'm a local. second, i know the expat world pretty well, the married one with children and with an appropriate package for a standard similar to where they come from (USA particularly).

only people who know this environment have an idea of what it is otherwise most of them have not a single idea.

a few here who have had experience, even without the consideration of "husband" grabing, ALL said the same, ie not to come. So people who have some brain, can do the math and realize the cons are far superior than the pros. Only expats who are "forced" to come here or seek promotion on their career, are here, most of the rest (I say "most" so please don't get excited and feel insulted, not my intention) are "lapsap" who are here to try their luck because they are not capable to achieve anything in their home country. That is pretty normal, why the hell you need to move to a foreign country?

rititt 11 yrs ago

Lucane01, i dont know you and i haven't judged you. you shouldn't write what you did. you seem to be a young excited man, talking about things which you don't know. if i were you, i would just shut up and listen/read, at least you would learn something.

spongebung perfectly understood me, i didn't say HKG will break a family apart, I said it could and just this possibility is sufficient to scare a woman off because again i want to repeat: what is the necessity for her come here?

maybe you have nothing to lose, but she does and if she is willing to take that risk, then there must be a real valid reason: money, career? definitely not to taste the local culture!

spongebung 11 yrs ago

Thank you to everyone. I was very worried when I read the posts about husband grabbing and it certainly did put me off. Our family life is wonderful and I would hate to spoil it by placing crazy temptations in my husband's path. My husband has never done anything to make me question him, ever. I am just aware of how devious some women can be to get what they want.

If this is significantly more of an issue in HK then I think it is worrying. One of my friends in Singapore lost her husband to the helper.

blimunda 11 yrs ago

Spongebung, hope you didn't mind my adding to your post with my own questions for the forum. Fortunately, I won't be accompanied by a husband, so no fear of losing one to a devious wench. If your husband hasn't done anything to make you doubt him, hopefully he is enough of an adult not to be swayed by "temptation". I firmly believe that it takes two to get up to no good, and the man who ran off with the helper was probably already unhappy in some way (or prone to doing something like that). Still, I don't know anything about HK - which is why, like you, I'm looking for advice on whether to come or not. For me, it's a financial question - if I can let my flat out in London for enough money, then there's nothing really stopping me. I'm very concerned about the pollution though - something I won't know until I get there. All I'm saying is, do think about it - really think about it. Because temptation lurks everywhere. rititt clearly has some experience of this issue, but ultimately, it's your decision - anything can happen. It might turn out to be an amazing experience for you and your family. Who knows? Everyone, thanks for your advice so far. Lots to mull over.

Ed 11 yrs ago

Rittit - I'll have to disagree with you on the lapsap comment....

Most of the people I know came to Asia not because they were forced by their companies so as to further their careers- or because they were failures back home... they came for the adventure - they stay because of the adventure and because they have been successful in Asia

I would argue that as a foreigner it is far more difficult to be successful in Asian than back home - particularly in Hong Kong since 1997...

Previously if you were a foreigner - particularly British - the opportunities were much greater... however these days being a foreigner with no chinese language skills means you are up against it big time because there are hundreds of thousands of locals who have as good or better western educations... and they speak and read Chinese....

The stereotypical 'expat' of the 80's is a dying bread... friends who own recruitment companies tell me you have to be pretty senior and pretty special to get hired here these days - the priority is often candidates with English AND Mandarin language skills.

HK is not really a place you can just show up and hope to make a go of it as in the past... there are onerous visa requirements + the cost to drop in and hang around trying to make job connections are exorbitant....

Air pollution aside... Hong Kong is one of the world's greatest cities.

rititt 11 yrs ago

lapsap was too strong a word. surely, they might be competent and qualified but definitely they are here because doors were closed in their country and here or Asia in general represent a better opportunity, that's why they decided to stay here.

many are here by accident, after they come here for holidays. very few deliberatly decided to move here without knowing the place.

so 2 types: 1 is the real expats who are well paid to move here and on a temporary basis (but a few, later decided to stay because they see opportunities and usually they quit their company to start a business). the other is by accident, usually young and single, willing to try their luck here because there is more opportunity here than in their home country. this category, usually don't come here with much cash to spend.

nowadays, more locals are recruited and have similar package than expats and only very senior are sent over here, for junior level, they just recruit locally. This is the category of executives who are well paid either local or expats, by their company. I'm not talking about them. it's the others who are not paid, employed by large companies.

Skmum 11 yrs ago

Dear Spongebung,

Lived here close to 30 years, and still loving it.

Marriages fail because of a variety of reasons.

I think it's a bit unfair to paint Hong Kong as full of 'husband grabbing' women. Having said that, I trust my husband wholeheartedly, so I have never really worried about it.

The biggest issue for new families relocating right now is finding schooling for their kids. But somehow, school places eventually come up. We've got new neighbours from all over the world who went through the "no school places" stress at the start, but all the kids were placed before the schoolyear started.

There are a lot of factual informatipn and figures that might help you get an even clearer perspective. Send me a message if you'd like help.

