Powerful Profile of a Flu Vaccine Victim

Here's another example of how those "wonderful" vaccines destroy lives.


It's truly sad the nurse in this video didn't know that vitamin c & d would have easily prevented the flu she wanted to avoid. Now, her life will never be the same due to the flu shot .....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRcZZROphLM

cara>


The only thing powerful about this incompletely researched article are it's elaborate explanations at covering up the real cause of the 1918 epidemic.



1) Stanford University had nothing to do with the article. It was written by Molly Billings in June 1997 --- probably as a term paper requirement for graduation to get her BA degree in Human Biology in 1997. Google her name.



2) The article makes no reference to the role that aspirin misuse played in contributing to the high number of deaths attributed to the flu ..... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091002132346.htm#



3) An on-the-spot observer of the 1918 epidemic, Eleanora McBean, Ph.D., N.D., claims in chapter 2 of her book -- Swine Flu Expose -- that the epidemic was caused by vaccinations ...

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html .



4) Dr. McBean also claims that the non-medical hospitals were getting almost 100% successful flu treatment using natural methods as opposed to the 33% successful results of the medical men .... http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html .



5) Dr. McBean success claims are independently verified by the statistics reported here in The Official History Of Chiropractic in Texas ....

http://www.danmurphydc.com/Rhodes_Flu.pdf



Bottom line ....... stay away from drug pushing doctors and there's no need to fear the flu!

thanks for reminding me, it is time to schedule my kid's next vaccination appointment!


bottom line - I trust scientists more than shrill schills; at least when scientists are wrong, they eventually figure it out.

Z>


I hope you have better luck playing that 'Vaccine-Russian-Roulette' game than this little boy ....


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2073137/Boy-slept-19-HOURS-day-reaction-flu-jab.html

Well I pony up on vaccines whenever I get the chance. Had my flu double-shot last week. Great stuff. My kids have had them as well.

Oh, I don't consider it roulette. It's what sensible people do. Especially since, for example, non-vax kids are 35X more likely to contract measles than vax kids [you want citations? I'll give you citations: JAMA (2007) 284:3145; JAMA (1999) 282:47. Of course, if you think all docs are quacks, you also probably think that the Journal of the American Medical Association is filled with fairy tales and cotton candy.]


Go take your vitamin C supplements, p*ss out your expensive urine, make sure you get your kidneys checked regularly [oops, might have to see a doc for that] and keep your kids away from mine.

I just love it when the pro-vaccinate people open their mouths. It is soooooooooooo easy making them look foolish ....



"Oh, I don't consider it roulette."


Really? So, from all the people who have been injured, maimed, killed, and miscarriaged, from vaccinations, you don't consider vaccinations to be a roulette game? When you get that shot you don't know what it will do to you ... Fever? Seizure? Paralysis? Narcolepsy? MIs-carriage? Death? Alzheimer's? Nothing? You have absolutely no idea what will happen. It's a game of chance and you are hoping you'll luck out and be fine. Some people will be fine. Some won't. You don't know which it'll be for you.




"It's what sensible people do."


Are you serious? Injecting the following substances into the human body is something you consider sensible people doing?????? Like I said, it's soooooooo easy making you people look foolish .........



Formaldehyde (carcinogen)


Mercury (neurotoxin)


Polysorbate 80 (sterilie agent)


Anti-freeze (toxic material)


MSG - Monosodium Glutamate (neurotoxin)


Aluminium


Hydrocortisone (myelin degenerator)


Octylphenol Ethoxylate (immunotoxin)


Animal viruses


Human viruses


Foreign DNA


Latex


Aborted Human Foetal Tissue


http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html


http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/informed-vaccine.html




" ... non-vax kids are 35X more likely to contract measles than vax kids ..."


So what? Mega-dosages of vitamin c can easily prevent, or, cure measles so what's your point? That measles vax is not 100% effective so why take it? However vitamin c supplementation is 100% effective against measles. And besides, with vitamin c administration there's no need to waste the time, money, or effort seeing a doctor ---- (unless you're one of those people so lacking in common sense you need to consult a doctor just to go to the bathroom).





" ... and keep your kids away from mine."


Why is that? Your kids have been vaccinated, right? Don't those vaccines "protect" them? ;)


If the vaccines don't "protect" them, why the heck did you spend the time, money, effort, and risks getting the shots?



It is soooooooo easy making the pro-vaccinate people look foolish ---- like taking candy from a vaccine damaged baby.

This almost sounds like a war of religion! I don't think anyone has the right to influence wether it is right or wrong to get their child vaccinated. However, I personally believe that it is a matter of life or death! It maybe possible for a child to get sick from a vaccination but I think it's way more possible for them to get sick without them. You do have the right to refuse them but if you do keep your children away from any newborn babies as they are the ones at risk from those that carry the viruses because they are not vaccinated. Yes, your children can be carriers of these viruses even though it's not active in their body and they can pass it on to newborns!


If my child is diagnosed with Autism, ADHA or any other neurological problem that is claimed to be caused by vaccinations I look at it this way, I still have the child I love and wanted from the bottom of my heart and they are not six foot under.


Sorry to sound hard core but I'm sure it's even harder loosing a child, I thought I may loose mine while pregnant and that was devastating enough but to loose any of my kids now would kill me! I pray to god that only good happens to those that don't vaccinate.


When I say I personally believe I mean it. I'll respect those that choose not to but as I mentioned above keep your children away from mine until mine are fully vaccinated, lump it.


Richo1

Maybe it is worth watching this story:-(


http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/stories/8259732/getting-the-point

exyogi. In response to your list, the downside to not being vaccinated is that you catch some horrible diseases. Take you pick and enjoy....


Rubella - Can make an unborn child mentally-handicapped

Mumps - Makes men unfertile if caught after puberty

Measles - Can kill (cf Native American population)

Flu - currently killing even with the vaccine. Wiped out more people than World War I, I think.

Rabies - Horrible way to die. Best just put a gun to your head

Malaria - Ongoing

Japanese encephalitis - here today, gone tomorrow. If you survive, you could end up being deaf.

Tetanus - uncontrolld spasms, uncontrolled urination and defecation. Often fatal.


And there are so many more to choose from.

Grossman>


With the exception of malaria, every disease on your list has been medically proven to be prevented / cured by massive dosages of vitamin c. This has been know since way back in the 1940's.


http://www.doctoryourself.com/vitaminc.html


Guess I'll have to keep saying it ......... When the pro-vaccinate people open their mouths, it is sooooooooooo easy making them look foolish.

Richo1>


Whooping cough is a bacterial disease. Massive dosages of vitamin c is known to be effective again bacterial diseases. The doctors in that film should be asked one question:


Why the heck they didn't use it.

Exyogi. Please don't peddle your nonsense here. Would you be willing to contract rabies and then prove to us all that this can be cured with a massive dose of vitamin C? You could livestream it and we could all have a good laugh at you going into spasms and foaming at the mouth - assuming you're not doing so already.

The day I start worring about what cara and her pro-vaccinating followers think about me is the day I'll get a flu shot.


;)

Oh cara, can I be one of your followers, please? I've taken your advice or agreed with it so many times over several years on this forum. I should know better than to argue with the exyogi echo chamber...

exyogi. I actually know someone who didn't follow medical advice. She got breast cancer and decided against a masectomy and breast reconstruction and to follow some herbal cure she had seen on the internet. She died in great pain within the year aged around 35. Why don't you send your theories and related experiments to the magazine 'Nature' and see how far you get.

Grossman>


You obviously didn't read my previous post to you so I'm re-posting it again ......



