Posted by
LMJAAZ
10 yrs ago
Have been in a situation where I've treated wife's family to dinner and bought gifts for her siblings kids. None of them have ever thanked me for it. I make more money than them so don't mind on occasion being generous. However, lately I'm seeing them not chip in on group dinners then going shopping for themselves on items they dont really need. Obviously the thing to do is not to pay the whole bill next time but my wife says if I wont do it she will. What to make of this other than the obvious?
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Yes she does work full time. But she says I should pay. To me when I see people buy luxury goods when I am footing the dinner bill, neither my wife nor me should pay for food. They live above their means while I try to live below mine.
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If you don't feel like paying for it alone, tell her and her family about your intentions of splitting the bill before you guys go out for dinner. If your wife has a problem with it, mention what you said that bothers you in this thread. If she still refuses to look at things from your point of view, go ahead and mention splitting the bill anyway. Heh.
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It's could be about transferring your wealth to the wife's family!
I'm living below my means and if my wife wanted to blow the buffer created by me on her family, then I would have an issue.
I am sure there are things you don't buy as you want to save some cash! I guess you need to keep it in perspective. How much per month or what % of the family budget is spend on free loaders.
Find a money management course for them which may give them a hint.
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Thanks guys. Interesting topic indeed and so far all of your thoughts I agree with. One more thing, what are your thoughts on kids not being counted when the bill is split? What it means some bring a crew of kids but when the bill is split they are not counted at all despite ordering at will on their behalf by the parents. Example oh you dont like this lets order something else, how about some sodas and desserts, etc.
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I would just stop going out with her family.
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Major cultural disconnect here.
Firstly ASIANS are more collectivist. There is an expectation that the group is more important than the individual.
Secondly, You will often see the Sponsor (Patron, BigMan) & Dependent dynamic. In this situation the patron will pick up bills for his dependents.
Its clear they have pegged you as their Sponsor; They believe you have certain obligations to them because of your superior position. In return they owe you respect, and some limited obedience.
Can’t really change this. If it really irks you, you can have some fund demanding they do things for you. You might be surprised what they will do as their obligation. Or, as another has suggested you can stop going out with her family altogether.
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Thanks Capt Dave, but these people are employed and buy luxury products that they don't need. I feel I am subsidizing their lifestyle when they are living above their means. I mean, how could anyone feel proud to live that way by taking a subsidy indirectly each and every time. A homeless person is worthy of a regular free meal not one who has shelter and income.
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how about calling in some special favours and see how much value they put on your being the sponsor/patriarch? would be a good test
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LMJAAZ, if you had children, would you pay for them ? Same deal with these folks.
Not saying I agree with what's going on, but that's the culture.
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LMJAAZ, It sounds like this is quite annoying for you and you have every right to be annoyed.
Have you ever tried talking to the family members and asking why? Maybe explain to them that being a mooch is no way to hold you chin up. Buying luxury goods doesn't cover up a person poor character.
I will never say no to feeding someone but when they go off and buy their bullshit handbags ect that's just taking the piss.
I sometime hear re bills and so on " they don't mind" which gets me a bit uptight.
I don't want to generalize too much but my wife is from the Philippines and some times I get the feeling that the family takes a first place to me.
Example - I give money for brother inlaw kids education and I just find out they hired a maid! WTF! I told them to harden the f*ck up and dump the maid and put that money into education. It not so the wife can work but so the wife can sit on her ass. My wife knew for a while and didn't seem to think it was a problem.
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It's definitely a culture thing. The ones who do well usually foot the bill. It happens with my own family. Not really my immeidate family but my dad's cousin's family. His eldest cousin is considered "well off" by Hong Kong standards so she usually foots the bill at dinner with siblings. I only see them once or twice a year and when I offer to pay, it's always rejected. A Chinese friend of mine said that it's insulting to the ones paying also when I offer because it's like underestimating their wealth.
If it's only dinner a few times a year and you can afford it, your wife probably thinks why not. She probably feels obligated to her family for raising her and if she's the eldst, she feels an obligation to take care of her siblings also. In a chinese family, generosity is important. Sometimes everybody argues (nicely) over who pays because they don't want the other person to foot the bill.
You have two choices. First one is to continue to pay the bill knowing that it's only a few times a year and they are all appreciative of you (they don't say it but they are) or you tell your wife that you are not comfortable and let her pay it. She knows her family best so out of respect for your wife, let her handle it.
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Kids aren't usually counted because kids usually don't eat the same portion as adults. When I'm invited to a family wedding, I'm obliged to bring the kids because we are family but my 3 year old eats nothing. She eats her dinner before we leave home. I still pay her share because she occupies a seat and at weddings you have to pay for the person occupying the seat. In a chinese restaurant, that's not the case. So I wouldn't want to be paying for my 3 year old who eats nothing.