All the best.

rititt 11 yrs ago

Another tip and I stop here. HKG itself is no problem (well, not really, many asian women are also here, not only HKG women) but remember it is a regional center. Will be lots of traveling in the region, china, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, vietnam, etc.... It's there where the danger lies. Poverty make the women do what they do. USA, specially CA and Silicon Valley is ideal for family, in every sense. Routine, no excitement. Asia is still a paradise for men. Culture provide proper environment for that. As an example, having a mistress is sign of sucess. If u understand this then u understand what I meant.

Good luck.

Sapphire 11 yrs ago

Spongebung, I wholeheartedly agree with what Thames has written!

We've lived in Asia for 17 years. The past 13 years of which we've been in Hong Kong. We moved from the UK with two young children, who have grown up here. We also have two large dogs, and we live in a lovely house with a garden, in the New Territories (both husband & I travel to 'the Island' each day) which costs far less that the HK$75K you mentioned would be your housing budget.

Yes, HK is polluted, but as yet I don't know of anyone who has left because of it (I'm sure some have, but there's not exactly been a mass exodus of the expat population because of it). Yes, school places are hard to come by, but I don't know anyone who has been left without a school place once they arrived. Hong Kong is an extremely safe place to bring your children up in ... my own kids have thrived here and have had so many experiences and adventures that they wouldn't have had back in the UK.

We came here for the experience of living in a different country, a better lifestyle, learning about different cultures (yes, rititt, some of us actually like to do that!) widening our horizons, and to give our kids a great life. I have a solid marriage, and no concerns about the 'temptations' that have been mentioned. In fact, I know less people here who have had marriage problems than I know in the UK! Having a mistress may be a sign of success in Chinese culture perhaps, but in Western culture we see it as a sign of a man who is an absolute plonker:-) ... it doesn't impress us!

We don't regret our decision to move here at all, and we'll probably stay until my husband retires. I'm not saying that HK doesn't have it's faults, it does, just like anywhere else in the world, but it has a lot going for it, and like many others, we love the place.

Just thought it would be good for you to read that we don't all have the same views as rititt. I don't think it would be a good idea to base your final decisions on what a few people have said, especially those who are blatantly trying to put you off coming.

rititt 11 yrs ago

Oh la, I need to clarify here. Only a few here managed to answer the op question. Of course hkg is a place like any international center and there is everything. She can come and enjoy whatever, everything is possible. But that was not very helpful at all. I only compare hkg and CA and highlight what she should be aware of so she could make an informed decision. She is not forced to come here, she has an option and so she needs all the specifics which concern a lifestyle as expats. Just to say here is good, it's enjoyable doesn't serve any purpose. For example, for space , one of writer very well describe how space is lacking here, air pollution etc... and the right answer was when it compare with CA. We are talking about differential. If she comes from Afghanistan or Irak then surely hkg would be much better but from CA, Silicon Valley?

rititt 11 yrs ago

Talking about culture, I don't think the expat community knows well the locals. They live in a privilege environment in their cocoon and during their stay only know a few places where they always go. The real hkg is 5 to 10 people in a 500sq ft flat, where everyone wants to make money. Expat kids don't interact with the real locals only the overseas or english speaking educated. In a world where wealth disparity is huge with no social net. Life is tough in hkg and environment is not ideal for children upbringing.

bmurv 11 yrs ago

It boils down to which version of Hong Kong are we talking about. The expat version or the local version? Or is it something in between? Air quality and weather are the only common things here.

Is spongebung going to be living among the locals or is she going to be living in expat dominated neighborhoods? If it is the latter and is a short term assignment, her life style, when compared to the silicon valley will not be much compromised. In fact Michelin starred restaurants in Hong Kong are plentiful, easier to get a reservation, and a lot less expensive than the Bay Area. For non-Michelin starred restaurants, western styled restaurants are not as good as restaurants in the Silicon Valley, but Asian restaurants are almost all better than any Asian restaurants in the Bay Area. Taste is better but not the quality of foods because of its source.

Thanks to globalization, when in HK, spongebung will be able to shop in the same big boxes like H&M, Zara, Gap, Abercrombie ad Fitch, Hollister if she chooses.

As far as accommodation, most likely it is city living versus suburb lives, again if this is a short term assignment, this difference can make things less boring for spongebung. As far as foods, you can still buy produce from Ca except it is less fresh but more costly.

As to education, some private schools and some public schools in CA are much more competitive than the international schools in HK. Depends on the school the kids are in and the school they will be in, there may not be an advantage by moving if academic competitiveness is the only metric used. Personally, I think Bay Area schools are well rounded in their approach to education. Colleges in CA are ranked among the top in the US and are highly ranked globally. Stanford, UC Berkeley, Cal Poly, USC, Pomona, Harvey Mudd, Claremont Mckenna, Scripps, UC Davis, and other UC schools.

If everyone is healthy, then the differential to the quality of health care is not a concern as hospitals and doctors in HK are able to treat the standard problems like bacterial infection, flu, food poisoning, etc. However, if it is beyond the standard illnesses, the quality of care is substandard.

As for transportation, the common mode in HK is MTR, buses, or taxis, versus driving your own car in the silicon valley. I personally find driving myself to be a lot more comfortable than sharing a space in the MTR or riding in a bus. Taxis are poorly maintained there and rides are often bumpy. Walking and sweating make you more fit physically, driving and not sweating because of the constant cool breeze make one more prone to weight gain.

