Posted by
Phase II
11 yrs ago
A few days ago, I found a tiny ziplock containing white powder in my fiance's pocket. I confronted him about it and he said it is cocaine. He said he uses it a couple times a week to stay awake as he works really long hours. He said it's no big deal, he's not addicted and will stop when his work is less demanding.
I have been caught completely off guard. We have been together more than two years and just got engaged. I never even suspected he might be using drugs - I've never used them myself and I'm not familiar with the culture.
I don't want to be with someone who uses drugs. My impression, whether true or not, is that drug users lie and cheat, can never be trusted and will never quit. I have thought of giving him an ultimatum - either quit or we're done, but it occurred to me that even if he promises to quit, I won't believe him. I've completely lost trust and respect.
It would seem then that I should end the relationship, which would be a shame as we've been very happy together.
Any advice? Is it possible for people to just use cocaine for a period and stop? I have no idea if this is realistic at all. Also, how much does it cost in Hong Kong? He has been borrowing a bit of cash lately and I just got thinking that maybe it has been for the drugs.
Please help.
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I think all of your fears for the recent past and the future are likely to be true...coke is expensive full stop...long hours in HK is the norm, work pressures unlikely to abate unless a change of job...if he's medicating with coke to help him to stay with work pressures or perhaps peer pressures and you only just found out now, for me thats not something you build together on. good luck.
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it IS possible to use coke and not get addicted, but if he already now says that he uses it to stay awak "several times a week", that's a really bad sign. a healthy use - oxymoron alarm - would be doing it twice a year for fun, not several times a week for work
frankly i would ditch him. he doesnt sound like a stable character
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take this as a warning..............consider yourself lucky that you found out about it now and not after you've tied the knot
best to end it maturely, move on, and reassess the situation after a few years to see if he's sorted out his issues or not
remember, there's an old english idom that says "don't put all your eggs in one bastard"..........or something like that anyway :)
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
A few times a week is fine. Probably more serious might be caffiene, which some people take not just a few times a week, but multiple times daily.
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Sorry to Hear,
But It's not new to town
http://www.danwei.org/crime/coked_up_bankers_of_hong_kong.php
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Hi Phase II, Yes it is possible to stop but very difficult. I was in a position similar to you finance 2 years ago when I started doing it just a few times a week and slowly but surely it became something that I was doing regularly. It takes determination, support and willingness to stop. If he doesn't want to stop then he WONT. The cost varies in HK depending who you get it off. Its between $700-$1200 depending on who you know..Hope this is helpful. PM me if you need any help...
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94 RS
11 yrs ago
Remmy, you are an idiot if you honestly believe using cocaine a few times a week is fine. The simple fact is the bloke is snorting some concoction he has bought off the street, manufactured by unknown individuals and cut with unknown products, which has then been trafficked for about HK$1K a hit by a very loose acquaintance at best, twice a week or so he says. What part of this picture do you not find dangerous. There is also the other little issue about what happens when he is caught in possession by five-0, something neither the courts or employers treat lightly.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
RS, I've discussed this issue before in other threads.
Use of cocaine, and other stimulants such as those contained in tea, softdrinks, energy drinks, coffee etc are generaly fine to use occasionally, if done in moderation. Problems arise if people are undisciplined and/or uneducated as to heavy and/or habitual usage. We have a much much larger number of caffiene addicts in HK then we do cocaine.
You are right thought cocaine in HK is likely to have other substances added to it. This of course, is an effect of making the drug illegal. The cure to that is of course to legalize it. (And that would of course also bring down the price, which it seems is one of the concerns of the OP). Similarly, that would also remove the concern of the "five-o}, to use your words. The OP should understand, its not her fiancee who is at fault here, rather its the legal system (which I think in time will change - you can see this happening in Europe, the UK, and even in the USA, which in the past has had a highly hypocrytical approach to this issue).
The OP is a biggott in assuming "drug uses lie and cheat". The fact is that almost all people alive use some kind of drug from time to time to alter moods, creat pleasure etc (and indeed ALL people, from the time they are born, selfgenerate chemical substances akin to drugs).
The question "is it possible to use and stop", is really an idiot question which shows the extreme biggotry and/or misunderstanding of the OP? Its possible to use (and then stop) any willfull behaviour. Its simply that some people are greedy/stupid and or lack discipline and/or education. This is why you get fat people and people who become "addicted" to certain substances.
As for the "ziplock bag" this is likely a sensible way to store the drug, as it will stop it from becoming moist. So not sure what the relevance or concern is of the OP with that specific method of storage.
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Cocaine has very similar effects to caffeine albeit at a much higher level. In the early stages cocaine is generally psycological rather than cocaine itself being chemically addictive in it's own right.
To the OP, just keep in mind that when confronted whether he tried to lie to get out of it or if he readily told you the truth. Has he actually lied or otherwise done anything to make you mistrust him?
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that's why it's called drug! at first it's to have fun, to try etc... and still in control of the drug but very soon, the habit kicks in and you can't control and the drug will control you. it's already hard to kick out the habit with cigarettes, imagine what it would be for cocaine!
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I think it's also important to consider the facts and understand what the drug will/will not do, what are the side-effects etc... don't just use a blanket "drugs are bad m'kay..."
A lot of similar things were said about marijuana not so long ago, look at it now...
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Phase II, go with your gut.
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Let's suppose the finace is not an out of control addict today. 2 questions -
(1) do you really want to marry someone who needs drugs to get thru their day ?
(2) have you considered the consequences if he is arrested, and sent to prison for 12 months (a typical sentence in HK) ... loss of income, loss of visa (expat), loss of job, and might not find another in a hurry, etc.
I would consider yourself lucky that you found out now.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Well, in my case, my usage/addiction started slowly around 15 years ago. I would say the vasy majority of professional people in my industry were using, most quite openly (although many probably denying that they had addictions). I got to the point where I would start from the time I got to work, again indulging after lunch, etc - many colleagues where doing the same. And an extremely profitable venture for the sellers.
It got to the point where one day I felt a sharp pain in my chest area, and from then on I decided to take control of my habit. I took a break for an entire week, and I am now down just to one coffee a day...
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phase II, i would run away! you haven't even started with this guy, not married, no children, no family, just acquaintance. at least start with something perfect, because once you marry and have children, it won't be perfect any longer so don't start with someone who already shows some imperfection.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
What a stupid statement rititt. First of all, no-one is "perfect" and if you think that you can find someone "perfect" you will never get married.
But secondly, you are really a biggot if you believe that a person who likes to use drugs is in someway "imperfect". The reality is that every single human being enjoys the ability to alter their moods, just like every human is inherently racist. If anything, the "imperfection" here, is the biasses that some people like you carry, against people who like to use chemical substances to alter their moods. And by the way, even foods are chemical substances which alter moods. Not tell me you would not like to eat a treat once in a while which might not be good for you but you enjoy it, or that you might like to do a an activity that carries some risk because of the pleasure you get from it (eg surfing, swimming in ocean, hiking, etc) or that you might occasionally enjoy a puff on a joint, or a glass off wine to relax in the evening, or a nice coffee in the morning to perk you up. You sound like a biggotted hypocrite to me...
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A major issue with illegal drugs, even though they may be less harmful than a lot of legal drugs (e.g. cigarettes), is you can get into serious legal trouble. esspecially in HK which has a puritanical view of drugs. Taking drugs might not ruin your life, but getting caught surely will !
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I would have to agree with CaptDave.
Aside from the potentially devastating effects of cocaine addiction and neurological changes/damage that have been scientifically documented, the OP has to make a decision whether to stay in a relationship where the significant other is vulnerable to being locked away if caught or ii) has the potential to be or may already be addicted.
I would assume that the OP does wish for a long term relationship and that children might be part of her plans. I personally would not want to be in a relationship where I could not rely on my spouse to be around due to incarceration or addiction-related issues. There are so many fish in the sea and marriage/relationships are hard enough without starting from such an unstable foundation.
This is by no means a judgemental post. People do need to make their own choices on what substances they take, be it caffeine, nicotine or cocaine. However, if your "chosen" lifestyle or behaviour begins to have a detrimental impact on those close to you (your partner or children), you should really "man up" and take responsibility to curtail such behaviour.
If the OP's partner chooses self gratification as his priority or actually has a serious addiction which he/she cannot control, either scenario is not a good foundation for a long term relationship.
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People like remmy should be put in jail so to reduce influence on younger and naive people. Why don't u go to other countries in Asia with your cocaine? You'd be sentenced to life or death. drug is not tolerable full stop. Because your life is so insignificant that u take cocaine. You cannot write it here, you're like a criminal trying to justify his crime. Me stupid? Looks who is talking. Again your spoiled life is the only reason for you to enjoy cocaine. Comparing drugs with foods, certainly cocaine has impacted your brain and you are not fit to stay in hkg. Why don't u live in Indonesia or Thailand or Singapore? Take yoursh*t out my place, you're not welcomed. People like you who try to justify drug usage must be expelled from this country.
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Remmy, i get your point about drug use la tee da. i am also for the legalization of drugs for many reasons.
however, you're being an idiot.
the original poster's fiance lied about doing drugs! that is huge ! he spent thousands of dollars weekly and has been borrowing money to do so !!
out the door with this joker ! she's very lucky that she caught him.
find a guy that is responsible with his drug use, can afford it and is honest about it
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mayo
11 yrs ago
Cocaine in it's pure form should not be physically addictive and has legitimate medical uses. However it is extremely expensive and should you be able to afford it and you can get your hands on it it can still be psychologically addictive. What your boyfriend has is most likely street cocaine full of undeterminable additives. This is whole different kettle of fish. High risk from both a legal and mortality perspective and a highly addictive all rounder. I say if it wasn't acceptable when you found out don't give yourself time to be talked around, go with your gut.
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It's naive to compare cocaine and unhealthy food stuffs like cake!
There is evidence that cocaine can physically alter the physical structure of the brain after initial use:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/26/cocaine-decision-making_n_3818400.html
To imply that cocaine addiction is something that can be easily managed by sensible individuals is really irresponsible, as its usage physically changes brain structures, which in turn affects the motivation and cognitive abilities needed to make sensible decisions.
As for legalization of drug usage, we need to be less egocentric and look at the overall cost/benefit to society, and further need to have a social responsibility to protect children (and the underprivileged) who are the most likely to suffer from widespread availability of addictive substances.
Too often, drug users (casual or otherwise) are strong proponents of legalization without thinking through the practical implications to society. Of course, cocaine quality would improve and product would become cheaper. However, widespread availability would lead to greater usage in society, which is likely to have a net detrimental effect (adding a burden to the medical system for treatment of addiction and mental disease, inducing a less productive work force, and potentially raising crime rates).
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Just wanted to point out that the OP did not say her fiance lied about drugs and only suspects that the borrowed money is for drugs.
The legalities of drug taking aside, doesn't look like the fiance has done anything wrong towards the OP.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
Couldn't agree more of those posts for you Remmy, comparing drugs to "unhealthy" food stuffs are simply hilarious. as mentioned on the previous topic go ahead and make your move to legalize drugs or should i say legalize "you" in taking drugs. take along with you those who believe in your cause and ideas and lets see where it would take you guys. lol!!! whatever which way, no justification will be enough the fact that your doing drugs is still illegal here in hkg.
I would long to see the day when you get caught and make use of your drug using benefit arguments to the authorities. =)
"Officer, this is just like you taking your coffee, blah blah blah"
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
@Rettit Re – “People like remmy should be put in jail so to reduce influence on younger and naive people”. Actually, its people like you who sought to impose their own bissed and warped view of morals on others that should go to jail. Indeed, there are many like you still in existence, who seek to persecute people for exercise their freedom of choice (be it their sexual practices, religion, what they wear, etc). In the past Nazies were a good example of this. These days is Muslim extremists and religious radicals who more commonly do this.
“drug is not tolerable full stop.”. Actually it’s the other way around. All drugs should be tolerable, and you should respect peoples freedom of choice and inherent right to self-ownership and self-freedom of themselves.
“Because your life is so insignificant that u take cocaine”. I think you are missing the point. My life is great. I am not advocating that anyone should take any particular drug, but rather that they should have the right do to so. And for the record my “drugs” of choice are primarily alcohol, and caffeine, the former of which is much more harmful to users and to society than many illegal drugs, and the latter of which is a highly addictive substance taken these days even by school kids, with the profits going to US multinational companies).
“People like you who try to justify drug usage must be expelled from this country.”. I really think you may simply be stupid to understand the points I am trying to make (in summary, we all use drugs, believe it or not, and we should all have absolute freedom to do to ourselves what we wish to do).
Our country probably would actually be a better place if there were less bigots and zealots like you living here.
@Bawlucks Re - “the original poster's fiance lied about doing drugs! that is huge ! he spent thousands of dollars weekly and has been borrowing money to do so !!” Actually the fiance did not lie at all. Rather he told the truth. And secondly you are assuming he is spending thousands, and borrowing money do to so. Both are assumptions, driven by a bigoted view that “drug users have unstoppable appetites to use drugs, and will beg, borrow and steal etc to get money to do this”. The reality is that 99% of drug users in HK likely do it with their own hard earned money, and that their choice is not one which causes any significant financial harm to themselves. Also, I would think that a typical cocaine user in HK might be using a gram a week, mainly on weekends. So the cost will likely be around 1000 a week (around the price of a single bottle of champagne in a club) and actually less if he only occasionally dabbles.
@ Xpatwilier Re –“It's naive to compare cocaine and unhealthy food stuffs like cake”. Clearly there are differences, but there are also similarities and I am using these examples to get some of the bigots here to try to change their thinking. But to your point about changing brain chemistry, actually both substances actually do change mood and brain chemistry, and there is an arguable case for either regulating both due to dangers arising from overuse, and/or allowing freedom of choice, with the focus instead being on education of users.
