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Thursday, 9/18/2014

My MPF payment

POSTED BY weric (6 yrs ago)

I worked for a company in Hong Kong for around two years.
During this time I was under the impression and told that the company paid 5% and I paid 5% into my MPF scheme.
When I finished with them it has transpired that they paid nothing into it. Not from my wages or their contribution.
They now say that I need to pay 5% of my total earning from this time into it and that they do too.
They also say that they will not pay their 5% until I have paid my 5%.

1) I was under the impression that my 5% was deducted from my wages and paid in to my MPF.

2) Surely whether I have paid it or not, they should put the 5% in that they owe me.

What is going on?
What am I to do?
This has been a very long time now since I was employed by them and I think thy are just trying to put it off.
I want my money!

#1 POSTED BY spurs (6 yrs ago)

absolutely report them to the MPFA. see this link http://www.mpfa.org.hk/english/enforc/enforc.html
An employer who fails to enrol his employees into an MPF scheme is liable to a maximum penalty of a fine of $350,000 and imprisonment for three years

#2 POSTED BY weric (6 yrs ago)

Ty

is it true that you are allowed to claim back your MPF one time only as foreigner working in Hong Kong?
I was then told that you can start your MPF again from 0.
If you leave HK and claim your MPF a second time you won't be allowed back to work.
Is this true and if so does it effect your chances of residency?

#3 POSTED BY dasia (6 yrs ago)

You can only claim your MPF if you leave HK. If you return and contribute to the MPF scheme again you cannot redraw a second time until you reach the age of 65 (or thereabouts).

The MPF does not affect your chances of residency or work permit access.

#4 POSTED BY funbobby (6 yrs ago)

of course that's all moot since everyone's MPF portfolio is now basically at zero (or heading there quickly) anyway lol

#5 POSTED BY weric (6 yrs ago)

That sounds good! Maybe I should make it 50% of my earnings or more?

(hang on, I get it now: 5% of your relevant income, subject to a maximum income level of $20,000 a month (or $240,000 a year)

#6 POSTED BY SweetSue (6 yrs ago)

The MPF is the biggest scam ever to hit HK right up there with Bernie's schemening, letting some losing gamblers punting your retirement savings away.

#7 POSTED BY D-Man (6 yrs ago)

Dont forget as a forigner your employer does not have to enroll your for the first 12 months so you are really only talking about the second years contibutions.....(but maybe your ex employer does not know that).

#8 POSTED BY LeeLisaLee (5 yrs ago)


"The MPF is the biggest scam ever to hit HK right up there with Bernie's schemening, letting some losing gamblers punting your retirement savings away."
~ SweetSue

SweetSue, I could not have said it better myself, this MPF thing is a complete SCAM !!!! It's a blatant scam perpetrated by the HK Government to escape from its civil responsibility of helping HK Citizens. What have they done; Forced, made it mandatory by law for companies and employees to pay them their own hard earned cash to support their own gambling needs. This they claim is how a citizen of HK is to base their retirment upon... What kind of ridiculous lunacy is this concept based on....simple answer, avoid any committment by the HK Government to its citizens, legally defraud companies and emplyees of their funds for playing the markets, at no risk, and with constant cash replenishment, all under the guise of a pension scheme... Absolutely fraudulent and abhorrent behaviour....

I've actually had enough being scammed, not that I ever considered this MPF thing to be of any use whatsoever, even if I did decide to continue supplying my cash for this thing, when I retire, I should have around HK$500K from contributions, which would be halved for gambling losses and administrative deductions leaving HK$250K for the rest of my life in retirement. Cool, thats my 1 sq ft of pavement secured for living and I'd have change for, you know, stuff like food and water etc... Freakin' farce....

Anyway, rant over, decided to stop contributing to the Governments "My Play Fund" or any other HK based Play funds "ORSO" and restart my real Pension Scheme overseas where I can really plan for my retirement in a trustworthy, honest and reliable manner. My company will support me for this and is also delighted to get away from these fraudulent MPF affairs.

It's just a matter of time before the Hong Kong Government will be taken to task for blatantly cheating, defrauding and blackmailing its citizens through this SCAM... So glad I'm not them....