Again, it's tradition. Kids aren't earning so in a chinese culture, they aren't counted. Which is why at Chinese New Year, you give red packets (of money) to kids regardless of their age. Kids are expected to respect the elders in return, meaning to pour your tea for you, greet you etc.
I know it would be great to have everyone pay for themselves and split everything equally but who's to argue with tradition, right?
Let your wife pay if you aren't comfortable with it. In such a family setting if you ever need help, they will do the same for you and your wife also.
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The sponsor thing is definitely intriguing as I've been asked about sponsoring for items many times which I politely took as a joke laughing along with the request. I certainly don't consider money a zero sum game but for me the hurdle is seeing people live above their means. It seems to be Asians in Western countries particularly Chinese whether they be immigrants or native born are very industrious and not adverse to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps. All I see here are folks responding to marketing of needless luxury goods and tying to keep face with the Joneses (or the Chans if you will locally) but not always willing to be patient enough to have things. Instead why not get a sponsor.
Regarding asking someone to do a favor, I feel its disrespectful and makes them an employee like a concierge.
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
Yes it's a cultural thing, but if it's only occasional (say once a month), then I would just do it and not raise it as an issue to keep everything smooth sailing, it's hard to have rational discussions when it comes to family + cultural traditions. Just look at the big picture, it's not worth all the angst if you raise it up.
On top of paying for dinner, do you have to give your wife or your wife's family a monthly allowance? If you do, then maybe you should raise up as it's not entirely fair you also have to treat for all family dinners as well.
At the end of the day, what you spend on these dinners is probably small compared to the % of her salary your wife gives to her parents as monthly allowance anyway.
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LMJAAZ,
Asian migrants in the west are a self selected group. They’ve chosen to better themselves in a foreign country, so they tend to work hard to make good on their dream. They are not representative of the overall Asian population. It’s a bit like expecting everyone in the USA to be like people you’d meet at the American club in HK.
Is asking the folks to be your concierge disprepectful ? No, because they’ve already subjected themselves to you when they took your dinner money. Whether you realize it or not, they see you as the head-man of the village. They expect sponsorship, and will yield small things in return.
You may have been instilled with the Charlton Heston spirit of the self-reliant, rugged individualist , but that’s not the norm in Asia. Your wives family have a different value system. Accept it for what it is, and make the best of it. Who knows what they might be willing to do for you ?
Good Luck.
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Take the local family to Mortons, order yourself a striploin - enjoy it and whilst they are picking their teeth after dinner say you have to leave on urgent business leaving them with the bill. Also remember to remove your wife's purse from her handbag before you go as to prevent her from paying.
That's how I deal with the trash side of my family.
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Asian families try not to be calculative. Why not be generous if you can afford it? You never know when you need their help.
My parents in law have been taking care of my third baby because it's too much for my helper to handle three. My inlaws don't even ask me back for all the stuff they've purchased for my daughter like diapers, food etc. When I try to pay them back, they just waive it off to tell me it's okay.
I've just overheard a conversation over the weekend where the dad said, "I cannot retire yet because I still have to pay for my daughter to go to uni".
And another would be my ex. His parents were poor but his parents, older brother and sister worked hard to pay for his university fees.
My friend's mother still sends her daughter money knowing that money is tight despite her daughter's repeated plea NOT to send it.
What I'm trying to say is that there are two different levels of thinking here. A western way where you have to fend for yourself once you leave home or the asian way where you help each other out without calculating who earns more or less.... with the ones that earn more usually forking out more but all out of love and not calculated. They will be loved and respected in the family for their generosity and kindness.
Like I said, it is cultural. You either accept it or you don't.
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
Not being calculative, I think that's wishful thinking, Asian's are very calculating, those that are not are the minority.
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
Not being calculative, I think that's wishful thinking, Asian's are very calculating, those that are not are the minority.
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Firstly, this is not about how "Asian Families" behave, but rather this particular family. Im asian, raised in the Americas and i grew up watching my parents fighting with uncles and aunties at every family meal over whom should get the bill. The same goes for meals with their friends unless mutual agreement was established before the meal that the bill will be split, including the kids in head count !
From what ive read previously written here on this thread, im of the opinion that your wife's family is just acting selfishly and taking advantage of your politeness. Most families with proper moral standards would be ashamed of such behavior, asian or not. So the problem is specifically with them, and such bad behavior shouldnt be allowed to continue. The fact that your wife would actually take their side in this argurement makes me question her motives and morals as well. When we go out to dinners with my parents or my partner's parents, the parents always offer to pay regardless of the fact that both of us are probably in better fiancial standings than them. If my partners manages to get the bill he pays, and i will do likewise if i wrestle the bill, but always out of our own pockets. Its a sign of respect for each other and for our mutual families that we do this.