@ Peds (and others) – You might not realize it, both most of the West/civilized world is actually moving more towards self-freedom, based both on philosophical/moral principles, but also based on a better understanding of medicine and science. You guys are all examples of white people who back in the day where caught up in the middle of a movement to give blacks equal rights- ie you can understand some of the arguments, but your background, stereotypes, and ingrained biases and bigotry are hard to entirely remove.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
By the way, and almost entirely on que, did anyone notice the article here that Ed quitely put up?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130910-drug-addiction-the-complex-truth
I'm not sure it its a coincidence, or his way of basically telling you that I am right, but either way, do give it a read (epecially the bigots and less educated among you).
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Remmy and Bawble, if the guy is spending only a $1000 dollars a week, and is needing to borrow money...
you dont think he is borrowing money for drugs ?! maybe he's borrowing money for the SCMP and morning coffee and he's paying for the drugs with his own income ...??!8^/
also, imo, if your partner is doing coke, weekly, behind your back. coming home to you high, that is lying.
coke is not an addictive drug. it is simply very very enjoyable. I have used a good amount of times and stopped very easily without any problems.
My main problem with this guy is that he hid the fact that he is doing coke on such a regular basis ( lied ), and has also borrowed cash in the process.
clown of the Earth! lose this guy !
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@ Remmy - I am not an extremist in so far as I still believe in personal freedom to live your life how you like and take whatever drugs you like.
However, my point is that certain behaviours have real and detrimental effects on others (and clearly then, this is not just about personal freedom any more).
It's rather misleading, even as an example, to equate mood-enhancing items/activities as the same, e.g. i get a buzz from caffeine and cocaine, but I don't treat them both as equally damaging or beneficial. Obviously, it's a matter of degree and susceptibility to addiction and potential for negative impact on one's life that is the real issue.
It's easy to label people as bigots because they want to keep Class A drugs out of the reach of the general public, but this is slightly unfair. I think many people would take the view that the potential detriments to society (addiction, medical issues, crime) far outweigh the rather superficial and transient benefits of cocaine usage (self expression and gratification).
One cannot treat freedom of choice as an absolute given right, especially in a social context, where actions/choices of an individual can encroach upon the well-being of others. Your actions should be accountable to yourself as well as the community in which you find yourself.
My personal concern on drug usage stems from an acknowledgement of the fallibility of people to act rationally and sensibly, especially when a confluence of physiological changes and inherent social problems/pressures can exacerbate the dependence on drug usage.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
"And for the record my “drugs” of choice are primarily alcohol, and caffeine" - so what you say now is that you have not used drugs even for what you say recreation? or you use it a couple of times as well along with your primary "drugs"?
Going back to the OP, just make him choose wether it be the drugs or you. just be ready of the consequences when you get married and he gets back on the habit. at the end of the day, whatever the feedbacks here it all boils down how much you love him and how much would you sacrifice for it.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
"And for the record my “drugs” of choice are primarily alcohol, and caffeine" - so what you say now is that you have not used or do not use drugs even for what you say occasionally / recreation? <<< Still haven't replied on this huh?!?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Peds, my use of coffee and alcohol is, I admit both for "recreation" but also for the taste. I enjoy both the taste of a nice glass of wine and/or an espresso. But I also enjoy their effects on my brain - yes, I admit it :). For other's its marijuana they prefer. Each to his own. My point is that I should have the right to do this tomyself if I so wish, so long as I don't hurt others in the process.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
point taken, i do believe so with the term to each of his own.
so just to clarify, you have never or may not be taking any more of those prohibited "drugs"
"My point for the last time, is that ALL people in HK are drug users. Yes, you are too, believe it or not."
but it is noticed that you may be generalizing all to much. case in point from the statement above, i would be able to say MOST, as ALL would pertain to even the elderly and kids, even as with moderation, would you think you would give your kid a dose of cocaine or even marijuana?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Peds - all people are organisms whose behavious is affected, regulated and modified by drugs. Readers might think my references to chocolate cake are far-feteched, and I can understand not all of you are educated specifically as medical doctors or psycholgists, so for those people do take a minute to listen to this very simple explanation: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=0009AD9A-F2A4-1537-B2A483414B7F00FF
So yes, we are ALL drug users, even from before the time we are born and until the day we die.
As for marijuana for kids or coke (both the powder and the softdrink), no I would not reccomend it. I WOULD though reccomend early education to children on scientific topics, healthy lifestyles, informed choice etc.
As for kids using stimulants, coffee use is a MUCH bigger for kids that zelots like rittit should concern themselves with cf cocaine. As is the HUGE number of kids being prescribed Ritalin and Adderal etc (which are extremely powerful stimulants, chemically very similar to cocaine).
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@Remmy - I qualified my statements to emphasize the severity of "drugs" noting that things are on a continuum. Your rants take everything to the extreme, such that my wish to label things as Class A drugs (for convenience and through conventional shorthand) is equated to Nazism and oppression of homosexuals ???? Are you for real?
I also mentioned that laws do need to take into account the benefits to society as a whole, yet you focus on your individual selfish rights above all else. You really are doing yourself a disservice through your angry tirades!
Furthermore, I have personally also taken illegal substances in my past and therefore I am not taking an overly angelic stance on life. However, you need to grow up and accept that your free wheeling self rights above all else attitude shows a distinct lack of social responsibility and maturity.
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@rittit - although you may disagree with Remmy's views, he has a right to voice his opinions as long as he justifies them with reasons, which he has done so. You don't have to agree with his views, but to I do not believe threatening to call the police is necessary or warranted!
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Peds
11 yrs ago
@Remmy - i know you would resort to that lolz!!! its a no brainer for you to explain about organisms and stuff yadda yadda, of course they do take it in any form or the other. science 101.
but then again with you generalizing your statement is far out man! why veer away from the drug the OP is asking about and go though all of this?
and going back to your advocacy of legalizing the use of cocaine, you your self even would not even dare to give it to children whereas you explained earlier that these are safe provided that sufficient information is provided so to regulate the use. could this be as you know for a fact that these are NOT really good? how contradicting right?
With your explanation based on what you have researched,don't be a narcissist by calling names as i assume your not as educated as well specifically in the field of medicine and psychology since you just provided materials that others have studied and performed the tests for you. i guess google is your study buddy for your research work.
You still though have not confirmed whether you have used or is using these "drugs" cocaine specifically as this is the topic that started this thread, point in case , How could you possible advocate an idea without you being the living proof of it or all of these discussions are just thoughts/ideas from an armchair expert?
as as such time and again, since you are so into the the theory and have scientific evidence to back it up, start your movement and have these so called illegal drugs be regulated and thus legal.
else just forever be the forum guy who when a topic related to drug arises in any thread would be similar to a dog chasing cars.
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skks
11 yrs ago
I think you know what you need to do - but aren't sure you want to do it - you need to dump this bloke and move one. Drugs aren't the issue, addiction is the issue, and if he is headed down that road, it will get worse, much much worse, before it gets better (if it ever does get better). Ultimately, your happiness and sanity be infected by his disease. Act soon while you are still less entangled. And you leaving could actually help him.
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the problem isn't addiction. the problem is this guy's morals.
saying that this guy has a disease is ridiculous.
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What do you consider immoral?
That he took an illegal substance? Many here have done so in the past, they are all immoral too?
That he did it behind the OPs back? Ever sneaked a cigarette when your SO was not around? Ate some cake when you were on a diet?
I don't advocate the use of cocaine nor have I ever used it myself but I believe it is ignorant and in some cases hypocritical to say that just because he has used drugs he is the scum of the earth and undeserving of even the chance of a relationship.
He's not lied, how about recommend that they actually talk and communicate as a couple?
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bawble,
what i find immoral, is that he has been doing coke for god knows how long, without her knowing. he has surely spent time with her, secretly high, come home to her high etc.
and he has borrowed money!!
i find nothing immoral about taking drugs responsibly. i have, as i said above. im all for the legalization and regulation of all drugs! ignorant people on here claiming that coke is addictive etc. idiots threatening to call the police! lol im over discussing such stupidity.
he has lied! you think he told her that he is spending thousands on coke when he borrowed money?! you think spending time with your fiancé high, without her knowing isnt lying ?!
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Xpatwillier, the thing is that too much emphasis is put on the drug manufacturer and dealers whereas users are treated as victims and there are also clinics to treat them who avoid jail term. The real victims such as kids could be saved and protected but people such as Remmy who intentionally use drug for his pleasure and then went all his way to convince others that it is ok to use drugs because it's so natural like eating food then it is a danger to the society in that it promotes the usage of illegal drugs and that for me is the same as manufacturing or distributing drugs (he talked about nazis who were very good in propaganga) and so it's a criminal act. I don't know why Ed deleted my previous message in which I highlight the danger of people like Remmy who will continue to perpetrate illegal drug usage and use any platform such as this one to promote it (in fact he wanted to prove that he's normal because using on a regular basis illegal drug is perfectly normal and acceptable. it is such an attitude which encourage drug dealers and manufacturers). Clearly this guy is sick and needs therapy and must not be allowed to make propaganda on drugs. He then talked about nazis and Muslims ... Clearly the long usage of cocaine has impacted to think clearly. Freedom?? You clearly shows the impact on society and for drugs to the younger ones who we must protect.
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Wow, Rititt... miss the boat much ?
Did you even read Remmy's last post??
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You guys are so naive!!! It is because illegal drugs are illegal that they are not regulated and hence no control which in turn encourage manufacturers to use any chemicals, usually cheap and harmful, which gives high effect. It is the uncontrolled substance used which are the killers, you don't know what you inject inside your body and usually those sh*t substance damaged your brain. Pure and not mixed product such as marijuana, opium are different from the cocaine or amphetamines you buy from the backstreets or in clubs. And so for naive people out there, it is because it is illegal, don't touch because not only it is illegal but also you don't know what you inject inside your body!
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Why u make it so personal? Did I hit your nerve? You want to meet me in person and so you have the balls to tell me face to face?
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I guess our interpretation is just different.
What matters is how the OP interprets his behaviour. She has admitted that she knows little about cocaine and its effect and hopefully (some of the ignorant comments aside) this thread has provided her some insight into the matter.
With this knowledge she can judge for herself whether she wants to continue on with this relationship.
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Stop insulting people with your comments.
You want to insult me, I give you the opportunity to insult me face to face do to prove you have the balls for that.
I stop ready Remmy comments. All I know is that he takes too lightly the usage of illegal drugs. There is no perfect solution but once you accept and promote illegal usage there is no more guideline and oversight in this world and propaganda is as bad as dealing or manufacturing. It is you who don't understand and have a wider vision.
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Elcee
11 yrs ago
Elizabeth Sleasman Obituary
Date of Birth:
Saturday, March 13th, 1976
Date of Death:
Tuesday, August 6th, 2013
Funeral Home:
Jerns Funeral Chapel
jernsfuneralchapel.net
800 East Sunset Drive
Bellingham, Washington, UNITED STATES
98225
Obituary:
Elizabeth Sue Sleasman was born in Bellingham to Mark and Margaret (Radisich) Sleasman. Attended schools in the Mt. Baker District, graduating in 1994. She was preceded in death by her grandparents: Sid & Dorothy Sleasman; Gerald & Margaret Rowe; her brother Paul Olsen, Jr.; her nephew Mark Sleasman, II; her uncle Jack Radisich and her aunt, Marlene Mitzelfeldt.
She is survived by her parents; daughter Kayla of Spokane, WA; brothers: John Olsen of Portland, OR; Curt (Amanda) Sleasman; and Bill (Samantha) Sleasman all of Bellingham, WA.; nieces, Sidney Sleasman and Emma Gray; nephews Parker Sleasman and Gabriel Gray all of Bellingham, WA; uncle Dale (Darlene) Sleasman of Ferndale, WA; sister-in-law, Carol Olsen; nephew Joshua Olsen and niece Amber Olsen all of McMinnville, OR; also her best friend, Kara Peters Tryon; and many cousins and friends.
In lieu of flowers, donation may be made in Sue's name to Bellingham Baptist Church building fund, 2501 Orleans St., Bellingham, WA 98226
Please sign the Book of Memories, light a candle and leave your condolences for the family at www.JernsFuneralChapel.net
The remainder of the obituary was written by Sue several years prior to her death with permission to change times and dates fitting with the time of her death which she knew was inevitable.
Message from Sue:
I ask that EVERY parent and grandparent show this to their teens, even if they are perfect children. I was a perfect daughter, and my parents never knew I was using and drinking for at least the first five years (age 12 to 17), then only suspected it until the last ten years of my life when I couldn’t hide it any more.
Message to the teens: If you haven’t started - don’t. If you have, quit NOW. Your drinking/drug using friends are not really friends, they will steal from you, use you, and will do anything to get another “fix” - just like me. What starts out as fun for the first year or so, ends up to be a horrible, lonely life. During the last ten years, I never knew from one day to the next where I was going to be, I ate out of garbage cans, begged, and stole. I slept in bushes, doorways, abandoned vehicles, and nearly froze to death in the winter. Most of the time I was high or coming down, and much of that time, did not know what I was saying or doing - I could remember very little of what happened the night before. While using, I thought I was invincible and nothing could ever happen to me - after all, I was the “safest” user out there. I had a little girl who, because of my drinking and drugging was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and other very serious problems. I did not believe this, I believed she was perfect and only a little slow; and of course, it was not my fault - she will need specialized care for the rest of her life - again, not my fault, or so I thought.
