Posted by
Ed
15 yrs ago
I knew having a child would force me to examine my life, but I didn't expect to have to start with my penis. When my wife and I found out we were having a boy, everyone asked if we were going to circumcise him. All I knew was that circumcision is something the U.S. does and Europe doesn't and is therefore awesome. Our penises are clean and sleek and new like Frank Gehry skyscrapers, while theirs are crumbling, ancient edifices inhabited by fat old men in hats.
But when I thought about it, there was something disturbing about the fact that someone had chopped off part of my penis — a part that not only had nerve endings and a protective function but also could have made me look bigger. When I presented these arguments to my lovely wife Cassandra, she told me to shut up. Her argument was largely based on aesthetics and involved a lot of detailed talk about the surprising number of men she had dated. It's hard to win a debate when you're busy covering your ears and singing to yourself. (Read about Joel Stein's quest to name his baby.)
I argued that our son would not feel embarrassed either way, since compared with American babies in the 1960s, when 90% got snipped, about half of newborns are now deforeskinned — and only about 30% of California infants. I went on Facebook to ask if being made fun of in the locker room was apocryphal. What I learned is that even Facebook users disapprove of making parental decisions on Facebook. And kids probably don't make fun of one another, since the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that only 69% of circumcised and 65% of uncircumcised adolescents know which one they are. Also, you don't need to be Don Rickles to respond to someone's mockery of your foreskin with a casual "Dude, why are you staring at my penis?"
All I knew was that this is clearly not a decision I should be making for another human being. What school he attends, what he eats, which bouncy seat he should bounce in — sure. Whether to alter your genitals for aesthetic reasons is a question meant for your mid-20s at Burning Man.
Still, I knew this decision was going to be made now or never, so I started asking every medical professional, woman and gay man what kind of penis they preferred, which, to my shock, got me a lot of dinner invitations. Though there seemed to be a slight aesthetic preference for not wearing a hat and a slight functional preference for keeping one on, no one had a really good argument for giving your baby plastic surgery. A pediatrician told me the sole reason he circumcised his son was so that the kid looked like him. If my son looks at my penis and the biggest difference he notices is foreskin, I have far more serious problems. Plus, if I wanted my son to look like me, I wouldn't have worked so hard to marry someone better-looking than I am.
It turns out, though, that there's an enormous group of people who would argue passionately for my son's foreskin. Francis Crick and Jonas Salk were among the Nobel laureates who signed a petition to the World Court to end circumcision. The last week of March was Genital Integrity Awareness Week, which included a march from the White House to the Capitol, which, while not far in miles, is an eternity when measured in baby foreskins. This cause is so real, it has its own ribbon. There's even a group called Jews Against Circumcision, made up almost exclusively of Jews whose parents no longer talk to them. (Read "The Great Uncircumcision Debate.")
The antisnipping crusaders argue that the ancient Greeks rejected this violent tribal custom of the Jews and Muslims; hardly anyone practices it anymore besides those groups and Americans. They argue that the Jews created it as a way either to exclude women from their club or to ritualize the sacrifice of the firstborn male. They say it was brought to the U.S. in Victorian times only as a means of reducing masturbation by limiting sensation, in what has to be the biggest failed medical experiment in history.
Cassandra would not hear any of this. She felt strongly that our son should feel Jewish and that when she bathes him, she shouldn't have to touch his penis too much. And then last month, a study from Africa showed that circumcision greatly reduces the chances of catching a sexually transmitted disease. And I had lost my argument.
So in a few weeks, I'm going to buy some bagels, call a mohel who is also a pediatric surgeon and believes in local anesthetic, and do something that I'm pretty sure is wrong. I have a horrible feeling that all of parenthood is like this.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1891744,00.html
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You will get all sorts of reasons "why and why not" from everyone you talk to, I beleive there is even a growing number of doctors that will not perform a circumcision now days.
To share my story, I was in the exact same situation about 8 years ago now, wife wanted it done because in her opinion it "looks nicer" so on and so forth, I was dead against any unnecessary surgery, I won.
Now, here is the twist, it turned out when my son was 3 or 4, cannot quite remember the exact age, his foreskin was too tight to slide back over the head of his penis, this caused ongoing bacterial problems, the Dr's solution, circumcision.
Now when I walked into that hospital room and saw my little man sitting there, legs spread, with what looked like a "crown of roses" (stiches) around the circumferance of his "willy" it literally brought tears to my eyes, as it did each morning for the next month and a half, if you understand what I am saying, until it healed. I know the pain would be no different to a new born however, I certainly cannot remember mine being done, my son certainly can his.
So, as mentioned, everyone has an opinion, this is my experience and if the choice came up again, which thankfully it will not, I would do it.
Best of luck.
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Actually a "crown of thorns" was what I meant to say.
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For me I personally would not and have not put my sons through this in the same way I would not put my daughter through having vaginal lips cut off. Foreskin is there for a reason, occasionally some kids have problems but these are a minority. Hygiene is an issue for those who do not practice it, someone on the HK forums had a wife who worked as a nurse who shared that it did not matter whether someone was circumcised or not there were hygienic people and non-hygienic people and she saw both regularly.
