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MONEY MONEY MONEY
Posted by Innocence (131 days ago)
Seems that is all Hong Kong is about so let's talk about it, who do you know makes the most and what do they do and how do they spend/waste it?
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Posted by Norman Bates (131 days ago)
The property mafia makes the most.
Their wives spend the most.
When you are absurdly rich you find out soon that there really isn't that much you can do with all that money.
And after a while the excitement of 'having everything' wears off.
If money is the only thing that drives you, it usually ends up with alcohol, drugs, divorce, depression and utter unhappiness.
Posted by dadda (131 days ago)
Most people I know (based on where we live, schools the kids go to etc,) earn about HK$120k p/m. That is a range of traders, bankers, warehouse managers & a school principal. I am a banker & earn that - pay my own school (3 kids), housing (southside apartment), cars, health insurance, holidays, trips back home etc, etc. The school principal I know gets about HK$70k p/m, free schooling for 2 kids, free (nice) house, medical & good pension. The warehouse manager I know (from US) gets about HK$60k p/m AND free housing (HK$80k p/m) schooling (2 kids), trips home & medical. I know a salesman (technology) earns about HK$60k, plus housing (HK$70k), car & trips home.
These numbers seem great, and I am sure many will come online & tell me we are all stinking rich - BUT I can assure you when you have 3 or more children in HK, all have to go to International school as cannot speak Cantonese and you (as a parent) want to ensure ativities for the kids (to make up for not having backyard & pool at home) the money does not stretch that far.
Basically as the banker in the group I am comparable (low side) to the warehouse manager, salesman & school principal...
Hope that gives some perspective.
Posted by dbg (131 days ago)
"I was part of that strange race of people aptly described as spending their lives doing things they detest to make money they don't want to buy things they don't need to impress people they dislike."
Posted by iamexpat (131 days ago)
I have to agree with dadda, I don't think you are rich at all. I also am a financial professional and make the same 120k p/m and my wife a about a quarter of that. We each just get cash and have to look after our own housing and the kids education. I have to say I am sometimes envious of all the expats that have their housing and kids education paid for, but on the other hand most of those jobs are relatively transient and my wife and I have chosen to make Hong Kong our home for now.
We were doing our budgeting a few nights ago and we keep thinking that we should be saving more than we are but with a 10 year mortgage on a south side apartment, a car, a maid, schooling and holidays (to cheap places around asia) its not as much as we think it should be. We do not lead a decadent expat lifestyle but any imagination and we do manage to put aside money each month but HK$150k p/m just does not go as far as one thinks it should. Thank god we have such low taxes here.
I think that's one of the reason's why people talk about money so much around here, half the population has a median income of about Hk$10,500 p/m so they hardly have two nickels to rub together and want money and those that do have money find that it really does not go as far because of the high price of real estate. I know money is common topic of conversation among my buddies as we all want to provide as best we can for our families even if, to use dbg words we are "spending [our] lives doing things [we] detest."
Posted by dadda (131 days ago)
I certainly do not 'detest'y life. I love my life, I love my family, I LOVE Hong Kong. I would never think of moving anywhere else. This is my home now & even though it is expensive, we love the life. We are renting, and once one of our children moves to Uni we will hopefully be able to aford to buy & pay off the mortgage. As for monthly savings? Huh - not on HK$120k. But luckily I do get a commission cheque every 6 months (as long as clients keep trading) and we do our bet to put that away.
Posted by gill2008 (131 days ago)
dadda & iamexpat,
What's the magic that allows you to earn 120K a month? I mean, I am not even a quarter to what you earn and yes I have difficulties in trying to save some money...you cannot even take the next step without money....
The crave for money is endless...
Posted by cara (131 days ago)
hubby and i combined earn well less than $120K... that is a DREAM we have one day... not of the actual money, but what we can do with it.
we could save.
we could take holidays that don't take us 2 years to pay for.we could send our children to international school.
we could get through the month without worrying if we will have enough to cover all of our expenses...
must be nice. not stretching too far... i would be happy to earn that much and try to stretch it a little further.
the thing about money... no one EVER thinks they have enough.
Posted by mbbcat (131 days ago)
majority on HK earn HK$20-30 per hour!
Want to make HK work for you ? Want to get rich ? - easy each family member earn as much as possible & live like locals do - 10 people in a 250 sq ft flat, only shop in the fresh markets, do a 3rd or 4th job & study in your spare time for yet another professional qualification / degree, meanwhile pool the family resources to buy a flat per year or 2 & let it out.
Posted by christian_moore (130 days ago)
What is the point in owning several flats and living squalor just to save for more.