You will become a thief and a liar, next you will lose your family, your “real” friends, and eventually your life. I started with Marijuana, and alcohol. It did not take very long for me to be so hooked on hard drugs that I could not have quit if I wanted to. Some of my closest “friends” overdosed and died; I did not quit. The light of my life, my daughter, was taken away - even then, I could not quit.
I entered the Methadone treatment and stopped using, but unfortunately my drinking habit kept on and I started using again. More recently I was admitted to the hospital because I was vomiting blood - my stomach was raw and the lining split because of crystal meth and alcohol. The doctors glued it together, and tried to get me to go to treatment - I said I would do it myself. I have quit now, but I am dead; don’t wait as long as I did, give your life another chance.
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Rititt, i didnt know that you didnt read his comments. you should. you should also look at the link he provided. inform yourself.
Elcee, that's quite a post!! i have tried 'illegal' drugs. havent in many many years. however, it's amazing that i never ended up eating out of garbage cans, begging, stealing from friends and sleeping in bushes !! i guess i was lucky!
why do you think i was so lucky?
and when you see propaganda saying that 'illegal' drugs such as marijuana are so bad, even though science clearly states otherwise, dont you think that the intended propaganda actually does the opposite of its intention ?
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To all those who use cocaine, do some reading about how it is produced and make up your own mind. For those who cant be bothered to read watch some video's about it.
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Sorry I forgot to say, if you still have no issue, type "drug lab houses uninhabitable' into Google and do some more reading. If you are still are pro drugs, spend some time in a rehabilitation clinic and see how that works for you.
Be an adult and do your own research and if you still think manufactured drugs are a good thing, well there is not much more to say.
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Not all "illegal" drugs are the same.
Marijuana is different from Cocaine is different from Herion etc......
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Beermoney, do you know how everything that you put into your body is made?
some things are bad for you. i havent seen a post on here saying that doing coke is good for you. have you?
saying that coke is addictive is false. saying that if you do coke, youll end up in a gutter is false.
Ive seen that video u posted a long time ago. its very sad how that unregulated business results in such environmental damage.
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Re the food question - No I do not, however when I am not sure, I do my own research and then make a choice! My posts above are only to get people to ask the question about how it's made and then make a choice.
An example of this is that there is enough Cyanide in 1 cigarette to set off the Cyanide detector alarm in an average Cyanide factory. I am aware of this and still choose to smoke! I will die smoking but at least I will be free as a bird and not locked up in a cage.
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Elcee, thanks for putting this. it's clear, drug users will lose control and the thing is that they can't realize they lose control, they will continue to think that all is normal until the tragedy comes and it would be too late. as for any drug addicted, illegal drug or alcohol, the first thing is to recognize and admit. but most of the time, they can't because it has affected their brain.
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Beermoney, thanks for showing the film.
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You can't compare occasional cocaine use to herion addiciton (Elcee's post) or alcoholism. Not all drug users are addicts and not all drugs are addictive.
Your blanket statement is misinformed and spreads ignorance.
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not only you lost all reality but you also lost your reading ability: READ: "I started with Marijuana".
if you want to play with fire, that's your "freedom" but don't burn the house where children are sleeping.
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I started with beer, now I'm a full blown alcoholic who is addicted to 18 year old Single Malt Scotch.
We should make beer illegal. All beer drinkers kill their children.
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just wait until one of your children (if you have any, it doesn't look like you have any since you have shown a total lack of responsibility in writing what you wrote; it's not a funny thing when innocent victim life is at stake) dies of overdose then you wouldn't be as sacarstic as you are now.
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"saying that coke is addictive is false"
as i expected, regular coke usage make them hallucinate! and then they can't read or they can but since they hallucinate, they don't understand, or they understand in their own way, what is written.
here's an extract from wikipedia:
"After taking cocaine on a regular basis, the user will almost inevitably become addicted."
Cocaine dependence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Not to be confused with Cockayne syndrome.
Cocaine dependence
Classification and external resources
ICD-10 F14.2
ICD-9 304.2
eMedicine med/3116
MeSH D019970
Cocaine dependence (or addiction) is a psychological desire to use cocaine regularly. Cocaine overdose may result in cardiovascular and brain damage such as constricting blood vessels in the brain, causing strokes and constricting arteries in the heart, causing heart attacks [1] specifically in the central nervous system.
The use of cocaine creates euphoria and high amounts of energy much like caffeine. if taken in large unsafe doses, it is possible to cause mood swings, paranoia, insomnia, psychosis, high blood pressure, tachycardia, panic attacks, cognitive impairments and drastic changes in personality, also like caffeine.
The symptoms of cocaine withdrawal (also known as comedown or crash) range from moderate to severe: dysphoria, depression, anxiety, psychological and physical weakness, pain and compulsive craving.
Historically, the addiction was known as cocainism.[2]
Contents
1 Signs and symptoms
2 Risk
3 Mechanism of dependence
4 Treatment
4.1 Withdrawal symptoms
4.2 Therapy
4.3 Medications
5 Epidemiology
6 See also
7 Notes
8 References
Signs and symptoms
Many habitual abusers develop a transient manic-like condition similar to amphetamine psychosis and schizophrenia, whose symptoms include aggression, severe paranoia, and tactile hallucinations (including the feeling of insects under the skin, or "coke bugs, also known as formication.") during binges.[3]
Risk
According to a study of 1081 US residents aged over 11 years who had used cocaine for the first time within 24 months prior to assessment, the risk of becoming cocaine-dependent within 2 years of first use (recent-onset) is 5-6%; after 10 years, it increases to 15-16%. These are the aggregate rates for all types of use considered, i.e., smoking, snorting, injecting. Among recent-onset users, the relative rates are higher for smoking (3.4 times) and much higher for injecting. They also vary, based on other characteristics, such as sex: among recent-onset users, women are 3.3 times more likely to become addicted, compared with men; age: among recent-onset users, those who started using at ages 12 or 13 were 4 times as likely to become addicted, compared with those who started between ages 18 and 20.[4]
However, a study of non-deviant[nb 1] users in Amsterdam found "relative absence of destructive and compulsive use patterns over a ten year period" and concluded that cocaine users can and do exercise control. "Our respondents applied two basic types of controls to themselves: 1) restricting use to certain situations and to emotional states in which cocaine's effects would be most positive, and 2) limiting mode of ingestion to snorting of modest amounts of cocaine, staying below 2.5 grams a week for some, and below 0.5 grams a week for most. Nevertheless, those whose use level exceeded 2.5 grams a week all returned to lower levels."[5]
Mechanism of dependence
It is speculated that cocaine's intense addictive properties stem partially from its DAT-blocking effects (in particular, increasing the dopaminergic transmission from ventral tegmental area neurons). However, a study has shown that mice with no dopamine transporters still exhibit the rewarding effects of cocaine administration.[6] Later work demonstrated that a combined DAT/SERT knockout eliminated the rewarding effects.[7] The rewarding effects of cocaine are influenced by circadian rhythms,[8] possibly by involving a set of genes termed "clock genes".[9]
There is a correlation between a variant of the CAMK4 gene and cocaine addiction; a German study found that addicts were 25% more likely to have a variant of the gene than people who did not use cocaine.[10][11]
However, chronic cocaine addiction is not solely due to cocaine reward. Chronic repeated use is needed to produce cocaine-induced changes in brain reward centers and consequent chronic dysphoria. Dysphoria magnifies craving for cocaine because cocaine reward rapidly, albeit transiently, improves mood. This contributes to continued use and a self-perpetuating, worsening condition, since those addicted usually cannot appreciate that long-term effects are opposite those occurring immediately after use.
Research has shown that chronic cocaine use reduces the expression of a protein, called Rac1, known to regulate brain plasticity, producing a greater sensitivity to the rewarding effects of cocaine. This results in large increase in the number of physical protrusions or spines that grow out from the neurons in the reward center of the brain.[12]
Treatment
A study published in May 2008, in the journal Molecular Psychiatry, detailed the effect of long-term cocaine intake on the amount and activity of thousands of proteins in monkeys. The researchers used "proteomic" technology, which enables the simultaneous analysis of thousands of proteins, to compare the "proteome" (all proteins expressed at a given time) between a group of monkeys that self-administered cocaine and a group that did not receive the drug. The study provides a comprehensive assessment of biochemical changes occurring in the cocaine-addicted brain. The profound changes in structure, metabolism and signaling of neurons may explain why relapse occurs and why it is difficult to reverse these changes after the drug use is discontinued.[13]
This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2010)
On February 14, 2011, two Swiss psychologists, Dr. Geneva Francois Crespo and Dr. Sylvie Petit Jean, published two years of trials and research which demonstrates that gambling along with psychotherapy is the best method to break the cocaine addiction cycle. According to Dr. Crespo - "After cocaine is used, it activates the reward center inside the brain. The brain released euphoric hormones and neurotransmitters such as dopamine, oxytocin and adrenaline which act as a mood enhancer. The same occurs with gambling: the brain perceives a reward from winning or the potential of a reward. The reward causes intense moments of happiness, which compensate for the desire to use cocaine". Further research is being conducted on long term relapse rates.[14][15]
Withdrawal symptoms
After taking cocaine on a regular basis, the user will almost inevitably become addicted. When the drug is discontinued immediately, the user will experience what has come to be known as a "crash" along with a number of other cocaine withdrawal symptoms, including paranoia, depression, exhaustion, anxiety, itching, mood swings, irritability, fatigue, insomnia, an intense craving for more cocaine, and in some cases nausea and vomiting. Some cocaine users also report having similar symptoms to schizophrenia patients and feel that their mind is lost. Some users also report formication: a feeling of a crawling sensation on the skin also known as "coke bugs". These symptoms can last for weeks or, in some cases, months. Even after most withdrawal symptoms dissipate most users feel the need to continue using the drug; this feeling can last for years and may peak during times of stress. About 30-40% of cocaine addicts will turn to other substances such as medication and alcohol after giving up cocaine. There are various medications on the market to ease cocaine withdrawal symptoms.[16]
Therapy
Twelve-step programs such as Cocaine Anonymous (modeled on Alcoholics Anonymous) have been widely used to help those with cocaine addiction. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) combined with Motivational Therapy (MT) have proven to be more helpful than 12 step programs in treating cocaine dependency.[17] However, both these approaches have a fairly low success rate. Cocaine vaccines are in clinical trials that will limit the rewarding effects from cocaine.[18] The National Institutes of Health of US, particularly National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) is researching modafinil, a narcolepsy drug and mild stimulant, as a potential cocaine treatment. Ibogaine has been under investigation as a treatment for cocaine dependency-and is used in clinics in Mexico, the Netherlands and Canada, but cannot be used legally in the USA. Non pharmacological treatments such as acupuncture[19][20] and hypnosis[21][22] have been explored, but without conclusive results. Cocaine addiction continues to be the most difficult to manage behind heroin, and according to some scientists, addiction to cocaine may be almost impossible to stop.[23][24]
Medications
Medications that have been investigated include Acetylcysteine,[25][26][27] Baclofen,[28][29] Bupropion,[30] Vanoxerine,[31] and Vigabatrin.[28] Dr. Kim Janda has been working for years on a vaccination that would cure cocaine addiction.[32]
Epidemiology
Cocaine use disorder resulted in about 500 deaths in 2010[33] while alcohol has been shown to cause on average 75,000 a year.[34]
See also
SB-277011-A - a dopamine D3 receptor antagonist, used in the study of cocaine addiction. Where cocaine reduces the threshold for brain electrical self-stimulation in rats, an indication of cocaine's rewarding effects, SB-277011-A completely reverses this effect.
Notes
^ The study's authors stated that they wanted to know which effects and consequences of cocaine use would become visible with persons who are mainstream citizens or as close to that social stratum as possible
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The irony is that your attitude quite possibly may have the opposite effect.
Children, teenagers in particular, can be rebellious. You forbid them to do something, or try to scare them into not doing something will quite often mean that they want to do it even more! After all, forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest.
Bringing it back to the topic of drugs. Scare stories and making drugs unavailable only has a limited impact in curbing a person's natural curiosity in wondering what it does. They want to try it.
To answer your question, no I don't have any children but when I do I would not be concerned about drugs overdoses.
I plan to arm my kids with the only thing they need and that is knowledge.
Educate them about drugs and their effects, not just physical effects, but also mental, social, economic etc... use facts and studies, not scaremongering. Then they can make their own informed decisions. And if they do want to take it, (lets be honest, many of us experimented in college) they know what it does and can do so in a safe and controlled manner.
Drugs don't kill people. People kill people. Ignorance kills people.
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Ed
11 yrs ago
I've deleted a few comments - please do not insult others here - we will suspend your account if this continues
thank you
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Can't believe what I read! You don't have kids and you know already how to raise them! Before even contemplating how to raise them, find a wife and have one baby first and learn how to change a diaper before attacking the drug issue. If you don't have any experience, at least try to listen first then try to understand.
Saying that, I stop here, just a waste of time, I only hope others would be conscious that drug issue shouldn't be taken lightly, there is life at stake
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@Bawbie & @rititt
The correct approach to protecting children is a COMBINATION of
1) education - medical/social/physical effects.
2) restricting the ready availability of drugs. Teenagers may be rebellious and subject to peer influences, so relying merely on education/rational decision making is insufficient.
Social context - take into account that not all people are in privileged earning brackets that make drug usage a purely recreational activity. In deprived areas, substance abuse is extremely detrimental to the community. Obviously, alcohol is already available but also making cocaine readily available merely exacerbates the problems.
(PS please don't argue that we should just ban alcohol too, as a matter of principle. We live in a real world where money talks and lobbies have a stranglehold over government policies.
