Posted by
OffThePeak
12 yrs ago
I am sure that nearly all of us have been hassled by Estate Agents pushing us to look at, and maybe buy, a newly launched property. I consider this thread as "pay back" for that aggressive behaviour.
Here are the reasons that you should NOT buy a new flat off plan from a show flat:
+ Chances are, it is over-priced by at least 10-20% versus comparable properties in the secondary market in the same area
+ When you buy it, it will be new, and when you sell it, it will be secondhand - So whatever premium you pay will come out of your pocket
+ Agents typically get a commission of 2-4% from the developer, versus a 1% commission on a secondhand property. Some agents will split this "bonanza" with the buyers, but most will not tell you about it
+ If you buy off plan, you cannot see what the new property, and the view, will actually look like. There are bound to be some surprises, maybe some big ones. These surprises are almost always unhappy surprises.
+ The furniture, mirrors, and lighting in a new flat are designed to deceive. Those living in the actual flat will need to decorate them differently. Think about where you will store your items. Many show flats do not even have room for a suitcase. Who can live like that?
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy looking at new show flats. Viewing show flats is a past-time of many Hong Kong residents. But buying is different, so make sure you think about my cautionary points (listed above) if and when you view a new property.
Please support our advertisers:
Here's a data point:
Today's HK Standard (pg.10):
"A 1,186 sf Three BR unit at Island Crest in Sai Ying Pun sold for HK$15.5 million, or HK$13,069 psf. The seller booked a loss of 8 percent or HK$1.32 million."
Consider: The Centaline index is now at a record high, so even if Island Crest launched on the exact high of last year, the buyer overpaid by 8-10% for the "privilege" of owning a new property.
What to do with a new property:
+ View it, but don't buy it
+ Rent it
When a new project launches, there is often a glut of new flats for rent. Consider making lowball offers, or offers wil rentfree periods, to get into a new flat. Then you will enjoy what the over-excited buyer paid for.
There are exceptions of course. Several years ago, my partner and I bought a nice new 3BR property in Tung Chung for under $3.5 Million, when the secondhand market was 3-5% higher. Apparently, Cheung Kong wanted to be sure that sales would go well, so they underpriced them. We sold a few years later for around $5 million. and captured a bigger gain than if we had bought secondhand. So it is possible to find bargains in new properties, but they are few and far between.
Please support our advertisers:
bing2
12 yrs ago
new flats are too expensive and usually they are a bait for mainlanders. mainlanders like new flats for some reason.
and dont forget agents' pressuring sales tactic. they will call 5 - 8 people to corner you to sign the S & P. so becareful! when you are not sure and feeling pressured take a step back and walk away. nothing is going to happen to you if you say no or i'll think about it.
dont let agents pressure you to buy. they have so many dirty tactics and tricks under their sleeve. if you are not sure, just take a step back and walk away!
Please support our advertisers:
I'm not sure how many readers of this thread are potential buyers. Too, each buyer thinks he knows what he's doing...
Please support our advertisers:
lasez
12 yrs ago
I should have bought a few years ago. Cannot afford anything in the market right now.
Please support our advertisers:
If I could afford a new property and I had more security, I would still buy as long as it was in Central, Mid-levels, Western or no further East than North Point.
Please support our advertisers:
A couple of problems with new properties that have not been mentioned on this thread yet:
1) The usable area in new properties is significantly lower than in old properties. This also know as the efficiency of the property. For example, in an old property, you can get efficiency rates of about 90% and in a new property as low as 70% or even lower. Sure, you will get much nicer facilities, but is it worth the trade off of 20% or more of your personal space which you pay so much for?
2) The management fees that you have to pay every month in a new property can be double or triple the amount you have to pay in an old property. For example, for a 3 bedroom unit in an old building you might have to pay around HKD2000 per month whereas for a unit of the same size or even smaller in a new property you might have to pay around HKD6000 per month.
Please support our advertisers:
"The management fees that you have to pay every month in a new property can be double or triple the amount you have to pay in an old property."
That's a good point. And I have sometimes wondered why there is such a big discrepancy. I suppose it is because those "extra facilities" require extra personnel to look after them.
In the end, it depends how much you use those The Clubhouse and other facilitiies. For those who are heavy users (as I tend to be- I am typing this in a clubhouse right now), then they may be worth it. In that case, you should pay attention to what the facilities are, and whether or not you will be using them often.
Please support our advertisers:
BTW, UD, your:
"for a 3 bedroom unit in an old building you might have to pay around HKD2000 per month whereas ...in a new property you might have to pay around HKD6000 per month."
These numbers seem way too high. I am sitting in one of the 10 best clubhouse in all of HK (I have been told), and we pay a monthly maintenance of $2.00 psf. Previously, in Tung Chung, I paid about $1.50 psf. What is the Per Sq. Foot prices associated with your estimates, please?
Please support our advertisers:
OTP, I was referring to units in the 1500 to 1750 sq ft range. So it comes to about 1.5 psf for the old property (also with some facilities but old) versus about 3 or even 4 psf in the new property. My numbers are estimates but I believe they are pretty accurate.
Also it depends on how dense the complex is. If you are in a highly dense complex then of course rates will be lower. You may be in one of the nicest clubhouses but the rate may be low if there are many residents sharing it.
Personally I would rather use the savings and buy a club membership.
Please support our advertisers:
I am pure hk guys . I think currently the new project price is overprice....usually at 20 & more then near second hand...
But back to 200456 , the price of new is much more reasonable ..
Please support our advertisers:
Ud.,
Sorry to be so persistent on this subject, but I have a desire to know more. I was on the Owners Committee of where I used to live, and I am thinking about running again in the place we live now, so I have a genuine interest in this subject. You talk about "$3 or even $4 psf" in a new property. Is there anywhere than anyone pays such a high management fee? (inside HK, obviously in places like London, you can see that and higher.)
Perhaps it is a smaller building. The Newish building where we were paying $1.50 psf had over 4,000 units. And our new one, where we pay $2.00 psf has close to 2,000 units. Perhaps a building of 100-200 units would have a fee that high. But for a large building, with over 1,000 units, it seems too high to me now. But I am ready to be corrected, if I am wrong.
Please support our advertisers:
Larvotto charges $3.3 psf but you don't have to pay for pool or gym usage and this includes the window cleaning (don't know the frequency) as it is a curtain wall.
In fact, most of the buildings I had seen prior to purchasing were at $2 or above. This includes older buildings. I don't recall anything being lower than $1.8 psf. All of these were in HK side though.
The thing you have to factor in is the service + facilities. I agree that I much rather pay $2 than $3 assuming everything else is the same - but it rarely is. Right now, the rental i am in probably has some very cheap mgmt fee, but the service, quite frankly, sucks. I get that the doorman doesn't exactly factor into my particular living conditions, but when I return home and I get serviced nicely rather than seeing the guy sleeping or randomly opening the door for everyone or giving me stink-eyes for whatever reason or not helping me with the door when I have a armful of crap, I wish they charged more and hired better. I do agree that $3.X is incredibly expensive, but unfortunately, that is the trend of all the new residences with decent club facilities. For the single building development, I think $2.5 is about the top, but for multi-tower facilities, I think high 2's and low 3's are the norm.
As for the original topic. I don't get why people keep talking about the Gross vs Net. I get the difference too, but I imagine most people who buy these properties look at efficiency rate before purchasing. For me, the first question I always ask is the efficiency. In fact, the agents I work with know to put down the net sf in the list of properties. I also take a good look at the layout and see if there is ok space for closets and the such.
I do agree with some poster on here or some other thread that talks about how developers like to draw mockups or create showrooms with smaller-sized furniture.