Sexually I personally know the nerve endings in that part and wince if I imagine not having those nerve endings anymore. Also most of that foreskin is stretched during an erection meaning that if there was no foreskin the erection would be smaller as it could not stretch further.
So I'm in the no crowd unless there are compelling medical reasons for it to be done.
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First of all, hilarious post Ed!
Apart from religious reasons, the only one argument is really hygiene. Since circumcision doesn't improve hygiene (just wash the willy), there's not a problem. The whole hygiene argument is a myth!
In other words, I would say don't do it!
"If your not circumcise your dick will have a very foul smelling bacteria laden thing that might cause infection to you or to your partner when you dont clean up before you do the thing."
A total myth. My willy doesn't have a foul smell or carry infection, thank you very much, because I clean it at least once a day (when I shower). My wife will attest to the fact that she has no problems with the smell of my willy even when I haven't had the time to do a deep clean just before.
"Hygiene is an issue for those who do not practice it, someone on the HK forums had a wife who worked as a nurse who shared that it did not matter whether someone was circumcised or not there were hygienic people and non-hygienic people and she saw both regularly."
Quite.
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Circumcision without medical justification is nothing short of genital mutilation. It's considered abhorrent to mutilate a woman's genitals, right? How is male circumcision any different?
I find the saddest aspect of modern circumcision is that many mothers want it done to their sons, despite being the first to cry foul if their husband ever asked them to get a boob-job or wax their pubic hair, let alone get circumcised themselves. The hypocrisy is sickening.
A mother does not have the right to cut off her child's eyelids, does she? So what gives her the right to remove any other functional healthy body part of her child, such as the foreskin?
Arguments for aesthetics are superficial, narrow-minded and sad. Arguments for hygiene are ridiculously unfounded, as any doctor will attest. All penises, like vaginas, and the body in general, that are washed with soap at least once a day are hygienically sound.
Circumcision of boys and girls is simply an ancient, flawed religious ploy to hinder the "evils" of masturbation and sexual pleasure. It is no more relevant today than burning heretics alive. It's a moot tradition.
Chinese have been happily copulating with their genitals fully intact without problems for more than 4,000 years. They seem to think foreskins are fine, Ed, and so do I.
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Ed
15 yrs ago
A quick note ... I didnt write the article - and I tend to agree with you on this...
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First off, Thanks Ed!!
What a hilarious post, whether it is plagiarism or not.
As for my two cents, I've been cut.
Obviously my alcoholic surgeon did not have his prerequisite two martinis before the surgery because he unintentionally bequeathed a "speed bump" on the top head of my "willy" during a palsy-like shaking fit during the procedure. Thankfully I have no conscious memory since I was a new-born, and the bump is now considered by my wife a wonderful addition.
Our readers are now clamoring towards the “don’t cut” camp in retaliation to drunkards with razor sharp scalpels. However, the “speed bump” seems to bring women incredible pleasure as it aligns with a particularly sensitive part of their anatomy.
Was my doctor a lush or a genius? The world may never know. My father, a lush himself, must have trusted the man. Make sure you do too. (My recommendation is to ask your WIFE if she trusts the man/woman.)
The first point I want to make is this: Don’t drink just before conducting surgical procedures!!! The next point is this: Your son is not going to think later in life, “Is there bacteria in there?” He won’t give a s***. But, any woman who kneels before him, or lies beside him with the intention to make love, WILL wonder…”is there bacteria in there?”
A cut willy is easy to maintain. If you don’t cut it, be sure to teach proper hygene. If you do, FIND A TRUSTWORTHY DOCTOR!
Pops used to say: “Six one, a half dozen of the other; you decide.
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Genital mutilation... and usually done in the name of religion...
However your wife mentioned her 'aesthetics'... cosmetic surgery without consent?
Let your kid decide ihomo.
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http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/
if you're doing it for religious reason, then do what your faith tells you is right.
otherwise, let your son's willy be. you can always perform it later in life if it feels right, but you cannot reverse a circumsicion.
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Having been done in my twenties, and therefore known both worlds, I would thoroughly recommend this procedure for reasons of hygiene and aerodynamics.
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schiller, did you do it for medical reasons?
I repeat that hygiene is not affected by circumcision. Total myth. It's as if people think uncircumcised people don't wash their willies or something...
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Dear axptguy38 (and others)
Bacteria thrive in warm, wet, dark places.
Yes, SOME men (as well as women) don't wash their genitalia regularly.
Do the math and you will understand why hygiene is quoted as a plus for circumcision.
Your repetition represents dogma and subjectiveness. I recommend that you reflect on the reasons you are replying to this issue so strongly and come to grips with why you feel this way. Only then will you truly understand yourself.
Remember, the main objective of this post is to help Ed make an informed, studied decision. Hygiene is an informed, intelligent concern with this issue. Ed needs facts, not opinion, in order for him and his companion to reach a decision that will best suit their family.
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"Your repetition represents dogma and subjectiveness. I recommend that you reflect on the reasons you are replying to this issue so strongly and come to grips with why you feel this way. Only then will you truly understand yourself."
"Come to grips with why"? Are you suggesting I am not facing reality or something? ;)
I feel that the original part is fine so why mess with it. I also feel that since the hygiene "issue" is easily taken care of by washing (which one should do whether circumcised or not) there is no issue with keeping the original configuration.