It's far easier to prevent the legalizing of new stimulants than it is to ban existing ones).
PS This is not intended to be patronizing (in all honesty), but as a parent you will find that your priorities become less self-centred and focus more on the well being of your children. So if the choice is between legalizing drugs to allow some adults to freely enjoy themselves or restricting drugs & imposing heavy penalties to make it harder for kids to get hold of drugs, it's a very simple decision.
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I absolutely will not tolerate drugs or drug users in any way - full stop.
My son was using coke and I did not know. One day the police came and searched the house and found the packet containing a moderate amount of coke, I guess from a tip off from one of his mates or in some other way.
My son and his gf were sent to a holding centre in NT for three months to check whether or not they were addicted - they both came out clean as they claimed they only used it occasionally and it seems they were just unlucky to be found out !!!!! They both went to court and were charged with possession and more. Then there followed a long period of probation, drug concelling and a whole lot of other administrative things - some of which I was bound to attend as a father (even though my son was 24 at the time). Yes I was bound to attend.
I and my wife were interviewed at great length about my family background, social habits, stability etc etc because the police did not believe I nor my wife could not know. I still face problems from that one search and it is now three years on. I just cannot put into words what I and my wife went through and I cannot comprehend what my son and his gf went through. She like the original poster of the article claims she was not aware – her life changed dramatically. She went to the drug centre, drug concelling, on probation. She now finds it very hard to get a job or to trust people.
Do not underestimate how your life can change if your partner gets caught and you live with him. It has certainly changed my life, my wifes life and my sons gf’s life in ways you cannot imagine UNTIL it happens to you. It was a whole lot of stress I could do without and all because I just did not know.
Looking back, my son is clean (I think) and I have learned a lot from the experience but thank god that my involvement and journey with the police and the authorities was one of prevention – I have nightmares about the scenario of the police calling at my door for something much worse – something I could never get over.
I have not forgiven my son and nor can I trust him anymore – those priceless things were torn from me the day the police came to my door.
My advice is to pack your bags.
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I cant wait to see the reply to Bastille comment from the pro drugs camp.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
@beermoney
I might as well get some popcorn =)
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The pro drugs camp will just say that the penalties were excessive and unwarranted, and that this example directly supports their position that drugs should be legalized.
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I think Bastille made a good post, it is certainly very relevant for the OP with first hand evidence of what could happen in her situation.
However, I would point out that the impact was not due to the physical effects of the drug per se but rather due to it being illegal. This actually illustrates a point made by CaptDave earlier in this thread so it is something the OP should think about as well.
For cocaine, I'm rather indifferent as to whether it should be legalised or not, I don't use it and have no desire to try it.
On one hand, if misused or used irresponsibly it can have devastating effects and so restricting it's availability makes sense. On the other hand, legalising it allows more quality control making it safer to use.
I'd probably still lean towards legalising as I believe in freedom of choice but with that freedom there should be responsibility.
In the OP's case, I think there is room for reconciliation if he agrees to stop and there is nothing to suggest that he won't be able to stop. If only for the pure fact that he is breaking the law.
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Legality issues aside:
OP noted that her fiance has been borrowing money recently. Whether it's for drugs or otherwise, this usage has already triggered mistrust and shaken the foundations of their relationship. If he is already holding down a job and isn't making any specific investments or has a specific reason for cash, then this is a bad sign. OP needs to discuss WHY he is borrowing the money.
OP further noted that he uses cocaine twice a week (by his own admission), but this could be more frequent if he is downplaying the situation.
His usage is not occasional and recreational, but a regular crutch to enable him to function normally, i.e. stay awake.
There is alot of circumstantial evidence then to suggest that he may be reliant on cocaine to some degree, and it is well documented that repeated and frequent usage increases the chance of addiction. OP needs to discuss with her fiance and understand how long this usage has been in place, etc.
Reconciliation may be possible if he agrees to stop, and trust may be rebuilt over time.
It's a duty to herself to lay down her bottom-line requirements for a reconciliation and be honest to herself whether she can trust and respect this guy, ongoing.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Bastille, your post, and attuitde really saddens for me. I feel for your child, whom you have likely alienated, and made feel ashamed about doing something "bad", when actually they have not. And he was sent to a "holding center" and "counselling"? Who did he harm? No one!
What happened to your son, and your attitude to towards that, is reminicent of prior generations who felt ashamed and punished their kids for "wrongs" that are infact nothing but normal behaviour that is misundestood by closed minded people. In the past, parents may have been shocked by find Elvis or Beatles record in their kids rooms. Some parents punished their kids when they discoverd they wore makeup. The list goes on. Some considered masturbation a great evil, or heaven forbid, homosexuality (which incidentaly also resulted in many kids getting sent to "re-education" and "counselling" etc). In some countries it not wearing a burka, or being a female walking along in public that is considered shameful or wrong and or punishable.
The reality here is that what is WRONG here is not your child's curiosity or the pleasure he derives from taking a drug - the desire to alter one's consciousness is actually a normal human trait. Its starts extremely young (with kids enjoying getting dizzy from running in circles, or getting an adrenaline rush from going down a slide). And futher, he harmed no-one. You should be much less concered about what is or is not "legally" wrong, but rather you should consider and question the underlying morality of what he did. There are probabably a whole host of behaviours that are "legal" yet far more morally reprehensible/undesirable that you should be focussing your concerns on.
The problem here is the law, not what your son did. Let me make it very simple. If coffee or alcohol was suddenly made as illegal as cocaine, and cocaine in turn was made as legal as coffee or alcohol currently is, would you now be equally as shamed/shocked/concerned about your chlilds use of those substances?
Honestly, you sound like a genuinely caring parent, but just with a totally mixed up and biased view of what is right/wrong and this attitude really risks you alienating yourself from your child. As others have pointed out here, the key is legalization, education, and for people like you to question the underlying rationale of an "offence" and then deciding whether you agree with it or not.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
@ expatwiler:
"OP further noted that he uses cocaine twice a week (by his own admission), but this could be more frequent if he is “downplaying the situation”.
Hmm, “downplaying the situation”? I wonder if he is also “downplaying the situation” of how much coffee he drinks a day? Or how many calories he consumes”? Or how many times he goes to the toilet each day?
"His usage is not occasional and recreational, but a regular crutch to enable him to function normally, i.e. stay awake”.
Hmm, “a regular crutch to stay awake”. Like coffee you mean? I don't think that's what he is using it for. What he meant was he works hard, and occasionally enjoys a bit of a "pick me up" - nothing wrong with that.
"There is alot of circumstantial evidence then to suggest that he may be reliant on cocaine to some degree, and it is well documented that repeated and “frequent usage increases the chance of addiction”.
Hmm - “reliant to some degree". Hmm, like food you mean?
Hmm - “frequent usage increases the chance of addiction? Like coffee?
"Reconciliation may be possible if he agrees to stop, and trust may be rebuilt over time."
“Reconciliation”? For what? What has he done wrong? He was asked if he used a drug, and he answered it! He’s done nothing wrong here that warrants any mistrust by her, other than unfounded mistrust based on bigotry and bias.
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this is too good an opportunity to pass. ok then why not cancel all the laws? for example anyone could come to a shop and take whatever he/she likes without paying then since everyone could have what they want, there wouldn't be any need for stealing, hence stealing will be gone forever. or better even, anyone could come to your home and take your girl and rape her because there wouldn't be any law to protect anyone and you too you could go to your frienf house and rape his daughter, oe better your friend could rape his own daughter.
i can't believe there are still people like Remmy in this world. I was an anarchist when i was 18, ok it was fun, but nowadays? i can't believe the Immigration let people like him enter this country.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rititt, I am not sure if you are trolling or not, but assuming you really mean what you are writing, I'll answer.
When you are stealing from a shop, you are committing a wrong, and hurting another with your actions. The same applies to commiting a rape. I don't advocate any act which deliberately intends to harm another.
Now contrast this with acts that don't hurt others (surfing, wearing funny clothes, drinking a beer, listening to Elvis, committing a gay or lesbian act on a consenting adult, eating a chocoloate cake...). These are all acts where your biasses and bigotry should not result in a person doing such things being punished/re-educated etc, and where a person's inherent right to self-freedom and self-expression should prevail.
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@Remmy - please live in the real world, which does have laws and consequences. You can try to convince us to join your drug-legalization parade, but it's not addressing the practical concerns of the OP.
I have given the OP PRACTICAL advice:
1) Try to ascertain how severe her fiance's drug issue is. Find out how long he has taken it and is the frequency correct? Find out if he is reliant on it.
2) Find out why he is borrowing money. Is it for a valid reason, or to finance his drug habit? How common is his borrowing?
2) Can she accept the risk that he may be incarcerated for drug usage?
You keep talking about principles of freedom and how drugs don't affect other people. His actions ARE having a detrimental impact on her, psychologically and emotionally. If he is caught taking drugs the negative impact to her would be real and significant. If he is an addict (maybe he is maybe not), then this could be a real issue.
Can you help the OP besides telling her to have an open mind and join your pro-drugs lobby?
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Peds
11 yrs ago
Welcome back to this thread Remmy =)
You never cease to amuse me on how you tackle issues in handling illegal drugs, such as specifically for Bastille's experience. makes me wonder how would your children would turn out to be (correct me if i'm wrong) since your not a parent yourself?
Off course, they will be "free" to decide to feed one's curiosity even on the trying using illegal drugs.
what if, just what if they get "addicted" what then?
"Who did he harm? No one!" - hadn't the parents known earlier, would you know what would happen further down the road of using illegal drugs? would you wait for him to commit something regretful, worse case is to hurt someone?
so by the way, would you now have an answer if you have done or is currently doing illegal drugs?
no need to worry about the police being involved as i'm just curious about where your insights are coming from. A person who had/is using drugs or just an idealistic armchair expert.
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it's so obvious, i don't have to answer, xpatwilier immediately answered.
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@bastille - thanks for sharing your experience, especially as it serves a strong warning to the OP and others on the detrimental consequences of being caught.
Could you explain the basis for the lack of trust that now exists between you and your son?
1) Is it that he concealed his drug usage from you; or
2) is it that he committed an offense despite knowing it could have a detrimental impact to those close to him; or
3) some other reason(s)?
Hopefully, your experience can help others re-consider the practical implications of drug usage (and not just deal with idealistic principles) .
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
xpatwoler - you mention the "the practical concerns of the OP". As I have said before, these concerns stem primarily from stigma/biasses etc around this person's choice of drug. There is nothing inherently "wrong" or "bad" with the actions of the fiance in this case.
As for your comment that "His actions ARE having a detrimental impact on her, psychologically and emotionally.", yes, same for many parents if they find our their son is gay, or a non-Christian, or (pick whatever else irrational, harmless behaviour a child might chose to engage in). So again, the problem lies not with what her fiance did, but rather her interpretation of it.
As for calling me "pro-drugs" that a rather simplistic and misleading label, as it suggest perhaps that I encourage drug use. A better term would be "pro-choice" - ie allowing each person the choice to do with themselves as they please, provided this does not harm others".
Peds, my kids have turned great. Successful, happy, sensitive, smart, loving, empathetic, confident etc. I could not be happier with them! You speak again of how I would feel if they are addicited to "illegal drugs". As I have said before the illigality of their possibly addiction is of little concern to me. The addiction itself would be though, be it cigarettes, coffee, alcohol, or whatever. Honestly, if I had the choice between them being occasional cocaine users vs say fulltime ciggarette users I would choose the former for sure. Same with say if they used escacy once or twice a year vs being habitual binge drinkers or obese addicits to junk food.
Finally, your question have I done illegal drugs. The problem with his question is that if I had, and if I admitted it, I would be risking myself to persecution, and in theory prosecution as it would be pretty deceisive admission of a crime. So, much like a person during time of Nazi Germany having to disguise the fact the were a jew, or much like many homosexuals still hid this fact (either because bigots in society consider such acts "wrong" and/or "illegal", if I was a user, there would be reasons why I would be inclined to want to keep this fact private.
What I can tell you though is that I know literally thousands of people who have uses, or who do use marijuana, coke, estacy etc - all "illegal" as well as thousands who use coffee, alcohol, ciggarettes etc. Very very few of the former "illegal drugs" have had any problems, and a significant number are extremely successful, decent, smart people and positive contributors to society. THe biggest problems I have seen actually are more associated with use of legal drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco.
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I never stated OP's fiance's usage as right or wrong, but focused on the potentially detrimental effects it could have based on existing laws of HK.
I am anti-choice in respect to illegal drugs because children are not always as rational as your well brought up kids nor have the social stability to behave sensibly.
From personal experience I've seen friends deal drugs at school, turn to drugs for solace and end up in jail too (in uk). I simply can't rely on education alone to protect kids, but believe deterrents are strongly needed.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
Remmy,
Its great to know that you kids' state as you had described.
Citing examples comparing occasional drug users to full time cigarette smokers again veers away from the main question what would you do NOT what would you choose.
What would you do if you found out that they were addicted to drugs or lets say cigarettes , alcohol?.
If you would notice, a few in this thread had bravely admitted that they had been previous users which helped understand their thoughts as to what they have posted.
Should be a simple YES or NO, then some explanation right?
my guess is that given your overly exaggerated reason of persecution and all that brouhaha for you not tell/admit is that your using i should say "occasionally".
Though, still i'd respect your reason to be private about it.
Pro-choice you say? All throughout your posts about legalizing / regulating illegal drugs, all those research, comparing between illegal drugs vs coffee, chocolate cake, etc etc , the way you Label illegal drugs as "OK" to use then is also OK to choose then?
