if you couldn't have children....

Posted by ayumi (481 days ago)

My question is "If you couldn't have children, how would your life and relationships be affected?"

I met a few men and women who didn't want children, and only years later I found out that they couldn't have them because of male and female infertility problems.

Some of them are still married (not very happily) some got divorced, but the majority have given up on the idea of settling down.

I am interested in the different reactions men and women would have if they were told they couln't procreate.

I can start by saying that if I were infertile I would not get married. I would focus on my career instead. I don't think I would adopt. I would not try IVF because the success rate is still too low to justify the pain, and hormonal havoc.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AngelinaShum (481 days ago)

I think some couples they don't want to have kids in the first few years of relationship, but one side may change his/her mind after several years getting married..."having children" seems a kind of bond to keep a family as a whole to many people; life will be boring if a couple they don't have hobbies to develop and the topics between them will go very limited after years; unless both are having a strong clear mind that "no kid!"

I will consider adopt a kid but it seems impossible here if you are not married, right? So currently, I can only support poor kids financially.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by Mobile.Fidelity (481 days ago)

ayumi, where did you get your info regarding IVF ?

I suggest if you want the best IVF specialist in the world, Professor Pepperell in Melbourne is the leading man to see and hugely successful. He invented the medical procedure and with very high rates of success.

To answer the previous question, if my partner and I, couldnt have children, we would accept that factor and live our lives as dinks ie double income no kids, or adopt, happy either way.

Those who look at life in a positive way always remain happy, regardless of circumstances.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sasquatch (481 days ago)

Wow, I can speak to this topic...

I am adopted and my wife is infertile. First off my thoughts on the adoption thing are soooo 100%
positive. Ive known as long as could speak and aunderstand the concept that I was adopted becasue my parents couldnt have kids. It was always a positive thing, never secrewt and my family is awesome. I love them and my adopted little bro as much as anyone does their bio family. Maybe its even a little more special because my parents sort of saved me from what could have been a lousy life and they wanted me bad enough to go through all kinds of sh*% to get me.

Now with my wife turning out to be infertile and after 5 years of trying IUI's and IVFs etc we are going to adopt, probably from China.

All of a sudden I have this major problem. I told my self my whole life that it didnt bother me to not know anyone who aws related by blood to me because some day Id have my own kids and they would be. Not that I feel my family is less, they are perfect. But I feel oddly genetically isolated from the flow of my genes across time. It sounds hokey but its important to me deep down inside. I feel like a sprang onto the earth from nothing and now I havve found that I will dissapear after I die and leave nothing behind. Its so totally heart breaking for me to face this and my wife knows a little but not anything of the real depths of it or how much I find myself resenting her as the party at fault. The docs told me I have super sperm and great numbers too.

Maybe if we had both female and male factor issues Id feel different.

I am thinking about leaving her. I dont know how I can though she loves me so much it will tear her heart out to even know any of this but Its haunts me.

If it weren't for that one special issue though...

PLEASE consider adoption if you are having any problems concieving. If you do it right and dont ever think its a secret thing it will be the best thing you will ever do in your life. I would so adopt in a heartbeat if it didnt , for me, mean ill never have my own biological child. Id have my own kid and stil adopt and never for a second think different of my two children.

My mother has a poem on her wall with a baby pic of me and my little brother that says..

"Ill never forget, not even for a minute
that you werent born under my heart,
But in it.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by zonked (481 days ago)

It takes hell of a confidence to be so honest about your issue, Sasquatch! But be this honest with your wife too and then maybe she'll understand your concerns.

It is an important issue in a relationship as it has life-long repercussions. And I think one should not drag a relationship if one partner feels empty without a kid. It is not fair to both. So in that sense for you to leave your wife is a fair thought and also you should take the step quick enough to save her from more pain.

I also agree one should not adopt if you're not 100% sure that you'd be able to give your all to the kid.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (481 days ago)

wow Sasquatch, thanks for sharing your very moving and positive story...but hang on a sec!hold your horses! before you leave your wife over her infertility, have you considered a surrogate mother?

i am sorry to sound ignorant, and perhaps you have pursued all avenues and options, but if it's a genetic legacy you're after, could you try surrogacy, without leaving your wife? either your sperm + her egg c/o a surrogate, or your sperm + surrogate's egg c/o the surrogate. there must be a way....

what a lovely poem btw.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by Pumpkin (481 days ago)

You mean childless because you couldn't have them biologically because your body was unable...or childfree not by choice because your partner already has a couple and doesn't want anymore?

Bottom line - You don't have to birth children to be a mother. My partner is adopted and has kids already so if I choose him, I must choose also to be (biologically) childfree.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ayumi (481 days ago)

Very interesting perspective.
I know it's easier to move on and accept life without children for couples who have both male and female factor. If only one partner is infertile, resentment becomes almost inevitable. That's why I said I would not get married, because I know it would negatively affect my marriage.