If someone wants to circumcise their son, that's their choice. But citing hygiene as a reason is wrong since hygiene is not a problem.
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I did seriously consider circumcision for our son at birth. Partly b/c in our family, it was done (i'm not jewish or anything but being brought up in north america in the 70's may have had something to do with it). Also i once had an uncut bf who seemed to suffer some discomfort from a too-tight foreskin everytime we had sex (not enough to actually inhibit the act).
Anyway, initially i was pro-having it done shortly after his birth (as i felt they would not suffer as much as when done when older). But my husband was quite opposed and i read somewhere that neonatal circumcision affects the chances of bfing success (which i was v keen on). So in the end, we did not circumcise him.
Now he is one-year old and I really don't want to subject him to the pain, so I am hoping that it will all turn out well and he will not need it later on.
Just my two cents, to add a female perspective to this largely male-dominated (as expected) discussion.
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We were told to circumcise our son when he was about 18months old. He had an issue with paraphimoses. we went through with it, but i am still not sure it was necessary. It seemed like the doc wanted to do it more becasue our insurance was willing to pay for it rather than because it was really essential.
He didnt suffer too much discomfort..
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selda
15 yrs ago
from a woman's perspective, i can confirm that a circumcised penis smells better, and looks cleaner.
How many men actually wash it or wipe it every time they pee? Not many.
So, a circumcised penis is low maintainance compared to an uncircumcised one.
The downside is that it loses sensitivity, because circumcised men masturbate just as often as other men, and unless they use a lot of lubricant, the increased friction causes a loss of sensitivity. Delayed ejaculation can be a problem just as serious as premature ejaculation in other men.
Circumcised men are less likely to cum during oral sex, and manual stimulation requires lots of lube and a strong grip.
I would rather teach my son good hygiene than deprive him of some sexual pleasure in the future.
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"from a woman's perspective, i can confirm that a circumcised penis smells better, and looks cleaner. "
I doubt your statistical sample is large enough to be significant. ;)
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I love the endless debates about such needless surgery. One camp says YES, its cleaner, less infections, less likely STI (sexually transmitted infections), better looking etc etc.
The other camp says NO, genital mutilation and unnecessary.
Here are the fact:
-Circumsision is an operation. It carries risks of infection, scaring and bleeding.
-It does reduce the transmission of HIV, but these studies have only been done on SubSahara African. If you use a condom, you also reduce the chance of pregnancy and all the other STI.
-Circumsision reduces nerve sensation and results in earlier ejaculation. By not circumising, you give your son the opportunity for a longer erection and a happier partner.
-Circumsision does not make the penis cleaner. That is personal hygiene, and it makes no difference
-Finally beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think uncircumsised is just as ugly as circumsised.
Conclusion: Give your son a longer erection, with no chance of bleeding/scaring/infection, and teach him about safe sex. He doesn't need the trauma of surgery at such a young age and for no perceivable benefit.
Yes I have a 7 month old son. He is uncircumsised. I live in HK. I am a nurse and I have seen a LOT of penises....and I mean a lot.
If you wife is still keen to give her son the 'chop', get her to give me a call. I will soon change her mind.
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Interesting point about HIV transmission. I assume a condom has a 1000 times more effect than circumcision so it's pretty much a moot point.
"-Finally beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think uncircumsised is just as ugly as circumsised."
Hey! Don't talk that way about my thingy! ;)
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What if your family doctor insists it's the right thing to do. Don't we as parents not listen to his advice?
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I suggest that one should wait until the child is old enough to decide
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Our beloved country always do the circumcise but is not based on age or decide but await great event for the village with special roastings of the after ring in the festival of Manaage held when the potato grow big like a tumour on a dog. In my case, they wait until I 23 and yes I scream. Agree with the one who call Sad Sack, we not do the face branding of the baby until the children is much older now as symbol for village too big for most baby except maybe cousin ogula's but for sure it hurt like a crazy bitch. So I agree - wait for the festival before do.
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"What if your family doctor insists it's the right thing to do. Don't we as parents not listen to his advice?"
Why would he say something like that if there is no medical reason?
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mayo
15 yrs ago
When circumcision is performed on adults it is performed under anaesthetic (because it hurts) but on babies it done without because of the dangers of the anaesthetic itself. If it's all abouts looks lets hope all babies are born cute noses and double eyelids.
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A doctor insisting on circumsision needs to have his/her motives questioned. No medical proceedure should be preformed without adequate rationale (use that term on your doctor 'what is your rationale for this proceedure').
If they come out with the same old lame excuses, as listed in all the previous discussion, then you can shoot him/her down in flames. If they can't provide any reasons, then report them to the medical registration board as they are engaging in dodgy practice. No doctor is a god, and as an free thinking individual, you have the right...no the obligation, to ask questions.
My final thought on this matter is; if it such a 'normal' and 'routine' procedure, why do support groups exist to help men deal with the fact they don't have a foreskin? And why are there devices to stretch the penil skin to create a new foreskin?