Please support our advertisers:
AsiaKid,
I strongly recommend that you look somewhere off HK Island (for instance, West Kowloon) to discover if there is a genuine difference due to LOCATION. Maybe the secret is SCALE - having enough flats over which to spread the clubhouse costs, and I know that Larvotto is a middle rise, rather than high rise project - or at least, I believe so.
I honestly do not understand why HK should have higher management fees. They are all drawing on the same labor pool, after all.
Please support our advertisers:
BTW, it ought to be fairly easy to calculate what $1 psf per month is worth on the Sales price. Here's how I do it:
$1 per month x 12 months = $12 per year.
Assuming interest rates of 2.5%, (that's 1/40th of a capital amount), then
$12 per year x 40 on the capital amount : $480 per sf
In other words, if you can save $1 per sf on Management Fees, that's like saving about $500 per sf on the Purchase Price.
In short, the Size of Management fees is an important consideration, but is often overlooked. It is not so easy to overlook $500 psf on the Purchase Price.
Please support our advertisers:
The estimated management fees I gave above are based on developments on HK island. Looking at the numbers again, $4 psf might be a little too high, but $2.5 - 3.5 psf for a new property is pretty accurate. Anyways, even if you take $2.5 psf, it is about 67% more expensive than the management fee of $1.5 psf at an old property.
I'm happy to pay for good building management, but I don't want to overpay either.
AsiaKid, you may be aware of the efficiency rates but there are many who are not.
Please support our advertisers:
Quick question because I forget.. But do we pay property taxes here in HK based off sqft? Is it net or gross?
Please support our advertisers:
No we don't pay property taxes based off sq feet. You pay rates which is estimated off rental values and - if you are not in HK or Kowloon - rates and government rent. Government rent is not something I fully understand but I think it's to do with the first time a land lease is paid to the government. Once the first lease is completed, then government rent ceases and you'll just pay rates. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I really don't understand this too well.
Please support our advertisers:
Efficiency is the net square feet that is under your roof. So this means the actual property that you really own and live in. HK has a tendency to add "common area" sf which is basically the building's area (elevator, hallways, parking lots, swimming pools) that is divided in proportion to the different apartments. Basically, most apartments range from 70% to 90% (most new apartments are 70 - 80% while most old apartments are 80% to 90%).
Please support our advertisers:
Remmy
12 yrs ago
When you buy a new property, the power is usually much more, in the developer. Also a new property is much more prone to mainland "hot money" meaning its prone to a fall as prices will be more inflated, and money can be withdrawn quicker too when sentiment falls.
When the property is in the open market the power is much more with "the market" and so you usually get a better price.
Please support our advertisers:
The SCMP seems to be joining our campaign, albeit with a less-inflammatory headline:
BEWARE EXTRAS, BUYERS WARNED - is how they put it.
(A clearer headline might have said: BEWARE NEW PROPERTIES)
Grand clubhouses, gardens and appliances may look attractive, but the result if often over-priced flats that sell for a loss on the secondary market.
The real problem is that developers are using all that kit as an attempt to justify prices far in excess of the secondary market
They give examples, of investors who lost money on properties recently purchased:
+ Valais: The developer sold a 2,531 sf house at $8,300 psf and two years later it was resold at $7,507 psf. (That's a HK$2million loss for the previous owner.)
+ Wuhu Residence: originally sold in Sept.2010 was a 355 sf flat for $8,236 psf. It has just been resold at $8,113 psf, despite today's property marlet being at record levels
+ Seymour in Mid-Levels: Just re- sold at $28 million, and that was 7% less than the old owner paid, losing a cool $4 million plus transaction costs.
Remember, this is happening in a market where the Centaline index is hitiing new highs.
As one agent quoted by the SCMP put it: "Home seekes shoudl beware of new projects with selling prices that are much higher than prices fetched at nearby young estates."
Damn right. but I bet that same agent was out the same day trying to find buyers for whatever the latest hot new property was. In fact, there's an article about the latest hot new property (Park Summit) just below the first one. But it is probably better if I do not get started on that one.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP, great thread, and going back to your opneing post I absolutely agree with your assessment of aggressive behaviour by some estate agents. Some of the harrassment (of elderly people in particular) is nothing but disgraceful.
South Crest, on castle peak road is another example of new apartments which are priced at well above the average price of relatively new developments in the area. Nice development, but not surprisingly only 2 apartments have sold there to date... seems like the public is catching on.
Please support our advertisers:
Please support our advertisers:
Yes, the whole sector stinks.
Don't worry, the market is due for a big crash...prices will drop. Those agents will be driving taxis or selling their body for cash. When it drops, pick up a bargain 2nd hand property.
Please support our advertisers:
Really not sure who you are talking about re: people calling big drops not being in a position to buy.. That's a baseless assertion if I've ever heard one lol.
a 3M HKD property going to 2M HKD.. well, it's happened before. Ultimately though, I'm really curious as to what's happening in Wanchai as well..
Please support our advertisers:
What is happening in Wan Chai? Are they getting rid of the red light district?
Please support our advertisers:
Prices aren't crazy given the weakness of the dollar. Try selling an average HK flat and buying a place in the UK. The pound is at 1.61 to the US dollar and the country is on its knees for crying out load. Cyberience. If you are a HK permanent resident you can put your name down for public housing. A lot of it is pretty good.
Please support our advertisers:
Don't buy now.
Wait for the (inevitable) pullback.
Buy when prices are lower, and people are afraid.
Please support our advertisers:
Very interesting about Wanchai. My brother brought a 3brm in Wanchi market only for 1.68m 5 years ago. And he had offered recently for 4.15m....He is thinking to sell but also worry can't get a 3 brm any more in Wanchai beside old old building.
Please support our advertisers:
By the way, my little brother loves wanchai because walking distance from clubing. He is so smart brought a flat in earlier age as he didn't like moving around every 2 years after rental contract finished.....
Please support our advertisers:
I will not or can not give any advise to family to buy or to sell......He/She will possiblely blame me either goes up or down.
Please support our advertisers:
I think Abe Lincoln said, "The simple words are the best."
Sometimes true. Let's stay cool here
Please support our advertisers:
As a matter of fact, buying is always better then renting, sometimes waiting is not the right thing, I know people who are waiting for 3 years for the prices to fall ... yet it did not happen ... so a simple formula that justifies buying, in the below scenario :
X wants to buy - viewed some units but thinks that the prices are too expensive, though have a budget of 5M, he see in the landsearch that previous owners have bought for 3M and thinks that the price is too high, so he enters into a tenancy agreement for 1 year + 1 year optional with a minimum stay of 14 months 18K a month.
After 12 months, he is given a notice that the contract is about to come to an end and wants to buy still, however, the market is still 'high' and he decides to extend the lease on the newly increased very modest price of 22K, 2 years come to an end and X paid in total an average sum of 20K for 24months with a total sum of 480,000hkd.
Then assuming that the market did drop and now he can buy the 5M unit he want at 4.7M ... does he save 300,000hkd ? NO - He loses 180,000hkd, because if he would have bought it for 5M 2 years ago avoiding the rental for 2 years, X will skip the hassle of moving between 2 places, renewing contracts, so to buy or not to buy is first of all a question of the reason to buy ... Investment is one thing, but a place to Live at is a totally different thing ... when it comes to self-use, expensive or not expensive is in relation to the rent paid at that moment, if mortgage repayments are much more then the rent, it's either expensive or over budget, but if it's more or less the same or less ? it's not expensive.
Please support our advertisers:
I think those who are holding off from buying property are waiting for more than just a 6% drop (5M - 4.7M)... I am guessing that they are waiting for a scenario smilar to 1997... in which case it would make sense to rent.. but of course, i doubt there will be such a drop in price again.
Please support our advertisers:
"As a matter of fact, buying is always better then renting, sometimes waiting is not the right thing, I know people who are waiting for 3 years for the prices to fall ... yet it did not happen ... so a simple formula that justifies buying, in the below scenario."