Over 1,200 published scientific studies about vitamin c ---- Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins ---- and Grossman dismisses every one as "theories". I guess you're called GROSS-man for a reason.



http://www.tomlevymd.com/books.html



When the pro-vaccinate people open their mouths, it's sooooooooooo easy to make them look foolish.

exyogi. An internet link proves nothing. When are you going to self-experiment with rabies? Haven't heard your response to that. Should make great Christmas viewing for the family.

Actually rabies might be a bit hard to come by. Why not sit in a pool of untreated sewage for a week and then take the huge dose of vitamin C. That would be a good way of backing up your theories. Failing that, you could try consuming dog excrement.

Hmmmmmm ....... over 1,200 published scientific papers on vitamin c --- from researchers around the world --- but to Grossman, that "proves nothing"!




Is there now any doubt about my claim that ...........


When the pro-vaccinate people open their mouths, it is sooooooooo easy making them look foolish?


Are ya'll not collectively embarrassed by this?

exyogi. There may be loads of scientific papers on Vitamin C as it is, well, a vitamin. I very much doubt any of these papers prove that vitamin C is a cure for the vast majority of diseases as you ludicrously claim - and that's assuming that they are genuine papers. As for your preening bullying behaviour, is this why you are ex-yogi?

Loyd Grossman, if he ate dog poop he may actually improve his immune response, some quite fascinating studies out there about Fecal Transplants at the moment.


For those of you keeping score on the whole "are vaccines bad" bit, here's Jenny McCarthy's bodycount: http://jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html


An impressive 866 preventable infant deaths because someone doesn't understand what a vaccine does (with 0 vaccine attributable cases of Autism). There's also this site: http://whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html where more than 4,000 people relate their harmful experiences because some muppet couldn't think critically and the child wasn't vaccinated.


Anyone peddling the idea that vaccines and immunizations are not needed is either massively deluded or knows nothing about hard science (pop-science and naturopathy/homeopathy are not "hard science"). The Vaccine is probably the single most positive medical development since... well... ever, next to modern sanitation.


Not getting your kids the proper vaccines is tantamount to child abuse, and any parent who doesn't understand this probably isn't fit to be a parent.


Now, i'm not saying that Vit-C isn't good for you, it totally is. But it's no Snake Oil cure-all. It does strengthen an immune response, but will not prevent an infection (viral or bacterial) from occurring - which is why we have vaccines. What killed smallpox? Vaccines. What virtually eradicated Polio? Vaccines.


Exyogi, if you're against vaccines, why not load your kids up on Vit-C and then send them to a nice polio hotspot or one of the leper colonies i'm thinking of right now. Vit-C will be super effective, right?

here's some more science for you;


A study of 11,531 children born in 1995 in Manitoba, Canada,1 where the first vaccine was normally given to children at 2 months of age, shows the following findings:


The risk of a child developing asthma was reduced by 50% if the first Diphtheria + Pertussis + Tetanus (DPT) vaccine was delayed until 5 months of age.

The risk of developing asthma was reduced by 60% if all three doses of the DPT vaccine were delayed by at least 2 months.

Asthma prevalence rates decreased from 13.8% to 5.9% with 2 or more months of delay in giving the DPT.1


There should be no debate as to whether taking vaccinations can be somewhat harmful for you. Does it cause Autism? apparently not. but does it result in a number of other complications. yes


some stats in hong kong;


From the latest surveillance statistics in 2010:

• Only five cases of Whooping Cough (Pertussis) were reported,

• No Diphtheria,

• No Tetanus,

• No Polio was reported.



i get it, vaccinations have done amazing things and continue to for humanity


but, why do you think it is so vital to delay giving a newborn baby a polio vaccination when there isnt a sign of polio in hk??


who is the muppet?

you can just keep pounding and pounding at exyogi with you jokes about her eating poo if you want. i for one, have delayed giving my daughter shots. not cause i dont trust science, but because i dont trust the medical system that encourages muliple pointless vaccinations for newborns cause they want money.

money dominates the health care industry and vaccinations are big money. i am continuiing to educated myself on when im going to get shots for my daughter. and i do think we will get one or two soon, but im not the 'muppet' that is just going to follow and put unneccessarysh*te into my daughter


so before you start up with telling exyogi to take her kids to a polio hotspot, let me know why you should give a newborn baby in hong kong should have a DPT shot?

The causation here with your surveillance statistics is that none of these illnesses were reported due to the vaccinations. HK has a great healthcare system which vaccinates infants at birth, and consequently doesn't have incidents of these illnesses due to the vaccinations. The diseases didn't magically disappear, and in areas where vaccination rates have dropped (such as California) have seen increased rates of the illnesses you cite.


Not getting a vaccine just because a disease doesn't have a high profile in a specific area is ludicrous. In a globalized world where carriers are increasingly internationally mobile there is no better protection against a wide range of diseases than a vaccine.


Why should you give your kid a DPT vaccine? Because you have no idea if your child will come into contact with a carrier. Simple. Polio hasn't been eradicated in the way that Small Pox has, and is still very much contactable in the modern world. Tetanus can be contracted via a cut on rusty metal (and HK is pretty much a big construction site with tons, literally tons, of rusty metal all over the place).


http://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/bvkj/aktuelles1/show.php3?id=2836&nodeid=26


The article is in German, but tells the story of The 11 year old son of anti-vaccinationists who was brought to the doctor with measles. Several other children in the waiting room were infected with measles via this exposure. Two developed SSPE, a chronic progressive encephalitis that is often fatal.

thanks scrugby,

i do hear what youre saying and ill keep it in mind when we decide on what shots to do in early january

ill let you all know what we decide

play nice! cheers!

scrugby>




"There's also this site: http://whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html where more than 4,000 people relate their harmful experiences because some muppet couldn't think critically and the child wasn't vaccinated."


I have several issues with the site. Perhaps you can clarify them for me ....


The site says ..... '368,379 people killed, 306,096 injured and over $2,815,931,000 in economic damages '



Where do these figures come from? How were they arrived at? Are we to just take their word for it?


The site says ..... 'Here are 4,403 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.' But it says nothing about the 69 Nigerian children who got polio as a result of taking the polio vaccine drop! Also, the article says that it is contracted through exposure to contaminated water! Exposure how? Drinking it? Touching it? Excuse me but wouldn't sterilizing the water before exposure solve the polio problem? Duuuuuuuuuh!


Also, the term "harmed" used on the site is mis-leading. Measles, mumps, pertussis, are generally innocuous child hood disease. Yes, they can cause some serious damage. But just because something can be serious, doesn't mean that it is serious. I caught measles, mumps, chicken pox, when I was a kid. I was not "harmed" by the experience. The point I'm trying to get across is just getting measles, mumps, pertussis is not by itself "harmful". The use of the word "harmed" gives the wrong impression. Excluding the Nigerian figure, those actually "harmed" is only about 50.


On the basis of this cursory examination I can state unhesitantly your reference site is not worthy of being a reference.





"Anyone peddling the idea that vaccines and immunizations are not needed is either massively deluded or knows nothing about hard science (pop-science and naturopathy/homeopathy are not "hard science"). "


I take it that you have no objection to providing some 'hard science' to support this opinion of yours?



"The Vaccine is probably the single most positive medical development since... well... ever, next to modern sanitation."



Here are graphs of some common disease deaths before and after introduction of vaccinations. Since the diseases were 90% gone BEFORE introduction of vaccination, how can you be so impressed with vaccinations performance?


http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/index2.htm



Also, here is some 'hard science' research citations linking vaccines to disease .....


http://preventdisease.com/news/pdf/Research_Citations_Linking_Vaccines_To_Disease.pdf


This is not what I would consider a "positive" for vaccinations. But, hey, that's just me.