I really admire those who adopt. I just think that I am not ready for it. Maybe in the future.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ayumi (481 days ago)

Yes, Sasq, you might want to consider egg donor. I don't know what your wife's problem is, but I have a friend who went to a famous clinic in Spain and had a beautiful kid through egg donation. The child is genetically related to her husband and that's enough for them.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (481 days ago)

yes, exactly. Sasquatch, i assume your wife loves you very much and would understand your desire for a genetically-related child - you just haven't given her a chance because you haven't yet confided your deepest feelings to her.

to support your desire for a biological child would allow her to make a gesture of such generosity and compassion, and make her stop feeling so badly about her infertility...believe me, if you resent her this much - enough to consider leaving her - can you imagine how much she must be beating herself up, the guilt and sorrow she must be feeling over her infertility?

please speak with her and truly share your feelings and desires. give your partnership a chance. you are after all about to adopt anyway, right? please don't break up your family before it has begun.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by zonked (481 days ago)

Yep, definitely, if the option of the egg donor exists then it should be a great option for you, Sasquatch. That is if you love your wife deeply. Because it'll be a great sacrifice for her to accept that even though she is infertile. And I think surrogacy would not required in your case, unless she has a problem carrying the foetus too.

The issue does require very honest and open discussion about your feelings and her's and no point hiding them as the it'll effect your lives forever.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part deux) (481 days ago)

I definitely do not wish to breed. I do not have a problem with children per say but really do not see the point of them… I adore life and all the varied experiences it proffers and there is too little time on this earth without devoting 20+ years for what…

I do intend however to marry at some time and that in itself will be life changing. My husband will become my family and I intend to devote all the time and energy into the marriage… to and for him… and of course for us. But I do agree with ayumi that it would be unfair to enter into a relationship with someone who did want (more) children.

Sasquatch: I have noticed on other threads you mention ‘dates’ with women I presume are not your wife… Have you already given up on your marriage because of the fertility obstacles?

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by Sasquatch (481 days ago)

Thats just it. I love her and dont want to hurt her, but I think that Im no longer in love with her.

We discussed surrogacy and doners etc. Not really an option for us financially.

Maybe its everything involved with the fertility, not just the fact that it isnt going to happen now , the hormones and the way she treated me when on the hormones (for 5 years). Shes better now of course. But We did finally get pregnant and then lost it at 8 weeks but didnt find out until 13 weeks so she carried a dead baby for 5 weeks.

My little brother found out they accidentally got pregnant the day before we found out we werent.. again. Then the next cycle we were and told my parents they would be double grandparents only 2 months apart by wrapping a little box for their cChristmas present and saving it for last under the tree then they opened it and taped down inside was a little card that said "we're pregnant!". Then we went home from Xmas vacation and found out it was dead.

We did a couple more cycles with nothing and now we no longer have insurance that pays for it. Its not really an option at 14 grand a shot in the USA. She is not willing to go the foreign doctor route either.

I convinced her I was ok with it and that we will adopt. Like I said I am ok with that just not with never having one of my own. But now I find myself stalling on paperwork for it etc. I know why I do it. She senses Im not ready for some reason and were broke right now LOL. I bought a huge house in Seattle and we are jacked up on plastic from the move and my being out of work for 6 months before the seattle job then her out for 3 after she moved out with me.

I just dont want to be with her anymore. I dont want to kiss her or sleep with her or really spend much time with her. In fact I go home from this 2 week trip tomorrow and I kind of dread it. Id rather just stay here in China. She'll want to give me belated Birthday sex and I dont want that either.

Its bad, getting worse and I should fess up my feelings about it all or go to counciling but I cant bring myself to. I know Im a bad husband and a sh*& head for not communicating on so important an issue but I just can't open up. To her. appparently Im having no problem w that in here. Anonymity is great for that. Until you all start meeting me around China LOL. Then my cover will be blown.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by voiceofreason (481 days ago)

in that case, set your wife free - and the sooner the better. she doesn't deserve your contemptuous treatment one moment longer.

i feel sorry for both of you.

good luck finding the mother of your future children. perhaps this time you will be honest with her from the start about your deepest desires, so she can make an informed decision and a sturdy plan-B in case she is unable to help you attain your dream.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by voiceofreason (481 days ago)

look i'm sorry to sound harsh, and i am truly sorry about the failed pregnancies - i can only imagine the disappointment and sadness you both went through.

but you sound so far gone emotionally, and your wife deserves to start afresh with someone who loves her as she is, for better or worse.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (481 days ago)

I agree with VoR. Your wife probably deserves someone who can love her for who she is and what she means to them. Hormone therapy can really screw women up, or so I heard...I know someone who went on it and did get pergnant, but she was saying if she had to do it again, she'd give it a miss.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (481 days ago)

Sasquatch: Like you, I am adopted and have known since birth. It's a great thing. Adoption is a wonderful thing for many people. Unlike you, I do not feel the need to pass on my genetic line and my husband and I are decidedly childfree. If one of us changes our minds, we have a "Get out of marriage" free card. (No, I am not joking.)