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As a woman I prefer a man who is circumcised. I had my son circumcised. It is no big deal! It is not like he is going to remember it later. It is more hygienic for him and for whomever he marries. My husband is not circumcised and I hate the way he looks and he has ridiculous amounts of problems when we have sex due to his foreskin. It hurts etc. I never used to get yeast infections but now every time we have sex I have a yeast infection. I know that the extra bacteria he "carries" with him is probably the reason. However, this debate is sort of like the breast feeding debate w/ women. What it comes down to is preference. We make much ado about nothing over things that really don't matter that much, except to those who have nothing better to think about. Life is fraught with much bigger issues. Whatever decision you make it will not be that life altering.
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"My husband is not circumcised and I hate the way he looks and he has ridiculous amounts of problems when we have sex due to his foreskin. It hurts etc"
You mean it hurts him? This can mean one of two things. Either there is not enough lubrication (simple to remedy) or his foreskin is not well formed and he should see a doctor. The doctor may in fact recommend circumcision. However, the vast majority of uncircumcised men have no issues. The body was designed to work that way.
"I never used to get yeast infections but now every time we have sex I have a yeast infection."
Smegma (the gunk that sometimes collects under the foreskin) does not, per se, cause yeast infections. The causes of yeast infections are on the whole unrelated to sex (as in there isn't a lot of evidence for sex as a contributory cause). Yeast infections are typically caused by changes in vaginal flora, such as using detergents to scrub the vulva, use or oral contraceptives or even psychological factors such as stress.
Why don't you ask him to wash his willy a couple of times a day, plus before sex. This should include fully retracting the foreskin and washing the area normally covered.
"It is more hygienic for him and for whomever he marries."
Myth.
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How on earth anyone believes they have the right to inflict excrutiating pain and disfigurement on a helpless infant is beyond me.
Try googling it and watch the actual prcedure itself - it is absolutely barbaric and is why most hospitals and doctors in 'modern' countries won't do it anymore.
Also, remind yourself that infection or an absent minded doctor can lead to your son losing a large part of his penis. I have read of babies that ended up with a small stump.
Thanks mum and dad!
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Ed
15 yrs ago
I haven't looked at the video... http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/video.htm
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If you're going to inflict this barbaric pain on your son, then you should be forced to watch it!
Babies choke, scream, vomit, tremble and sometimes go into shock.
It really is an assault on a helpless human being.
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rujof
15 yrs ago
In my own country, The Philippines, we do it purely by religion & by tradition.
We even have so many styles of circumcision like a haircut. We have a Geman Cut, Army Cut, Star Fruit Cut, etc.
Most of our boys do it during summer vacation when they reached the age between 8 to 12 years old. It is really a very big pressure for those boys who are not circumcised. They are the center of teasing & mockering if they will not undergo circumsicion. I was circumcised when I was an infant but I need to redo it again when I was 10 years old to show to my friends that I went to this tradition. Funny enough that when we are kids in our village, we show each other dick when we go swimming together in a river or beach. We discovered that there is a white subtance liken to a dandruff flakes that accumulate to a dick head if it is not circumcised. You can see it to a kid who are not circumcised if you full the foreskin of his dick. It accumulate at the crown part of the head dick. It has a foul smell. So I would say that it is more hygienic to be circumcised and it is not a myth.
As for medical reason, it is recommended to circumcise an infant during 8 days old. This is the day age when a infant vitamin K is at its peak.
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ovi
15 yrs ago
Hi Ed,
My two boys are circumciised when the just about 3 days so that they do not have the trauma if the have to do it due to health problem later on.
I have plenty of reasons for doing this:
1. religion
2. Clean and more hygenic
3. I found circumsiced penis is beautiful and I wont go into detail on this...
So..no, you have not done anything wrong. I have nephew who had to be circumsiced when he was 13..that will be painful. Its better do it when they are young.
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"You can see it to a kid who are not circumcised if you full the foreskin of his dick. It accumulate at the crown part of the head dick. It has a foul smell. So I would say that it is more hygienic to be circumcised and it is not a myth."
That has more to do with personal hygiene than anything else, you think cutting skin means you can carry on not washing?
"I have plenty of reasons for doing this:
1. religion
2. Clean and more hygenic
3. I found circumsiced penis is beautiful and I wont go into detail on this..."
1. I have yet to be given a religious reason for doing this - no one has ever explained why...
2. Myth - completely debunked by nurses and other health workers
3. Personal feelings have no bearing on inflicting torture on a baby
NOW - to all those who opt for circumcision - what's your feelings on female circumcision? Obviously you support that also?
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"2. Clean and more hygenic"
Oh please. That is a total myth.
"I have nephew who had to be circumsiced when he was 13..that will be painful. Its better do it when they are young."
The vast majority of uncircumcised people don't need any corrective procedures. Circumcising in case it will be needed medically is a bit like removing the appendix of a child in case of appendicitis later in life. Pretty pointless.
""You can see it to a kid who are not circumcised if you full the foreskin of his dick. It accumulate at the crown part of the head dick. It has a foul smell. So I would say that it is more hygienic to be circumcised and it is not a myth."
The reason it has a foul smell is because it is not being washed. Nothing to do with circumcision. Wash the willy for goodness sake! Mine is washed regularly and smells nice and fresh (my nose doesn't go that close but I have had reliable reports). As evildeeds says, is it thus ok not to wash a circumcised penis? Sounds pretty gross...