If the price drops more than the Rent paid, you are clearly better off by Renting.
You must also invest some equity, and may take a mortgage when you buy. If you rent, you forego this requirement.
So I do not see how you can say it is ALWAYS better to rent.
The only ALWAYS I can think of is this:
It is nearly always better to BUY SECONDHAND.
Why?
Because you pay a premium for a New property, and it will not be new when yu sell, so you will lose that premium.
Please support our advertisers:
Sid, your:
"I bought a 6M property last June, with a 2M down payment. So far I have saved 120,000 in rent."
That's in a reasonable stable market, which fell 5%, then rose 5%.
But from the rent you "saved", you must subtract the interest you paid on your HK$4mn loan, and also subtract any income you might have made on that $2mn deposit.
(At the end of last year, I invested about that amount in a 2 year note that is paying 1% a month! So it is possible to make money these days. That's HK$20,000 per month, more than you are saving on rent, and maybe with much less risk than investing in property.)
Please support our advertisers:
The Notes were issued by T----- Petroleum (TPL.t) and are "secured" by a lien on a drilling rig. They also include a warrant, which I did not count (yet) in my return, which has gone up in value since the transaction closed.
Such opportunities are not easy to find, nor does everyone see the potential. When we did the transaction, I showed it to 3-4 friends, and they all declined. They simply could not get their minds around it.
Please support our advertisers:
OffThePeak,
Next time you see a note like this, let me know. That is an amazing opportunity.
Cheers.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP Sounds like a highly illiquid structured product. Did you buy from a mainstream bank or broker? It's just that there lots of scams out there.
Please support our advertisers:
Locally, there has been a bit of a blow-out in the shop market - or should I say mini shop. Some guy has just refurbished the old China Products store in Tsuen Wan and sub-divided it into extra small shops in Hoi Pa Road selling between 1m and 4m HKD. There were 200 and now only 12 or so this
Morning after a short while on the market. A couple of local guys in our office were seriously considering it. My wife vetoed it as she didn't want to chase 'Post 80s' kids and wannabe businessmen for rent. It's called The Cube and is being marketed by Midland.
Please support our advertisers:
No,
It is not a "Structured Product" - just a straight Note with nothing special but Tethys Credit risk.
I know all about "structured products", since I used to have a Senior derivatives job for a major Global bank. I generally AVOID them, because the risk is nearly always mis-priced, the customers are getting ripped off. Unscrupulous bankers imbed a Put or Call option in a note, and then give back maybe half of its real value in a higher interest rate.
I tell the idiot bankers who try to sell me these things: Have you PRICED the risk you are asking me to take? If I want to take that risk, I will just sell the option myself. Then I get more money for it, and can manage it more effectively - In a strucured note, I am just stuck with it.
Mostly these things, like I-Kill-You-Laters, have huge assymetrical risk, where the client can lose 10X or 20X or more than the benefit he gets if things move the wrong way.
If I was a Hk regulator, I would attack these abuses with a simple message in red at the top of the document:
THIS INSTRUMENT HAS ASSYMETRICAL RISK:
IT IMPROVES THE CLIENT'S INTEREST RETURN BY $x,xxx OVER THE LIFE OF THE NOTE, IN EXCHANGE FOR THAT IMPROVEMENT THE CLIENT COULD LOSE UP TO XX TIMES THAT ON HIS ULTIMATE CAPITAL RETURNED.
Such a brief warning would be far more useful than a multi-page document, and it would cut straight to the risk issue involved. The bankers would hate it, because they would sell less product, but it would force them to have exactly the sort of conversation they should be having with clients.
(Please feel free to copy this, and send it to the HK regulator. These guys have failed to do their jobs properly, and clearly need help !)
Please support our advertisers:
No. Secondhand is not "always, always" better than new.
Back in 2006, We bought a NEW High floor 3BR flat of 1220 sf at Caribbean Coast in Tung Chung for just under HK$3.5mn. At the time, a similar secondhand flat would have cost maybe $3.7mn.
This was from Cheung Kong, who are known to "dump" their flats at Low prices at certain times, when they have an excessive number of flats to sel.
There may be an opportunity like that in Olympic station, if one of my local agents is to be believed.
The Long Beach has sold 3 of its 8 towers, back in 2007. They are going to put one of the Towers on the market in the next few days. Viewings will start in Saturday afternoon.
The agent called my partner, and said he expected prices to be $8,000 -10,000 psf. If that is true, it will be an incredible bargain. My informed opinion is that TLB is a much better property, with a better clubhouse than Park Summit which just sold out at around $9,000 -10,000 average price.
Watch this space...
Please support our advertisers:
My biggest problem with new properties, as I've expressed before, is the big difference between the net square footage and the gross (sale-able) square footage (aka "efficiency"). Why is it that, from my understanding, it is ILLEGAL to sell a property in London if you are not using the NET square footage yet in hk it is totally legal to sell based on gross square footage?
Please support our advertisers:
LGMV
"Locally, there has been a bit of a blow-out in the shop market - or should I say mini shop. Some guy has just refurbished the old China Products store in Tsuen Wan and sub-divided it into extra small shops in Hoi Pa Road selling between 1m and 4m HKD. There were 200 and now only 12 or so thos
Morning after a short while on the market. A couple of local guys in our office were seriously considering it. My wife vetoed it as she didn't want to chase 'Post 80s' kid and wannabe businessmen for rent. It's called The Cube and is being marketed by Midland."
I got a msg from an agent a couple weeks ago with the same info...started along the lines of retail space in tsuen wan for $1mn - $3mn. Obv. I thought this seems too good to be true. Until I got the email with layout plans/ sizes, and realised they're asking for 30-40k+psf...there are lots of these70-100 sqft units avail for lease in TST. If those are vacant, then the stores in Tsuen Wan have no hope.
Please support our advertisers:
mash108. A couple of my colleagues went there to have a look and they were glad they didn't buy. They said the location wasn't as good as they thought.
Please support our advertisers:
I've went to look at a few units at Long Beach in the previous 3 towers.. I don't know, I'm not impressed. I haven't been to Park Summit but I definitely don't think TLB is worth it in the 8-10k range. They are on a sort of quiet back road, all on their own. The units have been built for like 7 years and sitting there empty, kitchens and some of the floors are already falling apart.. It's not a 'new' flat IMO.
In fact, I feel like the whole Olympic area is way over priced. If we do face a credit crunch, I think prices are going to fall there first. I'd like to see statistics on how many people in Olympic have mortgages. Seeing as its a fairly new area (8-10 years?) I would imagine an extremely high number of them have some exposure to interest rate risk.
Moreover, a lot of them are younger families so they aren't sitting on a cushion of wealth underneath them.
Please support our advertisers:
Sid, I am not an idiot.
I have been a credit officer in my time, and I can do my own credit analysis. The company is public, and I studied the balance sheet, its cash flow, and its prospects before I invested. Because it was a small financing, of only $10million, the big banks were not involved, and large portions of the financing were taken up by company employees, friends and family.
I heard that Madoff was a scam before the story got out, It didn't take much work to find that out. Those who invested simply did not bother to do their homework, or switch on their brains.
Also, we recognise there is some risk, so we limited how much we invested, and split our investments between 1year and 2year tranches. Payments are being made every month, and we have received four so far.
We also watch the stock price, and it is up more than 50% since we invested. We have no direct exposure to the stock price (apart from the bonus warrants), but watching that gives me some idea of the health of the company.
Please support our advertisers:
Elsdon, we know it well - we live there.
And it is a great place to live -one of the top clubouses in HK. The 2BR layouts are probably the best in HK, since you can get a Queensized bed in it, with room to walk around it. The main problem is that they sold off the Towers which would lose their view - and kept the others to sell later. Fortunately, we did not lose our view in our flat.