Kids, or no kids, is a HUGE thing in relationships. If you are not on the same page as your wife, then you are better off to cut her and yourself loose. You can find someone with whom you can have bio-kids, as it is so important to you.

Ayumi: Despite not wanting to ever have kids, even if I can have them, I did not pass on the marriage option and I do not regret it. My family is my husband and myself as well as his mum/sis/nephew and my family. Family is what you make it and that does not have to include children.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Evabeva (481 days ago)

Sasquatch, it's great you could lighten yourself here and express your feelings. I'd like you to read this story
http://www.theage.com.au/news/tv--radio/mothers-and-babies-separated-at-birth/2006/10/31/1162278147632.html

Actualy, the woman who is the focus of this story was forced to give up her illegitimate baby and then found out years later her new husband was impotent. He had known he was impotent, but lied about it when they married. It destroyed her life. She left him, and really looked for anyone who would give her a baby. The situation was just terrible, but nothing would make her happy until she had her own baby and her first baby in her arms again....

Sasquash, I really recommend that you split with your wife now. You know deep down how you feel about this issue. It is a core issue for you. You need to be honest about it, and do what you need to do. It may seem selfish to your wife, but ultimately, it isn't, it is real honesty.

I understand that a person in your situation would want someone who was connected to him in this way. You deserve the chance to have this. Your wife also deserves the truth, and a chance for someone who will love her and meet her exact needs.

What drives people is different to each. Having a biological child is a big factor in your identity and life, and not a need that can be met through adoption.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sasquatch (481 days ago)

Yeah, I know you are all right about that. I should set her free. This is a hard situation though and it took 5+ yrs, (10 together so far, 7 married) to find out we were not going to have kids. But its only been less than 6 months since we came to the conclusion. Also we moved to Seattle for my work in that time.

I guess Im just trying to wait a little to see if I can get over this before I do something so hurtful to her and permanant to our relationship.

We are all the way across the country from her family now too and they were all up in our business and gave her anxiety attacks - which she took out on me of course and Im just still trying to deal and get over it.

You know I have good days and bad days about it all. I cant jump into this decision too quickly. I feel I need to try and let a little time heal me first. My parents are still married after 40 some years my grandparents like 68 anniversaries before they died within months of each other. I dont come from a "divorce is ok" family and Im really having a hard time coming to terms with how I feel.

If I come to a full realization that Im done with her I WILL tell her instead of letting it all drag out. But seriously everyone its too fast for me right now. Shes only lived in Seattle with me since November and I was there since Sept. 1st without her. Time. Please cut me a little slack before you make me feel worse about it.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by tia (481 days ago)

Does she know how you feel about bio-kids? Have you talked to her about the other problems in your marriage?

IF you are sure that the marriage is over, then you should leave. Don't leave before you are 100% sure. It's always easy for people on the outside to say "LEAVE" but it's never that simple.

I wish you luck.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sasquatch (481 days ago)

Thnx Tia. She knows but she thinks Im ok with dealing with it I lied right off the bat to try and make her feel better because she was SO CRUSHED emotionally by it. She feels terrible about denying me that and we have cried and talked it over. When she first found out five years ago that she didnt ovulate she tried to make me leave her. It was heartbreaking to go through. I thought it would be ok to use fertility trtmnts or adopt. I didnt know then what I would feel now.

I still dont know what I feel now. Thats my problem. I probably need a solo counsiler. I am not ready to talk to her about it. If I do we are prolly done before I even know if we're done. If you know what I mean. She'll move right back to Florida to go cry on her friends shoulders because we dont have many friends in Washington yet and that will be it. Plus her family is a divorce factory and once she gets back to them they will further reinforce that.

All right Im off to go pack. Flying home at o'dark thirty in the morning. I get to come back in 3 weeks or so though. I always miss China.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (481 days ago)

Time sounds like just what the doc ordered :o)

Hey, you have a good point there...pointing out the "ok, no more hormone therapy" acceptance...the "do we adopt or not" quandry and your own realization that you want a genetic link to yourself ...and the added guilt you feel for wanting this because of how this excludes your wife.

You guys just moved...on the psychological scale of stress...thats pretty high. So yeah, see how that goes...a lot of the negative emotions you are feeling may have to do with your guilt about feeling what isnt your fault for feeling...but also probably a feeling like "Hell, I'm adopted and I was a happy kid but I still want my own..or the option of my own...and then I wouldnt mind adopting after to add to the brood".

I dunno, man, methinks it could do you some good to go see a headshrinker about this...to deal with your motives for wanting out...coz maybe its not just the baby thing. Maybe there are deeper issues than the genetic link. Maybe you dont love her or her hormonal fits tipped you over the edge. If she's not on the hormones again, maybe you can get back a glimpse of the woman you promised to love in good times and bad, sickness and healthy...blah blah blah...all that other stuff your grandparents and your parents know all about. Your folks stuck it through...and there's nothing wrong with you wanting your own kidlet, your own flesh and blood...but what you say is right, take time to think about it all.