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mayo
15 yrs ago
a) You saw dandruff like flakes under someone elses foreskin? sounds like you boys weren't just swimming in the river!
b) it's hurts an infant just as much a 13 year only an infant can't tell you about it.
c) If a man had a Dr slice his daughter's vagina into a shape he found more appealing and then used the excuse she might have less thrush infections in the future this way we would all be up in arms but it seems many women seem to find justification to do painfully reshape their son's penis into something they like better and that's ok.
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Give me a break. It's not time consuming at all. It takes 10-15 seconds to clean an uncircumcised penis in the shower. Disgusting? Aren't people allowed to be different?.
As for teaching a kids how to do it, it cannot possibly be more trouble than teaching him how to brush his teeth.
For this, you would mutilate him?
"try to smell the uncircumcise and you know what the hell is it."
BS. Some people are just more careful with hygiene than others. The presence of a foreskin is incidental. I invite you to smell my penis. You'll see that despite being it uncircumcised there is no foul smell. Heck, let's do it at the asiaxpat office with an audience to ensure some impartiality. I have no problem dropping my pants in front of a roomful of strangers if it will stop even one circumcision. I'll even throw in a demo on proper cleaning technique.
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Women who insist on mutilating their children like this, should be forced to hold them down as they struggle to get away from the pain. One midwife told me she saw a 10 day old baby who needed 4 adults to hold him down, such did he kick his legs and arms so much. That was when she refused ever to attend such an act again.
All of these excuses are just that..excuses for some kind of mental block these people have about male penises.
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rujof
15 yrs ago
As for religious reasons, here is the excerpt from the BIBLE from the book of GENESIS Chapter 17 verses 9 to 14.
God said to Abraham, "You also must agree to keep the covenant with me, both you and your descendants in future generations. You and your descendants must all agree to circumcise every male among you. From now on you must circumcise every baby boy when he is eight days old, including slaves born in your homes and slaves bought from foreigners. This will show that there is a covenant between you and me. Each one must be circumcised, and this will be a physical sign to show that my covenant with you is everlasting. Any male who has not been circumcised will no longer be considered one of my people, because he has not kept the covenant with me."
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rujof
15 yrs ago
As for hygenic and clealiness reason:
You are considered ritually unclean if you are not circumcise.
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"As for religious reasons, here is the excerpt from the BIBLE from the book of GENESIS Chapter 17 verses 9 to 14."
So? The Bible has plenty of stuff that even devout Christians ignore. There's rape, murder, slavery and more, all condoned in various parts.
Besides which, not everyone is a Christian.
"As for hygenic and clealiness reason:
You are considered ritually unclean if you are not circumcise."
By whom?
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rujof
15 yrs ago
I would agree that it is time consuming to clean an uncircumcise willy and it really has a foul smell. For those who are not circumcise, try this in the morning when you wakeup, after you urinate first time in the morning, full the foreskin of your willy until the crown of the head comes out. Put your index finger arount it and smell your finger? If you can smell something foul, don't worry, it is normal to those who are not circumcise. For those who are circumcised, try the same way... Do you smell something?
Its easy to clean a circumcise willy. Just wash it with soap and water. Unlike the uncircumcise, you need to push the foreskin until the head comes out and clean it with soap and water. It is like hearing a rattle drums first thing in the morning when you are slowly pushing the foreskin of your willy until the head comes out... once the head comes out, you can see those small whites particles. Is that a bacteria that accumulates overnight? oh how about those foreskin that is still stuck on willy's head?
In my country, we are proud to be circumcised. We normaly do the ritual when we are in primary 5 or primary 6 summer vacation. Take note, we don't even put any pain killer or anesthetic when we do this ritual (except of course if you choose a doctor to do it for you). Nobody dies in it. It is a sign from boyhood to manhood.
Let your kid decide when he turned 10 to 12 years old.
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"Is that a bacteria that accumulates overnight?"
Not bacteria at all. The stuff, called "smegma", is residue from skin cells combined with oils that come through the skin. Smegma is clear initially. It only gets that lumpy white texture after a while. I compare it to the gunk that sits in the corner of your eyes in the morning. Just another byproduct of existence.
The function of smegma is actually to lubricate during intercourse. However humans can lubricate "on their own" if you will. More important for other mammals.
I find that it doesn't take long to clean the willy. 15 seconds or so. Pulling the foreskin back hardly adds time to the procedure. As for "foreskin that is still stuck on the head", if that is happening, go see a doctor. A healthy foreskin should retract fully without resistance.
"Let your kid decide when he turned 10 to 12 years old."
Certainly much better than deciding for him.
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I ask my husband why he was not circumcise while our son had to.......he told me that depends on the folding of the foreskin and also under the advice of the doctor.
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Indeed. Some men do need to be circumcised for medical reasons. But it's not that common.
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Ed,thanks for starting this topic.I just watched the video link of a circumcision..... I thank God I saw it before I subjected my 2 year old baby to such torture,I would've lived my life with such guilt.To all who say that it doesnt hurt your baby when they're circumcised,maybe you should be there when the doc does it,so you would share the horror of that moment.
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cd
15 yrs ago
As a female, (and mum inc. 3 boys) I prefer the un circumcised look, i.e. in its natural state.