Also, LGMV's joking about the location: He thinks Mid-levels is the "bees knees", so anywhere else is "not so good." Somehow, they have managed to sell flats at $15,000 - $45,000 per sf next door at Imperial Cullinan. Those top end flats above $40,000 (next door) beat almost everything in Mid-levels. So the buyers that took them must have thought the location was okay.
Anyone who has their doubts, should come and have a look in the next few days, then you will get a sense of what is on offer.
I think they will sell very well. At $8,000 psf - if they really sel them so cheaply, they would be a steal.
Please support our advertisers:
OffThePeak,
Ah good to know.. I'm guessing you are quietly hoping that it sells well as it bodes well for your property. :P In all fairness though, I've always found your analysis to be unbiased and fact based, never one to really talk his own book.
Part of me wonders since TLB has been selling in the second hand market well into the 9k-10k/psf range, why they would be trying to unload the units at this price, at this point in time.. Obviously, they are trying to capitalize on their return, so do they think there will be a price correction soon in the HK market? Are they simply facing a lack of cashflow and can't hold on any longer? What are the business drivers selling in a market like today's?
If they price in the 8k-10k range.. I wonder what kind of guarantees they will give, if any, on the units.. The few units I went to check out were literally falling apart from sitting there stagnant for so long.. They will also effectively lower the 2nd hand market for TLB arguably.
Tower 8 is where? Does that face NW or W?
Please support our advertisers:
Haha no.. The Long Beach is opening up Tower 8 for sale.. all 46 floors or something of it.. Over this weekend.
It's a huge open house. Expect lots of mainlanders, chinese folk, etc. I'll be there tomorrow.
Please support our advertisers:
I will be there too, Elsdon. I expect a few smart expats might also join the viewing tomorrow.
Drop me a PM here if you want, and I'll give you my phone number, if you want to get the "insider's story."
Latest word "on the street" is that prices might be closer to $12,000 psf on average, which makes much more sense than $8,000-10,000. I think some the agents don't really understand LB, because it never had the huge launch circus that some other nearby properties had. One of my friends who bought at Imperial Cullinan felt unwell, when he saw the value-for-money proposition that he might have had just a few feet away at The Long Beach.
Rather than "talking my own book", my book arises from my views, and so they are completely in harmony. I have encouraged others to but ay LB in the past because I think it represents value. The "it is a long walk from the MTR" idea was put to rest IMHO when Imperial Cullinan, just next door, sold at such high prices. It will be really interesting in the weeks and months to come, to see if IC can hold its rather large premium to LB. If there were some cheap and easy way to short that spread, then I would do it.
Please support our advertisers:
Eldons, re: the TPL Notes, and your:
"Next time you see a note like this, let me know. That is an amazing opportunity."
I still think so. In fact there was a lunch by the company as recently as today, and they said that they are now Cash flow positive, and will not be needing more capital raisings "for the foreseeable future." That's exactly what I wanted to hear, and I hope it is fully accurate. Earnings will be announced in about a week's time, so we will know more soon.
I spoke to the broker who put me into the deal, and they said that they may launch another creative financing for a drilling program sometime next year. And the loan providers would get some sort of interest rate plus a royalty, if the wells are successful. That might be something we would do, once we get back our principle on the one year note in 8 months time.
IF ELSDON OR ANYONE ELSE here wants to know who the broker is, then send me a PM and I can tell you a bit more. We have no stake in anyone doing business, but I appreciate being included in as a smallish investor, and want the broker to think of us as a useful party to work with, and tell about future deals.
Please support our advertisers:
Long Beach
The rumor here is that nearly all of the flats in Tower 8 have now been "sold". Though the sales are not technically done, apparently they have reservation for virtually all of the flats.
Prices on some of them seem quite cheap to us. Such as $10,000 psf for some higher floors with a nearly open view.
It will be interesting to see if Hang Lung now moves on to selling the other remaining Towers. If so, they will probably raise the price.
Please support our advertisers:
As a general rule, I'd rather invest in a property developer than do business with one.
Please support our advertisers:
Hrm. I went to line up on Saturday to see the Long Beach and ultimately left unimpressed. Apparently, this is how Hang Lung always manages their openings.. I went up to see the place with a family friend, who is an agent, and my property confidant here in HK. She has been integral in all my decision making and only brings me to stuff that she thinks is worth taking a look at.
The units in tower 8 are all 2bd/1bath/~750sqft. If the pricing is in the neighbourhood of what OffThePeak is saying, I don't know if that bodes well for the area. It is quite low (cheap?) relatively, and I'm still wary of their thinking behind it.
Regarding buying equity vs property.. I don't know, personally I'd rather buy the property.. Companies can be poorly managed, but your property typically has more holding value. Confirm/deny?
Please support our advertisers:
Prices were lower than expected, except the seaview flats
Our view in Tower 3 is better (IMHO) than anything we see in Tower 8, but apparently "sea view mad" HK people will pay plenty extra for seaview, even if partly view-restricted and is looking out on some very boring scenery of an industrial nature.
My partner and I like very much the layouts of some of the flats: with windows on three sides, and a Master BR large enough so you can put in a clothing wardrobe, and still walk around a queensized bed. That is all too rare in the Olympic area. Most Expats prefer it.
I do think the other LB Towers will come in at higher prices, as the average view may be better.
Long Beach is a steal compared to the recently-sold Park Summit, especially when you consider the vastly superior clubhouse at LB. (I still maintain the Clubhouse is in or near the Top 10 in Hong Kong.)
Perhaps prices were offered so low (with little money spent on advertising) because some people were concerned that the flats were completed long ago in 2004. Maybe people wondered what would happen to flats in the heat and humidity after so many years without Aircon. Given the much lower build costs back then, developer Hang Lung makes good money at these prices.
I may not be an expert in the eyes of HK people, but I have bought and sold over half a dozen properties in HK, and have made money every time.
Please support our advertisers:
Likewise unimpressed..
The box type aircons are more reminiscent of the 80's and cheap projects like Caribbean Coast.. the club house must be in complete contrast to the buildings if they are as nice as described.
Colour schemes of the units are also not ALL as shown in the display units. Only one in 4 floors has the dark floor, dark kitchen cabinets and entrance doors etc. Others have light brown floors, green-ish colored kitchen cabinets and IMO look cheap..
I didnt find the bedrooms particularly big at all. You might be able to squeeze in queen bed and a small wardrobe... but as far as wlaking around the bed.... impossible.
The windows on three sides are quite nice, however many buyers were put off by the feng shui... (sharp edges of the buuldings that are visable from the other towers). It seems to be a problem particular to tower 8 becasue of its layout... but something worth considering before buying.
Regarding location, your view is either a city view, which on most floors is blocked by Island Harbour View, or an ocean view which is nothing special (except for unit A) in comparison to other developments. Add to that the constant noise of ships in the industrial area adjacent to LB and you start to realise why the price is as it is.. not exactly cheap for what you're getting.
The quality of the development is also questionable, from friends who live there, they report that there are constant problems with water pressure and pipes and the like's....
Please support our advertisers:
Likewise unimpressed..
The box type aircons are more reminiscent of the 80's and cheap projects like Caribbean Coast.. the club house must be in complete contrast to the buildings if they are as nice as described.
Colour schemes of the units are also not ALL as shown in the display units. Only one in 4 floors has the dark floor, dark kitchen cabinets and entrance doors etc. Others have light brown floors, green-ish colored kitchen cabinets and IMO look cheap..
I didnt find the bedrooms particularly big at all. You might be able to squeeze in queen bed and a small wardrobe... but as far as wlaking around the bed.... impossible.
The windows on three sides are quite nice, however many buyers were put off by the feng shui... (sharp edges of the buuldings that are visable from the other towers). It seems to be a problem particular to tower 8 becasue of its layout... but something worth considering before buying.