As for studying for more professional qualifications, I find that pointless for most locals. You spend a fortune on getting an MBA and you are just another local with an MBA and you have increased your earning capacity by maybe a couple of thousand per month.
For locals wanting to earn more money and get out the poverty trap they need to master English, they will earn far more as a very good English speaker and writer with average qualifications than they will ever earn as a local with an MBA but with average HK English.
I have seen this many many times, besides all those qualifications doesn't mean you can think out of the box. The next step is to stop supporting all the family members, until this tradition ends the younger ones will never get ahead.
Just my 2 cents worth
Posted by mbbcat (130 days ago)
The point is simple - to be independently wealthy & have choices NOT to go into an old age farm at the end of your days, get the medicines you need when you need them not a year later etc etc
Those from a welfare nanny state sometimes seem to forget what life is about
True good language skills will help, as will every penny - let alone a `few thousand extra per month ( a fortune to many, beer money to others)
As for not supporting the family - well who looks after the bad times - sickness, unemployment, old age etc ? HK is great in that it allows people to keep the majority of what they earn, the other side of the deal is that one must be self reliant & responsible fit & able bodied, employed - great, no problem - BUT what happens if not ? - The family support is crucial & is a 2 way street.
Overall its a fair deal, parents give up so much to care for kids, then later the boot is on the other foot & the piper must be paid.
Posted by MJ1 (130 days ago)
I agree getting an MBA doesn't guarantee you'll make a bucket load of money. However, I don't agree mastering English will. Being an expat doesn't guarantee you're a master of English, quite the contrary in some cases.
Given we are in HK, I would believe it is more important to master Mandarin and have a competent level of English and Cantonese to go with it. China is the future.
Posted by orangemoon (130 days ago)
I would say, enough money is very subjective..one can be comfortable in less than what is mentioned in above posts, and interestingly, one can be uncomfortable in substantial money..it graetly depends upon the life style...and needs and wants
I earn much less than the above mentioned but I consider myself as comfortable...
Dont get me wrong, I pay for my child's international school fee, my husband earning is very erratic..I also save for the rainy day...
One thing would be interesting to know, what is considered as a good saving?
Posted by delightful (130 days ago)
Hi iamexpat
I'm impressed that you are able to owe an apartment in the southside ,send your kids to international schools and do all the other things you mentioned.I'm just starting to look at buying a property and can do with some advice.Which bank to use,what's the interest on mortgage.BTW,how much did you pay for your apartment?I'll love to own a property there but even on a pay of $150k/month,it seems to be out of my budget.
Posted by vzbtech (130 days ago)
Ohhhh my goodness!!!! that much money ppl are actually making??? !!!!!
and i thought being an Xpat Telecom Engineer i am making most (35000HKD pm) hehhehehehhe.crazy crazy..still i need to go far ....very faar.
Posted by Innocence (130 days ago)
A friend of ours was making over US$750,000 per year when he was 27, he was working for an investment bank, he had computer and finance degrees and was not an income producer, quite a feat
Posted by christian_moore (130 days ago)
MJ1
When I was saying mastering English, I didn't mean being an absolute master of the language, I merely meant being fairly native sounding. There are companies out there that will pay locals who speak very very good English a decent salary based on this because they can competently sell to both the local market and the expat market. There are thousands of locals who speak great English but not so many that speak like a Native (when they are not), those who do are often well rewarded for the time they have spent immersing themselves in an overseas language and culture to get this good.
As far as mastering Mandarin, yes if you are non Chinese, mastering Mandarin could pay huge dividends.
in regards to mbbcat's reply, I agree parents deserve something back but not the obligatory handouts that parents expect here. I work with guys who have little chance to ever afford their own flat because their parents expect 1/3 of their salary every month regardless of whether they lived at home or not. Having kids is not an insurance policy, if you can't afford to have children and do your best by them without expecting a return on the investment later don't have them to begin with.
Saying this, of course if my son won the lottery in 20 years I would expect a nice envelope to come my way
Posted by mbbcat (130 days ago)
It is NOT imperative to buy into the most expensive real estate on the planet, just to own a home in HK Just as there are decent schools for all tastes & budgets, there are perfectly serviceable apartments & village houses that could be bought with very few years salary at the figures mentioned - just widen your location search & criteria - you may be pleasantly surprised
Posted by orangemoon (129 days ago)
To vzbtech,
Thats why ignorance sometimes is so very blissful.....
Posted by iamexpat (129 days ago)
Delightful:
There are a variety of places on the southside of the island. Not everything is $50 million dollar 3-4,000 square foot pieces of property.