"Not getting your kids the proper vaccines is tantamount to child abuse, and any parent who doesn't understand this probably isn't fit to be a parent."



This is what I consider to be child abuse caused by vaccinations ........


http://www.yourlifesource.com/vaccine.htm


http://www.omsj.org/corruption/one-vaccine-story


http://www.whale.to/vaccine/vax_injured_v.html


Now let me see your examples of child abuse caused by NOT vaccinating.




"Now, i'm not saying that Vit-C isn't good for you, it totally is......... but will not prevent an infection (viral or bacterial) from occurring ... "


Again, can I see your 'hard science' supporting this statement? Here is just one example of my 'hard science' proving you are wrong ........


http://www.3news.co.nz/Living-Proof/tabid/371/articleID/171328/Default.aspx





"Exyogi, if you're against vaccines, why not load your kids up on Vit-C and then send them to a nice polio hotspot or one of the leper colonies i'm thinking of right now. Vit-C will be super effective, right?"


Yes, you are absolutely right - that's what the 'hard science' research proves. Polio and lepercy poses no problem to the person sufficiently infused with vitamin c.






"In a globalized world where carriers are increasingly internationally mobile there is no better protection against a wide range of diseases than a vaccine."


Let me see if I've got this right .......... vaccinations are not 100% effective against diseases (according to cara) ........ but ....... mega-dosages of vitamin c is 100% effective against diseases. Never-the-less, scrugby is of the opinion that 'there is no better protection against diseases than a vaccine'. Is that correct?




"The article is in German, but tells the story of The 11 year old son of anti-vaccinationists who was brought to the doctor with measles. Several other children in the waiting room were infected with measles via this exposure. Two developed SSPE, a chronic progressive encephalitis that is often fatal."


So what's your point? Both the measles and the SSPE can easily be cured with mega-dosages of vitamin c.





"Why should you give your kid a DPT vaccine? Because you have no idea if your child will come into contact with a carrier."



So according to this mind-set, the mere contacting a carrier of any disease is the determining factor for becoming sick, right? And the things to "protect" you from becoming sick, have ingredients that can make you sick (anti-freeze, mercury, formaldehyde, etc). LOL!!!!! Now how much sense does that make?


But wait ---- there's more to this crazy mind-set ......


Natural items that the body needs and thrives on --- vitamin d, vitamin c, vitamin e, clean water, etc --- has absolutely no role to play, or an insignificant role, in keeping the body well!


If this isn't a perfect example of up being down, down being up, black being white, and white being black, I don't know what is.

bawlucks>


"There should be no debate as to whether taking vaccinations can be somewhat harmful for you. Does it cause Autism? apparently not."


Your autism comment is not true. Ever heard of the Hanna Poling case? In that case the government admitted she had autism caused by vaccination. And if the government admits to ONE case of vaccine caused autism, you can bet the farm that there are more out there. It's like if you see one roach in your house you can be dang sure there are more around.


http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=E49D8A116BD9040C8C4674A2D8A91391



http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/health/stories/2008/03/06/autism_0306.html





" ...i do hear what youre saying and ill keep it in mind when we decide on what shots to do in early january

ill let you all know what we decide ...."



When you go to the doctor to get those shots give him this form and see if he'll sign it. Do let us know what he says, ok? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.thebigpitcher.org/2009/09/04/vaccinations-vaccine-form-for-doctor/

cara>



" ... he believes that massive doses of vitamin C will cure you of anything and everything ....."


You've seen my references upon which I base those beliefs, now can I please, PLEASE, see your references disputing something, ANYTHING, I've submitted? I showed you mine .... now show me yours.





" ... he believes that vaccinations are an abomination ..."


Yes.




" .... and should be stopped ..."


Noooooooooo. I could care less if you want to inject little cara with mercury, formaldehyde, anti-freeze, and other assorted "goodies". I just don't want to be FORCED to inject those things into me and mine. FORCED as in can't go to a school. FORCED as in can't get a certain job. Can you comprehend the difference?

Exyogi:


Vaccination Liberation – not exactly a non-biased peer reviewed source. All data compiled on the page you site comes from independently published books, not peer reviewed scientific journals.


This is pop science to the greatest degree. If you can find me articles supporting your outrageus statements in Nature, New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, or many other actual scientific sources, then we may have a case – but there are none. Your sources are all soft science which is by and large out of date or has been proven to be flat out wrong.


And you’re intentionally overlooking Sanitation developments at the end of the 19th century as a contributor towards decreased rates of infection, as are the authors of those books.


With regards to your hard science citation in the PDF document, the only post 1970 journal articles are with reference to a hypothetical link between Vaccinations and Diabetes (with no such articles being published after 1997) – This link has been proven to be unfounded and anecdotal at best (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12612250 – actual, current hard science, just FYI).


We know what happened in Japan when the vaccination rate for pertussis (whooping cough) dropped 70% from 1974 to 1976. In 1974 there were 393 cases of pertussis and no deaths. In 1976, there were more than 13,000 cases and 41 deaths (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/why.htm - again, hard science). No amount of Vitiman C (despite what your non-science “news” source says) is going to prevent this infection.


While vaccinations are not guaranteed to be 100% effective, they are safer than not receiving one. If everybody in a population is vaccinated, the chances of contracting the disease is near zero. But the more people in a population who do not get vaccinated, the more the whole population is jeopardized.


“After one dose of MMR, approximately 90-95% of children are protected against measles, over 95% against rubella, and 85-90% against mumps. After two doses, almost 100% of people will be protected against all three diseases. Because the diseases are so infectious, it is necessary to have very high levels of immunity in the population to control the diseases. It is only possible to do this, if children receive two doses of the vaccine. For this reason, almost all countries, recommend two doses of the vaccine. Those countries that have a high uptake of two doses of MMR vaccine have been most successful at eliminating the diseases.” (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11086376?dopt=Abstract)


The count from the Whatstheharm website comes from studies performed on populations where no vaccines were undertaken such as Nigeria, where Muslim clerics and disgruntled northern politicians banned polio vaccinations in the area, claiming that the drugs were a Western ploy to spread HIV and sterilize Muslim girls. The year-long mass boycott of the vaccine sparked a rash of new infections, and the virus jumped to about a dozen other countries — a devastating rollback for a polio eradication campaign that seemed finally on the verge of success....


...the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control revealed in early October [2007] that 69 Nigerian children had been paralyzed by polio virus since 2005 — and had contracted the illness through exposure to the live virus found in the oral vaccine. Even so, vaccine coverage has doubled countrywide in Nigeria from 35% in 2005 to a high of about 76% in 2007. Rates of new infections have dropped dramatically. Nigeria no longer has the highest number of polio cases worldwide. In 2006, Nigeria accounted for 1,125 of the 2,000 polio cases worldwide. In 2007, there were only 198 cases through October. In 2008, however, there were 788 cases, prompting a vigorous campaign to encourage vaccination.


AVM proponents note that only 1 in 200 cases of polio causes paralysis. Fever, flu-like symptoms, or no symptoms are typical in those carrying the virus. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1059060-2,00.html) We should remember, though, that only a very small percentage of those vaccinated with the polio virus will contract polio and that percentage will be much smaller than the percentage who will contract polio if there is no vaccination program. "The outbreak was caused by the live polio virus that is used in vaccines given orally — the preferred method in developing countries because it is cheaper and doesn’t require medical training to dispense (http://web.archive.org/web/20071124135421/http:/www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp?AID=14003&NS=1&CAT=18&SID=1)



No vaccination is completely without risk. Public health officials require certain vaccinations in order to prevent outbreaks of contagious diseases, whose costs would be far greater than the costs incurred by vaccinating.