Oh its harmful to eat cakes, drink coffee etc etc so might as well can take drugs too because i have a choice?
Have you ever tried asking your kid, oh have a puff of this its just as harmful as eating the chocolate cake you had earlier.
Or your friends, hey man have a snort of this its just as harmful as the pint of beer you had earlier.
eating chocolates, drinking coffee , smoking cigarettes etc etc are dangerous to some extent and being pro-choice you may choose not to consume much of those if not stop. but giving a choice to do drugs is a no brainer. chemically inducing your body more so your brain to reach a certain high to be creative or what is definitely NOT a good choice either.
My point is no matter how much you describe that drugs are just as harmful to certain foods, that certain drugs are consumed on our everyday lives, its not enough to justify that you have a choice to take illegal drugs.
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Bastille, that's why I highlight the danger of people such as Remmy. The police and actually everyone will think that the parents have influence their kids to take drug (they need to interview and check your background), either they themselves take drugs or their loose and pro-choice attitude had facilitated their kids into taking drugs. There is also this stereotype image of the well to do western family (Hollywood films and Los Angeles) who casually take drugs in parties so it all create the ideal environment for kids to also take drugs as if it is a "cool" thing to do. In effect all this contribute to the success of drug dealers and manufacturers, so they are also much to blame. The laws must be strict on the use of drugs otherwise it would become like in the USA where drugs have contaminated the whole community because of its lenient punishment against users.
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Look at weapons in the USA. They legalize their usage, so everyone has one and everyone shoot at each others! That is pro-choice.
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and propaganda: the USA is no 1 in this with their blockbusters and everyday movies which depict the casual violence and drug usage. TV series also and worse are the music videos with scenes from parties where they are all stoned! those kids who not too long ago were the rejects are now the heros in the music video with their attitude of street fighters and drug dealers. That is so cool that all the kids want to imitate them. At the end, it's so easy to mix reality with fictions and so the kids like to live the life of their film characters with the result that they will use weapons and drugs. So we, as responsible parents, must crush whoever try to promote usage of drugs.
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for me a law without enforcement or control as you said, is not a law.
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Rititt - please direct your angst toward the lawlessness that prevails within our own country parks -
http://thehousenews.com/society/town-planning-board-did-not-wait-for-paul-chan-to-destroy-the-sai-kung-country-parks/
A much more deserved cause than the failed global war against drugs.
There are plenty of laws being broken and not enforced on your home ground before worrying about the somewhat irrelevant global drug laws.
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tred
11 yrs ago
well, still proud of my origin. Going back to basic, family is the basic unit of society. From which we learn to look at our parents, sisters, friends and after....society. I am still a product of old school. It sounds strange and weird because Hong Kong is a fast paced-too advanced, too free to do anything. It has good laws, economically advanced but the people aren't going to a good path. It is called civilization. I am proud that I am domestic helper with good values and true heart. Here in Hong KOng we are being bullied, looked down and most of the time insulted, but it doesn't matter as long as we are doing our job. If your fiance is doing cocaine and if you love him then carry him out of that thing. How many years have you known him? and still desame then you have a choice and its free and only you and no one else can decide. Funny though, but it's true a lot would just known for each other just for a night then trust your life with a man or a girl you haven't even known the background. My friend said Stand-up for life!
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really really stiff penalty for using cocaine in HK, I am talking about imprisonment likely to be 5+years
He need to get off, and better been REALLY SOON. You don't know if next time it is a patroling Police officer who find this out.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Peds, I want to answer your questions, but find it hard to see what you are asking.
If you are asking me whether I think that its morally OK for a person to use drugs for their own pleasure (whether illegal or not), my view is yes, its OK (and indeed I feel its morally wrong to impose a punishment on a person for exercising that choice).
Regarding your question "Have you ever tried asking your kid, oh have a puff of this its just as harmful as eating the chocolate cake you had earlier.", my answer is that I prefer to educate my kids, and encourage them to make educated and healthy choices. So, for example I would hope they chose not to smoke, not to eat junk food, and with regard to wine for example, or coffee, to drink it in moderation.
Re your comment "chemically inducing your body more so your brain to reach a certain high to be creative or what is definitely NOT a good choice either". That's your opinion. Other's don't share the same view, and would argue they their drug use enhanced the creativity. Indeed I could point you to an almost infinate example of music, painting, literatuture, film, brilliance etc that was inspired end enhanced by drug use. And lets not forget Steve's job's brilliance enhanced as a result of his LSD experiences. But in any case, the more impotant point here is that you should not have the right to condem the private choice of a person to do with his body and being as he wishes. This is really one of the most important, if not the most important and fundamental right we should have.
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Peds
11 yrs ago
I was asking simple things such as Have you or have you not, will you do this to your kid or your friend or not? simple eh?
I'm not sure why is it so difficult for you to grab the thought of a simple question answerable by either a yes or no then justify,
I guess it is really your way to throw off the discussion to somewhere else.. as answering it straightly would just make it hard for you to justify.
"That's your opinion. Other's don't share the same view, and would argue they their drug use enhanced the creativity. Indeed I could point you to an almost infinate example of music, painting, literatuture, film, brilliance etc that was inspired end enhanced by drug use. And lets not forget Steve's job's brilliance enhanced as a result of his LSD experiences." - True, but lets not forget as well that some of those individuals were taken down by their own drug use and caused their downward spiral AND If i may add, not all drug users are not successful as you are painting them to be, the ratio of those who ruin their lives far more outweighs those who are successful in their fields by using drugs.
the point here is so simple, you were stressing that using drugs can do some good for you and it is even comparable to eating certain foods that are quite harmful to our bodies to some extent.
Pro-choice i may agree with you on that, but painting a good picture for drugs use, never mind be my guest and knock you self out.
If you are a user - then we know where all of this is coming from as you yourself is basing all of this on your experience
If you had not even touched it - then who are you basing you knowledge of all of these? your friends who uses them? Your expertise in googling info about it? who are you lobbying then to legalize these types of drugs?
Its really funny that you are able to criticize other parents actions towards their children who had been caught using drugs when you yourself could not answer directly on what you would do if you were on their shoes but rather divert it some other example such as educate etc etc. the example in the situation is that the teen is already using it, just educate them you say? good luck on that.
condemning a private choice of a person - oh poor you, there there now, you should've been ready for that since you are in a public forum, people discuss their point of views and its a matter of backing it up with facts and justifying their ideas, claims and on where they stand. all throughout your answers to my questions are half relevant and half not.
Don't worry as this would me my last post to discuss with you cause this would not go anywhere since simple questions could not even be answered directly.
Thanks a lot though....this discussion was truly entertaining, come to think of it, i think you win on this as "drugs has truly inspired this".... those who say that its OK to use them and those who say NO. well.. pro-choice it is, whatever rocks your boat.
I'd still really long for the day to read in the news that some person would reason out with the authorities about pro-choice to use drugs. that would be a blast. lolz!!!
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Firstly thank you for all the supporting posts - I mean that from my point of view and for my son and his gf.
I feel I cannot trust my son because he stole money from me to get drugs, he denied ever using drugs, he claims he was set up etc etc all denials. Don’t get me wrong I have stood by him and his gf throughout but I feel the trust and the family bond which were once so strong were broken the day the police came.
The courts, probation officer, drug councilor etc all were very good and understanding with me and strong and firm with him and his gf - but the experience is a long one (three years) and it wears you down. The authorities insisted I get involved because they did not want the bond to break and they did not want this to develop and for us all to deal with something worse.
My son was taken to a holding centre in NT with visitation rights of one 15 minutes visit every week - booked a week in advance - arrive 15 minutes late and you have missed your slot - no carry in goods at all - conversation monitored etc etc. You have to book in person and if his friends booked a slot then I could not go – and some of his friends did because they thought it was great to visit a “prison’. Three months of this was awful on all of us. Then the court case when, as a parent I was ticked off and strongly advise to support the probation system for the sake of my son and his gf.
The drug councilor made me out to be a poor parent - I just did not know the situation and anyway he as 24 years old - he was an adult and very able to make decisions himself. He made some pretty poor decisions because he felt he was above the law - it wont happen to me (he thought) - BUT IT DID - and it brought our whole family into the frame. It caused problems between my wife and I - she is his stepmother - and for me I still have the searching questions - HOW COULD I NOT KNOW.
Some may say – if my partner gets caught then its just a day in court and probation and we can move on – yes you can but if the court sends you to NT holding centre for three months what do you tell your employer, how does your partner cope, 15 minutes per week, how can your relationship survive when the partner at home is left thinking “do I want this”, your trust levels will be shattered, you get yourself on the police radar even if you share the same house as a user.
In my case here are some facts:
3 months isolation with 15 minutes per week access to my son and his gf for one person; 3 court appearances, one hour probation visit per week for two years, one hour drug councillor visit per week for two years, bail/bond appearances at a police station every week, drug councillor, probation officer or police officer can call at any time (you must answer), at least four visits from each of probation officer and drug councillor to your home to interview you (one hour each time) probing deep into your life as to how good a parent you have been. To some it may not sound like much but every time the police, drug councillor or probation officer called I feared they would deliver some awful news like he missed a bail or probation meeting (or worse) – you do live on the wire when this is happening.
If the OP thinks this cannot affect their relationship well all the above happened to my sons gf and she did not take any drugs – so even though you don’t take drugs you suddenly become so involved when the police knock at your door. If you think it wont affect me – the court, police, probation officer, drug councillor all decide the appointment times and your three months in the holding camp – all this could affect your employability – Don’t for one moment think you will not be involved – you are involved once your partner is caught – and even if you dump him and try to move on how do you explain to your new partner that you need to see a probation officer, drug councillor etc or do you not tell them and live a lie to protect a past that had nothing to do with you.
I have been shaken and my life totally changed by all this, my sons gf is not the same person anymore and finds it hard to trust people or hold down a job – as for my son – well he found it easiest of everyone to move on – he is clean (I think) and has put it behind him – but I did not know then and I don’t know now (for sure) so I may one day relive this all over again.
My story is simple as it did not involve any rehabilitation or overdose situations (thankfully) but for three years it messed up my life and my family’s life – all people who did not know and did nothing with drugs but somehow became involved in my sons indiscretions and it messed up his gf’s life in a different way and all because she shared a flat with him.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
bastille, I think its extremely sad what you went through. But you seem to have entirely ignored by prior to post to you, which I had hoped might have given you some comfort and/or caused you to reflect on your attitude towards your son.
Again, do you not realise that what he did not is wrong, but rather its your attitude that is at fault?
The same shame/concern etc you feel, exists for example in an Islamic society where an unmarried girl is caught holding another mans hand. Or, for example in many societies, where a parent discovers his child is a homosexual. Do you not realise that the problem is with you, and the attidude of society? Him being sent to a "rehabilitation center" is much what some misguided religious parents do by sending a homosexual son to a "sexuality re-education classes", which almost inevitably screws kids up even more, by labeling them as "bad", "wrong", or "criminals".
Please read my prior post, and take some time to reflect on it, as it really might make you revisit the appropriateness and the fairness of the guilt you have likely placed on your son.
I did not realise he stole money from - although that to me is a seperate issue, and one which many parents need to deal with their kids. The irony is that if you had a more open relationship with him, the need for him to deceive you would lessen, which is why I always encourage parents to have open disucssions with kids, rather that isolate them with authoratarian rules.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Peds - I honestly can't understand your questions. Can anyone else here understand what Peds is asking?
I've already tried to answer your questions as best I can (please read my prior posts).
Regarding your last comment "I'd still really long for the day to read in the news that some person would reason out with the authorities about pro-choice to use drugs. that would be a blast. lolz!!!:
This is actually almost always a point that is argued in court by a defendant of a drug using charge. Its further a commonly applied rationale for please to simply give warnings/cautions and or ignore personal usage. And finally, its a key driver behind the legislative changes currently underway in the US with regard to marijuana.
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Remmy,
I read your earlier post and I have reflected on what you said BUT my son and his gf had a very open relationship with me and I do not feel any guilt about what he has done. He is 24 and has the right to choose whatever he wants to do. He brought the matter to my home, the police arrived at my door and suddenly from something that is not my business I am thrown into a life that was very difficult for five people for three years – his actions broke my trust and his actions put pressure on my family and our relationship with him and had nothing to do with me.
From my two posts, where do I even suggest I am authoritarian, where do I suggest my relationship is not open, and where do you get the idea I feel shame. I went through the process with both of them to help make sure they did not go to prison (that was the alternative) and to see that if either makes any one of life’s choices without consulting me then I don’t want to become a victim of the tsunami that follows and they must face the consequences of what they do – even if they think they are right.
I have not labelled him or her and I am still 100% behind them both when many others may have turned their backs and with all due respect I feel it is you that is misguided and the beholder of attitudes that do not reflect the modern world.
The whole point of my post is not the rights and wrongs of drugs it is simply this – if you want to do drugs or do something else then beware that your selfishness can bring huge unplanned life changes to others – that affect them greatly. I stood by my son and his gf throughout the whole three years and am still by him – can I trust him – no – that will take time and we both need to, and are, working on that. I am scared, and I think this comes through very strongly, that I do not want the police knocking on my door with some news that would shatter my heart not only my trust. However you look at it his decisions and actions had a huge effect on my life and as advice for the OP – I just outline what happened to this innocent father. No guilt and no shame at all.