Hey, its your life...and have all the slack you need...coz none of us have to live your life for you. I met this wonderful adoptee while I was on a diving trip, she's of Korean origin and her folks are caucasian American...and I think she had other siblings from all over the place...she's a proud mother of 2 kids, neither of which she planned, I guess her hubby was just super fertile...but she was telling me it was a very special thing for her giving birth to her own child, knowing that her own parents had been shot and killed and her adoptive parents rescued her from a state orphanage when she was 4.

But that said, she has huge plans to adopt more kids...from a country she feels where kids would really need her help, Indonesia. She is also starting an adoption agency to provide better care for expectant mothers of unwanted pregnancies to make the transition as smooth as possible...also the most difficult thing in 3rd world countries is adequate prenatal nutrition...but I am getting carried away...yeah, take time to think about it, for sure...coz you already know about being an adoptee, but maybe you can talk to your folks about it more, about their experiences and what helped them to stick it through.

Cant hurt to learn from the past a little. If you still feel you wouldnt be happy without a genuine article "seed of your loins" then yeah, totally...leave your wife and be totally honest with her about why. Communication may be something you guys could do more about and even if it came to a fork in the road, if you have been honest with her, you may even move on with her blessing and no regret.

Coz, well, lets just say it were sods law...how can you guarantee that the next person you end up with is 100% fertile and capable of being "with child" on the pronto? Y'know? Which is why I am asking...if its about the kid thing, or the "I dont love my wife anymore" or "I was having fun without her there and kinda got used to that" or "Maybe see how she is when she isnt up to her eyeballs in hormones!"...Either way, I know its not easy for you...but its doubly hard for her...she's the one who has carried a dead baby, she's a woman who's ovaries are useless...and yes, she's kinda depended on you to be there for her and to be honest with her...so either stick it through, or at least have the balls to be honest to the woman you promised to love forever.

Good Luck.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by dontknowwhattodo (481 days ago)

This is a bloody depressing thread. A lot in it which brings back my sorrow, esp., the mention of that story...

I'd expect someone to get this removed from the forum as it brings back a lot of bad memories and unfulfilled dreams....

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (481 days ago)

I had sensed it a few hours backs that Sasq.. is really not into his wife for him to post out details with this honesty and that is why my first advise to him was to leave his wife at the earliest to save her from a lot more pain which is inevitable as the months/years pass by.

His subsequent posts make it very clear that nothing really can be done to salvage his marriage... he has to let his wife know the truth and then ask for a divorce!

Sounds harsh but that is fair to everyone involved. And will save a lot of people from destroying their lives in the process.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (481 days ago)

Agree with you zonked...but it sounds like he still needs to grow hair on his cajones before he makes a permanent decision on how the future will rock out.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (481 days ago)

weird... he says he doesn't want to hurt his wife.... that is what he is exactly doing!

God, if you've thought so much through and made up your mind to have your own baby, why the hell are you keeping the poor woman in dark, Sasq...??

Believe me, if you ask her for a divorce, based on what you want in life instead of her, it won't break her down or destroy her... It'll only make her stronger to live her life anew and boldly and with someone who will want her.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by annebin (480 days ago)

My husband and I cannot have kids after cervical cancer prompted an immediate radical hysterectomy in 2003. We've been married only for less than 2 years at that time and looking back, hmmm, the whole experience cemented our relationship.

We're just fortunate that we both believe that having biological children is not a couple's only source of happiness. We have accepted and embraced our child-free state (even from the beginning) and we continue to make the most of what we have. And don't have.

We both do not wish to adopt at this point--don't know if in the far future we will change our minds though. During moments when we want the company of kids, we borrow our nephews and nieces and spoil them, and it's a role we truly enjoy.
That's enough for us.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (480 days ago)

that's lovely, annebin - you sound like my sister and her husband, although they are childless by choice. the direct beneficiary of all that love is my lucky son, who is extremely close to them as a result.

to answer ayumi's original question: if i couldn't have children, i would probably never have gotten married. even though i have long been divorced, and enjoy an amicable and constructive relationship with my ex-husband, i still believe that children - whether biological or adopted - do best starting off in life with two parents present. as an adult, i feel we owe it to them.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by tia (480 days ago)

2 parents would be ideal, but sometimes single happy parents are better than coupled up miserable ones.

Annebin: It sounds like your life is working out well for you and your husband. I am in the same boat. My husband hates kids. I quite enjoy them, in small doses. I have great friends with even greater kids and I get to borrow them every so often. My sister is going to have one soon, as is my best mate. I'll get enough from that.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (480 days ago)

tia, that's very true - i believe my ex and i have been much better as cooperative single parents, than had we stayed together and miserable.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by zonked (480 days ago)

VOR, can't understand why people would choose to be childless if they actually love kids as you wrote about your sister.

tia -- your husband hates kids and you like them and you actually fulfil that side of you by borrowing other's kids... don't you think some where down the line you'll miss having your own esp since you like kids?? What will you do then?