#9 POSTED BY kneworld (5 yrs ago)

I wonder if any tabs have been down on the amounts of savings lost during this "FC" with out MPF's. I've had a few (number) of jobs here over the last years since the MPF was implicated and the highest paying job I had just before the downturn after 9/11 and that MPF fund is deducting sums every month from my account because I am not contributing to it any more, and these were my hard earned savings and meager profits of the company I was working for at the time. Thanks to the Gov't and the MPF for their Ponzie SCAM they are only making More Poor Fxxkers

#10 POSTED BY christian_moore (5 yrs ago)

I am not sure that I agree the entire concept of the MPF is a scam but I think the government should enforce the MPF companies to apply the absolute minimum charges possible and not the usual ripoff 3%+ that fund management companies try to charge.

Where I do find it silly is that they say you can not take it out until you turn 65 because this is supposed to be a retirement fund, now what is to stop Mr Wong and Chan who turn 65 today taking their $500k on a little sojourn to Macau and blowing the whole lot at roulette. Then they will come back with empty pockets and the HK government will still need to give them handouts. An option could be that the governent buys your MPF off you at retirement time and in return provides an annuity at an above average rate.


#11 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

Weric, do you have any MPF record that once in a while you received while you are a member? If you have the MPF account no., then you can double check with your Company MPF provider because this is mandatory obligation of the company. If you report this to the MPF authority, obviously, your company will be in trouble.

However, If you and your company did not contribute for the past 2 years, then you have to pay back the total 5% of the earnings you worked for them, in order that your company can pay the total 10% supposed to be contributed for the past 2 years to MPF. Then, if you are decided to leave Hong Kong for good, then you can take all the 10% from your MPF provider.

If your company did not contribute for the past 2 years and now you are complaining to your company, it is possible that you can negotiate with your company to just give back the 5% x24 months of your earnings because your company has to explain to MPF why they did not contribute on your behalf. And it is too much trouble for your company as well. So I think better try to negotiate with your company.





#12 POSTED BY LeeLisaLee (5 yrs ago)

Yes, the MPF is a SCAM; Think about it, we are forced to pay into this thing, we do not have a choice, we cannot say no, it is not an option, it is Mandatory !!

Now, if the Hong Kong Government's intention for this was to actually provide for its citizens retirement, then, as a bare minimum it should:

~ Guarantee the principle contribution amount at retirement age. i.e. if we're being forced to give them 2k per month, meaningless as it would be, we still want this minimum back !!

This would actually be something of value and would show that the HK Government was actually honestly trying to provide for its citizens through effective risk management for Mandatory investments.

You see, if this was suggested to the HK Government, oh wow, there would so many, no ways, impossible, we'd have to provision for blah, blah, blah etc... Simply proving that it has zero intention of actually seeking to provide for its citizens retirement AND also proving that this is a scam through demonstrating their confidence levels in its performance. If they believed it would work, this would not be a problem.

They are simply using this MPF Scam as an opt out of any accountability, commitment or contribution by diverting all responsibility to the people keeping them in their jobs without actually doing anything at all towards serving the public interest.

Hmm, time to get a job in the Government, I know in most countries its better to be unemployed rather than being tarred as a civil servant, but here, if you're in the clan, you get all sorts of freebies, housing subsidies & stuff, you get paid far above the rate for your station, you can't be made redundant AND, this is classic, you won't be forced to pay anything to MPF, you contribute to the Government Pension Scheme....great stuff...

#13 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

LeeLisaLee, when you say you are now using an Overseas Pension Scheme what type of pension is this ?

#14 POSTED BY LeeLisaLee (5 yrs ago)

I have a couple of Pension Schemes overseas plus National Retirement Pension, which and importantly qualifies for exemption from any further scam payments.

I think there's a list of the pension schemes which can qualify for exemption from the scam, you could ask the MPFA, give them something to do....

Now, the fun starts, trying to get my money out of the scam...should be interesting...

#15 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

ORSO can qualify for exemption from the 'scam'.