Regarding location, your view is either a city view, which on most floors is blocked by Island Harbour View, or an ocean view which is nothing special (except for unit A) in comparison to other developments. Add to that the constant noise of ships in the industrial area adjacent to LB and you start to realise why the price is as it is.. not exactly cheap for what you're getting.
The quality of the development is also questionable, from friends who live there, they report that there are constant problems with water pressure and pipes and the like's....
Please support our advertisers:
Agreed on the cheapness of the look of things.. It's interesting, when I lived in Liberte, I always hated the fact that it was annoying to have a platform before you get to the ground floor..
But now, the alternative is similar to some places I've seen in Ma On Shan (Baycrest areas?) where its like little roundabouts infront of each building.. I don't know, personally, I'd rather have the platforms. Just that little extra privacy and extra 'safe space'.
Agreed with rob on the insides, lol. Being finished and sitting there stagnant for the past 7 years has yellowed all of the AC units and they are not re-finishing anything. Flooring is standard wooden lock-in-place typical of almost every building these days.
I just feel that for the price, you should be getting something a little bit extra.. You can say Imperial Cullinan got a certain price etc etc.. but have you SEEN Imperial Cullinan? Hate to be that guy but.. SHK is REALLY SHK.. There's a reason they're famous for having the bestsh*t.. it's because, they literally have the bestsh*t...
Please support our advertisers:
If you haven't seen the Clubhouse, you haven't seen Long Beach properly. I reckon it was a big mistake by Hang Lung not allowing potential buyers to see the clubhouse. (Maybe they could have given that chance to those who provided a deposit.)
The floors change every three floors, not every four. And we have cherry in our flat, which is very nice.
I think the C and D layouts in Tower 8 are by far the best, but they come without the seaview. No problem whatsoever in walking around the Queen sised bed in those units - that's the arrangement we have.
Clearly, you haven't viewed the other flats in the area, or Coronation, or places like Zenith in Wanchai.
The 740-750 sf C and D units are as good a layout as I have seen anywhere (including in new flats in various parts of HK) for flats of the same size. Of course, they are not easy to compare with 900-1000 2BR flats. But compare them with Harbourgreen, or Hampton Place, or Park Summit, then they are quite okay. A big feature, which you seem not to rate, are the windows on three size, providing good light and ventilation.
LOL. Are you trying to compare with Imperial Cullinan? My flat looks down on a flat that cost its owner $45,000 psf, and many more than cost between $13,000 and $20,000 psf. The location is the very similar, or just the same. I think it is pretty obvious which is the better buy.
I think IC owners are going to have a serious problem reselling their flats without a painful loss, unless prices rise.
BTW, I'd be happy to visit wherever you live. I am sure I could make a few critical remarks on your property. (haha)
Go back, and you will see that I started these comments on LB because I thought that it was noteworthy that "new" properties at LB were being offered at such a small premium to secondhand. I think the future of the Olympic area is bright, and over time you will see this area outperform most other areas of HK and Kowloon. Buying without paying a 10-20% premium of secondhand may prove a smart move in the long term. (When I bought in Tung Chung at a discount to 2nd hand, it worked out very well.)
Please support our advertisers:
I think the price is ok for what they are ... "new" units (that are several years old already), and dont look "current" .... there's probably nothing on the market that it can be compared to.
My concerns are that when it comes to reselling, they will look the same age as the units in the other towers... some of which have superior views. I think the real winners here will be the owners of units in the already occupied towers.
For a little bit more, and given its location, Victoria Towers in TST is a better investment..
Please support our advertisers:
I just went to look at Tower 8 at night.
I still think that the layouts of C and D are best, but I am not at all crazy about the views there. They look out on the traffic circle, and when you turn the Aircon off, you can hear traffic noise. So probably the seaviews are better, but there are some potential problems with that side too, which are somewhat minor. (I could respond to
Please support our advertisers:
I just went to look at Tower 8 at night.
I still think that the layouts of C and D are best, but I am not at all crazy about the views there. They look out on the traffic circle, and when you turn the Aircon off, you can hear traffic noise. Probably the discounted price, versus the seaview, reflects that.
Probably the seaviews are better, but there are some potential problems with that side too, which many would regard as minor. (I could respond to a PM about these minor problems, but there's no need to knock here on a public forum what looks like a reasonably priced property for someone keen on a seaview.)
Please support our advertisers:
hahah well I didn't mean to 'offend' your choice of living.. :P I didn't know you were the principal designer for Hang Lung.
Don't get me wrong, I think TLB does have more value than most of the other places in Olympic but given the distance of the walk and lack of taxis on the street around it, its not really right for me.
What would be ideal for me is a.. 800-100sqft 3br/2bath where I can convert it to a 2bd/2bath with a non-useless 2nd bedroom that I can use as a study.
Unfortunately, nothing like this exists inside any remotely modern housing estate and will never exist because there's simply no market for it. Most of the walls between the 2nd/3rd bedroom are structural and cannot be torn down.
Ultimately, once I rollover my principal money a few more times I will probably buy a large super old flat shaped like a box, and redo the entire interior myself. Until then, I need liquid flats in housing estates so that I'm agile enough to catch the market timings that I am looking for.
This may not be for everyone, but I don't mind moving every year or two. I'm used to being homeless so I both my primary and secondary residences as investment vehicles, willing to sell either to the highest bidder when the timing is right for me.
I agree with you, layouts C/D are the best. That being said, I still think the small room is too small to be useful. I can't even fit my office desk in there.
Please support our advertisers:
There are some flats of that size (800-1,000 sf) around HK.
We owned some, but they were not as close to Hong Kong Central as Olympic station is - Two stops, after an 8-10 minute walk, is not bad.
And here's the Flat Layout that I have been talking about: http://tinyurl.com/LB-Layout
Have you looked at the top four floors of One Silver Sea, facing towards Imperial Cullinan. I think they are about 900 sf, and cost something like $13,000 - 14,000 psf
Layout: http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2310/osstw6.jpg
Don't buy below the Top 4 floors, unless you are happy to be looking straight into Imperial Cullinan.
Please support our advertisers:
One Silversea is a bit out of my price range. I have a friend living there right now, renting, been to his place and its nice but I don't think worth it for the area.
I feel the same way about IC. In general, I feel that Olympic is overpriced as there is currently not a whole lot there. Paying Hong Kong Island prices for a suburb is crazy in my mind. I've went to see Florient Rise, Hermitage, Harbour Green, etc.. Pretty much all of the buildings in Olympic, I don't know.. I haven't found a single one I'd buy yet to be honest.
Please support our advertisers:
You will have read my thread on Mid-Levels, and why I believe it is over-rated. (Certainly time has shown more appreciation so far in WK, since that thread was started.)
The main advantage of the Olympic area is the fast journey to Central - faster than to and from Mid-Levels most of the time.
As an example, I once walked out of a restaurant on Hollywood Road, and then within 60 minutes I had returned to my flat (via MTR) picked up my passport and made it back in time to buy ferry tickets for Macau.
I really doubt you could do that in Mid-Levels, unless you were very lucky and had a taxi waiting for you on both sides of the journey.
Once the Express train and West Kowloon Cultural Centre are in place, the advantages of the area will become clearer and clearer. As it stands, you have to search out the new restaurants that are opening every month in nearby Tai Kok Tsui. Hint: try the Ivy Street area.
Of course, to each his own. But I still think that the chance to buy a good quality new flat in Olympic at $10,000 psf or less in a building with one of the top 10 clubhouses in HK (so it was rated), may be something you will not see again - especially at no big premium to secondhand.
Still, it's YOUR money, and your decision. Not mine. I (genuinely) hope you find what you are looking for.