As to all that stuff about cleanliness, and yeast infections, its all crap. Cleanliness is down to the man, and certainly takes no longer than a woman cleaning her 'bits'. aS to the yeast infections, try looking closer to home, as axpatguy says, there are many reasons to get that, diet being a main cause, I'm 44, and have only had 2 yeast infections before, both when I was pregnant and have an uncircumcised husband, so if it was down to that we'd all be getting them all the time..
And having looked at the pictures on the link above, its certainly not simple. Everyone who is thinking of getting their son done should look at that site first.
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When it's done to females in Africa due to social and religous reasons everyone would agree that it is mutilation. When it's done to little boys people seem to have all kinds of reasons to justify.
Asthetics : mummy don't worry how little Willy looks...only his girlfriend or wife would care.
There is no going back. Let the kid decide when he is old enough to understand. We say we don't force our children into careers they don't like. Would you force your daughter into getting a boob job?
On the other hand a significant portion of Americans, Jews and Muslims in the world practise it. Hey presto! We're all the same. No more wars.
This reply has gone on long enough. Maybe the Ed would like to snip the end of this reply (pun intended).
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My God.... please leave your son's foreskin well alone.... as an uncircumcised man you could offer me all the money in the world and I would not part with this part of my body... it amazes me that still 40% of boys are mutilated in this way in the so called civilized United States. It is genital mutilation, clear and simple... it is time that this barbaric practice was put to a stop. Please do not start cutting off parts which evolution has provided men... for a reason !!!!!! I even know Jewish mothers that refuse to participate in this nonsense..
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Here's something about the financial aspect of the circumcision business .....
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/the-big-business-of-male-genital-mutilation/
and here's some facts (some of which have already been pointed out)
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/circumcision-myths-facts/
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This:
Circumcision without medical justification is nothing short of genital mutilation. It's considered abhorrent to mutilate a woman's genitals, right? How is male circumcision any different?
I find the saddest aspect of modern circumcision is that many mothers want it done to their sons, despite being the first to cry foul if their husband ever asked them to get a boob-job or wax their pubic hair, let alone get circumcised themselves. The hypocrisy is sickening.
A mother does not have the right to cut off her child's eyelids, does she? So what gives her the right to remove any other functional healthy body part of her child, such as the foreskin?
Arguments for aesthetics are superficial, narrow-minded and sad. Arguments for hygiene are ridiculously unfounded, as any doctor will attest. All penises, like vaginas, and the body in general, that are washed with soap at least once a day are hygienically sound.
Circumcision of boys and girls is simply an ancient, flawed religious ploy to hinder the "evils" of masturbation and sexual pleasure. It is no more relevant today than burning heretics alive. It's a moot tradition
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;)
http://now.msn.com/now/0417-hospital-sued-circumcision.aspx
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OMG! I appreciate how old this post is but I am fuming at the ignorance and downright prejudice of Rujof! If he and all his friends have all be circumcised, how on earth can he come up with all of his 'facts'? My husband is not circumcised, neither was my first husband, trust me neither had/have any issues with hygiene or smells! My son unfortunately had to be circumcised due to a medical problem but he was anaesthetized and it was done in hospital. I would NEVER have done it for pathetic urban myth type reasons. To have it done because 'it looks better'? I find it unbelievable to cut a baby just because of the potential disgust of a shallow woman!! As for hygiene, WASH!!! Good God!! Shower everyday and wash before sex regardless! Makes me think those advocating circumcision don't bother as they don't need to! I know who I would rather be with!
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Circumcision was introduced at a time when humans were filthy and showered seldom. In this day and age only a monster would torture a child, yes I said TORTURE a child cutting off a piece of their son's body for what? How about teaching him to shower regularly instead.
Have you ever had surgery? Yes while the cutting is happening the pain can be numbed but when it wears off there is pain, there is always pain.
As for AIDS, if you are going to raise a whoremongering son then the last thing you have to worry about is him getting AIDS.
Circumcision is child abuse. It is not different than cutting off a babies finger, "because it looks better'
This is a barbaric practice and it should be made a criminal offense.
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Rabbi Avi Zarki’s tweet about carrying out circumcision on ‘smallest penis’ he had ever seen may land him in hot water, but he says he just wanted to share medical perspective ....
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/celebrity-mohel-mocks-size-of-baby-boys-penis/
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There are always pro's and con's and benefits both ways. I recall the one instance many years ago, when our neighbors (the Cohen's) a Jewish family, had their first born son. The poor child was born without eyelids, luckily the boys uncle was however a pretty talented plastic surgeon, who suggested that when the circumcision be carried out on the child, he could craft a new pair of eyelids for the boy.
The mother, Hortence (a complete pessimist) , was horrified, declaring that the boy would be cockeyed! The boys father, Jaime, (an eternal optimist) on the other hand said "but just imagine his foresight"!
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Yes. It is not much different from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation
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Ed
12 yrs ago
If new born babies could speak... and you asked them if they were ok with hacking a hunk of skin off them without any reason, and that it's gonna hurt like hell afterwards... I wonder how they'd respond to that survey.
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Can you reference a source for these comments
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Ed
12 yrs ago
So I guess we don't get anything to support your comments...
This thread is re: adult circumcision and is not pertinent to babies because they get better anesthesia and thus feel no pain... but let's have a look anyway...