Surely if you can get exemption from the 'scam' then it's not a 'scam'

It would be good to know more about this Overseas Pension Scheme what additional benefits does it offer that can not be benefited from under either MPF or ORSO ?

As far as i am aware there is not much available in Hong Kong that is more secure or tax efficient than MPF or ORSO.

#16 POSTED BY christian_moore (5 yrs ago)

Guys

I still don't see how this is a scam !!. You pay in a $1,000 a month which I am sure for most of us who use this forum is not an arm and a leg, this $1,000 is a night out in LKF.

I paid in since 2001 about $90,000 and now have over $180,000, before the markets dropped it was $260,000. I have still doubled my money, the part lost in the markets in the employer portion which will come back later when the markets improve. This is money I would not have had if I had not been forced to pay it.

If this is a scam bring on some more

#17 POSTED BY DaHKGKid (5 yrs ago)

Guys, how the MPF values looking after the stock market runs. May have to cash in after this Bear market rally?

#18 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

well pretty good actually i'm up nearly 100% from value about 3 or 4 months ago.

rally clearly unsustainable but as far as scams go it's looking not too bad.

#19 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

Management charges are not obscenely high. I would agree that they could be made slightly cheaper. However other individual products (expecially those contractual insurance ones) available in the market place are 3 or 4 times more expensive.

MPF is extremely cost effective in comparison to them and more secure and tax efficient.

Additionally most people only make the minimum payments of HK$1,000 into MPF. You can make additional contributions into most MPF scheme's and get this money back out again if you need it with no penalty or withdrawal fee applied - again this is unlike most inidividual insurance plans that investors tend to favour in HK.

You can also switch into Bonds funds or lower risk funds if you wish so you are able to move out of the stockmarket if you so wish.

#20 POSTED BY bing2 (5 yrs ago)

leelisalee, what kind of retirement plan do you have now? mpf is definitely a scam. financial instutitions make their money no matter what while hk citizen may get wiped out of their retirement fund. is there any other way to go around this mpf as an employer and employee?

#21 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

I do not believe MPF is a scam. For me, I believe this is very good idea because the employers are also forced to give you also 5% extra savings. For the kind of company I am working, if without this mandatory obligation , it is impossible for my company to increase the salary. And at this moment, better make sure to put your fund in guaranteed fund to make sure that it is very safe. I know many friends of mine, they never checked their funds and lost about 20k to 30 k before they realized that their money is almost finished.

#22 POSTED BY alas9495 (5 yrs ago)

Goodness me we have so many paranoid people. The MPF or 401K or RRSP are simply a way for employees t take on a bit of forced savings so when they get to retirement age they are not pennyess and have to rely on the state for their well being...and this is why the state is involve to ensure that they have some money...if institutions are gouging then that's up to you to complain to the institution or the state whatch dog but it's not a government scam

#23 POSTED BY kaileyb (5 yrs ago)

weric - I went thru this exact same thing with my past employer. And while the MPA is helpful, at the end of the day, they are wusses. And the whole bit about the fine and the jail time is a load of bull. If your employer is willing to reimburse the MPF they owe you, the MPFA are not willing to prosecute, even if they know your employer broke the law. That's what happened in my case anyway.

And I found out when I tried to transfer my MPF to a new fund, my past employer had outstanding fees that were not paid and the MPFA did nothing to help me. I had to contact the CFO at my old company and he helped me (thank god I was still on good terms with him)

The MPFA office is in IFC One, and you will have to call them to make an appointment. Good Luck

#24 POSTED BY DaHKGKid (5 yrs ago)

Well, my MPF has come back quite a bit from its lows and find it just down 15% or so from the highs. We are leaving so the question is cash it in before we see the relapse or just leave it in HK for a 5 year min and see a moderate return.

I am quite frankly looking to cash in now and re-invest is something that I can self direct.

Any comments?

#25 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

If you are leaving for good, then maybe it would be better to cash in, to control it and put in safe investment. But now a days, we really do not know which investment or business is safe.

However, for everybody who says that the company is not contributing, I think you have to check your MPF contributions everymonth online to make sure your company is contributing regularly and also you can check everynow and then if you are loosing money or gaining money from your MPF funds.