Please support our advertisers:
Unfortunately it is a fact that new properties are more expensive than old ones. That's why I bought myself a
repossessed property - price was much lower and I believe the 'older' buildings are built better
Please support our advertisers:
Uh, lol. In Hong Kong? Not sure but aren't these in Africa???
Please support our advertisers:
LOL
That's even further away than the NT, Peng Chau and Cheung Chau.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP.
What are you eating on Ivy Street? Anything not included in: http://www.openrice.com/english/restaurant/sr1.htm?tc=top2&inputstrrest=ivy+street&district_id=&inputcategory=all
But that isn't the Black and White you mentioned previously? It all looks fairly uninspired to me.
Please support our advertisers:
Maybe I have "gone local" more than you.
I pay more attention to what I am eating that the decoration of the restaurant.
There are many choices in the area.
== ==
If this is a good example of what you get for $10,000 psf on HK Island:
Flora Court/Caine Rd.: 500 sf: $4.98 Million
/photos: http://www.iglu.com.hk/38/section.aspx/view/prodinfo/pid/7874
Then, thanks very much, but I'll stick to Tai Kok Tsui.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP, someone living in mid-levels would have already been in Macau by the time you made it back to buy your ferry tickets. They could either walk, catch a minibus, catch a double decker bus, or even drive. There are many choices. Let's get real here, you can't compare the convenience of living in mid-levels versus living in Olympic when it comes to getting to and from central. I'm not saying Olympic isn't a good place nor am I saying mid-levels is the best place to be. I don't live in either. But I'm pretty sure It's much faster traveling to and from central when you're living in the mid-levels versus if you're living in Olympic. Now traveling to and from west Kowloon is a different story. But right now west Kowloon is dead. And even with the express train and wkcd, I think the area has been poorly planned. Nowhere near enough commercial space for the area to become a CBD. Just over priced residential apartments owned buy mainlanders using them as holiday homes. For 10k a foot I would rather buy in Kennedy town than Olympic. But as you said, to each their own. Truth is I don't know a great deal about Olympic and would like to learn more about the area. Been there a couple times though.
Please support our advertisers:
That's nonsense, Ud.
I am talking about real times. The buses crawl through Midlevels most of the day, and unless you are an Olympian, you cannot walk that fast.
I have actually done that experiment, to and from The Long Beach, in just under 60 minutes, walking a "normal" fast pace. No cabs, no buses.
From Hollywood Rd. to some property on Middle Levels, up the elevator in the property, find your passport and then all the way back Macau Ferry, what building could you be living in and do all that: Centre Stage certainly. But Robinson Place? I severely doubt it. Not without a waiting taxi and flowing traffic. Add rain or rush hour traffic, and your got a 1 1/2 hour to 2 hour round-trip journey.
(BTW, it took 20 minutes for me to post both parts of thsi email - that's one third of my roundtrip journey time.)
== ==
When people say something like this:
"right now west Kowloon is dead... Just over priced residential apartments owned buy mainlanders using them as holiday homes." I think they must be talking about the properties on top of Elements Shopping centre - ie Kowloon station. There's more to WK than that. In fact, it is the old and new areas around Olympic where most of the change is occuring.
I sometimes give people a little tour:
+ We meet at Olympic station, walk on to:
+ The Pacific Coffee in Hermitage (or a meal in the Food garden area there), and on:
+ Walking across the major traffic artery (Cherry Street) down Pine St and past still-being-completed Park Summit,
+ There are new restaurants springing up on Cherry Street, and
+ We turn left at Ivy Street, past the municipal building (with its wet market, library, and public swimming pool),
+ Under the highway, where you come to the "high street" restaurant area of Ivy Street, and then
+ Turn left, and walk (down what still remains a dark and boring street) to HSBC Centre,
+ New the entrance to HSBC is Florient Rise and a new restaurant area is slowly emerging around it.
+ You can then take the escalator back into HSBC and walk on the platform to the MTR,
+ If you have more time, you can walk right thru the station to Olympian 1 shopping mall and then through it, down the escalator and around Island Harborview to One SilverSea, Imperial Cullinan, and Long Beach.
+ Before year-end, a new boutique hotel (the Fullerton, as in Singapore), will open in the lower floors of OSS, and there's a nice little garden walkway in front of it, which will one day connect to WKCD - it will be great for bicyclists, I reckon.
If you don't know the landmarks I am talking about, then I would say you don't really know much at all about West Kowloon.
One word you would not apply to that journey is "dead." Most of that area is very lively. A better description would be: "under-going great change", and indeed the restaurants and other establishments you see are changing.
Since I live near OSS, I am particularly looking forward to the opening of the Fullerton Hotel. I hope they put a decent coffee shop near the sea. That will prove a popular destination in the long run, if they do.
Where the Hotel will be:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1285/ossfullert3.jpg
Please support our advertisers:
Since mid-levels probably has at least ten times the amount of residential buildings as Olympic (I actually have no evidence of this fact, but I'm assuming at least this much since it has been around for much longer), I think it is only fair that you compare the buildings that are short walking distances from the escalator system and central. Once Olympic develops and expands like mid-levels is today, there will be many buildings that are far away from the mtr station. And traffic will also become more congested when that happens. But anyways, I'm not a fan of mid-levels, I just think its convenient when it comes to getting to and from central. And just for your info, I have done the walk from queens road central to past Robinson place in 15 -20 mins many times, since I have family that live on Bonham road. From Hollywood road it would be even faster. The thing about mid-levels is you can just walk, a taxi would probably take longer. So even getting to a place like Robinson place, I know would take much less than 60 minutes. Because when you went back to Olympic I'm sure you ran your you know what off! Hahaha. Anyways, thanks for the info on Olympic. I really do want to learn more about that area and I don't know most of the landmarks you mentioned, so one of these days I'm going to check them out.
Please support our advertisers:
Also, when I said wk is dead, I mean in terms being a CBD.
Please support our advertisers:
"I think it is only fair that you compare the buildings that are short walking distances from the escalator system and central"
All of the "Olympic station area" is within walking distance of the MTR stop of that name.
Essentially, when you compare commutes from Olympic area buildings to commutes from Midlevels, you are comparing commutes by the (reliable) MTR with escalator rides plus either:
+ long, long walks, or
+ (unreliable) bus or taxi journeys to Midlevels,
If you have to travel the escalator in the wrong director, or have a traffic jam, the journey time becomes unpredictable
I maintain that if you work in the IFC or in the Central area, you are likely to have a quicker and easier commute from a property in the Olympic area, than you will to/from Midlevels.
Some banksters or lawsters, who think nothing about jumping in cabs every day may disagree. But the average HK person will know what I am talking about.
There are more office buildings in Tai Kok Tsui than there are in Midlevels, so I am not sure that TKT needs to try to recreate a CBD within walking distance to be successful, it already has easy access to Central at approx HK$10 MTR journey. That's less expensive and more reliable than a taxi ride.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP. You need to walk up and down steps to get on to the MTR. Ho mahfahn. For HK people this is a fate worse than death.
Please support our advertisers:
Not at Olympic station - its all escalators.
But traveling through the escalator area in the "wrong" direction can be a real pain, if you have a bad knee - I can tell you.
Please support our advertisers:
I think the biggest thing you've overlooked is that Midlevels definitely has expatty retail 'stuff' near it.. Expatty food, expatty shops.. Hence, it can fetch the expatty price.
Olympic is still very 'local'. Myself, being a local, I can appreciate the growing convenience in the Olympic area. That being said, it shouldn't be at expatty prices; it should be at local prices.
Please support our advertisers:
LOL.
One of the perils of Mid-levels life, is it ?
Please support our advertisers:
The last couple of times I went to Olympic, there was a strange odour. Nothing disgusting and perhaps down to the kind of disinfectant being used. Not sure if anyone on this forum has stayed at the Shangri-la in Taipei, but there is a similar odour there in the lobby. Perhaps too much shake'n'vac.