The sources, if they are not scientific journals, are internationally renowned news organizations, such as Time – which is much more trustworthy a source than most (if not all) of the ones you site.

Hard science please, not pop-science scare tactic nonsense.

scrugby>


"The sources, if they are not scientific journals, are internationally renowned news organizations, such as Time – which is much more trustworthy a source than most (if not all) of the ones you site.

Hard science please, not pop-science scare tactic nonsense."



If I'm understanding you correctly ...... because the following incident show casing vitamin c prowess was not reported in scientific journals YOU consider worthy, or internationally renowned news organization YOU deem suitable, it's to be completely dismissed as some sort of hoax or pop-science ........


http://www.3news.co.nz/Living-Proof/tabid/371/articleID/171328/Default.aspx


Such arrogant ignorance!




I'll have to say it agin ..........


When the pro-vaccinate people open their mouths, it is sooooooooo easy making them look foolish.

Your case is becoming very boring exyogi and you don't seem to have too many followers thankfully:-)

Richo1>


Hey, it's interesting enough to get YOU reading it.


;)

I'm actually not reading your comments just everyone elses as they are interest!

@richo1 - ditto :)

It's unethical to be allowing this nonsense posted Ed.


Have a look at Russia in the 1990s to see what happens when this anti-vaccine talk starts being considered an acceptable opinion. Diphtheria cases went from zero in 1990, to 5000 in 1996, because of parents believing this pro-vitamin anti-vaccine nonsense, and opting out of vaccination.


4000 children are dying every day from vaccine-preventable diseases in the third world: measles, polio, tetanus, tuberculosis, diphtheria and whooping cough. Fortunately virtually none of us in Hong Kong will ever know anyone who died of any of these diseases locally, because virtually everyone is vaccinated (not because of Vitamin C!) - and the few who are not vaccinated benefit from herd immunity (better not travel to Africa or India though...).


The more of this nonsense gets posted the more scientifically uneducated parents will opt out of vaccination, and that Russia story will be repeated as the threshold fo herd immunity is lost - leading to the needless deaths of children.

Thell>


"Have a look at Russia in the 1990s to see what happens when this anti-vaccine talk starts being considered an acceptable opinion. Diphtheria cases went from zero in 1990, to 5000 in 1996, because of parents believing this pro-vitamin anti-vaccine nonsense, and opting out of vaccination."


I'll take your advice and have a look ..... please provide references so that I can do so.






"4000 children are dying every day from vaccine-preventable diseases in the third world: measles, polio, tetanus, tuberculosis, diphtheria and whooping cough."


Again, references, please? Also, do you think that inadequate nutrition and sanitation might be playing a part in those children dying? Also, I am told ---- by members of the pro-vaccination community ---- that vaccines are not 100% effective. That means your words "vaccine-preventable" are a bit mis-leading, yes?


Here is an index to a book of some case studies where vitamin c was 100% effective in curing the diseases treated. You should get your hands on it so you'll know that the fear-mongering you're pushing is totally unnecessary .....


http://injectablevitaminc.com/images/frontmatter.pdf






"The more of this nonsense gets posted the more scientifically uneducated parents will opt out of vaccination ...."


Hmmmmmm ......... you have a very strange view of reality. My guess would be that those 'scientifically uneducated parents' ---- as well as the scientifically educated ones ---- are opting out of vaccinations because of things like this .....


http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/pace-study/


and this .....


http://www.infowars.com/vaccine-deaths-and-injuries-skyrocket-as-cover-up-implodes/


and this .....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41947239/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/


and ............


well, I could go on and on but I think you get the point.






" .... leading to the needless deaths of children."


With vitamin c on hand, why should the children be dying? Did you not see the broadcast of the New Zealand man on his death bed?

@exyogi


It's not arrogance to believe that an institution such as Time is far more reputable, and reliable, than a rural TV station in New Zealand... .


"If I'm understanding you correctly ...... because the following incident show casing vitamin c prowess was not reported in scientific journals YOU consider worthy, or internationally renowned news organization YOU deem suitable, it's to be completely dismissed as some sort of hoax or pop-science ........"


No, it's because you have no science to support your claim. Period. Any of your "evidence" which has appeared in scientific sources has been proven to be unfounded upon subsequent studies (as the NCIB article illustrates). And you're under the assumption that independently published books are as valid as peer reviewed studies, they're not.


Get out of the tabloid space, find a current peer reviewed journal which supports your case and we may have a discussion on our hands. As it stands right now, you're wrong.

Well said scrugby. However, I'm sure exyogi has a whole lot more to say or will continue to repeat ones self!

scrugby>


Just like the arrogant --- and ignorant --- doctors in that documentary "knew" that vitamin c was useless, your arrogance --- and ignorance --- enables you to also "know" that vitamin c has no value.



and yet .....


that farmer in the documentary is alive today because of vitamin c.


and yet .....


Dr. Klenner's polio patients recovered 100% and are healthy with no signs of that "incurable" disease because of vitamin c.


and yet .....


None of Jahan et al (1984) tetanus patients receiving vitamin c died, while almost 75% of those not receiving it did.


and yet ......


Dr. Bastien is alive after TWICE publicly taking fatal dosages of the "death cap" mushroom -- Amanita phalloides -- due to the protocol of vitamin c along with nifuroxazide and dihydrostrep-tomycin.



and yet ...... there are many, many, documented similar examples of vitamin c prowess.





"Get out of the tabloid space, find a current peer reviewed journal which supports your case and we may have a discussion on our hands."


Thanks for the offer of a discussion but I'll pass. It obviously would be a waste of time and effort.


Your emphasis on "peer reviewed journal", at the exclusion of real world examples, reminds me of the saying ........ "Those that say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it." Yes, I think that fits you to a "t".





"As it stands right now, you're wrong."


I can see how you might think that. But that New Zealand farmer, and his family, would vehemently disagree with you. And they have the living evidence to prove it. ;)


What have you got?

It's not a waste of time and effort if you can actually find supporting evidence from a well respected peer-reviewed journal of note - i'd actually be seriously interested in reading a study which correlates with your above statements (and if the science is there then it may bear considering as a viable disease prevention tool).


If you find me a study on vitamin C as a vaccine alternative with reference to diseases like Polio and Whooping Cough, published in the last decade, from a Scientific Journal like JAMA, NEJM, NCIB, CDC, WHO, etc, which hasn't been refuted since publication, then i will seriously reconsider your statements above in light of that fact.


The problem (for you at least), is that no actual Scientific source supports these statements, so i can see how you'd be loathe to look for evidence because there is none from proper sources.


If you're against peer-reviewed journals as scientific evidence, then you don't know science and really shouldn't be making the claims you're making. Real world examples are not the scientific method, and for the claim that Vitamin C is the ultimate disease prevention tool to hold true (or be accepted as a valid perspective), it must be proven to be so in repeatable clinical experiments, where the results are published and reviewed by the scientific community - this is how basic science works.

For those following this discussion, please be aware that if you want to know the truth of vitamin c you can conduct you own little experiment of self-discovery. No need to wait for the "blessings" of JAMA, NEJM, NCIB, CDC, etc.