#26 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

Beancurd, you insight into what you would deem a safe investment would be useful?

#27 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

Do you mean the MPF fund? Better put it in 100% guaranteed fund. Because now it is very risky to put in the other funds. My friends lost too much money because she put some of her funds in the risky fund. The guaranteed fund has no interest at all but at least you can sleep well.

#28 POSTED BY DaHKGKid (5 yrs ago)

what kind of advice is that beancurd?

there is no guarantee on any fund even if it is a Currency 3-6-9 month guaranteed rate at X which is now being offered in abundance that the currency you hold could be off easily by more than the rate offered.

You need to stay hedged in any liquid source, stocks or currencies or gold or anything that can be traded moved abandoned quickly. If you have assets such as a home or car you should be dumping it due to deflation.

You should be taking the value of money back from renting over owning to stuff money in your pockets and paying off any debt you have. Lean, mean and flush is tomorrows best play.

#29 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

Beancurd,

the reason i asked my question to you was because i fully anticpated your answer. Buying a guaranteed fund (and i use that word with scepticism) would make sense at the top of the market i.e. when Hang Seng was 33,000. BUT buying a guaranteed fund is of little use once losses have already been taken.

What happens when Hang Seng goes back up to 30,000 does you friend by into equities again. Or are they never going to buy equities ever again?

Also how old is your friend? with no investment return you have no hedge against inflation which is also risky if you have 30 years to go until retirement and inflation sky rockets to 25%. You would then sell your 'guaranteed' fund and be able to buy a couple of tins of beans with the proceeds in 30 years time.

You would want to be in equities to make some investment return which i assume is the reason that your friend was originally in equities before you friend 'lost too much money'

Also you can buy low risk funds within MPF so you can have a level of guarantee within that structure.

What if the guaranteed fund turned out NOT to be guaranteed. AKA Lehman Minibonds. What happens then ? It would have been safer to buy the Hang Seng at 15,000 than buy Lehman Mini's.

#30 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

I am not in a position to give any advise about other investment or funds. But if it is about the MPF fund, better put it in 100% guaranteed preservative fund.

#31 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

Why should MPF funds be viewed in a different way from any other investment fund?

#32 POSTED BY beancurd (5 yrs ago)

Our Mpf provider is HSBC and if you check your account, you can see different funds to put your money. The HSBC offered different funds where you can divide your MPF, put in high risk or guaranteed and before, many people making money out of it but now, they almost lost their money. But I have chosen the guaranteed one which does not make interest at all but at least I prefer to be safe. The HSBC MPF officer informed me that this investment will not make money but this is only guaranteed that you can get your money when you retire.





#33 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

ok then please refer to my earlier post about the risks of inflation. This erodes purchasing power meaning when you retire you will not be able to afford much with you money. anyway we're going round in circles.

#34 POSTED BY mastermagic (5 yrs ago)

It depends on where you are in your career cycle in HK. If you have many, many years of work ahead of you. The wise choice is to invest in a equities fund spreading over many sectors and regions.

You are buying things cheap now, even if the stock market is or is not about to fall.

In 10-15-20 years later, you should be on top.


However, if you see that your career in HK is about to end. Retirement, Retrenchment or Leaving HK, you have to consider whether you will withdraw your mpf.

If so, you might consider keeping it in a guaranteed fund or low risk fund.

#35 POSTED BY DaHKGKid (5 yrs ago)

Hello All, once initiated, how long does the process take to get the MPF balance transferred over to you?

#36 POSTED BY qpzmgh (5 yrs ago)

assuming all paperwork is in should be done and dusted within 3 weeks.

#37 POSTED BY mastermagic (5 yrs ago)

DaHKGkid,

My friend just left HK and he told me it takes approx. 1 month for the Fund Manager to deposit the amount into his bank account.

It might be different for each fund manager though.

#38 POSTED BY DaHKGKid (5 yrs ago)

thanks, good time to begin the process as I believe we are testing new market lows in the next 3-4 weeks time. Gotta get out while the bubble re-inflates due to euphoria!


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