Please support our advertisers:
OTP, I'm a little unfamiliar with Olympic & TKT. Can you please enlighten me on the difference between Olympic and Tai Kok Tsui? Is there any difference? Is TKT in Olympic? Is TKT walking distance from the MTR too? What is the price difference psf between the two?
Going back to the commute discussion. Are you trying to tell me that when you reach Olympic MTR station you are all of sudden minutes away from every flat in Olympic? That sounds a bit unrealistic. And if it is true, there obviously aren't that many developments in Olympic.
Finally, if you're out in Soho until late and the MTR is closed, how much is a cab to Olympic?
Please support our advertisers:
As far as I know, Tai Kok Tsui is a district in Kowloon (just like Sham Shui Po, Mong Kong, etc.). Olympic on the other hand may have gotten it's name from the MTR station with that name (historians can help here).
From the Olympic MTR station almost all the newly built residential estates are at 5-15 minutes of regular walking.
Taxi fare from Central to TKT including the 40$ West tunnel fee should be more or less 100HK$.
Please support our advertisers:
There is absolutely no reason to take a cab from TKT to Central.
It is quicker, easier, and cheaper to take the escalator at HSBC Centre, and then walk less than two minutes to the MTR station. Seven minutes after you get on the train, you are in Central, at the foot of IFC-2.
Why bother with the taxi?
I think I have taken about 3-4 cabs a year since I lived here.
Please support our advertisers:
That is a bit disingenuous..
Getting from Olympic ANYWHERE that isn't Central requires lots of walking.. or long buses.. or taxis. There is no 'real' MTR line near Olympic, just the Tung Chung one which comes sometimes upwards 10 minutes between each train.. Going from Olympic, to say TST, how would you get there?
Please support our advertisers:
Once in a while, I do like to stay out past when the MTR is in operation. It would be those times that I take a cab home. Or when say, my wife has been pregnant and wasn't very comfortable walking on the MTR. Or say, when my older relatives visit Hong Kong and do not feel comfortable walking longer distances. There are many reasons I can find to take a cab. And taking cabs around HK island don't cost that much as the distances are quite short. And by the way, it's quite a long walk to get from IFC to say Soho. About as long as it would take to get from Soho to many flats in mid-levels.
Please support our advertisers:
At the end of the day, people who live in Olympic and TKT are going to be making the trip to Central for work and/or entertainment at least once a month, if not once a week and in many cases everyday. On the other hand, there are very few people who make the trip from Mid-Levels (or anywhere in HK island) to Olympic for work and/or entertainment. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Please support our advertisers:
"There is no 'real' MTR line near Olympic, just the Tung Chung" ?
What?
No real line? Are you joking?
The Tung Chung Line IS THE real line. Unless you never go to the airport.
I suppose if you think a journey from Wan Chai to North Point or Tai Koo Shing, is the Bees Knees, then maybe the Tung Ching line is pretty unnecessary.
But Tai Kok Tsui and Nam Cheong will have some of the best connections in HK:
+ TKT : if you can walk from there to the Express Train to China, and
+ NC : if you want West Rail
It is also fairly easy to walk from TKT to Mong Kong to Prince Edward. We've done that loads of times. And the bus service to TST is a breeze as well.
Let's face it, as Expat Housing allowances get phased out*, Mid-Levels is at risk of becoming a back-water: Old flats with brown parqueted floors, and noisy and inefficient air conditioners. What's better than that, is wildly over-priced. (I reckon that's how mainlanders look at it. They will "win" in the end, don't you know!)
*Link:
http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/career-advice-work-visas/threads/146935/asias-endangered-species:-the-expat/
Please support our advertisers:
OTP, in your opinion, what's the best overall restaurant in Olympic? The one place which you feel gives the best impression of the area in terms of ambiance, quality of food and crowd. Let me know and I will have meal there and see what this Olympic place you talk about is all about.
Walkup, you're right, the walk from IFC to soho is pretty easy, but it's still a decent walk. My point is, walking from soho to most flats in mid-levels is also a decent walk, but easy.
OTP, you do realize its possible to renovate old flats right? You actually can change the flooring and a/c. If you're willing to put some time into renovating a flat, there is much more value buying in older buildings rather that the probably inefficient new buildings in Olympic.
Please support our advertisers:
Haha perhaps our lifestyles are different.. I don't go to the Airport nearly as often as I am going out around town, and when I do go to the airport I just take a taxi as the price for a Taxi from Kowloon to the airport is around the same price as two airport MTR tickets. (me+1)
The walk from Nam Cheong to the west rail is down a huge escalator and up another one.. I sort of enjoy the straight across the platform walks characteristic to the real MTR lines (red line, blue line, green line, FIN.) Getting on the real line (red line) at Lai King isn't so bad, but you are in the middle of bumf*ck nowhere at that point and have to ride 15-20 minutes to get back into civilization.
Yeah, I too would like to eat at your #1 Olympic restaurant. Please don't say Food Republic or I will commit seppuku.
Please support our advertisers:
"Best overall restaurant in Olympic?"
It depends on what you like. (And is not yet a place for serious MidLevels-trained foodies, but it is constantly changing.) My own favorites shift, and my partner's taste is different from my own - for example, she will not eat any dish with MSG in it. Her current favorite is a small "local restaurant" with a colorful chef, who cooks special dishes for her.
I often recommend the Purple Clay pot, but that's a further walk from Olympic station.
I look for value and variety. I would recommend you try two, chosen by yourself. Try one at Hermitage (suiting your own taste), and one on the Ivy Street area. And maybe afterwards, drop in the Black & White on Ivy Street and try a "pudding", as my partner calls desert.
We do eat at Food Republic sometimes, but mainly because I am happy to have the sliced cucumbers at one of the restaurants there, and I will chose different main courses to go with it, and sometimes sushi from Taste.
(Come on the weekend, and I might be persuaded to buy you a coffee at the clubhouse in The Long Beach.)
West Rail:
When we return from China, or Hung Hom, we either exit at Nam Cheong station and walk home (which is a 12-13 minute walk), or simply cross the platform and take the line towards HK one stop to Olympic - there are no escalators to worry about.
If we ever need to ride on the horrible and crowded Red Line (which is somehow "real" for you - as a "real crowded", I suppose), then it is simple to change at Lai King.
One of these days, I will create an alternative MTR map, which will have the following stations:
+ Truth King, rather than Lai King
+ Genuine Shui Po, instead of Sham Shui Po
+ Banana Corner, not Lai Chi Kok
+ Crowded Corner, not Mong Kok
+ East Bay, not Tung Chung
...etc.
And maybe a new stop in the future:
"Mo Lon Ho", not Mid-levels
Please support our advertisers:
I currently live in Tai Kok Tsui and the area is quite good for me. I work in Kowloon Tong while my wife works in Sheung Shui. I take a mini bus to MK station and then up to KLT while my wife walks to Olympic and heads over to SS.
The area has a lot of local restaurants and thankfully my wife can speak Chinese. Olympian City is nice for our needs (we don't shop at LV/Prada/Gucci or other high end shops) and we find the stores there suitable to our style. As for restaurants, Simply Life is decent for brunches, I like the German restaurant or the Shanghai restaurant there. We aren't fancy eaters so like I said, everything is good for us.
I do want to comment that if you live in lets say Lime Stardom which is in TKT, the walk to Olympic will be roughly 15-20mins. In the heat, it can be quite hot and it's not covered at all until you hit the steps near Harbour Green. If you live in Metro Harbourview, that's roughly a 10-15min walk as well, probably 15mins.