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@Remmy
I think Peds wanted you to answer a simple Q i.e. would you offer cocaine to your kid in the same way that you would offer birthday cake? If you truly believe them to be equivalent, and assuming it was not illegal, would you do so (obviously giving them a pep talk beforehand about the negative/positive effects of both)? I doubt you would, because you know deep down that cocaine is not equivalent. The downside consequences of cocaine usage (if they arise) are heavily skewed. That's why your stress on fundamental freedoms to use any substance (cake, chocolate, heroin, meth) doesn't hold up. Just because they all tend to create mood effects through changes to the brain does not make them equally acceptable!
In practice, I do not believe that an individual's fundamental freedom to choose negates the society's overriding duty to keep potentially addictive/harmful substances away from our children, nor does it render all substances equally harmless/harmful. All stimulants are not equal. Coffee which you continue to champion as similar to cocaine has been shown to have some preventative health benefits (and some bad effects, too). Cocaine/heroin/meths have fewer (if any) enduring benefits based on non-medical usage, and far more potentially negative side effects...
To rely solely on education as a control for responsible usage of drugs, especially when i) drugs may be misused by the criminally minded for the exploitation of the vulnerable or ii) many people cannot be relied upon to rationally or physiologically control their drug usage, or iii) drug usage becomes a cheap refuge for the underprivileged in society, seems extremely irresponsible.
Re: Bastille's experience, his son stole in order to fund his drug usage. The issues are intrinsically linked, not separate. I can hardly see how much better Bastille could have behaved. He has stood by his son despite the stealing, lying, etc. Trust is not something you can just rationalize into recovery. I think he is justified in feeling aggrieved because he was dragged into something not of his doing. The son has to take responsibility as an adult for making a lifestyle choice which he knew, under current laws, would be subject to punishment (this is outside of the discussion on right/wrong for drug usage).
A world of cheaper and more plentiful cocaine so that a minority of adults could get a cheaper and safer fix would mean placing hedonism above the protection of our children/adults. It's not a world I would like to live in and I am glad that HK maintains such tough laws on drugs. If a minority of people need to get their kicks out of using illegal drugs to satisfy their recreational whim, so be it, but let them absorb the risk of tainted product and legal punishment, rather than opening up drug availability to the HK masses.
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once addicted to drug, the same person is a completely different person, you can't recognize him, so it's tough specially for a parent. and drug addiction makes them do anything just to get another shot, so they steal. it reminds me of the zombie blood sucking deads or aliens controlling a human, it's not the same person, full stop!
remmy is full ofsh*t with all his theories, and i don't know why you continue to listen to him. drug has affected his brain, he can't think logically. finding an excuse for Bastille's son and blaming Bastille for his son's drug habbit, this is really something!
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Totally agree with rititt- Remmy is FULL of S**T. It is illegal for a reason- its dangerous. End of.
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@bastille - my sympathies to your situation, although drug use is the medium in your case, it could just as well be something else illegal. This is a good lesson for us to treasure the trust people place on us and that which we place on others.
@Remmy - I agree with a lot of what you say. In principal and applying an individual's ability of rational thought, I can't argue with you. However, I guess in real world situations it is not quite as clear cut and you can never underestimate a person's ability to just be stupid!
@xpatwilier - I think you have made quite a convincing argument and it is certainly food for thought. I may even reconsider my previous stance on this matter.
@rititt - I know you have good intentions at heart but you need to work on your delivery, all I see is gibberish.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Rittit - you are speaking nonsense. Read my prior posts - I has explained before that we are ALL users of drugs, and ALL have varying degrees of addiction to them. Yes, even you. Or are you claiming never to have used drugs (in which case I know 100% you are lying).
bastille - I think its great you are able to speak about your son here and perhaps get some insightful perspectives. Might it make you feel better to know/realize that your sone did not different to what a huge percentage of HK's bankers, finance people,lawyers, hospitality industry, tradesmen etc do every weekend. Its really almost pretty much "normal" for an expat kid to be exposed to, and to have tried and enjoyed an occasional estacy tablet, a puff on a joint, or a line of coke. To put it into perspective, I would say that of the 200 or so bankers I know as friends/colleagues etc, I would estimate 80% have used coke from time to time. Most perhaps once or twice a week. Most would have tried marijuana. Most would drink alcohol 3-4 time a week. Almost all use coffee. Most have probably taken esctacy a few times. All extremely normal.
The problem is that your son was unfortunate enough to get caught. It's really just pure bad luck he was caught rather than him having done anything "bad" and I would suggest that this is how you primarily should treat the incident when speak about it with him.
Let me ask you, have you ever broken a law that in theory could have landed you in big trouble? Perhaps gone over the speed limit in a car? Ridden a bike without a helmet? Used the services of a prostitute in a country where its forbidden? Snuck a drink of beer while underage? Employed a part time helper contrary to HK laws? Jaywalked? Bought a copyright infringing watch, or DVD? shot a gun without a license. Etc etc? The point is, these are all "crimes" which are essentially are also rather "victimless" but where the theoretical risks and laws, if applied strictly, could be quite high. So don't feel to bad about your son. He's just doing what a normal kid does, and was let down by a system that is outmoded, biassed, and bassed on biggotry and misinformation.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
expatwilier
Re - Q - would you offer cocaine to your kid in the same way that you would offer birthday cake? A – I would treat it more akin to alcohol or coffee. Ie, educate yourself first as to the pros/cons, risks/benefits etc. And yes, even with chocolate cake, I have been pretty good in educating my kids on the importance of healthy eating, and treating junkfood as a rare treat (ie, again, very akin to how I would suggest people consider drug use, or other activities that provide some pleasure but which come with some risk).
As for your, “it’s for the greater good of society” argument, its flawed, because you are imposing your own biases and misinformation on what you think is good for society. See my prior posts on this, and try to answer/justify why in other countries/societies, this argument you have made can be applied to killing homosexuals, stoning to death a woman who has kissed a man, put into a jail a person who dares to sip alcohol, jail/reeducate a person who decided to speak out in a manner critical of the Government, etc etc.
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"I has explained before that we are ALL users of drugs, and ALL have varying degrees of addiction to them. Yes, even you. Or are you claiming never to have used drugs (in which case I know 100% you are lying)": and you still continue with your bullshits?? there is no need to explain anything, drug is illegal, full stop. people don't care about the law and for some people it's even "cool" to go against the law. not me. so stop arguing that whatever we do we are all drug addicts because everything on this earth is drug and polluted and we are not pure etc... whoaw, i didn't know drug could affect so much a person ability to think logically and practically.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
longgrime - re "It is illegal for a reason- its dangerous. End of."
Are you saying all things that are illegal are so because they are dangerous? If so, you are very misguided. Please read my prior posts regarding the persecution of people throughout history based on bigottry and biases. If we suddenly made coke legal would it make it inherently any safer? Of course not. If we suddenly criminalized coffee, would it make it inherently any riskier? Of course not. Your suggestion that laws are "correct" bas based on sound reasoning are non-sensical, and indeed if this was the case, laws, and indeed human rights, would never have evolved from the time of persecution of witches etc back in the 1600's.
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hey remmy, i was once like you, when i was a hippy in the 60s. now i have responsibility in my life and try to be part of this world and contribute to the well bieng of mankind. and law is very important, otherwise it would be anarchy, which i was when i was 18, where everything has a reason and i thought of all those theories to make a better world, peace and make love, not war, remember?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rittit - please read my prior posts and try to understand them. The vast majority of drug use we engage in on a daily basis (and yes that included you) is NOT illegal.
Yes, believe it of not rittit, YOU ARE A DRUG USER. (scary as that may sound).
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I wonder what the OP is thinking about all of this. And has anyone considered that Remmy may be Phase II boyfriend (the original poster if anyone had forgotten).
Remmy, your opinions have been formed over time and they do seem a bit "different" from others on the site. Where are you from that has allowed you to form these opinions?
Secondly a very direct question - Have your ever spent more than a few hours in a drug rehabilitation clinic as a patient or in any other capacity? If so what was you opinion of the people there?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Beermoney - ha ha, no I am not the Phase II boyfriend, but I synpathize with him!
As for my opinions, this may sound arrogant, but its perhaps my study of both philosophy, psychology and law that have influenced my views. I think most people are inherently biassed and misinformed, and am happy to help them broaden their thinking.
Never spent time in a drug rehab clinic. But in general, I think anyone who is addicited to something, is so due to lack of discipline, lack of respect for themselves and their bodies, laziness, lack of foresight, and greed.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rettit - re "i was a hippy in the 60s". LOL, Now THAT that is hillarious.
I doubt you were real hippy. Did you smoke weed? Take LSD? True ex-hippies, (I and I kwow a few both in Australia and San Fran) have not changed their views one bit on drug use - "live and let live" was, and remains the mantra.
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Remmy, So based on your personnel studies, your opinion is that coke is not addictive nor is it dangerous if used responsibly? If society has an issue with you in using coke, it is society's responsibility to update it's thinking to match yours. Yes/No?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
I think coke as addictive. Probably less so that other drugs including coffee or nicoteen. Probably more so than alcohol.
If society has an issue with you in using coke, it is society's responsibility to update it's thinking to match yours. Yes.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
And just to elaborate, "society" should have no place in dictating what freedoms a person should be permitted with their own bodies (to the extent such freedoms do not infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others). (Please read my prior posts on this).
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i want to repeat here again: people like remmy are a danger to the society, naive people will listen to him and then will be tempted to try drugs. i don't think all of you should continue let him write, he is just using this platform to promote the casual usage of illegal drugs so he must be stopped and i wonder why Ed continues to allow him to express such naive, childish and harmful comments.
remmy, may i know what you are doing for a living and what is your level of education?
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remmy, you should help and advise the poor parent whose child lack concentration in his studies ("young adult" thread). maybe you should advise him to use cocaine to boost up his creativity and concentration.
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Remmy, So if society deems you you be destructive to be a part of the wider society and wants you off in a cage unless you stop being destructive, isn't that your responsibility to adjust your thinking?
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rittit, with all due respect, its probably more people with attitudes and closed minds like yours, who wish to supress free speech and discussion, that are a "danger to society" rather than me.
I suspect Ed probably values the same freedoms of speech that I do, as do most educated people.
As to what I do for a living and education level, again, with respect, these are the questions of someone who I suspect holds inherent biasses. For the record though, if it helps satisfy your curiosity, I suspect I have a significantly higher level of formal education that you do, and also most likely a more respected and fincially rewarding "living" than you do. And again, with respect, I know for sure, that the views I hold are shared by many highly educated people. But please, in any case do not focus too much on the issue of who earns more, who have a higher level of education, etc. Lets focuss on the discussion topic itself rather than side issues.
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Rititt - "you should help and advise the poor parent whose child lack concentration in his studies ("young adult" thread). maybe you should advise him to use cocaine to boost up his creativity and concentration."
Like ritalin? Prescribed by many, many doctors...
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/issues/ritalin.html
This thread is funny.
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i don't think so. as i said, i already heard your same argument when i was 18. i doubt very much you exert some responsibility in this world, you woudn't write what you write. nor you have any children nor are they sucessful, maybe to your standard they are sucessful.
now why don't you suggest cocaine to the lady who tried to find a solution for her son concentration in his studies. have courage of your opinion!
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"with all due respect, its probably more people with attitudes and closed minds like yours, who wish to suppress free speech and discussion, that are a "danger to society" rather than me": freedom of speech? ok, then why don't you in your next encounter with parents and children, tell them the benefit of drugs which are like foods and anyway everyone will die one day so why not enjoy now and be high on drugs...... freedom of speech? there are times when i really believe censorship has its purpose!!!
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ringo, i'm the natural type, hate those chemicals which kill, and so help should somewhere. specially in the USA, they find remedy in any chemical product!! and then they find problem in everything! for a slight problem, they take pills, most of the time, they don't even know the real problem! ADHD is a tough one, i wish people don't have it, but then how many really has it?? and so they take ritalin.
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Remmy wrote: "Never spent time in a drug rehab clinic. But in general, I think anyone who is addicted to something, is so due to lack of discipline, lack of respect for themselves and their bodies, laziness, lack of foresight, and greed."
@ You seem to suggest by your above statement that addiction is a purely cognitive/behavioral phenomenon, where mere willpower and rational decision making can overcome the behaviour. Cocaine has been proven to physically change the neural structure of the brain and influence the reward pathways such that the motivation for renewed drug usage can override the rational decision making process!!!
It's obvious to a layman that an individual's principles don't exist in a social vacuum. Legislation (through government representing society) should ideally be implemented for the benefit of society as a whole. That means that the pros and cons of approving legalization of drugs have to be weighed up. Luckily we have some sensible legislators who can clearly see that the benefits of widespread cocaine usage/availability (bankers having fun) is inconsequential compared to the damage it could cause (addiction, health problems).
I also abide by the philosophy of allowing people to do to themselves actions that do not harm others. However, there is in my view an overriding obligation to protect the vulnerable in society, which may directly conflict with your egocentric principles of freedom of self expression.
P.S. It's pretty patronizing to say that you are educating other forumites because you studied philosophy, psychology and law. For you to label all advocates of strict drug laws as bigots (equating them with gay-haters, etc.) because those views disagree with your own, just highlights your own bigotry and close mindedness.
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The critical factors in determining whether legislation should approve widespread introduction of currently illegal items: drugs/guns/heavy artillery, etc, would include:
1) the benefits to individuals (health, fun, etc)
2) potential harm to individual users (addiction/health problems/related criminal behaviour)
3) burden to society (extra cost involved in treatment, etc.)
4) potential impact on vulnerable members of society (children, less educated, the destitute, mis-use by criminals)
5) is the item substantially necessary for survival/medical treatment, etc.?
6) Does the prohibition of e.g. drug usage, constitute an act of debilitating oppression on the person's well-being such that the individual's quality of life is severely impaired by such prohibition?