I believe the difference in the quality of life becomes more obvious and to the negative if the assignment is of longer duration or if spongebung chooses to live among the locals. But then again living among the locals probably offers the best adventure to spongebung as well.

In any case, by moving, spongebung will be in the finance capital of Asia, by not moving, she is in the epicenter of the hi tech world.

Good luck!

rititt 11 yrs ago

malka, expatriate = ex-patrie, people outside their home country. HKG has become your home, so you're not expat any longer.

expats are those who come here for a temporary period and return to their home country (or another country) after their assignment. with this definition, no expats want their children to study in a local school, they don't see any purpose since they will leave in a few years and besides they can't get in because they can't speak nor write Cantonese (and they will miss the date for applying) and even if they can speak, it would be too tough, children from mixed marriage where the mother is a local has difficulty to keep up with the works and tuitions for their children in local schools (because english speaking at home).

funny, do i write like a woman? i'm a male.

Sapphire 11 yrs ago

rititt, with all due respect, by your own admission, you are a local, and whilst you have lived in CA and are able to compare the two places, you are not an expat living in Hong Kong. You are not giving a clear picture of Hong Kong life for expats ... which is essentially what the OP would be. Many of us do not all shy away from the local population and culture, and we don't all live in expat ghettos, on the contrary, many of my closest friends are locals and I work with a 50/50 mix of locals and expats ... we intermingle and socialize together. My kids have grown up with, what will no doubt be, lifelong friends from many different countries/cultures, without prejudice. That in itself is an excellent reason to give your kids the opportunity to live in a different country and learn about different cultures. You basically say that the information we are giving the OP is not correct, that in 'real' Hong Kong people are living 5-10 in a 500 sq.ft. apartment. I don't dispute that fact, however, the OP will be an 'expat' in Hong Kong, so the information she needs is the information that would relate to her family circumstances, as expats ... not what applies to locals. And just because some expats may live in a bigger flat/house, doesn't mean that they are unable, or unwilling to mix with locals and just 'stick to their own kind'! You seem to have a very narrow minded view of expats and their children and whilst some may not mix, many of us do and we enjoy the opportunities that living in a different country allows us to experience. Which is why many of us choose to become expats in the first place ... it's not just about money.

rititt 11 yrs ago

sapphire, you have absolutely no idea of what i want to say. i suggest that you read and read and read again what i wrote and try to catch my meaning.

the 5 to 10 in a 500sq ft and the thread concerning it is to highlight the big difference in every way and so it's tough for an expat to be part it. and i don't think you know how the locals live. do you speak cantonese? have you spent 1 hour alone with middle-age cantonese who can't speak english? have you been living in a local family say for 1 month? i don't think expats can mix for real with the locals, only the expats who made their home in HKG and make the effort to learn to speak cantonese can really mix with them otherwise most of the expats think they know but actually they don't know.

you don't want your kids to live in a foreign country, you do that only when you have no other choice but to move or you hate your own country so much to the point that you have to leave. i repeat, it is absolutely not normal for someone to leave his/her country if not for a particular reason: opportunity because at home there's none (like now in Europe, young spanish had to move to live in germany to find a job and they need to be re-train and learn german) or as a young person with no responsibility to feed children and pay the rent, you take the gamble and move to a different country for whatever reason, adventure, forgetting someone you love (you can join the foreigh legion also), etc... for whatever. if you have roots in your home country, you want your kids to be educated there, building up the network, the knowledge of the country, its culture because their future will be in that country. A family of 3 kids would never start a new life in a foreing country!

drew54 11 yrs ago

HK has no benefit at all for kids. Only parents income. Small apartments, no backyards to play in, no riding your bikes/playing sports in the street, excessive homework, and high pollution . Ignore that stupid comment about seeing blue skies, what kills you is hard to detect let alone see. Check the http://www.epd-asg.gov.hk/ website daily to see for yourself. Dont come if your life is good at the moment.

Sapphire 11 yrs ago

Oh dear, rititt, you are so very naive to think that a person should be born, grow up, live & work, and then die in the same country!! There's a big wide world out there where people can learn new things and have wonderful opportunities. Many people the world over take chances and become expats, they enrich their lives and make a better life for their families ... who wouldn't want to do that??

To answer you questions, no, I don't speak Cantonese, I haven't lived with a local family for 1 month, yes, I have been in the company of a middle-aged cantonese only speaker (and very interesting it was too!). Next time I mix with my so called 'local' friends I'll be sure to tell them that they are not 'real' locals because they took the time to learn to speak english, so they are 'fake' locals and obviously know nothing about Chinese culture, and everything they have ever told/taught me about their culture must be untrue because they aren't 'real' locals.

Actually, I'm more than happy for my kids to live in a foreign country, I don't see why they shouldn't have the opportunity to do so, and now they are of the age to be thinking about their own careers they are eager to see where their future opportunities may take them. We, as a family, have always had a choice about where to live, and we still do. My husband can work in the UK, we have somewhere to live in the UK, but we CHOOSE to live and work in HK, because of all the reasons I have previously stated, and many expats choose to do the same, because we can! Why you think 'it is absolutely not normal for someone to leave his/her own country' unless it's because of the reasons you state, simply shows how insular and narrow minded a person you must be.