Please support our advertisers:
HongKong BTW any area is very conveniant provided you are near MTR station or just above MTR station. I am living in Tiu Keng Leng above MTR station and can reach any part of Hong Kong Island/East Kowloon /New Territories in less then 20 minutes. This area is new planned city and with planned new infra projects connectivity is improving. Sai Kung (where is Tiu Keng Leng) is hub of picnic spots/beaches for leisure time. With proposed govt plan to turn Kwun Tong into Grade A Office area soon (like central) , planned cruise terminal, monorail East Kowloon is most happening place.
Regarding overall property market , it is cyclical. I have seen people afraid of buying property and kept paying such high rental for as long as 25- 30 years. Suppose if they had property , would have been completely debt free by now.
IF you are buying property for self use anytime you can buy. Yes if you are looking for speculation or investment it is not good time. But I feel you should not gauge property market just by interest rate factor. IF interest rate rise it will effect property market but interest rates will rise only when economy growth picks up. Economy picks up means payrolls also will rise. So if interest rate rise inline with rise in payrolls it should not have negative impact on property market.
Please support our advertisers:
(This fits here too):
""that &&&..*&^% ...(*&^^% Robinson Road property is just now getting back to its 97 price!!!!" - per Ed.
Actually : Perhaps not!
Robinson Place, that Midlevels bellwether property seems to have gone into reverse gear:
Week : CCLI : CMMI : RobinPl: Tregun : Dynast: Clovell / IslHarb : ParkA : Waterf : Sorrent : TArch : CaribC
vsLo +10.4% +11.7% -2.26%: +3.65% +3.65% +10.6% +13.9% +7.55% +3.80% +18.2%: -7.14% +11.0%
05/20: 103.94 101.89: 13,697 : 18,052 : 22,306 : 18,416: 10,004 : 10,404 : 12,716 : 15,435 : 18,642 : 5,137
===
"Low"
01/08 : 94.16 : 91.25 : 14,014 : 17,417 : 21,520 : 16,651 // 8,780 : $9,674 : 12,250 : 13,060 : 20,075 : 4,630
===
12/04 : 98.13 : 94.30 : 14,189 : 17,635 : 21,790 : 16,859 // 9,016 : 10,054 : 12,435 : 13,257 : 20,131 : 4,834
Two Kowloon Station properties (The Arch and Waterfront) are also weak, because new properties are rising, blocking their view. Perhaps something similar is happening at Robinson Place. Whatever it is, the property is barking like a sick dog, whilst Island Harborview at Olympic Station has soared almost 14% from the beginning-of-2012 Low,
(Island Harborview is overlooked by the upper floors of The Long Beach, so I would expect the top floors to easily beat the IHV average price.)
Please support our advertisers:
re: restaurants at TKT..
I've tried all the restaurants at The Hermitage, and Simply Life would be the only one i would visit again ... for a snack.. but even so, Simply Life at Festival Walk offers a far better choice for cakes..
The Purple Clay Pot sounds interesting... will definitely try.
Please support our advertisers:
I could say the same thing about most of IFC
(And there are more restaurants to choose from)
A few places for coffee there, perhaps
Please support our advertisers:
Where is The Purple Clay Pot?
Please support our advertisers:
It is a bit further afield, above Shining Heights
(I think this is the correct address):
206 Lai Chi Kok Road
Purple ?? Restaurant
Perhaps I have translated the name incorrectly
=== ===
It's a strange old world;
Did you see the price offered on the Heya Green flats (in Sham Shui Po) from the Housing society?
The first 180 flats were offered at HK$7,973 psf. And now another 60 at an average of $8,179 psf. This was described as "reasonable" compared to about $10,000 psf at Park Summit.
Personally, I think that is a nutty price for such an undesireable location, especially when people can spend 10-20% more and get a flat at The Long Beach, which IMHO is superior in every imaginable way.
We checked yesterday and only one flat (13E) was left at LB. I think some new ones will be launched soon, probably at a higher price. The average price of Island Harbourview (across the street from LB) pushed above $10,000 psf in the survey released by Centaline yesterday.
We have a friend who is targetting one of the higher floor flats, not yet released. So we are keeping an eye on the price.
Please support our advertisers:
Sorry to go off topic, but is this the restaurant? I really want to try it out!
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=206+Lai+Chi+Kok+Road,+hong+kong&hl=en&ll=22.326581,114.163238&spn=0.003399,0.005681&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.349227,93.076172&hnear=206+Lai+Chi+Kok+Rd,+Hong+Kong&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=22.326505,114.163334&panoid=Dek4Skvj1_EOUlKYGyiNrA&cbp=12,32.84,,1,3.53
Please support our advertisers:
NO.
But it is near there.
I think this must be the one I have in mind:
Grant Profit Purple Clay Restaurant
Categories: Food and Drink - Restaurants - Chinese
Address: G/F, King Fai Court, 203-207 Lai Chi Kok Road, Sham Shui Po
Please support our advertisers:
To say that is Olympic or TKT should be a crime.. That's closer to Sham Shui Po, or Nam Cheong, lol!
Near my house though, I don't mind. I'll give it a go. :P
Life in Olympic may or may not be right for me, that's all I'm saying. Price wise though, I definitely don't think it makes sense for me. Perhaps some other people see a perceived wealth there that I don't.
Please support our advertisers:
STARVED OF SUPPLY?
That's looking like the fate of the HK Property market,
contrary to the predictions from late last year
"New Supply is Tight", says top property agent.
According to today's SCMP, the new supply in previous years was:
Completions:
2010 : 8,526
2011 : 9,460
Predicted, Centaline
2012 : 10,577
2013 : 15,844
So far, 2012 looks like it might bring the launch of less than 10,000 flats.
That's far less than the 12,000 - 14,000 or more which were projected at the end of last year.
Why did this happen?
So developers saw a falling market, and so delayed the completion and launch of properties.
As one extreme example, Hang Lung has 5 Towers left at The Long Beach, and that included over 1,200 flats. They were expected to have sold all of them by now. Instead, they have "gone slowly", selling only about half of the flats in one Tower.
Perhaps they will go on waiting for higher prices, seeing how slowly the new supply comes into the market.
If CYL wants to bring new supply to Hong Kong, he may turn to the Mainland China property developers, who are seeing a big slowdown in their home market, and are itching to exploit new opportunities in HK. They may be aggressive bidders in Land auctions in HK, provided they have enough cash.
Please support our advertisers:
OffThePeak,
Does that mean that The Long Beach only sold half of Tower 8?? I still haven't seen the.. what do you call them in English?? TRANSACTION CONFIRMATIONS? (sing gow?) yet from The Long Beach tower 8.. But I recall you saying the word on the street was that they were 100% sold out. Is that no longer the case?
That doesn't make sense in the Hang Lung case anyway.. If they forecasted a property downturn, they would want to liquidate 100% of their inventory immediately to try and achieve the highest price point.. Why hold when the downturn hasn't hit yet??
Please support our advertisers:
About half the properties were launched.
For instance, nothing over the 45th floor. And many lower floors were not launched either.
All the launched properties were sold - except maybe 13E.
That's the info that I have anyway.
This piecemeal approach is typical for Hang Lung, from what I hear.
Please support our advertisers:
Elsdon,
The info i have regarding TLB is:
First batch: Floors 9,11,13, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27,30, 31, 33, 35, 36, 37, 43 and 45.
Second batch: Floors 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 22, 23, 25, 28, 29, 32, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42.
No confirmed date for 2nd batch release, but the word is it might be 2025..
Please support our advertisers:
LOL
There seem to be a number of people keen to purchase those flats, and I have been getting quite a few recent viewings of my flat. I recently got an offer, which was just a bit too low to counter. The agent tells me the prospective buyer wants to make a second viewing before making any improvement.
(Maybe he his waiting to see if the upper floors will be launched in Tower 8.)
Please support our advertisers:
< Back to main category
You must be logged in to be able to reply.
Login now
Copy Link
Facebook
Gmail
Mail