Starting from the West the Scenic Villa, Baguio Villa and Bel Air Residences are all in a nice neighbourhood and likely in the $6,500 to $10,000 per square foot range I would guess.
Skip Wah Fu and Aberdeen as they are not so nice, although I would believe relatively cheap. I'm not overly fond of Ap Lei Chau although I believe that a number of expat teachers live in South Horizons and I would imagine those places would be less than $5 million.
Not sure if it is considered South but Shousson Hill would be next, places there tend to be fairly large and expensive, and out of my price range. The same could be said of Deep Water Bay.
Continuing along Repluse Bay has some huge expensive places but there are a few buildings that are not are not quite as expensive, especially those going up Repluse Bay road towards Wong Ngai Chung gap.
The buildings around Middle Bay and South Bay are not too bad for price either.
Then finally in the east there is Chung Hom Kok , Stanley and Tai Tam all of which have some flats in the $10 million range.
Obviously on $150K per month there are a lot of properties on the South Side that are out of reach. When we decided to buy we were fortunate enough to have a sizable amount of money to put towards the purchase price so that allowed us to have a managable mortgage for us and with a 2.1% rate of interest fou our 10 year mortgage we only have to pay $50,000 per month or 1/3 of our income. We also decided to sacrifice some size for ownership so while we could be living in a 2,000 sq ft + place if we were renting we decided to have something a little smaller but have ownership at the end as opposed to just paying rent (although I understand the economic arguement that renting could be better than owning in the long run here).
Basically to summerize if you can afford to buy a place for between $7-14 million there are a number of places on a Southside. I don't know if there is much available that would meet western requirements, both sizewise and neighbourhood wise for less than that.
Posted by dipper (129 days ago)
Whether Hong Kong is all about money is, of course, entirely up to you.
For reference, here is the income distribution from the last by-census in 2006.
Monthly income - Percentage of population
< 1,000 - O.8%
1,000 - 1,999 - 1.2%
2,000 - 3999 - 9.7%
4,000 - 5,999 - 9.8%
6,000 - 7,999 - 13.8%
8,000 - 9,999 - 12.5%
10,000 - 14,999 - 20.7%
15,000 - 19,999 - 10.6%
20,000 - 24,999 - 6.7%
25,000 - 39,999 - 7.9%
40,000 and over - 6.3%
You can get the full report here: http://www.bycensus2006.gov.hk/FileM...06bc_hhinc.pdf
Posted by MarathonHK (129 days ago)
I m always surprised by these stats.. Only 15% of the population earns more than 25k HKD yet the only cars you see around here are "at least" Mercedes and BMWs..
Posted by ziggity (129 days ago)
In HK having a car is a true luxury, most people don't own cars... which means these stats and the types of cars around shouldn't be too surprising...
Posted by MarathonHK (129 days ago)
you re right on that ziggity.. Just checked and there are roughly 350k private cars so basically so basically close to the percentage of residents with income over 40k.
Posted by tpol (129 days ago)
MarathonHK,
I know people earning $30K / mth who goes and buys a new 5 series BMW. He tells me people look up to him when they see him in it.
But if you look at the 2nd hand market, some of the luxury cars a quite cheap.
For the locals out there who read this, try working for expats rather than for a local boss.
Of course, it means a good command of English but from what I have found, the expats finds the local salaries extremely low, especially when compared to their own salaries and the salaries from their home countries.
The chinese bosses tends to be stingy and thinks your local salary is high.
When I first arrived, I earned $30K/mth. Compared to home, it was high and I was very happy. Then changed jobs to an expat boss and he basically doubled my salary.
Posted by hkjazz (128 days ago)
Hubby and I combined earn well under $100k. We pay for 2 children to go to International School, housing, car and afford to go o/s twice a year and we can still save some on the side. Not a lot admittedly but to those of you earning $150k please don't complain about how it doesn't stretch far enough for you. You are living many people's dream including mine!! We live very very comfortably on our income so I would have to disagree that you aren't living a decadent lifestyle. I could live very decadently indeed on $150k!!! You are very lucky indeed.
Posted by Ringo23 (127 days ago)
I get 10k pm and that's just enough to get by with my two dogs.
More cash would be very nice...I could use it to pay for the new dogs micro chip and de-sexing...but what I really want is the proper use of my legs and back again.
2 years off sick with 24hr back pain is no fun. Had surgery via public health but that was only partially successful.
Wealth is good but health is oh so much better.
Posted by dipper (127 days ago)
Absolutely, Ringo. Hope you get back to full health soon.
Posted by evildeeds (127 days ago)
It's all relative. Everyone has a choice. The "we have kids" thing is a smokescreen - there are other ways to save money - if, and only if, people want to.