According to your way of thinking, no families have ever (or should ever) take the opportunity to experience a new life in a different county, what a load of twaddle!

rititt 11 yrs ago

"According to your way of thinking, no families have ever (or should ever) take the opportunity to experience a new life in a different county, what a load of twaddle!"

so many people in this forum give answers which are not related to the question asked. they only wrote to express their opinion as a reaction to comment which i made and took it personally. my intention is not to attack anyone, not the purpose here, but to highlight the main difference in living between CA and HKG. when they read something which concern them, they react to it and then start to make comments which are not relevant to this post.

I can tell you, based on real experience, and a few here who have experience and know what they talk about, have also recommended not to come over, living standard and quality for a family is much much higher and better than in HKG which is not so good for family if compare to CA.

She is living most probably in a big house with garden which she can't have it here unless to pay US$50K (and some here continue to instist that she could stay in a penthouse of 1,500-2,500 sq ft for less than US$10K which by the way the OP has absolutely no idea of the environment/location of this penthouse, me neither, but i'm 100% certain that it won't fit her family unless she downgrade her standard and accept to live inside it. But surely they could live in a 3,000sq ft at $15K per month but i can tell you, it won't match the standard that she presently enjoys). Quality of life (for family) is also much better there, in every sense, from the weather, pollution, parking, sport facility, food, school, health etc, there is no comparaison. Also in Silicon Valley, there are so many asians, specially the Chinese who control more than 50% of the business, and they are the educated and sophisticated one, much higher than the educated ones in HKG (most of them come from HKG, Taipei, a lot travel in and out). Moving here would not bring any benefit, only the excitement to be in a new environment, not even learning the local culture which could only be artificial, only on the surface, the local people they would interact would be the western-educated ones, which she can do in Silicon Valley anyway.

The husband will spend most of his time working, so whether in USA or HKG, it's no difference. The children will spend their time in school and at home. It's her, as the house wife who will suffer. her life style will completely change, she will need maids and driver to help her manage her life correctly because in a foreign country she doesn't know much, she will have to manage not only her children but her staff and then her husband. She won't live as she used to in CA. She won't either have the time for herself. Then she will need to make new friends in a very tight community which constantly change. same as for schools, the kids always change. Experience for children in a foreign country? they won't see nor learn anything, unless they study in a Chinese school and master chinese otherwise in the future there is no value, worse, they would only know the artificial close knit expat community, giving them the wrong image of the real HKG.

Sport facility: there is no comparaison with CA. It's pretty tough in HKG, there is not much to offer. Unless they join a private club. Of course, they could do like the locals, but why shoud they downgrade their standard? in CA, they have everything and easy access and cheap! this is only an example, it will be like that for everything once in HKG if compare with CA.

And to top it all, she will run the risk that her hisband be grabbed. Here is what most of you don't understand. You can give all your theory that if the love is strong, that won't happen etc... all the bullshit. Do you think the OP want to take the risk and test her husband loyalty just for the pleasure to move to HKG with no benefit? I said to move ONLY if she is forced to or she get extra and substantial benefit from the company.

And for those who are not aware, that risk is more real that what you might think. This is a pandora box. Western people are educated and think very differently from Asian, their life is much more regulated and mechanical and fit perfectly well their home environment. Coming to HKG, not only a super city but in Asia, and a new environment, you dont know how a person will change, specially an Amercian or UK who are very much used to routine life (i'm talking in a very general term). In Asia, it's exciting and people are not brought up in the same rule/ethic as in the USA. and men are treated and viewed not the same way either. women place in society is much weaker than in the West, some countries even treat them as objects of pleasure and servitude. New environment, new adventure, new risk.

If i were her, I won't come, I would have too much to lose. But I'm not her, she can do whatever she wants but i think she should thank me to highlight all these to her instead of most of you who even dare to say that i have so much against HKG that my comments only blind and scare her off. It is all your comments who blind her and will push her into taking a big risk.

As I said, for the only benefit that she could get, she could do it by just coming over here for 2 weeks as tourists.

rititt 11 yrs ago

malka, are we talking about the same? local schools are taught in Chinese. I'm not talking about kindergarden. I'm talking about the real ones: Saint Paul co-ed., Saint Joseph, Wai Yan etc... do you think that children of expats can study there? I absolutely don't think so and i know what i talk about. And when i said even mixed marriage children can't catch up in those schools, i also know what i'm taling about.

again, are we talking about the same HKG?

I don't have to check on WIKI, ex-patrie is the french equivalent of your latin ex-patria.

rititt 11 yrs ago

as a side note: HKG is a very expensive city, there is no value, specially for a family. Property is one of the most, if not the most, expensive in the world, so everything else is expensive because of real estate.