Since your wife also earns a living she can pay for her own family dinners if the other members of her family continues to freeload, she shouldnt make this your problem.
my suggestions to you are the following options:
1. Dont go to anymore of these shameful family meals.
2. Set up a joint account with your wife which you both contribute to for family expenses. ( im surprised you havent done that to begin with)
3. Simply stop being polite and push the bill away if you must participate at the next family meal. Sarcastically state you forgot your wallet... and make sure your silly wife doesnt have hers either.
I'm of Chinese decent and my partner is Italian/Irish. This has never comes up as an issue betwn us but im sure he would agree with my suggestions too !
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I don't think this is a cultural thing.
My husband's family who are caucasian do expect us to burden everything including dancing to their schedules, even when we visit their home country, let only their stay in not just Hong Kong, in any Asian country that they visit with us, on the pretext that they will pay back in the future. My husband's sister even asks us to get a Mac book for her on top of our already overloaded luggage and the tibits that we have bought as gifts. We send Christmas presents, lots of things from HK but, we never receive anything nor a casual hello! And to be clear, they are well off, not that they are in need of money or anything.
On the other hand, my Asian parents, they never ask for anything, not even our time. When they visit HK, they take care of themselves, asking for taxis, they even take my husband and I to extremely expensive restos as they want the occasion to be a very special one.
To OP, my husband's family's style has really really made a big gap between our marriage when we recognized how much we are sacrificing and giving them our time and thoughts with no appreciation. From my point of view, it looked like my husband just wanted to show an " I'm great" face, which was not the case when we had a deep talk. He wasn't even aware of it but, when i pointed it out, he realized how much we have burdened compared to what my side of the family expects.
There is a limit to what one can do. I have no idea how to work on this matter. All I can say to OP is, please don't let this get between you and your wife, it is utter unnecessary distraction for your partnership.
My husband and I are working on decreasing this " phenomenon" step by step. First of all, we are going to ignore their schedule and set up our own, then we are going to start charge them for what we have paid. We will NOT listen to any of the " ow, it's so much cheaper in HK" demands anymore.
We'll see how it goes.
Good luck to you!!
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I do not for a second agree that this is a culture thing... I am of Chinese descent living in HK. Whenever we go out for meals, travels and etc with my family, me and my brother will split the bill. If some cousins join us we will split the bill according to # of families rather than headcounts... but we are all good and we expect everybody to chip in except for the elderly. Whenever we travel together, we will contribute to an account and all the costs spend will draw from that account... I would like to stress again that taking advantage of other people’s generosity is definitely not a HK Chinese culture practice , it all depends on the person.
OP, I think it all comes down to different family practice/moral values and how much your wife wants her “face”.. Do talk to your wife about your concern (I see that you have done that and not much help) if I were you, probably I would distance myself a bit with all these meals, making up excuses like I am busy, I am tired so they (as well as your wife) get the message subtlety rather than go for the meals and push the bill and suggest it is their turn to pay … kind of awkward and I bet your wife will be mega angry if you do this on her face because she will be losing the “respect” she think she created … just my two cents..
Another way is to just let your wife pay for it since she has a full time job and these are all her relatives after all and stay firm of you not willing to pay… hopefully she will see your point.
BTW, who is organizing these meals- get-together?
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
The fact that LMJAAZ always pays (and this is expected by all other family members) is evidence in itself they are very calculative.
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Yes and some will order at will with second rounds of appetizers and dishes as we always eat shared style. At the end of the meal no one pulls out their wallet. What bugs me the most is no one says thank you. Personally I would be very thankful if someone treated me like that. Also I would be more conscientious of not running up the tab and eating more modestly.
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She will pay the bill if she sees I'm irritated. That's become more frequent. Her philosophy is don't rock the boat as it would create a firestorm and cause lost of fave to the others to accuse them of being free loaders.
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
You're between a rock and a hard place, like you said, may be better just to suck it up and wear it. The alternative is to try to reduce the number of gatherings or reduce your presence at them, that way, even if your wife still pays, at least you don't have to sit through/witness their ungrateful behaviour (silent protest), they'll get the idea sooner or later if you stop showing your face to such gatherings.
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The straw which broke the camels back was having something as irrelevant as my iPhone 4 constantly ridiculed as out of date when I'm repeatedly paying a dinner bill that's high enough to buy a new one if I felt I needed one. And then to see people not open their wallet but buy needless gadgets and the latest model of everything and brag about them and show them at the table when none of the stuff seems to have any real utility.