When I first came here I gave everything up and myself and my wife lived on around $15,000 per month. Wasn't a kings lifestyle but was fun and we got out often. In fact was one of the best times of our lives.
Once I started my own business and saw our income go up of course there were other things we were able to afford. By the time I got to paying myself $50,000/month well I could save $30k no problem. We weren't paying a fortune for rent but we had kids and car and plenty of other luxuries.
Since then my income has increased by xFold but my expenses in relation to that have not. There are reasons for this including where I live, eat, drink, socialise, etc. I could live south side if I wanted to but chose not to, I love where I am and it's closer to where "I work" and I have more money to both enjoy and invest. We all have choices. That's what it's all about
Posted by Fieter (125 days ago)
Someone posted this:
"What is the point in owning several flats and living squalor just to save for more."
Just thought I'd say that if you don't see the point then you are obviously not Chinese!
haha
Posted by Jupiter105 (125 days ago)
Or smell of wet dog
Posted by jon_99 (125 days ago)
Relevant to this discussion thread of how much ppl making as salary (saw reports of ppl earning HK120/ mnth ! wow!), is how much ppl actually spend with that cash. I've heard some reports of wives of bankers spending like HK100K/ mnth themselves on shopping, facials, outings, restos..etc. But not sure.
Me, I am on btw HK30-43K/ month, and my spending is HK15-18K on going out..etc. (ie non essentials like accom, rent, bills). Whats everyone else's experience or stories?
Posted by iwilltry (125 days ago)
We don't obvious have an income of 100K per month, we're just a quarter to that.
However, how does it feel not living in big houses, not affording a car, or not being able to spend thousands on holidays/luxury? Well still, I am happy.
We always wanted to save as much as possible but it seems we're always out of the budget. Our monthly spendings go to about 12-13K a month.
However a good thing was, me and my husband had a separate joint account in which we put our savings when we receive our pay. We both keep couple of thousands for the month and if we use beyond it, we get some out of the joint account but then we sort of try to avoid that. It helps us keep a balance and as well monitor each others expenses.
Posted by Iain1981 (125 days ago)
wow 120K a month and no savings from that!?! i could work for 2 months and take a 10 month vacation... for 1 months rent of 70K(!) i could pay rent for over a year inclusive of all utilities... oh the life of a bankster...
Posted by Dick Hunter (125 days ago)
People who earn a lot tend to spend a lot, often on unnecessary items.
Case in point: you don't need a car -let alone an expensive car- in Hong Kong. And when you don't have a car, you don't need a private parking space either.
You don't need 3 amahs. Your wife does not need facials every week, or colonic irrigation, a private yoga teacher, massage or any other folly that makes her feel that she is not totally wasting her life being idle and bored.
Posted by Dick Hunter (125 days ago)
People who earn a lot tend to spend a lot, often on unnecessary items.
Case in point: you don't need a car -let alone an expensive car- in Hong Kong. And when you don't have a car, you don't need a private parking space either.
You don't need 3 amahs. Your wife does not need facials every week, or colonic irrigation, a private yoga teacher, massage or any other folly that makes her feel that she is not totally wasting her life being idle and bored.
Posted by cd (124 days ago)
Disagree about not needing a car, when you've got kids, plus a wheelchair user, having a car makes HK a lot easier to get around, and go different places. I drive 250 miles a week, imagine that in taxi money. Agree with the rest though...
Most people live to their means, the more they have the more they spend.
Posted by cara (124 days ago)
or when you live miles from anywhere (like we do!) a car is a necessity. but generally though, dick is right, for most people in hk (especially hk island) a car is a definite luxury not a necessity.
Posted by juji (115 days ago)
Its a really crazy subject. The more you earn, the more you spend, the more you spend, the more you want. What a crazy ego driven world we live in. Where instant gratification seems to be the only option. This crisis will certainly shake some trees. It has certainly rocked mine. From 150K to 0 has been quite a hard landing and they only person I have to blame is myself... Were all those impluse purchases and luxurious items worth it? Not from where I am sitting now.
Posted by jon_99 (114 days ago)
Hi Juji,
sorry to hear that. You were earning 150K a month? Can you share w us what industry that was in? Banking? Finance? And you spent it all, didnt save much?
cheers
Posted by fizzfuzz (114 days ago)
By some standards on this thread, I am filthy rich. But by some standards in HK, I am dirt poor. We own our flat in Mid-Levels and I make hundreds of thousand HKD per month. We are driven by a chauffeur and take a least one vacation trip per year to far-away land on business class. We are members to an exclusive social club in HK and school our kids in top international school. I wear Swiss made mechanical watches, each costing an equivalent of a new Japanese car.