Live in HKG only if you are very wealthy and so could afford it otherwise life is miserable. So people who want to move over here, you need to secure your source of income because the burn-rate is so high that you couldn't last very long (of course, if your overhead is low, you could even live and eat like the 'poors', then you could last longer). Many people use HKG as a bridge for other countries in the region, that's fine but HKG for the sake of HKG, you need to be solid financially. I am talking about living as living with a family with children, not as a single starting his luck so can't take the risk, the kids need to eat, and you have to pay for everything, food, rent, school fee, car, insurance, maid, driver, club, travelling, clothes, unnecessary expenses because your kinds want them, litigation, mistress, girlfriend, supporting relatives, dogs, etc...

rititt 11 yrs ago

malka, ok, we just don't talk about the same standard. as i said, there is everything and for everyone here, but try to get the top tier standard. and the 3 schools i listed are the top 3 local schools in HKG (also DGS in kowloon but for girls)

in general, high schools in HKG are taught in Chinese and so you must be able to read and write chinese. Some mixed marriage can put their kids to a local school but which one? I doubt that it's one of the top 3 unless one of the parent was an old student and his residence is in the same district then he could get in but then he needs also to perform and that's pretty tough for a non-chinese speaking mother because a mother to follow/supervise is absolutely necessary otherwise the student will fail.

Sapphire 11 yrs ago

Ok, we'll admit it ... all the tens of thousands of expats living and working in Hong Kong are only here because they were forced to come, or they didn't have a choice.

We all live in shoe boxes and our kids have to share beds. We are so poor that we can't even afford to feed them because of the high cost of everything ... and also because we have to pay out a huge amount to cover the costs of having two maids and a driver, otherwise we females would not be able to cope with the day to day running of our lives, especially with the children, and playdates, and shopping expeditions, etc ... how would one possibly cope without them?! And let's not forget the huge expense of our husband's mistresses!

Our lives are so sad and depressing that we are all desperate to go back to our place of birth, throw away our passports, and never venture out of the country again ... why on earth would we want to?!

Our kid's educations are ruined as we apparently aren't allowed into ANY local schools because we can't speak cantonese, and the international schools don't have any places, so basically our kids are left to roam the streets all day and none of our children will ever have the opportunity to go to university;-)

Oh, and I mustn't forget to point out that we all have to use respirators because of the pollution. Why, or why, did we come here?!

I think that anyone considering such a move should seriously take note of the tens of thousands of expats already living here (some for many years), as a 'local' may not have such a great idea of an expats wants/needs/expectations ...

rititt 11 yrs ago

Malka, you put the kids in local schools for the Chinese language and to interact with local kids. Even though medium is English, it really sucks, almost none can speak properly except kids with western educated parents.

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

For spongebung, in case you haven't seen it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2404850/Hong-Kong-phooey-Regions-smog-bad-desperate-tourism-chiefs-set-posters-sunny-skyline-holidaymakers-nice-photos.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

And will only get worse...

Our landfills are set to reach capacity in the next couple/few years and our backward governments only plan is to build an incinerator on an outlying island.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1291486/bid-halt-shek-kwu-chau-incinerator-fails

Our country parks and beaches are trashed on a weekly basis with day tripper garbage because the HK mentality is to leave your rubbish for someone else (maid or gov employee) to clean up after you. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2012-11/13/content_15919977.htm

A recent 'beach clean up' operation in which students were charged to participate ended up leaving the collected bags of rubbish on the beach. Three weeks later, the remaining bags( a typhoon came a few days after the op and blew most of it into the sea) were photographed still on the beach. http://thehousenews.com/society/united-youth-beach-cleaning-gone-bad/

So, yes, maybe you should come live here for a year before the country gets lost under a mountain of smog and trash.

rititt 11 yrs ago

very good Ringo, your posting said it all. see if spongebung would like them. it said a lot. only in this part of the world that you can see that (i guess it's for the mainland tourists, they are so used to such a thing, the latest one was with the beijing olympics, where they fake the fireworks!). i don't think spongebung would want to pose in front of the fake skyline. it said it all in the difference of mentality and behaviour. so what could be for the rest of the day to day life? 5 to 10 people in a 500sq ft flat, that is the standard here, so imagine what is the standard for all the rest? and you compare that with Silicon Valley?

Joesec 11 yrs ago

Off the topic if no one minds too much...rititt, you mentioned expats not having the same mentality as Chinese/locals and how expats don't understand them - well more or less...out of curiosity to understand the Chinese mindset better, could you expand on that? I'm very interested to understand more about real Chinese/local thinking. Thanks.

rititt 11 yrs ago

Too long to explain. But think of this: do u think newyork, London or Paris, to draw tourists, would put a photo of statue liberty, Big Ben or Eiffel Tower if there were smog/fog?

rititt 11 yrs ago

SCMP today:

Photos of a small boy urinating into a rubbish bin in an upscale Canadian shopping mall have sparked a debate about standards of behaviour in the Vancouver satellite city of Richmond, North America’s most Chinese municipality.

The photos of the Asian boy, with his pants around his knees at the Richmond Centre mall, steadied by a woman as he stands on the rim of the bin, provoked a fierce reaction after they were posted by Twitter user Brandon Beavis.

rititt 11 yrs ago

SCMP 29august2013:

Girl upsets passengers by urinating inside MTR train

Passengers left shocked as child uses MTR carriage as a toilet and mother does nothing to stop her or clean up afterwards

rititt 11 yrs ago

those acts are mainly from mainland chinese but then nowadays, more and more of them integrated into HKG territory and with time will become HKG chinese and there won't be any difference. very wide spectrum, can't really distinguish the two categories nowadays.

rititt 11 yrs ago

SCMP 02April2013

Clip of couple allowing child to defecate on Hong Kong train goes viral

A video of a couple arguing with other passengers after they allowed their child to defecate in an MTR Corporation train compartment, went viral on social media Monday.