The next time you get that cold, or flu, or allergies, etc. try self-medicating with mega-dosages of vitamin c. Here is an excellent example of how one person went about it to cure his viral infection in 24 hours .......


http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8653



A word about fairness regarding the experiment:


Often times those wishing to discredit the prowess of vitamin c will intentionally take a too small amount. When the required success is not forthcoming they then claim that .... "the vitamin c did not work." The real problem was that they did not take enough of it to work. You cannot overdose on vitamin c so that will not be an issue.


Find out for yourself where the truth is regarding this subject.



1g = 1,000mg


4.5g = 4,500mg


6g = 6,000mg



Best wishes.

Exyogi,


You provide a source for your claims in vitaminCfoundation.org, but convienently overlook the fact that the founder, operator, and chief advocate, one Owen Fonorow, has no medical background for his extremely partisan website.


"Owen Fonorow graduated from the United States Air Force Academy. He is retired from AT&T Bell Laboratories in Naperville, Illinois and now teaches college-level computer science."


This source is not qualified to advise on personal health.


Additionally, with all the paid advertisements for sales of Vitamin C products and quack-like "self-help" texts, this site should be viewed with extreme skepticism for what it is: the online version of a 4am network TV infomercial.

scrugby>


"You provide a source for your claims in vitaminCfoundation.org, but convienently overlook the fact that the founder, operator, and chief advocate, one Owen Fonorow, has no medical background for his extremely partisan website."



I did not conviently overlook anything. My ONLY reason for referencing the site was to give an example of how much vitamin c to take for those intent on self-experimenting to solve a problem. Vitamin c researchers like Klinner, Pauling, Cathcart, and others talk about taking mega-dosages of the vitamin. The individual who posted the article, whether it was true or not, shows the amount of vitamin c he took - and how often - to resolve his issue. Those things have nothing to do with the site owner, the website contents, or anything else.


Be a little more careful in reading what I post.

Pauling


Dr Pauling is deceased - he has published nothing new on the subject of Vitamin C since his death in 1994. While he is a notable individual for winning both a Chemistry and Peace Nobel Prize, his hypotheses about high dose vitamins went considerably beyond the evidence base available and are not viewed as realistic from the scientific community.


Frederick Robert Klenner,

Deceased. Has published nothing new on Vitamin C since his death in 1984. Many of his studies are in direct conflict with more recent inquisitions on the subject - there is a reason that he is widely ignored in the medical profession.


Robert Cathcart

His seminal work "Vitamin C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, ANASCORBEMIA, and ACUTE INDUCED SCURVY" was published in the Medical Hypotheses journal, a forum for unconventional ideas without the traditional filter of scientific peer review. A journal, but not a peer reviewed one, which disqualifies his work against other, peer reviewed submissions of a higher standard.


All three of the researchers you cite had major issues with the scientific community in relation to their views on massive doses of Vitamin C. While respected Scientists like Dr Pauling have had other highly notable works, this fixation on high quantities of Vitamin C has not proven true. If it were true there would be more supporting evidence from a wider body of scientists in the present day.

Ok, ok, ok, I get it scrugby!


The god of peer-review has not blessed mega-dosage of vitamin c as a worthy protocol. I really do get it.



I'm going to send a news flash to that farmer in New Zealand who was at deaths door, was brought back to the living by mega-dosage of vitamin c, and see what he thinks about that. :)



"THOSE THAT SAY IT CAN'T BE DONE SHOULD GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THOSE WHO ARE DOING IT"

Thank you, now go out and do whatever you want to do, but don't advocate it from a scientific perspective - because there is none.


This is your personal belief, and may be the personal belief of others, but has not been proven to be effective, reliable, or helpful by any major or reputable scientific organization, and has certainly not been found to be an alternative to childhood vaccinations.


(PS no God in science, or peer review, just a bunch of incredibly knowledgeable dudes with letters like PhD and MD after their names, who've devoted their entire lives to looking at these issues).

scrugby>


" ... but has not been proven to be effective, reliable, or helpful by any major or reputable scientific organization, ..."


Maybe. I can't agree with this since I've not researched what you consider "major or reputalbe scientific organization"



" ... and has certainly not been found to be an alternative to childhood vaccinations."


Maybe not by your "major or reputable scientific organization". But other researches with MD and PHd behind their names have found it to be an alternative to childhood vaccinations.

"Maybe. I can't agree with this since I've not researched what you consider "major or reputalbe scientific organization""


Centers For Disease Control

World Health Organization

New England Journal of Medicine

American Medical Association

American Journal of Epidemiology

British Medical Journal (BMJ)

Epidemiology Journal

International Journal of Clinical and Experimental Medicine

Journal of Medicine

Journal of Pediatrics


just to name a few


"Maybe not by your "major or reputable scientific organization". But other researches have found it to be an alternative to childhood vaccinations."


As you say, not in any peer reviewed literature it hasn't. ergo, not a scientific solution.

"As you say, not in any peer reviewed literature it hasn't. ergo, not a scientific solution."


Bad logic and not true. The behavior of the medical team treating that New Zeland farmer shows how those trained by the god of peer-review came up short. And there are other examples I can give of such short commings by those who bow down to the god of peer review -- to the determinent of the patient.


Your god of peer-review is not the final word in these matters. The final word I would say is ..... is real world happeings.

Exyogi,


when will you understand that every time you harp on about some nonsense one-off example, and "other examples" without proof, i will continually show them up for what they truly are - nonsense. We'll end up with the longest thread in AsiaXpat history at this rate.


You cannot supply a single solid fact to support your claim from a credible unbiased source. You have (not scientifically founded) patient "experiences," independently published books, and a host of researchers who have been proven wrong to support your case. I have about 500 credible scientific sources, and an actual understanding of science, to support mine.


One dude in NZ doesn't give credibility to your position anymore than me seeing a flying saucer in the sky gives credibility to alien life. If it's not repeatable in a clinical setting it is not true, and as this has been a theory of the fringe and conspiracy set for a few decades now, if it were true there would be a greater body of evidence to support your claims. The opposite is in fact true, there is a greater body of evidence to support mine.


You sure you're not a representative of an organic supplement company? That would explain the fixation on getting people to use Vitamin C instead of proven vaccines... which is not only wrong, it's dangerous. I know you're not an MD, and you have no science background (hence the scorn heaped on the scientific method), so why are you convinced you're right when all the evidence says otherwise?

To be continued .... gotta run.

scruby>


Even before typing this incomplete list, I knew it would be a total waste of my time and effort. People like you, and Cara, really aren't interested in learning the truth about vitamin c. Ya'll look for reasons not to believe your own eyes when you see for yourself what vitamin c did to that farmer in New Zealand. Ya'll dismiss it as a "one-off" incident which proves absolutely nothing -- to your minds. Ya'll can't even consider it having mininal value as circumstancial proof in support of a mega-dosage vitamin c "theory". Nope, can't admitt that right?



Your arrogant dismissal of the pioneering work of researchers like Pauling and Klenner with a "they're dead", or, some irrelevancy about the "wider scientific community" only shows how petty you are in defending your position. But of course the ultimate example of your pettiness shows itself when you decree that any published papers not on your "A" list of scientific journals have absolutely no merit to them. And ....... there is the most laughable requirement of all ---- the papers must have been published within the time frame of your determination! LOL!!!!!!!! Surely you realize this attitude does not reflect favorably on you?


Anyway, against my better judgment, I went thru the motions of putting together a woefully incomplete list of published papers about vitamin c. Since many of the papers were not on your "A" list, or, within the time frame you require, you will no doubt dismiss the value of their content. Pity.



All references below were taken from the books "Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins by Thomas E. Levy, MD, JD.


and .....


Injectable Vitamin C and the Treatment of Viral and Other Diseases by Robert D. McCracken, Ph.D.