Not being able to have one is hugely different from not wanting one, i.e. when one wants and the other doesn't.

I think it is something that can cause a lot of turmoil in a relationship. I know it would for me.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by annebin (480 days ago)

Yeah, life has been pretty good. It takes effort though, but what I feel to be very important is making the most of what is right here, right now.

We both love kids, and like you Tia, only in small doses.

I asked my husband one time if, when we were still dating and we found out that I couldn't bear him children, he said he would still have married me anyway.

To answer the OP's question, yes I would still have gotten married. IMHO, motherhood/parenthood is not the only fulfilling role one plays in life.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (480 days ago)

zonked, i didn't say my sister and her husband loved all kids - for better or worse, they love only my kid. in fact it's very odd, because children love my sister - i think it's because she is petite and doll-like...but the feeling simply isn't mutual. my parents and i have long stopped hoping for them to give my son a cousin or three.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by voiceofreason (480 days ago)

p.s. just for the record, and to further answer ayumi's question: if i had stayed HAPPILY married to my ex, i would have liked to have had around four children. but i wasn't going to have more children to "save" the marriage.

i am definitely jealous of my girl friends who have more than one child, and i am absolutely green with envy over those with daughters! :-)

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by zonked (480 days ago)

Wow, I share the feelings with you, VOR! I always wanted to have a daughter but have a son! I even got pregnant again but chose not to have her/him as I wasn't totally happy with the way our marriage was going. Yes, I do not believe a kid can save the marriage. Quite the contrary! (And I've actually read a statistics on that.)

Actually my marriage ended after a year or so and I thank MYSELF for taking that right decision at the time! Single parent to one kid is quite a handful, if I had two I would've gone nuts.... and had no life!

But, also yes, if I had remained happily married, I would definitely have tried hard to have a daughter...

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (480 days ago)

I do not like ALL kids. I am very selective about the kids I like. I can tolerate kids in small doses better than my husband can. He has a nephew who I really like. When I mention to hubby how interesting his nephew is, he just shrugs. Not a kid person. And, like VOR's sister, kids seem to flock to me. Little buggers! ;) (j/k) It's like cats...they go to the person who seems to be the least interested in them. :)

I like kids. I teach. I better like them a little. I see 1000+ kids EVERY DAY. I do not want to go home to more. I will never regret NOT having kids of my own. There are many kids out there who need someone to care for them, foster and nurture them and if I feel the need, I'll do that. Having one full time? Not for me, thanks. I know that much about myself.

Honestly, in my entire life, I have never felt the tick ticking of a bio-clock as many people claim to have felt. Even when I was younger, the idea of kids was "if it happens, it happens" but it was never in the major plan.

Kids, as we have seen, can be a BIG deal breaker. Hubby and I talked about this at length before we got married. When I say that if one of us becomes clucky, the other gets a free pass out of the marriage, I am not joking. We know that it is a BIG deal for some. For us, the choice to not have them is the big deal and a change in that would definitely change our relationship.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by lambada (480 days ago)

Hey Sasquatch. Go easy on yourself. There are always people on here ready to cast stones. Should be "voice of unreason" (LOL) I think your pretty brave writing your thoughts down and posting. I reckon you both just need a bit of time to get over some of the pressures you've been through. Remember ultimately your thoughts control your emotions so a bit of positive thinking about your missus might actually change the emotions in a more positive direction. Worth a shot. I wouldn't say a thing for a while though she probably senses things aren't right. Just try to spend some quality time together and relax. Forget adoption for a few years when your finances are in better shape. If you really think it's over then extract yourself gracefully but you may find you have lost far more than you realise.

As for kids, fortunately many people who don't have kids don't fully appreciate what it feels like to have kids as they haven't had them, so they don't miss them as much as people who have kids would think they would miss them. There are exceptions, of course. I was a solo parent for 12 + years and loved it. Totally ambivalent about having more kids as long as I can be a traditional dad not both dad and mum! I have adopted 3 kids unofficially and support a gaggle of others piecemeal.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (480 days ago)

Kids rock! Lol.

If there is anything I did right with my life, I would say my kidlet is it. He's the greatest and I never wanted a little girl, I got exactly what I wanted, a little boy. Boys are really hard to manage when kids but as adults can do as they please...and girls are easy as kids but a right bloody nightmare as teens! I guess I was hoping for the easy option and I got it.

I was dating someone who, like me with my one, already had kids and initially we both figured maybe we'd have more one day...then at some point it was only me that was open to that option. So I guess at some point it became obvious that that would end up being an issue in the future. I guess its good to know you have to option to adopt or to procreate if you want, when someone has a definate no on both, its not going to work out.

My fiance, early doors told me about possibly not being able to have kids coz of complications in the past...it never bothered me as we both were cool with the idea of adoption or artificial insemination if we chose to go that route.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tinkering (480 days ago)

I really don't see the big issue here. It's finding a life partner that's the big challenge. If you want children running around and a big family and so on, adoption surely would do the trick.