The minute-long clip taken by a bystander showed a man and a woman on the MTR East Rail refusing to get off the train, despite MTR staffers’ repeated pleas and passenger complaints that they were making the compartment smell.

They said they let their infant daughter defecate into a plastic bag because she had an upset stomach and “couldn’t go in the morning”.

The Cantonese-speaking couple had strong mainland accents and were carrying luggage and a baby stroller with them. The man claimed to be from Hong Kong.

rititt 11 yrs ago

SCMP 28august2013

Chinese passengers anger airline staff by refusing to hand over in-flight tableware

In the latest controversy involving Chinese tourists - a group of mainland travellers have upset Singapore Airlines staff by refusing to hand over 30 sets of stainless steel tableware during a recent flight, Chinese media reported.

It was only after repeated warnings from a tour guide that these passengers agreed to hand them back to flight attendants.

The Chinese passengers were on a tour of Singapore, Malaysia, and Thailand. While onboard the Singapore Airlines flight, they had intended to keep the stainless steel knives and forks provided during a meal, the Qianjiang Evening News reported on Tuesday.

rititt 11 yrs ago

there's also this story of a chinese who carved "I was here" on a 3,000 Egyptian wall in Luxor Temple.

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

Half full, half empty?

How about overflowing? HK is overpopulated. The cities are heaving with people and the small amount of remaining countryside is being built on by lawless developers and indigenous villagers because of some outdated small housing policy. Hoi Ha, one of our few(five) marine parks is facing a large housing development which looks to be going ahead.

If we continue to populate and build the way we are now, in a few years the only countryside left will be steep hills and the ocean. It's a great view from your ivory tower apartment window but not so good at ground level and for those that actually like to interact with the countryside.

HK is a tiny country and it cannot cope with the increasing demand for 'investment properties' because people want to make an easy buck.

Locals cannot afford a home, yet some people own ten properties and more. And as for the corporations and politicians...

One couple in my SK village bemoan the lack of space and the amount of current building yet they own nine properties...ridiculous...

Don't get me wrong. I love HK and it is/was a beautiful place. I don't agree with most of what Rititt has posted either, but he does seem to be the only one saying, "Hold on, think it through." Everyone else is just saying come on in, the water's fine...

I've been here(UK citizen) for 25 years. I honestly do not see HK as 'Chinese' anymore. Sure, the population is mostly Chinese but brought up on predominantly western style tv, western style schooling and shop at western style shops. Old/Chinese HK is going/gone. It has been replaced by the global generic city with all the economically viable and efficient crap that that brings.

If you want real Chinese, Spongebung, go to China...

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

I am admittedly biased towards the nature aspect of HK.

That is why I stayed, because it had a good balance between the country and the city, but now that balance has shifted significantly toward city.

If the population growth is so slow, why so many buildings? As I said, 'investment properties'...

Perhaps we are not overpopulated with people, just with concrete boxes, which are sat empty in many cases.

I wouldn't give you tuppence for the mindset/attitude of the average youth, local or otherwise.

Just this last weekend I stood behind a group of youths buying bbq supplies. New bbq forks, new metal tongs, plastic plates, cups and cutlery, plus condiments, honey and plastic bottled water and all wrapped up in plastic bags...100% certainty it would all end up in the bushes or in the bins, and from there into the landfill, which is already full as I previously mentioned. If that is HK's future...we've no chance...

I'll stop now. It's clear I'm bitter over the loss of what once was...

;)

rititt 11 yrs ago

let me remind you that HKG was a piece of rock colonised by the british who used land as their main source of income and the tradition continues with the transfer of sovereignty. and most of the people who filled this place are refugees, coming from china, first politically then commercially, trying their luck here (CY Leung came from China, sweeping the factory floor). Mentality is to strike it rich by whatever means (ICAC was later created to deal with corruption which was rampant at one time) and govermnment has no vision for the long term of this place which only until recently manage to raise some civility. everything is so temporary, many want to immigrate. up to now, there is no universal suffrage to elect the CE. It's not a country, it's more like a big city, where money is king and no social net. nowadways there is some realization that after all, they want to be part of a country, not a money making machine, so there are more demonstrations but still, this place is now part of China and freedom in every sense is not full.

What kind of an environment is that to raise children?

I want to repeat, most of you expats (the westerners, not the asian) live in a different and very priviledged world, in your own cocoon and you have no idea how the normal people in HKG live or I should say struggle to make a living. the rich are super rich and the poor really poor, wealth gap continues to increase, almost none could afford to purchase a flat to live in.

this is my last posting here, there is no point, it's 2 different world and we're talking 2 different language. but please don't continue to claim that you know the "real" HKG, it's not true, you only know the priviledged, the better side of HKG. For you to really understand is to live at least 1 month with a local family say 7 persons in a 500 sq ft and live the real day to day life and in cantonese because once you speak english, it would mean you are in your priviledged world and hence meet the priviledged ones. sure you could talk to your loca colleagues who know english but that doesn't mean you know how they live.

actually i think it is quite insulting to the locals. you cannot enjoy your garden and have all the luxury because of your privileged life as an expat and then say you know HKG and everything is good and enjoyable. tell this to the real locals. you should say that you don't know this world, you only know the expats world and that you are living as you live in a large city comparable to the west but that is not representative of real HKG but of the HKG expat world.