However, my wife insists on cooking our own meals. The only time we dine out is during the weekend that averages HKD 400 per meal. We shop in local wet market. Manicure and facial are a luxury attempted once in a blue moon. I still wear an 11-year pair of loafers that has seen numerous re-sole. The clothes on my back averages 5 years or more.
So my point is, money is important, especially in an expensive city like Hong Kong. However, having money does not necessary mean a person has to squander it. The only advise I have to those who are struggling to make it is that, there will always be opportunities to strike it rich. But how one utilizes the riches will determine whether one will continue to be rich.
Posted by juji (114 days ago)
jon_99 I used to be self-employed. I have bought property, have some shares and still have huge amounts of assets in my companies, though no cash flow at the moment. You know, I think this experience, as awful as it is, is the best thing to every happen to me. I agree completely with fizzfuzz above. Its not how much you earn, its allocation.. what you do with it after you earn it.
Posted by fizzfuzz (114 days ago)
juji, if you still carry a few plastic in your wallet, my advise is to limit it down to two credit cards and consolidate your debt. Carry less than HKD 500 with you at all times. Pack your own lunch from the left-overs. Sooner than you think, the economic situation will rebound and you will suddenly find yourself in a cash-flow positive position. Good luck.
Posted by bcc100 (114 days ago)
This is where people have misconceptions. Ultimately, everyone is responsible for this fortune/misfortune. If you've never planned your financials (not by getting a professional to do it for you, but do it yourself), you are in deep trouble. There are three things or steps you can do with your money
1). Save until you reach a reasonable amount which will last you thru rainy days or give you a comfortable retirement (not luxurious, but at least comfortable, or be able to afford your current lifestyle).
2). Spend it on things and ways that makes you happy. (Why make money other wise if you are not gonna spend it?)
3). Invest it to generate returns or losses. Let your money work for you.
I'm still within the first stage of saving up for rainy days and retirement. I live in an ok apartment, and eat out with family once or twice a week. My kids are in international school as well, but I don't over spend money on unnecessary stuff. I can save at least 60% of my monthly salary this way. I have set a clear goal on where my spending habit can start. Which is not too far in the future.
Once I reach that goal, I'll be living the life to my liking. Enjoy luxuries as they come knowing fully well that my back is covered. Whatever is left, I'll use them to play the investment game. Hong Kong is awsome with no captial gain tax, but I won't head into the market without knowing I'm fully covered even if I loss everything in it. in the main time I'll still save a bit here and there to make sure the money I saved doesn't depreciate too much.
One thing to think about how Rich people spend their money is their cost/hr. If I make 1000/Hr (Salary+Bonus/Hrs worked per year), and having a personal assistant that takes care of my mundane daily tasks for 200/hr, its a huge saving (instead of a luxury spending) for me as I don't have to spend 1000/hr on taking care of things by myself. Waxing, manicures, and other luxuries are measured likewise. If a new LV wallet can help (remember personal appearance is very important in Asia) me earn a new client or revenue more than it costs, its not only a enjoyable luxury for me, but also a wise investment, Or if that wallet can save you a bit less depression it might just as well be worth it. Most things have their cost and benefit. You just have to think about it in that sense.
There's no limit to luxury, but if you have saved enough, you can happily enjoy your luxury. If you've never thought about planning your own financials, or at least have a general plan. Think about it now. It really doesn't matter how much you are making at the moment. As long as you are not on governement welfare. You can save some. May not be able to get you to the super rich, but it'll surely help you maintain your life style during the bad times. Once that's enough (make sure you set a goal as what is enough), start to enjoy the rest. Only this will motivate you to earn more, learn more, and get further.
Posted by MayC (114 days ago)
I would consider myself VERY rich if my family's combined income was $100k a month! That would be pure luxury for us!
Even two thirds of that would be VERY nice so that I could do things that I've put on hold for years such as renovating our apartment which is falling apart, put aside money for a second baby, go on a cheap holiday maybe once every two years, put braces in because my teeth are in danger of overcrowding, have cable tv at home... etc etc etc... but I am already doing quite well because I'm not struggling to put food on the table or struggling to pay my bills plus some big items I could purchase through installments :-)
From reading these posts, it is obvious that no matter how much a person earns, it is never enough ;-)
Posted by fizzfuzz (114 days ago)
bcc100, you are absolutely right about "no limit to luxury." However, there is always a limit to one's savings. So consider very carefully when you compare a tangible investment, i.e. that LV wallet, to the intangible benefit, i.e. the personal appearance...
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