The ability to have children or not really is a minor issue if you have somone you love and trust. If you have somone you can talk to who is honest and open to you in all respects, why do you need children from your own gene pool. There are too many people in this world already and it's not like the human race is going to go extinct any time soon.

As far as this goes, I must say that you really amaze me Sasquatch. here I read one post about looking for western women in HK where you enter a long segment about how you can date, not western, but local women in calf high boots. you go on displaying great ignorance for chinese language and culture and joy over how you really don't need to know any of these things because local women love your blond hair, blue eyes and hairy arms.

Now I learn that you have been married for 7 years and in the same relationship for 10. Does your wife know about all these "slender" local girls you are dating? And you are thinking about leaving your wife because she can not have children. You are pathetic and for her sake I really hope you leave her while she still is young enough to find a real man.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (480 days ago)

Yep, I second you tinkering!!

He should definitely leave his wife for her sake not his!!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (480 days ago)

Tinkering, I could not agree with you more about finding a partner and the rest will work itself out. Well put!

If you are going to have kids, be sure that you really want them. Ambivalence in this area is not good. My husband's sister has one boy and while she quite likes him and all, if she had the chance to do it over again, she said she would not have had him.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (480 days ago)

And that's all the more important if you go in for adoption!!

Whatever said and done, an adopted child needs to feel more accepted and loved by both the parents.
You can neglect your bio child for once, or slap him, but if you do that to an adopted one and realise after a while that you might as well have done without him, it is DISASTER. So, it is a bigger responsibility to adopt than to produce a child.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (480 days ago)

Lord *scratchin head* I obviously dont read enough threads, I didnt know sasquatch was dating other women all over the place...*SMH*

Aiyah...

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (480 days ago)

If you raise your adopted child in a loving, caring environment and you need to discipline him/her, it won't be a disaster. My parents disciplined me often as a kid and I don't think it was a disaster. It's a big responsibility to have kids, adopted or not. My parents did not feel more responsibility to myself and my brother than my sister who is their bio kid. We are their children, in their hearts and in their minds and we were all treated equally. All children need to feel loved and accepted.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tinkering (480 days ago)

I think we are getting somewhere here. Ayumi seems to wonder if she should give up the idea of getting married or aiming for a life long commitment if she can't have children.

I think this attitude approaches the issue of children and relationship from the opposite angle. If you find a good partner and there is love and respect in the relationship, where the children came from is a non issue.

There are all sorts of combinations here. I have friends who are solid couples who have been together for decades with children from all sorts of combination of backgrounds. Some are adopted, some are from unfortunate circumstances before the couple met and so on.

What really matters, and whatI think somone like Ayumi should focus on, is to find a good partner.

Ideally one finds a partner for life if one wants to have children and in that case, it better be someone who respects you for who you are. If you have a partner who has problems with your inability to have children, I think you can safely assume you are not with the right guy and you should find someone else to honor with your love.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by balzac (480 days ago)

I feel for Sasquatch.I've thought about this issue many times, as I have endometriosis, but have not yet tried to conceive. This question-Can I get pregnant" Has always been in my thoughts since my early twenties.

If I could not have kids (after multiple attempts), I would adopt, definitely, but only if my husband genuinely agrees. Otherwise, I would leave the marriage for his sake. Of course, all this is theoretical.

My uncle and his wife could not have kids for many years and they finally adopted a baby girl, about 7-8 years ago. It is very obvious to anyone watching, that it was the best decision the'd ever made in their lives. The wonderful lil girl is my fav cousin of all.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Sasquatch (479 days ago)

Hey I never said I was sleeping with those women. I just offered up how to meet them, and avised who not to take along with you.

But.. I do enjoy going out with them and they help a great deal with my Mandarin because the kind of conversations a man has with a woman are very different from those I have with my guy friends, who all speak too much english anyway. They are more happy to teach me about Chinese culture, convince me to eat funky foods etc. It also helps me to kind of sort out if I do want to be w someone else or not. If I found someone that actually made me feel like I was going to "go there" Id have made up my mind. Maybe Im trying to tempt myself. Maybe I already know that and just havent admitted it. Its hard to really understand anothers experiences or fellings if you arent in their place.

I do have a lot of fun out playing that bluffing dice game, no idea what you call it, at the bars I go to with my coworkers after hours. And yes I prefer to go up to and meet attractive girls to play it with, yes they sometimes go out to dinner with us on subsequent nights and yes Ive gone kayaking with one at a lake and played badminton in the park with another. No my wife doesn't know about it and I dont feel any guilt over that.

If you think that makes me a bad guy then so be it. Every forum needs its villains I guess.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (479 days ago)

Not a bad guy, just a guy who's doing one step up from window shopping...that has more to do with being a dishonest guy that being a villan, knowaddimsayin? :o)

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by watsuki (479 days ago)

Justin Credible (Part Deux), what is *SMH*??