Ed 11 yrs ago

I don't think HK is so much different than most other places in terms of raising children... from what I see most kids in the west are raised on a diet of Paris Hilton, Dancing with Stars, reality TV, computer gaming, twitter, facebook, zero reading, and super sized everything....

I think parenting is far more important than the environment.

Kids schooled in HK get a broader education with kids from all over the world... this gives them a very different perspective....

Also there are plenty of things to do in HK - again if the parents get involved - lots of sporting activities... mountain biking, hiking, exploring the islands and villages, then of course there are so many other cultural adventures that are only a couple of hours flight away...

I don't see how raising a kid in Toronto or Sydney or LA would be better than HK...

Joesec 11 yrs ago

Well thank you for all the responses.

Loyd Grossman is Miss Venezuela 11 yrs ago

Rittit. Just for the record, I'm a UK expat and I lived for a long time in a 407 square foot (gross) flat with my local wife, my mother-in-law and my wife's grandmother plus a baby. We did it to save on rent. It was in a good part of town though. We also put or kids through local schools because a) we wanted them to be able to speak and read chinese and b) it saved us loads of money.

lawongster 11 yrs ago

As a fellow Bay Area resident who has previously lived in HK and Australia I can tell you that the benefits your children will derive from living abroad will far outweigh any of the negatives. Yes...it is different but different does not mean bad. Both of my kids are grown now (one just entered university and the other graduated a year ago). I can tell you that their overseas experiences made all of the difference in their education and outlook on life. Your children will have a much different perspective than the typical Silicon Valley/Bay Area child...not that I am putting down the kids who are educated here...but if you live in the Bay Area/South Bay you have certainly heard people talking about the "bubble" in which our children exist. I don't know the ages of your children but this experience --even if short term will open their eyes, hearts, and minds. Look at the International schools...don't limit yourself to the "American" curriculum. Such a great experience for your children--their world will be so much 'bigger"! This point was really driven home for me when my oldest graduated from university and had absolutely no qualms about accepting employment in Singapore. She was confidant about living in another part of the world. In the Bay Area I come across so many kids that are unwilling to leave their "city" or state of California much less the country. Embrace the opportunity...you will not be sorry.

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

And it gets worse...

http://thehousenews.com/society/town-planning-board-did-not-wait-for-paul-chan-to-destroy-the-sai-kung-country-parks/

Our recreational land is being given to developers so they can fatten their profit sheets even more.

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

And anybody wanting to move to 1990's Germany should take your post into account, Malka.

Ringo23 11 yrs ago

Call me stupid but I miss your point, Malka.

Please elaborate before I comment further.

woods99 11 yrs ago

My understanding is that parents should allow their children to play in a bit of dirt, from time to time, like kids do, without getting too paranoid about it. I was brought up in a very clean environment, my mum was a fanatic about hygeine. I know have pretty significant allergy problems, including asthma, and also arthritis.

This does not mean that it is in any way preferable to live in a place where there is significant atmospheric pollution, however.

Xshoequeen 11 yrs ago

To Spongebung,

Please don't decide on worries that your husband will catch yellow fever or not. It is not z criterion to choose a life time decision, I have worked in Tokyo/HK supporting expats to fit into the country and know what this yellow fever is about but, it really depends on the individual. What is severe about HK is, it reflects out all the problems of your marriage. But, many couples go through marriage counseling and get over it. My husband's company will disclaimer before sending anyone to Hong Kong, it is great for the guys but, listen to your wives and families. HK has it's unique dynamics for business, thus, people tend to get caught up in it. It's easier if the other partner has his or her social connection. Please decide on basis if YOU are prepared to enter a small community where news travels fast.

Children's school : true it's tight but, I am sure you will find a place, please look up the site TopSchools and contact them. I have heard that they have really been hel

Xshoequeen 11 yrs ago

Sorry, it flew away for some reason.

Children's school, TopSchools, I know quite a lot of people who got their help. BUT, as a mother, please think what you want. HK is a melting pot where your children can meet different people etc, but, at the same time, International school means that you and your children will be in this enclosed society where majority of the families are well off. It is true that children are about home/family education but, there are things that u will face off guard. The classmates your children will be with 1,2 helpers, driver, being blonde is a status in HK, believe it or not, basically, privilidged.

That said, my 2 preschoolers have just transferred to a proper international school as we are an international assignment family so we needed the IB background but, if I didnt have to worry about that, I wouldn't have hesitated to put my children in a local international school. I think it's a good medium of the host country.

Pollution, I hate to say this but, I think it's bad. Also, the humidity does not help. The schools have rigid guidelines to refrain from school as if one child has a virus, it spreads to the whole HK. As someone mentioned, it gets worse in winter. But, there are places that are better within HK.