The above is my attempt to provide a pragmatic framework. Taking that rational and sensible approach to analysing the issue at hand, I can't justify the legalization of cocaine or guns. It's not bigotry, but a rational and responsible approach applied within a social framework.
As for Remmy's continuing references to anti-gay, anti-women bigotry in certain societies, an analysis of items 1 to 6 would provide support for gays/women.
Using the same framework, a strong case could still be made for being e.g. anti-cocaine.
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this remmy reminds me of the devil trying to tempt someone to buy their soul!: this is good, try it, it's nothing. you eat food every day right, so why worry this is same nothing, it will go away no consequence, try it, life is full of discovery and if you don't why live a dull life?". Adam and Eve with the apple, remember? but for remmy, the apple is newton, not the snake.
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@Remmy- You're a plonker chap- do you really think it necessary to compare illegal drugs to legal ones? the illegal ones are illegal for a reason. Caffeine and cocaine are very different things.. it's not cool to do illegal drugs and boast about it (unless you're 15). Grow up...
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@londongrime - Marijuana was illegal and has just been legalised in a number of states in the US (of all places...)
Marijuana hasn't changed and is no more dangerous/safer now that it was a year ago. Laws can be wrong, which is why it is constantly evolving. It takes someone to challenge it to improve society otherwise we'd all be stuck with hundreds of archaic laws which would seem ridiculous now.
As a humorous example, in the city of York (england) it is apparently legal to shoot a scotsman with a bow and arrow within the ancient city walls on any day except sunday.....
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I just found this interesting article which shows the comparative damage/addictiveness of drugs.
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/28#sthash.OkEsZGa9.dpbs
Note that it's practically very hard to ban nicotine/alcohol now because of industrial lobbies. However, it is much easier to maintain bans on harmful substances that are currently illegal.
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xpatwilier, i don't know why you have to justify, compare and question the damage of drugs. there is nothing to prove, it's already proven so many times with people dying. don't fall into trap of pro-drugs people such as remmy or bawble! these people have no balls, they don't have courage of their opinion, hiding behind their computer, they can't even admit they take drug fearing prosecution. maybe it's for their intellectual stimulation to debate on drugs, meanwhile people are dying. and then they compare their freedom with nazis and jews ...... again, i want to repeat, cocaine or other drugs have impaired their ability to think logically.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rititt - Do you drink coffee? Or alcohol? Do you smoke?
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no coffee, no smoking except for cigars, no alcohol, no hard liquor only good red and white wine, specially bordeaux, not even overpriced burgundy.
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only cuban cigars: cohiba, hoyo, R&J, montecristo
only bordeaux: vieux chateau certan, clinet, trotanoy, fleur petrus, pontet canet, montrose, saint pierre, malescot, brane cantenac, and sometimes 1st growth but again overpriced.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
OK, great. We are making some progress with you I think.
You do realize that wine contains alcohol, right? And that drinking was (and still is) considered a prohibited drug in various countries countries, right?)
Ans you do realize that cigars contains nicotiene, among other many toxic and harmful substances, right (which by the way, in ALL cases, cause some degree of harm to other people who are exposed to such smoke?)
Do you drink tea?
Now after you have answered these, let me ask you another question. If cigars/wine were suddenly criminalized, to the same extent as say, marijuana is, would you still take such drugs? And would you suddenly consider these drugs you chose to enjoy now as evil, harmful, etc as per your prior posts?
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@rititt - I'm actually not a drug user, at least not in your interpretation of drug. I occasionally smoke, occasionally drink. Never done anything stronger than marijuana and haven't done that in about 15 years.
I'm not pro-drugs, I don't even approve of taking drugs to a certain extent. I'm pro-choice.
Here's a quote for you:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Remmy,
Did you answer my question and I missed the answer or did you not answer?
(Remmy, So if society deems you you to be too destructive to be a part of the wider society and wants you off in a cage, unless you stop being destructive, isn't that your responsibility to adjust your thinking?)
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Bearmoney - you mean like Jews were considered during the time of Nazi Germany? Or blacks in South Africa during apartheid? Or homosexuals in Russia? Or people who want to exercise freedom of speech in China...? Or hippies who like so sit around peacefully smoking pot?
The answer of course is that "society" to use your term, should consider the logic, fairness, and basis for its discrimination, and not that the target of such bias should be forced to adjust.
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bawble, no problem with pro-choice but cannot promote drug openly, it's a diservice to the society, naive and young people will believe drugs are ok. words must have meaning so pro-choice but chose your words carefully when dealing with serious and grave subject where life is at stake.
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remmy, we're not in school here, it's real life where people die and also the world is not perfect, we try our best to provide an environment where all the people could live in peace and harmony and for sure, drugs are not something which could bring peace and harmony. all it can bring is destruction and life taking.
you could be hit by a bus or striken by lighting etc... anything in the air is not pure, there is pollution, even our body learn to accept the billions of bacteria etc... you can go on and on, but you need to draw a line somewhere and when a product is harmful, we must limit its usage.
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and when it is harmful, you must be careful in your choice of words so that there will be no doubt as to the effects of drugs and not to promote the casual usage of drugs as if it's a everyday thing like foods. then this is a diservice to the society and must be banned.
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could you come also with pro-choice for killing people? why don't you give some good argument since you are so good in it so what are you thoughts on killing/murduring people? maybe you are exicted in trying to kill someone for fun? after all, drugs kill!
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Pro-choice is about what you do to yourself, not other people. Murder clearly falls into the other people category. I'm pro-choice for killing yourself for sure, by this I mean things like assisted suicide or euthanasia.
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i'm using the same line of thinking as remmy, so drugs and killing are the same.
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ok so are you going to scream on the roof that euthanasia is good and that everyone should do it and not to worry about going to jail because this is an unjust law and must be abolished? and then some kids might believe that killing is ok, and started to kill his friends?
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I do think Euthanasia laws should be abolished. Why should someone who is suffering and has zero quality of life be forced to continue living if they want to but are unable to end their own life?
If you think that by abolishing euthanasia laws means kids will start killing their friends then I think you are the one who is on drugs.
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oh you're so good! at least listen to me when i say, think and know a subject before adventuring into debating. saying that, i stop here, waste my time, two different levels and standards.
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I now have no idea what you are talking about...
We certainly are on two different levels.
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Remmy I understand your point and there is no need to bring other topics in to the conversation.
Unfortunately my understanding of society is that the wider group of people set the agenda for the greater good based on the groups wishes. If certain people don't want to be part of that, why shouldn't the group have the right to get rid of the cancer.
Based on your comment ""society" to use your term, should consider the logic, fairness, and basis for its discrimination, and not that the target of such bias should be forced to adjust"
I am under the impression that society has taken your points into consideration and has deemed drugs more important to ban that to allow. Is there anywhere on the planet that "Coke" is legal?
You seem very adamant on the subject and I wonder why you don't put your energy into having the laws changed.
Can you tell me what coke gives you, that you don't get from other legal products. I am interested to know.
I have always thought the reason pot is not legal is because the government hasn't worked out how to tax it.
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@Remmy
I hear alot about principles and I spent (too much) time setting out a social framework that allows us to rationally decide whether to permit currently illegal items. At least this framework allows me to justify with reasons why homosexuality should be permitted, why I support euthanasia, why I support a ban on cocaine, why guns should be banned, etc.
Where is your action plan? I don't see anything but idealistic preaching about how everything is a drug (give me a break) so all should be allowed. It's socially irresponsible.
@Beermoney & @Bawbie - I actually have alot of respect for your views as they actually engage in sensible dialogue based on laws affecting people in a social context.
@rittitt - though I am in favor of a drug ban, like you, I can't agree with your stance that these issues cannot be discussed, especially in a public forum.
I would support Remmy's right to his views, even though I don't find his egocentric hedonistic views in any way persuasive, pragmatic or socially responsible.
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xpatwilier, read properly what i wrote. i said debate responsibly and not promote casual usage of drugs and compare to foods and other items.
as i said, remmy see in the apple isaac newton instead of the snake, drug liberates him instead of destroying him. what sense does it make to debate with such people (would you like to deal with the devil?)
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actually just to share one interesting fact: Not too many years ago The Economist - which is one of the most respected and widely distributed magazine in the world (including Hong Kong) - published an issue discussing drugs and came to the conclusion and promoted that all drugs should be legalized.
I am not arguing one way or another but this should demonstrate that legalizing all drugs is not such an unheard of view.
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@cookie
Indeed, all legislation needs to make a case for the potential benefits vs. harm a substance/item can cause.
In US, certain firearms are legally permitted, but military firepower, i.e. machine guns, tanks, and flame throwers are not.
Likewise, I have little issue with considering the pros/cons of legalization of certain drugs depending upon their unique benefits (medicinal/health), addictiveness, dependence, withdrawal effects, reinforcement and intoxication.
It's just that in most cases the cons far outweigh the pros.
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remmy should do like this woman:
http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/09/10/canadian-woman-hides-drugs-in-fake-pregn?videoId=273730451&videoChannel=2602
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Rettit better report the following people, and publishers, and countries (see the last article here) to the HONG KONG POLICE!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/harvard-economist-jeffrey-miron-on-why-drugs-should-be-legalized-a-886289.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/radical-vision-of-legalizing-all-drugs-2013-3
http://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2012/04/19/lets-be-blunt-its-time-to-end-the-drug-war/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2013/08/legal-highs-new-zealand
To the posters who were concerned about their fiance's and son's use of a drug - Times are changing. The discussions here, and the biases and bigotry that have formed some of the people's views here will be looked back upon by many rightminded people in the nea future as being as discriminatory of the persecution of people based on race, religion, sex preference etc of the past.
Sometimes, views that seem a little radical to biggots, are over time accepted and understood. This has happened over and over, whether it has been people pushing for equal treatment of people based on race, or the right to freely believe and practice a religion, or the right to engage in a consenting sexual act with another. I think we, as a society, will look back in shame and the countless lives that have been destroyed as a result of the drug laws that exist today...
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it's another case of "if you cannot eliminate or enforce properly, better embrace it". and usually it's the intellectuals (whom Lenine said they think they are the center of the world) who preached this and normally they themselves are drug users.
don't believe all the crabs. it's like dealing with the devil: you can't resist or eliminate sins, so might as well embrace. It's not accepting and recognizing that drug is harmless, it's more to do with controling its usage (some countries even have center for drug uses so that people can go and get their free shot, thus avoiding sharing needle and transfer of HIV etc...). Like for prostitution, some suggest to legalize it and have brothels so to have a better control. BUT it doesn't mean that drug is harmless. It's the case of less evil of the two but surely it doesn't mean drug is good. Don't mix the two. Be careful here, again, you are trying to confuse the naive and innocent.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Hmmm - I see... Dealing with the devil huh?
Just out of interest, are you religious? And are your desires to impose restrictions on peoples freedoms motivated by religious beliefs?
And you think that an agreement between two people exchange sex for money should be made illegal?
Out of interest, do you feel homosexuality should be illegal?
Finally, you talk about "some countries even have center for drug use". Yes, we have these in HK too. They are called cafes (where coffee is sold), bars (where wine is sold), smokers rooms (where people can smoke cigars), and doctors clinics (where you get a huge selection uppers, downers, relaxants, anti-anxiety, stimulants, etc etc prescribed).
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Check and update your info, it's in Germany or Switzerland where there are centers for drug addicts getting free shots. No I'm not religious, I'm extremely Cartesian.
I talked about devil to illustrate same as for the apple, which I hope you understand when I said you see it as newton and not snake. This is real world. Making a new law is not that straightforward, there are do many considerations and people are not rational.
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look at Switzerland and specially Geneva, there is even a street allocated for drug users (and many people also jump into lake Leman to commit suicide!). drugs have become so uncontrolable that the government sees it more efficient (and less costly) to treat them as special case. very soon, it will be the same in the USA and that is true in any countries where drug users are treat so leniently that they have become another "minority" and therefore they seek their rights!
First we need to make it hard so that drug doesn't become a blank cheque then if it has become an epidemy then for the lesser evil option, they will legalize it.
Luckily, in Asia where drugs and its users are treated and enforced very strictly, there is no epidemy and it is still controlable.
Look at weapons, once it is legalized and become so casual, killings also start to increase. The rifle association lobbies hard to keep it legal but surely something is wrong NOW with their 2nd amendment when USA is no more a jungle but a "civilized" society, and it has become so casual that it has become impossible to control. For drugs it will be the same result.
So Remmy, you need to change your logics. Legalize doesn't mean drugs are OK, it has to do more about control and cost effectiveness, not at all your freedom of choice. Drugs are harmful, full stop, and you can't use your bullshit arguments to justify its casual usage.
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"And you think that an agreement between two people exchange sex for money should be made illegal?" Remmy, you should get more knowledge on a subject before expressing your opinion. i don't know your level of education nor standard of living nor your level of responsibility in society but it looks like your perspective of live is very naive and your recommendations are harmful in general. and your logics sucks. don't say that since there is drug in certain foods and since they are legal, drugs such as cocaine should also be legalized. you could also say that since this guy shot and kill, i too am allowed to do it (sure, you are allowed in the USA, you could kill). a 10 years old kid could make the same argument but a 10 years old kid doesn't have any experience and knowledge to govern or elaborate new legislations.
did i say prostitution is illegal? in some country, it isn't. the soliciting is illegal. also some country like Germany wants to criminalize the clients. in some state in USA and Australia, it is legal and you have brothels, because the authorities there think it's better to have brothel so they could control this industry. i mentioned prostitution to show that because it's the oldest industry in the world, no one can stop nor eliminate it, so might as well legalize it so that at least there's some control and limit effect on HIV and better treatment/working condition for women. it's the lesser evil option.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Hmm, OK so to use your rationale of prostitution being "the oldest profession" "so we might as well legalize it", you do realize that humans have used drugs since prehistoric times, don't you?:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3225729/Stone-Age-man-took-drugs-say-scientists.html
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Another article to help enlighten rettit with the hope he reconsiders some of his bigotry:
http://swilhite.weebly.com/history-of-psychoactive-drug-use.html
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
PS - in case anyone is wondering about my frequent use of the term "bigot" when referring to Rittit's views, below is a definition:
A bigot is someone who, as a result of their prejudices and biases, treats other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other behavioural characteristics and choices.