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Aijin (part deux) (479 days ago)

Yeah JC but at least he is trying to be honest with himself and figure out his motives for his feelings and actions...

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by moominvalley (479 days ago)

i do think that you are bad and selfish. did you tell those girls that you are married? or you pretended to be single? you are not leaving your wife because you want to hold her as a back-up? she is the one who suffers too and who carried the dead baby and she really needs your support but you are just fooling around in China...a place where you feel more superior as a white guy?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by voiceofreason (479 days ago)

Sasquatch, on the one hand your honesty over your dilemma of wanting biological children is really moving, and inspires deep thought and sympathy.

on the other hand...i find your treatment of your wife despicable, and what you are going through does not excuse it.

from what you have posted, you are punishing her for things beyond her control - her infertility, how she treated you whilst on fertility meds. you are not communicating openly with her and thus are not giving her a chance to take action. finally, plain and simple, you ARE cheating on her, at least emotionally, with other women.

you are giving to others the friendship, presence, and interest you should be giving your wife at this time...especially when as you say you are contemplating leaving her.

you say you love your wife - yes, yes, we get it, you're just not IN love with her - so act like it. go home, tidy up your affairs, be courageous and set her free, instead of taking the coward's way out, which is - as you describe - waiting for someone tempting enough to make the decision for you.

(I am based in Manila)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (479 days ago)

>watsuki - *SMH* (and now everyone's gonna be sayin it, lol) Shaking My Head

>Aijin - That is true, duckie...Its important in life to be honest, especially to oneself (yes, one must...what-what!) Sure, talking about honesty and being honest with the self...good stuff. Doing dishonest things and being dishonest with others and then being honest with yourself and total strangers about your dishonesty, I guess somewhere in there will be a step in the right direction.

I dont care either way, Sasquatch, coz you're not my spouse. So no beef here. :o)

I just reckon if my spouse went to dinner with single people, that wouldnt bother me...even not being told about it, not a problem...but if my spouse was going out to dinner with singles in the hope for actually trading in! Now thats not cool with me, in the least.

I always say, "empathy and honesty...and communication". If you arent doing all of that already, its not going to take a rocket scientist to calculate the plunging popularity figures for any relationship.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sasquatch (479 days ago)

The girls know Im married and know I dont know where its going, so Im not promising anything and they make their own decisions.

As to feeling superior for being a white guy? You obviously dont know me even though youre reading the inner workings of a lot of my recent thought processes. I am learning Mandarin, trying to experience all of the cultural richness of China that I can, have very good Chinese friends who I aways treat with the respect I give to any of my peers and I treat the afore mentioned girls extremly well and thats why they choose to continue hanging out even when they dont have a reson to think it will necesarily go anywhere.

Im a dual anthropology and industrial design major and plan on going to grad school for cultural or bio anthro eventually and I am very much aware of the fact that humans are humans and none are superior to others except by accidents of birth and environment. So dont try to pin ethnocentricism or racism on me.

As I said about "setting my wife free" Its a big life altering decision and I am not rushing it. Some days we have good days and I feel like we can get past it. Then we have really bad days and I just want out. The scale is still moving. When it settles one way or the other and strikes a balance I will figure this out.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by Aijin (part deux) (479 days ago)

Well he's heading back Stateside so hopefully this trip/experience and the fact he tried to communicate here may help him understand what he wants to do back home... as long as he does decide either way and stops tiptoeing the fence...

Asia is great for blurring perspectives though...

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by Sasquatch (479 days ago)

Yeah, Im home now. Just gonna be up all night w jetlag.

Go back again in 4 weeks.

Today was one of those good days though.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by Aijin (part deux) (479 days ago)

Well anything good is a step in the right direction...

Best of luck with the rest... and do try stay positive...

Life is good and dreams are obtainable... and tis nice to dream the meantime...

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by p-diana (479 days ago)

Well,you seems to know what you are doing,trying to be frank with it and eventually enjoying it ....But your poor wife have to live day by day depending on only on your 'good days and bad days'...........

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by balzac (479 days ago)

While it's nice to sit on a lofty pedestal and judge Sasquatch, do consider:-

We dont know his full background, the basis of his convictions, core values, his personality, his insecurities, neuroses, his weaknesses etc-all this add play a part when people take actions, make choices in their lives, or do wrong things.

Secondly, we are not the one suffering here and experiencing guilt and conflicting emotions. Sure you can cite examples of people who went though similar situations and took the 'higher ground'. But no 2 persons are the same, and in this case, every couple have their own unique history.

In short- give this guy a break.You can advise him on what you'd do but don't take it too personally.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by tinkering (479 days ago)

yes, poor Sasquatch. He even has to endure several weeks with his wife far away from the girls of south china and his role as the exotic blond of their dreams, hehe

Anyway, what happend to the topic of this thread though? We have made this into a discussion of Sasquatch moral standards (or lack of such) rather than advise to Ayumi about the issues of being unable to bear children.