After-care
After the operation your whole penis will be swollen and look very bruised. This is a normal effect of both the injected anaesthetic and the handling it necessarily receives during the operation. These will gradually reduce over the next week or two.
http://www.circinfo.com/prepandcare/pac.html
There are certainly bigger issues but child abuse surely registers as a significant global concern... right up there with child labour... pedophilia etc...
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Google Search: Does circumcision hurt a baby?
Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe: CIrcumcision does great harm to babies
Published on September 11, 2011 by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. in Moral Landscapes
Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.
Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/myths-about-circumcision-you-likely-believe
How Much Does It Hurt?
Conventional wisdom once held that because an infant’s nervous system was not yet fully developed, he wasn’t fully capable of experiencing pain. Modern research, however, suggests otherwise. http://nymag.com/health/features/60144/
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Madtown... let's say I was a dentist... and I promised you a painless root canal... what do you think I would indicate on my website?
And btw that site does not say the procedure is pain free.... I am seeing 'less pain'... 'relatively more pain'
When I searched 'Does Circumcision Hurt a Baby' I didn't cherry pick... the entire first page of results indicated that it is traumatic experience..
The only agenda I have is exposing the reality of circumcision... it is not a painless surgery... and it serves absolutely no purpose.
"When a group of activists proposed banning circumcision in San Francisco last fall, many people simply brushed them aside. Even in that liberal seaside city, it seemed implausible that thousands of people would support an effort to outlaw an ancient ritual that Jews and Muslims believe fulfills a commandment issued by God." http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/05/us/05circumcision.html
My position is that an infant should not be forced to undergo such a painful procedure because 'it's god's will'... they should be able to make their own decision when they are an adult.
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Ed
12 yrs ago
See the copy paste verbatim from the world-renowned Mayo Clinic's web site below...
Since this is all legal I don't understand why George Bush's thugs were using water boarding... why didn't they just use the threat of circumcision?
Imagine this... CIA: "I know you know where bin laden is... if you don't tell us we are going to jab this needle into your dick... then we are going to take this scalpel and hack a chunk of it off!!!"
Suspect: "Allah akbar don't do that!!!! He's in Pakistan here's the address!!!"
For newborn circumcision, your son will lie on his back with his arms and legs restrained. After the penis and surrounding area are cleansed, an anesthetic will be injected into the base of the penis or applied to the penis as a cream. A special clamp or plastic ring will be attached to the penis, and the foreskin will be removed. Afterward, the penis will be covered with an ointment, such as petroleum jelly, and wrapped loosely with gauze. The procedure generally takes about 10 minutes.
The procedure is similar for older boys and adults, but it might need to be done under general anesthesia with additional steps to prevent excessive bleeding or suture the affected area.
After the procedure
It usually takes about seven to 10 days for the penis to heal. The tip of the penis is likely to be sore at first, and the penis might look red, swollen or bruised. You might notice a yellow crust on the tip of the penis as well.
If your newborn is fussy as the anesthetic wears off, hold him gently — being careful to avoid putting pressure on the penis. If necessary, the doctor might recommend an over-the-counter pain reliever to help manage pain after the procedure.
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Ed
12 yrs ago
This is not a rant against the west (you are aware that the muslim god also requires circumcision?).
This is a clarification of the issue using logic backed up with facts.
Circumcision is a very painful surgery - the evidence is unequivocal.
My position is that it should be outlawed - just as child abuse is outlawed
And that if someone wants to undergo this procedure THEY and ONLY THEY should be making the decision.
I very much doubt anyone is going to be exposed to HIV before they are 16... so if they believe the evidence demonstrates that circumcision can help prevent HIV... and they believe their behaviour puts them at risk of contracting HIV... then they can decide if the pain is worth the gain...
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Hmmm, yep, its worth thinking/debating about. Even though an ear piercing is more superficial, as in, if you take the earring out, the hole will, over time, heal and close back up. The same cannot be said about growing a foreskin back.
I am sure anyone who has had their foreskin removed when they were infants is unlikely to know life any differently, like expecting a blue eyed person to know what it must have be like to have brown eyes, he wouldn't know any different than having blue eyes, so why bother?
99% of circumcised men are unlikely to see the point in saying they wish they hadn't been circumcised because logic would tell them that there is no turning back the clock on that decision made for them.
That said, I agree that it shouldn't be made "outlawed" and really, what should be done is that more money be put into educating parents or the next generation so that they make a bit more of an informed decision on the matter. Nowadays you are even getting fewer and fewer parents who are willing to get their sons circumcised, even though Dad has no foreskin, there is no longer that pressure to have Dad and son "the same".
I personally think that circumcision or any kind of body altering choice, should be left to the person who resides in said body, not to the people around them...the same applies for ear piercings, no baby should be pierced by parents, if a kid is 5 and says she wants her ears pierced, then by all means, let her get it, but give her the choice. (sorry, just going with the analogy given).
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Ed
12 yrs ago
Madtown... as pointed out, they don't remember having it done so they probably wouldn't regret it...
Can you pull some figures on how many adults decide to be circumcised? Expect to find almost none because you'd need to be out of your mind to endure this unless absolutely necessary:
"The procedure is similar for older boys and adults, but it might need to be done under general anesthesia with additional steps to prevent excessive bleeding or suture the affected area."
source: Mayo Clinic website
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"You act as though this procedure is being done on naive, poor, unintelligent people who can't think for themself."