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Hey Remmy, you can believe anything you want and do anything you want, but don't blame others for the consequences. By the way, I can see you're practicing your newly learned word "bigot" very well.
If you like coffee or cocaine, ingest as must as you want. But both have their own side effects - and long term effects.
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and by the way, what do you preconize for cigarettes? it is legal and see what happens. most countries now ban cigarettes smoking inside public areas, even in bars it is banned. china which has no laws on that, has more dead than any where else. so it's the reverse, more and more countries ban cigarettes smoking. so remmy what do you have to say? how to legalize/liberate more cigarettes smokers so more will die?
and concerning your bigot accusation, you should look at yourself. now that you are a drug addicted, you consider yourself as a minority victimised by society and that is why you frequently use this word and compare to nazis, jews.
I am extremely tolerant but i have more experience on life and i know that there are times restriction is better than your pseudo freedom because your freedom contaminated dangerously the young and innocent people. and your pseudo freedom brings death.
why do you think legislators came out with laws to ban cigarettes smoking? why did they have to restrict its usage instead of leaving as it is. Look at the USA, cigarettes smoking have come down because of the right education. Do you think they were wrong to spread information and try to educate people about the bad effect of smoking? what do you have to say?
and what about condoms? like the porn actors in the USA at once said that no using condoms is their "freedom of speech" and now since 3 were HIV positive, they don't talk about "freedom of speech" anymore and ask for use of condoms! and so because you want to be pro-choice, you will scream on the roof not to use condom and let the risk of HIV spread? why spend so much money to educate people about HIV/AIDS? if you were governing a country, you would ban all the education on HIV, cigarettes because of your pro-choice? you would even ban condom?
don't accuse people whom you don't know of bigot, this is too childish. where did I write something for you to label me as a bigot? it is you who are a bigot because you don't accept my opinions which are far more rational and realistic.
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and so remmy, because stone age men took drugs, you want to perpetuate this habit and preconize and legalize drug usage? what kind of reasoning is that? as i said, only a 10 years old kid would use such argument. and so your neighbour kills someone and that in turn justifies you to kill him or others? like so many people here told you already, you can keep your drug usage and you can even kill yourself, that is your right but don't contaminate others with your free and casual usage of drugs. and cocaine is a dangerous drug.
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and look at not too long ago in HKG with their opium den. at the end, many people just wouldn't move nor do anything and life and prospertiy went down. the British use this method to weaken the chinese and also to make money out of drugs. so remmy do you agree with the opium dens and free use of opium? and do you know that it is now illegal to smoke opium not counting to open an opium den for business? why do you think they have ban them? are you now accusing the legislators to be bigots? your reasoning really sucks, you don't make sense at all. you only see you side of drug benefits for you, smoking to have fun and get high!
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
rititt - smokers, (of which you are one) inherently harm others when they smoke indoors. So its only right this be prevented. A user of cocaine (at least in oral or snortable form) does not. So, apart from a bigot, you are also a hypocrite.
As for my educating you on the use of drugs by humans throughout history, I made this point because you justified legalizing consentual paid sex acts on the basis that it was "the world's oldest profession".
Regarding use of opium, yes, as I have explained I believe it should be legal, just like "alcohol dens" and "coffee dens" currently are.
Not sure what your point about condoms and HIV is, but if you are asking me whether two people engaged in sex act people should be free to consent to do this without condoms, then my answer is yes, they should be free to do this if they wish to.
Now finally, let me ask you, did you report me to the HK police for my views on this issue? And did you also report the other academics and publications I referred you to read to the HK police? How did the police react, may I ask?
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remmy, you should act like this police chief, at least he has courage of his opinion!
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/20/us/pennsylvania-police-chief-fired/
no time for reporting you to the police. will find some time to do it and if they agree, they will trace your IP address and could identify you.
but it's clear, your reasoning sucks and you must stop comparing drug with foods.
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"rititt - smokers, (of which you are one) inherently harm others when they smoke indoors. So its only right this be prevented. A user of cocaine (at least in oral or snortable form) does not. So, apart from a bigot, you are also a hypocrite": how do you want me to argue with you with such a comment? are you for real??? i stop smoking cigarettes and when i smoke cigars it's with people who smoke cigar to have company and in an isolate open air.
hypocrite? you don't even dare to say you are a drug user and now you accuse me of hypocrite? surely your cocaine habbit has crewed your brain, you can't think straight! why don't you lobby for legal usage of cocaine? you want to meet the prosecutor and let him know your open usage of cocaine and tell him cocaine is not harmful and that you use it regularly? or you want to meet me in person and you can plead your case to the police or prosecutor?
people like you are a danger to the society, selfish and try to be liberal in the wrong way and don't recognize the danger of their thoughts.
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and i stopped cigarettes not because it bothers my neighbour but because it has affected my health when every morning i caughed when i woke up and where i saw my body desintegrated. legal opium dens, in HKG they have abolished long time ago because it was bad for the people, why you can't accept that? everybody was smoking opium in the dens and no one know how to work any more and everything went down and meanwhile some people like the british merchants were making money from death and you accept that??? you are really a danger to the society.
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Lesson of the day: rititt knows what is best for everyone and thus should be allowed to control everyone's lives. If you disagree with rititt and speak out against him you should be reported to the police and possibly placed in jail. Having your own thoughts dangers society and thus freethinkers must be contained. If the technology existed to scientifically erase ideas and thoughts from our brains then rititt would be the foremost proponent for it.
Welcome to tyranny.
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rititt stop pretending to take the moral high ground and mind your own business. You do not control people nor do you have the right to "report" anyone to the police. No need to act like a prick.
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it's to show if this guy has balls and have conviction of his opinion. i suggest you read all the posts here and it is after his accusation (again) that i'm an hypocrite. so i just let him the opportunity to present his case with me present at a police station (he even challenged me to report!) so he could prove he has the guts of his conviction and at the same time present his case that HKG should legalize cocaine and that adds should be put in newspaper so that everyone would be convinced to use drugs regualrly because everyone have the freedom of choice! right? it's so easy to preach something and hide behind a computer.
This is not taking the moral high ground, it is only a reaction after his many comments. Ans all of you should react the same, have balls to silence someone who clearly is not in his right mind. if you read carefully, he feels a victim of society who doesn't him, a drug addict who feels being part of the minority rejectted by society and he is in pursuit of his rights like an activist. this is a really serious problem, if more are like him, they might lobby the HKG government to legalize drug. This is a western influence that i don't want to see here.
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"Ans all of you should react the same, have balls to silence someone who clearly is not in his right mind."
I think that's what they are trying to do, ritittitittit.
Three days ago you said you were finished with this thread...shame your words mean nothing as we were all done with it before then.
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rititt has ruined others thread before, this is what he enjoys doing. His basic outlook on life is that he hates the Chinese, he hates Westerners and he thinks everyone should leave HK so he can live here by himself (or presumably with his villager friends). Don't believe me? Go read his posts in the "should we move to HK" thread.
While I don't fully agree 100% with everything Remmy has said in this thread, he has presented himself quite well and made a logical case. That rititt is incapable of understanding basic logic is not Remmy's fault but rititt's alone.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Nice video here for those interested in the topic.
No doubt Rettit will want to be reporting the BBC, and the UK police interviewed here to the HONG KONG POLICE :) (along with the NZ Govt and The Economistwhich he will presumably also be reporting the HONG KONG POLICE :) (see here: http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2013/08/legal-highs-new-zealand)
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look at Switzerland and specially Geneva, there is even a street allocated for drug users (and many people also jump into lake Leman to commit suicide!). drugs "have become so uncontrolable that the government sees it more efficient (and less costly) to treat them as special case.
excuse me but this argument is so flawed. you have absolutely no idea about switzerland and geneva, that is for sure
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I think you posted in the wrong thread...
I don't see cocaine on this list.
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Remmy
11 yrs ago
Lol, well having said that, his post makes about as much sense as those about devils and deamons from rettit, and people in Switzerland jumping into lakes from cookie9
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the drug and jumping in lac leman is from me.
it would be fun to meet you guys one day and see who you are to write what you wrote. funny that i was told by cookie that i don't know about geneva and switzerland? cookie, know better or at least check the internet, it's there. i don't need internet for that. geneva is flooded with drug, it's so cheap that everyone from other european countries go there to buy and use drugs, it's the transit point for drug dealers. it's not the geneva yo know from books and films. zurich also is not better, at one time in the 70s, there was even a whole district full of drug users and with HIV/AIDS. the government had to do something to limit its epidemy.
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Ed
11 yrs ago
Excellent bawble :)
I was going to pull that spam but just edited it removing the link
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Rititt probably refers to Needle Park in Zurich.
Here is a good article about it and some interesting excerpts:
http://www.thelocal.ch/20120531/3427
"At first, the authorities tried to control the heroin addicts by punishing them with severe sentences and a zero tolerance attitude. But the strength of their heroin addiction meant that, for most, the threat of legal action was hardly a deterrent.
“We soon realised law enforcement doesn’t change a thing,” Professor Uchtenhagen remembers."
“Public availability of trustworthy information, on process and outcome data, was paramount,” Uchtenhagen wrote recently in a case study on drug policy....
I would point out though that this was primarily about heroin rather than cocaine which is a completely different kettle of fish.
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This is an interesting article supporting decriminalization of Class A drugs, in UK, by a former police chief. It warrants thoughtful debate.
Also, it's very important to see whether such an action is applicable and beneficial to the unique circumstances of HK, in that it is addressing a situation in UK where drug usage is much more established and prevalent in society. The UK ex police chief is motivated by his desire to cut off source of funds to criminal organizations.
In HK, drug usage is less common (across the entire community and culture) and so it's questionable whether decriminalization would bring as many benefits...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/29/police-chiefs-warn-barton-careful-message-drugs
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MMick
11 yrs ago
Aww gawd come on. Forget this academic drug waffle, legal waffle, academic muscle flexing, hypothetical rose colored glasses dreaming.
The fact is, he's doing something that he has hidden from you, so he's obviously aware you might not like it.
He know's it's illegal (who cares if it is right or wrong, it is the law right now, deal with it) and is still doing it.
To me, they alone are two important points to consider, as they highlight traits in a character. If you can live with those, that is your choice.
No. I don't think we need to know everything about our partner, but some things are important. The fact you have brought them up means they are important to you. Lucky you found out now.
I wonder if people ever stop having the urge to go back to drugs when the going gets tough?
Move on. Protect your own ass. He's snorting his.
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you guys all discuss the bad cases -- what you never talk about are the drug successes! The world is full of doped-up people, you only hear about the bad ones.
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Ban Oreos!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2013/10/16/why-your-brain-treats-oreos-like-a-drug/
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Anthony Weiner was addicted to pulling his pants down, photographing his hooter and sending it to strangers. And his wife stuck with him. I wouldn't get all worked up over a liittle toot now and then.
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What a gossips around !
Since you guys are in relation then why not giving him a chance ? support, hope and courage to quit ? let him rot unless you to not have any feelings.
Bare in mind, we just can not handle drugs, there's no sometime.....and it is not about caffeine. It is about cocaine, hard drugs similar to heroine, crack, ice etc.
Once an addict always an addict....it does not applies to everyone. I am not saying i am the best but i am also a prove that one could stop. Depends how really your fiance determined to stop and embrace the relation. There's always HELP ! is that so hard to seek some professional help for assume educated person like you ? well i could share some drug treatment service information as i am stationed in NGO.
All the best !
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cok...beer...harder liquor....excessive sex....whatever, its self medication. But his choice is destructive and he knows it. Can he stop? Thats not the point is it....that we all know its addictive and he takes is with that in mind....sounds weak...not the cok...the man..Stress?....yeah...if thats his best way to deal with it...he's an idiot...and he will take you down with him.... You can stick with him or try to help him. Or (I suggest ADD ANOTHER 12 MONTHS TO THE ENGUAGEMENT)...you need the buffer time to see if this is your White Knight...or White Powder Knight...
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Facts:
1. There are people who use drugs and people who don't
2. You don't want to be in the former category
3. Your fiancé does
4. There's a third party in your relationship.
Opinion
1. Leave now. You have had a lucky escape. I know at least one HK woman who's buried her banker fiancé after a cocaine overdose.
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Don't listen to the last poster! What a dumb suggestion, yeah, oh look, someone is at the bottom of the well calling for help, oh, i know what, jump down there and hang out with him! *SMH*
Don't do coke, I have known many a mate and colleague to go down that garden path and have their lives completely ruined. At best all that happened is that they never saved a dime while working a damned good, well paying job.
Just...don't do it. I would say dump the fool.
My sister was engaged to a cokehead for 2 years, he too said he took the coke to "relax" (some women will believe anything!) Well, by the time she wised up enough to dump his hoovering ass, he had stolen money from her bank account to help fund his habit, was calling her a fat bi*ch and getting violent. He was a nice guy when they first met...but yes, that is just one real life example of how coke aint just a sip of green tea, people!
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