The Origin of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C

Robert Landwehr, Berkely, CA,

Journal of Opthomolecular Medecine, 1991, vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 99-103



Observations on the Dose and Administration of Ascorbic Acid When Employed Beyond the Range of a Vitamin in Human Pathology

Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P

Journal of Appplied Nutrition, 1971, Vol. 23, Nos. 3 and 4, pp. 61-87



Prevention of Rabies by Vitamin C

S. Banic, Institute of Microbiology, Medical Faculty, Yugoslavia

Nature, November 13, 1975, Vol. 258, pp. 153-154



A Cure for Mushroom Poisoning

M.D. Laing, University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg

Sa Mediese Tydsdrif, April 14, 1984, p. 590



Effect of Ascorbic Acid in the Treatment of Tetanus

K. Jahan, K. Ahmad and M.A. Ali, University of Dhaka and Infectious Disease Hospital, Mohakhali, Dhaka

Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulliten, June 1984, pp. 24-28



Vitamin C Pharmocokinetics: Implications for Oral and Intravenous Use

Sebastian J. Padayatty, MRCP, PhD: He Sun, PhD, CBS: Yaohui wang, MD: Hugh D. Rordan, MD: Stephen M. Hewitt, MD, PhD: Arie Katz, MD: Robert a. Wesley, PhD: and Mark Levine, MD: National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive Kidney Diseses, and the National Cancer Institute, and Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland

Annals of Internal Medecine, April 6, 200, Vol. 140, No. 7, pp 533-537



Vitamin C as an Erogogenic Aid

Michael J. Gonzalez, DSsc, PhD, FACN, Jorge R. Miranda, PharmD, and Hugh D. Rorodan, MD, University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Camput, San Juan, Puerto Rico

Journal of Orthomolecular Medecine, 2005, vol. 20, No. 2



Massive Doses of Vitamin C In the Treatment of Viral Diseases

Wilson L. Dalton, M.D., Shelbyville, Indiana

Journal of the Indiana State Medical Association, August 1962, pp. 1151-1154



Efficacy of Vitamin C in Counteracting Tetanus Toxin Toxicity

P.K. Dey Department of Physiology, University College of Science, Calcutta

Naturwissenschaften, p. 310



Inactivtion of Poliomyelitis Virus in Vitro by Crystalline Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)

Claus W. Jungeblut, M.D.

Department of Bacteriology, College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University, New York

Journal of Eperimental Medecine, 1935, Vol. 62, pp. 517-521



Inhibitive Effect of Vitamin C on Toxin Production by C. diphtheria

I.J. Kligler, Department of Hygiene and Bacteriology, Hebrew University, Jerusalem

Nature, August 15, 1936, Vol. 138, p. 291



Virus Pneumonia and Its Treatment with Vitamin C

Fred R. Klenner, M.D., Reidsville, North Carolina

Journal of Southern Medicine and Surgery, February 1948, Vol. 110, No. 2, pp. 36-38, 46



The Tretment of Poliomyelitis and Other Virus Diseases with Vitamin C

Fred R. Klenner, M.D., Reidsville, North Carolina

Journal of Southern Medicine and Surgery, July 1949, Vol. 111, No. 7, pp. 209-214


Vitamin C in the Prophylaxis and Therapy of Infectious Diseases

W.J. McCormic, M.D., Toronto, Canada

Archives of Pediatrics, January 1951, Vol. 68, No. 1, pp. 1-9


The Use of Vitamin C as an Antibiotic

Fred R. Klenner, M.D., Reidsville, N.C.

Journal of Applied Nutriton, 1953, Vol. 6, pp. 274-278


Recent Discoveries in the Treatment of Lockjaw with Vitamin C and Tolserol

Dr. Fred R. Klenner, Reidsville, N.C.

Tri-State Medical Journal, July 1954, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 7-11

Second in a Series of Two


Treatment of Hepatitis With Infusions of Ascorbic Acid: Comparison with Other Therapies

H. Baur and H. Staub, Basel, Swizerland

JAMA, 1954, Volume 156, No. 5, pp. 565


An 'Insidious' Virus

Fred R. Klenner, B.S., M.S., M.D., F.C.C.P., Reidsville, N.S.

Tri-State Medical Journal, June 1957, vol. 5, No. 4, pp. 10-12


The Black Widow Spider: Case History

Fred R. Klenner, B.S., M.S., M.D., F.C.C.P., Reidsville, N.C.

Tri-State Medical Journal, December 1957, Vol. 5, No. 10, pp. 15-18


Virus Encephalitis as a Sequela of the Pneumonias

Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P., Reidsville, N.C.

Tri-State Medical Journal, February 1960, Vol. 7, No. 12, pp. 7-11


Acute Hepatitis Treated with High Doses of Vitamin C: Report of a Case

H.B. Calleja, M.D., and R.H. Brooks, M.D. White Cross Hospital, Columbus, Ohio

Ohio State Medical Journal, June 1960, Vol. 56, pp. 821-823



In vitro effect of ascorbic acid on infectivity of herpesviruses and para-myxoviruses

White, L,, C. Freeman, B. Forrester, and W. chappel. (1986)

Journal of Clinical Microbiology 24(4):527-531


Treatment of Intestinal Tuberculosis With Vitamin C

J. Vitoreero, and J. Doyle (1938)

Medical Weekly


Value of Vitamin C in Treatment of Acute Infectious Diseases

F. Szirmai (1940)

Deutsches Archive fur Klinische Medizin 85:434-443



The Use of Water-Soluble Bioflavonoid-ascorbic Acid Complex in the Treatment of recurrent herpes labialis.

G. Terezhalmy, W. Bottomley, and G. Pelleu (1978)

Oral Surgery, Oral Medicine, Oral Pathology 45(1):56-62


Inactivation of Vaccinia Virus By Ascorbic Acid

G. Turner

Journal of General Microbiology 35:75-80



A Study of Blood Ascorbic Acid In Leporosy

S. Sinha, S. Gupta, A. Bajaj, P. Singh, and P. Kumar. (1984)

Internationational Journal Of Leprosy and Other Mycobaterial Diseases 52(2):159-162



Vitamin C In Experimental Tuberculosis

M. Steinbach, and S. Klein (1941)

American Review of Tuberculosis 43:403-414



Vitamin C Therapy Of Whooping Cough

T. Sessa (1940)

Riforma Medica 56:38-43



Haematological Study In Pulmonary Tuberculosis And The Effecrt Upon It Of Large Doses Of Vitamin C

M. Rudra, and S. Roy (1946)

Tubercle 27:93-94


Influence Of Vitamin C On Diphtheria Toxin

J. Pakter and B. Schick (1938)

American Journal Of Diseases of Children 55:12-26


On The Victamin C Therapy Of Pertussis

T. Otani (1936)

Klinische Wochenschrift 15(51):1884-1885


Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C) Treatment of Whooping Cough

M. Ormerod, and B. Unkauf (1937)

Canadian Medical Association Journal 37(2):134-136


Vitamin C In Treatment Of Influenza

R. Vargas Magne (1963)

El Dia Medico 35:1714-1715


Antirheumatic Acitvity Of Ascorbic Acid In Large Doses

Preliminary observations on seven patients with rheumatic fever

B. Massell, J. Warren, P. Patterson, and H. Lehmus (1950)

New England Journal of Medicine 242(16):614-615



Vitamin C Treatment of Pertussis

K. Meier, (1945)

Annales de Pediatrie (Paris) 164:50-53


Significance Of High Daily Intake of Ascorbic Acid In Preventive Medicine

F. Klenner (1974)

Journal of the International Academy of Preventive Medicine 1(1):45-69


Vitamin C Intake And Susceptibility To Pneumonia

H. Hemila (1997)

The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal 16(9):836-837


Vitamin C and Acute Respiratiory Infectons

H. Hemila and R. Douglas (1999)

The International Journal of Tuberculosis and Lund Disease 3(9):756-761


The Effectiveness of Vitamin C in Preventing and Relieving the Symptoms of Virus-Induced Respiratory Infections