Please make this decision whether it will match your planned life style, how you want your children to broaden.

silviofisher 11 yrs ago

the education at international schools are really bad here, when you do end up moving back to the US, your kids will need loads of support to bridge the gap between HK and US even when they are on the same system.

you might not be able to get into a US/ UK system school here which will just mess up your kids education.

dont do it!

selda 11 yrs ago

I am European and have been living in HK for 18 years. I can tell you that the quality of life is going down the drain due to increased air and water pollution, traffic, overcrowding (40 million Chinese tourists cross the border every year!) environmental degradation everywhere you look. Obviously there are people who value their social status and money more than health (both mental and physical). As i am not one of them, i have chosen to spend 6 months a year out of HK (my permanent home) just to breathe and recharge my batteries. Yes, HK does take its toll on your health, especially in the long run.

HK used to be breath-takingly beautiful, but not anymore. Even the most remote beaches are covered in trash, the famous pink dolphins have been decimated by pollution, sea water and air is heavily polluted by factories in the Pearl River Delta (an environmental disaster!) road and marine traffic emissions have increased dramatically.

The population of HK was less than 6 million when i moved here, now it's over 7 million. And i am not counting the million of tourists from the mainland, who have completely changed the face of HK. I used to like HK high density, as it added vibrancy to streetlife. Now it's unbearable. The combination of taller buildings and narrow streets means that car fumes are trapped, and walking at steet level has become extremely unpleasant. Most food is imported from mainland China, a country with an appalling record in terms of food safety.

I haven't got children but if i did, i wouldn't live here. In winter i have breathing problems, feel lethargic and have developed cronic bronchitis and a skin rash. After one month in Europe all my health problems disappear. Not a coincidence! Lethargy, cronic bronchitis and skin rashes have all been linked to air pollution.

Xshoequeen 11 yrs ago

Selda, I have heard this numerous times when I talk to people that where here 20 years ago and I really wish I could have seen Hong Kong then! I sometimes watch the "Noble House" when Hong Kong life beats me up to enjoy HongKong as it used to be!

OP,

I have no idea of what my children will turn out to be but, I think it is a generic rule to find a school that your child is comfortable in and how you as a parent is comfortable with other parents' life style. Even if you stick in your child in the top academic school here, if your child does not like it, or if you as a parent is uncomfortable with the school, you can't demand results.

I think it's more of a question, are you ready to make the most out of limited resources? Because Hong Kong do have limited resources but! everyone here is enjoying making compromise.

selda 11 yrs ago

xshoequeen,

so many places i loved have disappeared. Central has become so terribly boring, all shops sell the same stuff aimed at wealthy mainlanders, HK has been turned into one big shopping mall. Old buildings have been torn down and replaced by cookie-cutter skyscrapers and tower blocks, lacking any design feature that would make them stand out. Even HK urbanscape, so mindblowing in the 80s and 90s has become terribly banal. HK has lost its edge, even HK film directors like Wong Kar-wai have to shoot in other Asian cities to find some interesting urban settings.

The New Territories and outlying islands, still wild and green 10 years ago, are now a chaotic sprawl of ugly 'village houses' covered in pink orsh*t-colour bathroom tiles, are scarred by countless dumping sites.

The alternative scene has almost disappeared. Now most bars have no character, charge inflated prices, play loud commercial music and cater for banker-types (and wannabes) with fat wallets and little taste.

Yes, HK was a most unique and inspiring place, a place i loved immensely. Cities age like people, some age well some don't. I am still here, but i wish i could leave. IMHO, HK's golden days are over.

Xshoequeen 11 yrs ago

Wow! Even the N.T's have changed... I've only been here 6 years so really didn't realize it as we thought SaiKung old town was a sanctuary for us!!!! I wish I can have tea with you to ask you more and see photos from then!

I really agree that HK should think of building their own characteristic rather than competing being a mega city. I really enjoy the interaction with the local people on odd occasions I am granted and cannot be amazed how strong yet kind they are.

&&& 11 yrs ago

Selda, bmurv, I largely agree with almost everything you have written.

I have lived in UK, US, Singapore, and HK. Am familiar with all the dynamics at work regarding children's education in these countries and the outcome of their chances of college/univ applications in this increasingly competitive world.

Just want to add a few words : HK will have more than 7M people. Some (govt) figure said 9M. Unfortunately, I can't recall source nor the "yr by", but sure it will pop up again.

On days when it's China's national holidays eg Chinese NY, National Week Oct 1-7, HK has much less pollution, can see blue skies. That's because the factories are on vacation. But sadly, most days we see and breath a yellowish grey haze above.

When the Rail link to China is completed in 2016 (?), HK will be a zoo. There will be MORE visitors into HK. And the Pearl River Bridge will deliver the driving public into HK.

Judging from how HK has governed herself post '97, HK govt lacks the expertise to do longterm planning. Hence long term policy planning. Probably due to the fact that all longterm planning used to be done by Downing St, in the last century. Hence it is now govt from one crisis to another; from one protest-march to another. China's not so subtle meddling notwithstanding.

Ultimately HK will be just a city in China, not the flagship. Let's hope it's a Chicago and not a Kansas City (though never been there, just a figure of speech, nothing against Kansas).

HK people are extremely unhappy about the increasing, but subtle lost of freedom of expression which is the golden edge that has stood HK apart from any other cities in China. So, given a chance to emigrate, those with young families will consider it seriously. All the problems with pollution, difficulties in entering top elite local kindergartens etc are relevant but most damaging is the Freedom issue.

All that has digressed from the original posting..... Just some macro views to consider when considering the future of HK.

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