Erm, aren't we talking about circumcisions being done on babies? How exactly are they thinking for themselves? Isn't it their parents who are doing the thinking? Am I missing something here?
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Hmmm, I don't know if I would agree with you. There are A LOT of forums out there that have circumcised men who wish they had been granted a choice, like "pshhh, it was there and likely had some reason for being there" you know?
Those who don't want to see circumcision being labelled barbaric or hear the well thought out arguments as to why its not really a medical necessity are probably already circumcised, that's why they deny any opposition to circumcision.
Its not some earlobe enlarging ritual performed in a tribe in Africa, oh sure, but isn't it even more offensive to think that babies in developed countries are having to be put through this "ritual" without their consent and having to grow up knowing they didn't have a choice in the matter?
I think the simple fact that many detractors are all "Whats the big deal?" is the kind of environment that allows this practice to continue. I think people really should be educated more on the matter and then make an informed decision from there. A lot of the women who sit around pro-circumcision without knowing what it must feel like to have a foreskin or not, are likely coming from the point of view of having seen it at eye level far too many times and from far too many sets of drawers, me thinks. These same women would likely be dead against female circumcision if asked for an opinion.
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Ed
12 yrs ago
German court outlaws religious circumcision
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision/article4371222/
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Not abuse at all.
Not mutilation at all.
Not comparable to female mutilation at all.
The faces of male ritual genital surgery, known as circumcision:
http://i.imgur.com/qrhjW.jpg
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Ed
12 yrs ago
"Ruling in the case of a Muslim boy taken to a doctor with bleeding after circumcision, the Cologne regional court said the practice inflicted bodily harm and should not be carried out on young boys but could be practised on older males who gave consent. The ruling applies to the city and surrounding districts."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/angela-merkel-intervenes-ban-circumcision
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I don't think many people would support back alley, unsterilised and brutish circumcisions. No more than anyone would support having an abortion using a coat hanger. I could post some gruesome pictures of abortions performed in poor countries without proper medical standards. Does that mean we should ban abortions?
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The American Academy of Pediatrics has shifted it's stance on circumcision. They have come to the conclusion that the benefits outweigh the risks.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/science/benefits-of-circumcision-outweigh-risks-pediatric-group-says.html?_r=1&ref=americanacademyofpediatrics
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Ed
12 yrs ago
So if it is beneficial in the prevention of the spread of HIV then how about we let the person make their own decision when they turn 16?
I am not aware of any babies who are engaged in unsafe sex....
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Indeed. If it's beneficial then wait until a person can make an informed choice. I'm sure if you search on the internet there are benefits to female circumcision as well. It's the same thing pure and simple.
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If the American Academy of Pediatrics states that the procedures benefits outweigh the risks, than why do you guys care? This is not some random group search on the internet...this is the American Academy of Pediatrics, a highly respected and unbiased medical organization.
Step back for a minute and think of what you are crusading against.... you are fighting against a procedure endorsed by the AAP and a procedure in which almost everyone that has had it done, is happy they did. Think about that.
just leave it alone, let parents do as they see fit, and spend time worrying about real issues that harm people.
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Why do I care? I have 3 boys and I am glad they were not born into a society that would maim them. If they wish to have to procedure when they are able to make an informed decision it's up to them. As a parent I would never maim my kids in that way.
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evildeeds, I respect your opinion and your decision not to circumcise your boys. now, when a respected organization such as the American Academy of Pediatrics comes out says the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks....its time for you to respect the decision of other parents to circumsize their boys.
with all due respect to you and ed, don't you think the american academy of pediatrics knows a bit more on this topic than you? the AAP doesn't consider it "maiming", they consider it a procedure where the benefits to outweigh the risks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you appear to be at the very height of arrogance to dismiss their findings based on nothing more than your own preconceived notions. do you consider yourself to be more informed on this topic than the AAP?
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Ed
12 yrs ago
To clarify what they said - it is ambiguous (and sounds very much like they are kowtowing to religious groups just as Germany backtracked with the Muslim and Jewish communities opposed the circumcision ban there)
"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) believes that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. We recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions."
My position is very simple on this - from what I can see if there is actually any medical benefit, it is related to the transmission of HIV through sexual contacts - so there is no benefit to performing this operation on a baby without consent.
I am not suggesting banning circumcision - I am simply suggesting that the person should be allowed to make their own decision when they turn 16.
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KEEP THE SKIN ON!!! It is natural. Don't try to fix what is not broken.
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As I said (way) above, The HIV argument seems like a complete side track anyway. Yes, circumcision may decrease transmission rates. Does this mean circumcised men are safe when having unprotected sex? Certainly not. There is somewhat decreased risk, not eliminated risk. To be protected, they have to wear a condom just ike uncircumcised men. Thus the point (circumcising for HIV protection), at least for me, is moot.
As Ed says, if a man wants to be circumcised at 16 or 18 because they want to decrease HIV transmission risk, no problem. However I would advise such a man that this is a bit like climbing a cliff with only a helmet. Sure, you'll be safer than without the helmet, but without a safety harness and belaying rope you can still easily fall to your death.
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