H. Gorton and K. Jarvis (1999)

Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therpeutics 22(8):530-533


Vitamin C In Leprosy

D. Ferreira (1950)

Publicacoes Medicas 20:25-28


Efficacy of Vitamin C in Counteracting Tetanus Toxicity

P. Dey (1966)

Die Naturwissenschaften 53(12):310


Masive Doses of Vitamin C In The Treatment Of Viral Diseases

W. Dalton (1962)

Journal Of The Indiana State Medical Association August pp. 1151-1154


Ascorbic Acid In Very Large Doses Alone or With Vitamin D2 In Tuberculosis

J. Charpy (1948)

Bulletin de l'academie Nationale de Medecine (Paris) 132:421-423


Bass et al. (1998), in a double-blind study, found that vitamin C administration was very safe even for premature infants

Exyogi,

Awesome list, now lets take a look at some of your sources.


*Injectable Vitamin C and the Treatment of Viral and Other Diseases by Robert D. McCracken, Ph.D.*


This is an independently published book. As such, “evidence” provided cannot be held to the same standard as any evidence found in a peer reviewed journal. Independent publishing means the author is free to expand on his biases and promote a single agenda – not evidence.


*The Origin of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C

Robert Landwehr, Berkely, CA,

Journal of Opthomolecular Medecine, 1991, vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 99-103*


Unfortunately there is no “Journal of Opthomolecular Medecine.” If you were referring to the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine then again, we need to understand that this is not a good source. The Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine is not indexed by MEDLINE, a database of biomedical literature. Journals are selected for MEDLINE by the National Library of Medicine based on scope and coverage, quality of content, quality of editorial work, intended audience, quality of the layout, printing, graphics, and illustrations. – not evidence.


*Observations on the Dose and Administration of Ascorbic Acid When Employed Beyond the Range of a Vitamin in Human Pathology

Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P

Journal of Appplied Nutrition, 1971, Vol. 23, Nos. 3 and 4, pp. 61-87*


As stated above, Frederick Robert Klenner is Deceased. Has published nothing new on Vitamin C since his death in 1984. Many of his studies are in direct conflict with more recent inquisitions on the subject - there is a reason that he is widely ignored in the medical profession. Widely refuted, not science.


*Prevention of Rabies by Vitamin C

S. Banic, Institute of Microbiology, Medical Faculty, Yugoslavia

Nature, November 13, 1975, Vol. 258, pp. 153-154*


Single study on the efficacy of Vit C protecting against rabies in Guinea pigs. The effect of vitamin C against rabies in the guinea pig does not directly imply that vitamin C is beneficial for humans, further research is needed on approach and supporting studies are required. Also, 1975, there is more recent science.


* A Cure for Mushroom Poisoning

M.D. Laing, University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg

Sa Mediese Tydsdrif, April 14, 1984, p. 590*


Not a study, a letter to the editor of the journal in question with no supporting clinical evidence.


*Effect of Ascorbic Acid in the Treatment of Tetanus

K. Jahan, K. Ahmad and M.A. Ali, University of Dhaka and Infectious Disease Hospital, Mohakhali, Dhaka

Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulliten, June 1984, pp. 24-28*


Really old study. Check out this one from 2008 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18425960. Conclusions: single, non randomised, poorly reported trial of vitamin C as a treatment for tetanus suggests a considerable reduction in mortality. However, concerns about trial quality mean that this result must be interpreted with caution and vitamin C cannot be recommended as a treatment for tetanus on the basis of this evidence. New trials should be carried out to examine the effect of vitamin C on tetanus treatment.


*Vitamin C Pharmacokinetics: Implications for Oral and Intravenous Use

Sebastian J. Padayatty, MRCP, PhD: He Sun, PhD, CBS: Yaohui wang, MD: Hugh D. Rordan, MD: Stephen M. Hewitt, MD, PhD: Arie Katz, MD: Robert a. Wesley, PhD: and Mark Levine, MD: National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive Kidney Diseses, and the National Cancer Institute, and Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland

Annals of Internal Medecine, April 6, 200, Vol. 140, No. 7, pp 533-537*


“Only intravenous administration of vitamin C produces high plasma and urine concentrations that might have antitumor activity. Because efficacy of vitamin C treatment cannot be judged from clinical trials that use only oral dosing, the role of vitamin C in cancer treatment should be reevaluated. “


So according to the study authors (and more names don’t mean a better study), vitamin C might, it might, have antitumor activity, but you really can’t tell in a clinical setting so who the hell knows. More studies needed, no conclusive proof. Heck, THC has more support as an anti-cancer agent, you’re better off advocating that everyone goes out and smoked copious amounts of weed. and it would probably be safer. See:


http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/c.html


http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20000327/high-doses-of-vitamin-c-may-interfere-with-cancer-treatments


*Vitamin C as an Erogogenic Aid

Michael J. Gonzalez, DSsc, PhD, FACN, Jorge R. Miranda, PharmD, and Hugh D. Rorodan, MD, University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Camput, San Juan, Puerto Rico

Journal of Orthomolecular Medecine, 2005, vol. 20, No. 2*


We’ve done this source above, and it’s not an actual source. Fringe research not credited by the scientific community.



The rest of your Sources come from pre-2000, with many of the same issues – they’ve all either been widely refuted or the science simply doesn’t support what you’re trying to prove. You've done well in providing volume, because i simply don't have the time to go through all those, especially if they are as weak as the first few. Where are the NATURE articles? Where are the studies which haven't been refuted? where are the repeated experiments?



Vitamin C is very useful for the following:


Boosting immune system function

Maintaining healthy gums

Improving vision for those with uveitis (an inflammation of the middle part of the eye)

Treating allergy-related conditions, such as asthma, eczema, and hay fever (called allergic rhinitis)

Reducing effects of sun exposure, such as sunburn or redness (called erythema)

Alleviating dry mouth, particularly from antidepressant medications (a common side effect from these drugs)

Healing burns and wounds

Decreasing blood sugar in people with diabetes


But this does not mean that it is an acceptable alternative to vaccines. Saying so based on faulty and incomplete data is wrong. Like i've said before, you need to understand the science, and the scientific method, read all the studies and then make an informed claim. All you're doing now is presenting misguided outlandish statements as fact, which they are not.

scrugby>


I can't say I was impressed with your critique of the sources I provided. Hope you find the time to go thru what I responded with. To make things more readable, I placed a "+" in front of your original comment.




++++++++++++++++++++++++++




+*Injectable Vitamin C and the Treatment of Viral and Other Diseases by Robert D. +McCracken, Ph.D.*


+This is an independently published book. As such, “evidence” provided cannot be held to the +same standard as any evidence found in a peer reviewed journal. Independent publishing +means the author is free to expand on his biases and promote a single agenda – not +evidence.


Where do you get this info? I'd like to know where it's written that evidence provided cannot be held to the same standard. You throw out these rules -- as if they're law -- and I want to know where they come from.