As much as Sasquatch wife also lack the ability to bear children, I dare suggest that this in reality has little to do with the decline of their marriage.

Returing to this question, I personally think that if the question of fertility is made an odstacle to a lifelong relationship, this only reflects deeper rooted issues in the relationship. I don't see why this should in any way lead to resentment from the other party. Moreover, in a case where this lack of fertility is already know, communication this early in the realtionship should open the way for discussing whatever alternatives may be available in the future.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by p-diana (479 days ago)

Well,nobody is getting too personal.I guess you are too Sensitive.........
Sasquatch,hope you could stay on good days and last on....while deciding on the future.....

Best of luck!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by annieh (479 days ago)

Before we married, my husband & I had agreed that we both wanted kids and asap. After 2 & 1/2 years of marriage, I found out that I have PCOS.....

Its really hard and sometimes I feel that if I had known, I wouldn't have gone into the marriage...especially when I see and hear my husband so obviously sad that we cant'....

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zelda (478 days ago)

Interesting thread.

To answer Ayumi's question, I would not get married before conceiving. Marriage is not high on my list, and would accept to be dragged down the aisle only if my partner and i were expecting a baby.

As to Sasquatch's predicament, i have the impression his marriage is over, and his wife's trouble in conceiving is a pretty marginal issue.
If he really wanted a biological child with his wife, they could look for an egg donor. She wouldn't have to take hormones to carry the embryo and from what i heard this is a much less invasive procedure than IVF with her own eggs, as she wouldn't need ovarian stimulation.
And even if he is desperate for a biological child, i don't understand his resistance to the idea of adopting a child. He himself was adopted and his parents gave him love, and support, why can't he imagine himself doing the same thing? They could adopt first, enjoy the experience of raising a child, and his wife might even overcome her fertility problems...so many women conceive naturally after opening their hearts to a child. And as i said, using donor's eggs is always an option later, as there is no biological clock pressure. Even post-menopausal women can carry a pregnancy to term.

Sasquatch wants a child, but I suspect that he doesn't want it with his current wife.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (478 days ago)

Don't want to contribute much to this thread any more as in some ways it is personally disturbing for me to read a few responses... But Zelda -- Wow woman, I love your attitude and confidence and in some ways echoes with mine!

A baby together is the ultimate way one can show one's love to the partner and a reason to go in for a commitment with him/her!

Sasquatch is just living a derailed life and I think no point commenting further on it.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by chavivatt (474 days ago)

Sasquatch, I really pity on you that you dont love your wife coz the reason of bio-child and I doubt that you know what is ture love. do you remember the vow that you made to god in your wedding?!!
if you are the one got serious problem today, do you want your wife just walk away?

I can feel that she loves you a lot because she willing to suffer by IVF so many times. she made me why everyone claim hard to find ture love now!

I am very lucky with my husband even I have a problem of having baby. We both love kids a lot. He told me that our love is not started for "BREED".

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sasquatch (474 days ago)

Serioulsy, I was just trying to answer Ayumi as honestly I as I could regarding my own experiences and feelings related to the issue she posted on.

I wasnt looking for advise or so many comments on my life.

I am quite capable of figuring out what Im going to do or how I should feel about it on my own.

Guess I learned my lesson about just private replying in the future instead of really sharing w the community here.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (474 days ago)

Dont take it personally dude...all newbies learn, there are a lot of folks who take stuff on and it keeps them awake at night, so yeah, better not to be too personal unless you are willing to let people put salt in open wounds :o)

Good luck

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ??? (474 days ago)

Hi Sasquatch, I read your posts about living apart, your wives' hormone supplements,losing a job, having your child die and I couldn't help but think that those things are enough to put anyone into a horrible depression. That's too much sadness for a lifetime. I've read that people who have a child with Down's Syndrome or some other serious problem generally divorce from the stress. No wonder you and your wife are experiencing troubles. YOu have been through so so much and on top of it, I'm guessing you are feeling guilty for wanting a child of your own when you were adopted. Go easy on yourself. Take your time as you've said you will do. i think it's normal to want a child of your own. adoption is great if you can't have a child of your own or if you have your own child/children already. Most of us want to have children of our own. Don't feel guilty or if you do, try to forgive yourself for it. Some people find out they're sterile and feel useless. I think you and your wife have been through things which would make you both uptight, sad, angry and it would be very hard to feel gentle and happy all the time. YOu've invested a lot in your wife. I think it'd be normal to blame her and be upset, but also remember she's not responsible.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by cd (473 days ago)

To ???
Also a lot of people with seriously disabled kids stay together, it can actually make you closer as a family.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by annebin (473 days ago)

There will always be challenges that a couple will go through at some point, and they come in various forms--infidelity, health problems, disabled children, bankruptcy, depression..The list is endless.

Some relationships survive the ordeal while some are not so fortunate. It can either bring you closer or tear you apart.

(I am based in Hong Kong)