Also, does an independently published book automatically mean that every single statement in that book is wrong?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+*The Origin of the 42-Year Stonewall of Vitamin C

+Robert Landwehr, Berkely, CA,

+Journal of Opthomolecular Medecine, 1991, vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 99-103*


+Unfortunately there is no “Journal of Opthomolecular Medecine.” If you were referring to the +Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine then again, we need to understand that this is not a good +source. The Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine is not indexed by MEDLINE, a database of +biomedical literature. Journals are selected for MEDLINE by the National Library of Medicine +based on scope and coverage, quality of content, quality of editorial work, intended audience, +quality of the layout, printing, graphics, and illustrations. – not evidence.



Yes, this is probably a mis-type, should probably be Orthomolecular Medecine.


" .... we need to understand that this is not a good source."


It is not a good source BECAUSE ........?


Regarding your comment about MEDLINE, I have no experience with it. However, I have read other articles about MEDLINE, unfavorable ones, that we can discuss (or rather you can enlighten me about) on another thread. In essence, MEDLINE is subject or political manipulations and that may account for what does or does not show up in it.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++



+*Observations on the Dose and Administration of Ascorbic Acid When Employed Beyond the +Range of a Vitamin in Human Pathology

+Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P

+Journal of Appplied Nutrition, 1971, Vol. 23, Nos. 3 and 4, pp. 61-87*


+As stated above, Frederick Robert Klenner is Deceased. Has published nothing new on +Vitamin C since his death in 1984. Many of his studies are in direct conflict with more recent +inquisitions on the subject - there is a reason that he is widely ignored in the medical +profession. Widely refuted, not science.


Please explain how does being deceased effect the published research of Klenner.


Please explain why, if Klenner was alive, must he publish something new.


"Many of his studies are in direct conflict with more recent inquisitions on the subject"


Examples of this please?


"There is a reason that he is widely ignored in the medical profession."


Who says Klenner is widely ignored in the medical profession? And how does being "widely ignored" effect the quality of what he published?


" Widely refuted, not science."


Please give examples of him being "widely refuted".


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+*Prevention of Rabies by Vitamin C

+S. Banic, Institute of Microbiology, Medical Faculty, Yugoslavia

+Nature, November 13, 1975, Vol. 258, pp. 153-154*


+Single study on the efficacy of Vit C protecting against rabies in Guinea pigs. The effect of +vitamin C against rabies in the guinea pig does not directly imply that vitamin C is beneficial +for humans, further research is needed on approach and supporting studies are required. +Also, 1975, there is more recent science.


"The effect of vitamin C against rabies in the guinea pig does not directly imply that vitamin C is beneficial for humans"


This is true when looking at this study by itself, in isolation. When looking at this study in conjuction with the study of rabies in monkeys, and the many studies of vitamin c effect on the many different viruses, this paints an overall encouring picture that rabies in human will respond similary to the rabies in the guinea pig and monkey -- it'll be prevented / cured if given in large enough dosage.


You do understand the issues involved with conducting rabies studies on humans, yes? Animals have to be used. And since guinea pigs, like humans, must get their vitamin c from diet they are perfect test subjects for an animal that does not product it's own vitamin c -- like humans.



"Also, 1975, there is more recent science."


May I see it?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



+* A Cure for Mushroom Poisoning

+M.D. Laing, University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg

+Sa Mediese Tydsdrif, April 14, 1984, p. 590*


+Not a study, a letter to the editor of the journal in question with no supporting clinical +evidence.


This is not true. I have a copy of the letter. It describes the treatment and case studies. It also says the the treatment has been adopted as the tretment of choice at a number of centers in France.


+++++++++++++++++++++++


+*Effect of Ascorbic Acid in the Treatment of Tetanus

+K. Jahan, K. Ahmad and M.A. Ali, University of Dhaka and Infectious Disease Hospital, +Mohakhali, Dhaka

+Bangladesh Medical Research Council Bulliten, June 1984, pp. 24-28*


+Really old study. Check out this one from 2008 +http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18425960.



"Really old study."


Does being an old study invalidate the study?



"Check out this one from 2008 +http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18425960. "


I get a "page does not exist" for the link.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+*Vitamin C Pharmacokinetics: Implications for Oral and Intravenous Use

+Sebastian J. Padayatty, MRCP, PhD: He Sun, PhD, CBS: Yaohui wang, MD: Hugh D. Rordan, +MD: Stephen M. Hewitt, MD, PhD: Arie Katz, MD: Robert a. Wesley, PhD: and Mark Levine, +MD: National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive Kidney Diseses, and the National Cancer +Institute, and Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland

+Annals of Internal Medecine, April 6, 200, Vol. 140, No. 7, pp 533-537*


+“Only intravenous administration of vitamin C produces high plasma and urine concentrations +that might have antitumor activity. Because efficacy of vitamin C treatment cannot be judged +from clinical trials that use only oral dosing, the role of vitamin C in cancer treatment should +be reevaluated. “


+So according to the study authors (and more names don’t mean a better study), vitamin C +might, it might, have antitumor activity, but you really can’t tell in a clinical setting so who the +hell knows. More studies needed, no conclusive proof. Heck, THC has more support as an +anti-cancer agent, you’re better off advocating that everyone goes out and smoked copious +amounts of weed.



You've focused on the wrong point of the study.


This research report helps explain why vitamin c administered through injection is so much more effective in treating disease than when taken orally. "Oral vitamin c," the authors say, "produces plasma concentrations that are tightly controlled" by the body, not rising more than 2 or 3 times above levels found when vitamin c rich foods are consumed. Intravenous vitamin c, by contrast, bypasses the body's control system, resulting in plasma concentrations that are as much as 70-fold above baseline. And the size of increase varies according to amount injected. CONSEQUENTLY, VITAMIN C TAKEN ORALLY CANNOT SERVE AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR INJECTED VITAMIN C WHEN TREATING DISEASE.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



+*Vitamin C as an Erogogenic Aid

+Michael J. Gonzalez, DSsc, PhD, FACN, Jorge R. Miranda, PharmD, and Hugh D. Rorodan, +MD, University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Camput, San Juan, Puerto Rico

+Journal of Orthomolecular Medecine, 2005, vol. 20, No. 2*


+"We’ve done this source above, and it’s not an actual source. Fringe research not credited by +the scientific community."



Please explain again why it's not an "actual source".


What is your defination of "fringe research"?


May I see your documentation where the scientific community has not credited it?


+++++++++++++++++++++++


"Then the rest of your Sources come from pre-2000, with many of the same issues – they’ve all either been widely refuted or the science simply doesn’t support what you’re trying to prove."


Can I see some examples of something "widely refuted"?


Can I see some examples of the science not supporting what I'm trying to prove?


Also, what's the signifigance of pre-2000 sources? Are they inferior in any way?





" .... especially if they are as weak as the first few."


If you go back and read my comments to your rebuttal, you'll find that what's weak is your critique of the sources.




"Where are the NATURE articles?"


I have no idea of the thought process that leads a researcher to publish his/her work in one journal, as opposed to another journal. Since you come across as a person intimately familar with the "scientific publishing community" perhaps you can tell me where the NATURE articles are.




"Where are the studies which haven't been refuted?"


I'm still waiting for you to provide the studies that have refuted something.




"Where are the repeated experiments?"


Again, since you probably work in the industry, perhaps you can tell me the process that determines how experiments are repeated?

exyogi. You have been proved to be a fraud.

In 2006, Psychology Today wrote: "The National Library of Medicine refuses to index the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, though it is peer-reviewed and seems to meet their criteria." (4)


MEDLINE does, however, index material from Newsweek, Consumer Reports, Reader’s Digest and Time magazines."



Mmm let's all get our medical advice from Reader's Digest as it's on Medline !!!