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Malka, I don't know what if anything is said behind my back. My language ability is rudimentary. What I do know is I'm rarely involved by them in any conversations. I'm of the personality where I'm inclusive and will bring out a conversation with everyone at the table if I'm in the right mood. But with this group if my wife doesn't involve me because she knows I'm out of the loop, then I tune out as well as disinterested and its hard to fake it when you feel you will be fleeced.
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why do you attend the lunches/dinners then?
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
why do you attend the lunches/dinners then?
umm isn't that obvious? to pay the bill...haha
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Seriously.... There's been enough comments and suggestion on what you can and should do to resolve the problem if you sincerely want it to stop. Action speaks louder than words, instead of continuing to yap and complain here, be a man and DO something ! This whole bear with it and don't rock the boat at all cost is complete BS. If you are not happy with the situation, take action to stop it. Talking about it to a group of people outside of the problem only allows you to vent, and allows more tolerance for the cause of problem to continue. Stop deliberating and get to it, either make your stand and put these shameful family members in their place, or keep quiet and continue letting them walking all over you as they have done. And don't for a srcond believe they think of you as a 'patron' role, those positions in families get respect and deference from all...from what you've said, I don't think there's an ounce of respect from your family to you !! More like you are just the sucker GwaiLo who has been allowing them to walk over you like a door mat.
So man up, or shut up. Simple choice.
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maxis
10 yrs ago
You are a sucker and have bought into a bunch of freeloaders.
Ignor all those comments about being the boss man of this clan and it is Chinese culture etc. You are not the respected boss man, you are cash dispenser and your wife is showing off that she has got you there to impress her family or feels obliged to share her catch "You" or is too scared of rejection if you don't cough up and that is why she will pay if you wont.
they don't sound like nice people at all. So rude not to include people kn conversations, and would never dream of snubbing the Patron.
Ask the other gweillos if they all got this deal, and you will find the answer is NO! My inlaws are decent and kind people, and my wife would not let them try and bleed me out anyhow even if they did.
Read Amandipods comments. Acurate.
How about create "DINNER CLUB"
Say you have this great idea each week a different person gets to pick the restaurant themselves, then they get to decide where to go etc.
Then they get the honour of showing off their selection prowess and ordering skills etc.
Then, they get the honour of paying for it, as it is not fair on them that only you have been allowed that honour and sharing amongst family is so important and you feel uncomfortable as.an outsider being the only one who gets the joy of paying the bill cos you see how in Chinese Culture everyone fights over the bill and it has.come to your attention that your ignorance of culture has caused you to inadvertently lose them face.
Tell them
1 you sincerely apologise for your cultural insensitivity by always paying their bills
2. Seek.their forgiveness t
3. Thank them for being so polite when you have paid before, and
4. promise you will never do that to them again.
Then see how much they want your company about as the gweillo clan leader and whether they will jump or what you request as others above have suggested would happen.
Just open a whatsap group for DINNER CLUB, get them to join up, make a schedule of the adults choice, and for example rules like Dealers Choice to be selected and posted with address by 9pm on fridays.
You will see these expensive dinners cease very fast, or end up at Tsui Wah, which is fine anyhow. And watch your bank balance increase too.
And if DINNER CLUB works then the above comments are retracted and you are chief.
So do something about it now or be that clan's ATM forever and accept your fate of being bled out financially and being their communal door mat.
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It's not culture if it's not mutually caring and respectful. I'm born and raised in Hong Kong. Woman.
Personal scenario:
My parents often complain they paid for some expensive family dinner (grandparents included) where the richest relatives had attended but who were not chipping in at all. As a local, I never understand how this thing is supposed to work even though my parents think the richest ones should cover the expense. BUT I would understand that once they've done it, they'll be expected to do it ALL THE TIME. Probably that's why they've never paid.
Another scenario:
My colleague's husband, the richest of both sides, paid for everything, inc. living expenses of his siblings, not to mention his own immediate family, his wife (my colleague) and the baby. This is an extreme situation. but just to say that even local people take advantage of their own kind too.
I don't think there's any rule or good solution. But just a basic principle: Be mutually caring and respectful otherwise any gatherings are just waste of time.
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hehe, sorry, pressed more than once as I'm too eager to send this out you while it was loading so slow and this message the fifth one. Hopefully you'll get my point :) all the best with your wife (and or without her family).
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Thanks for all the insights and feedback. Much appreciated and hopefully helpful to others as well. Keep the dialogue going. As for the nasty ones, take your frustrations out on other people.
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Actually take it out through sports or try meditation. Getting aggressive on the board is not impressive.
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maxis
10 yrs ago
Well, you now have sufficient views and suggestions, which seems most (including Chinese HK people) are of the opinion it is NOT universal Chinese culture, and that the behaviour is inappropriate and unacceptable.
So, rather than keeping the dialogue going, why don't you make the next post what steps you have taken to address this issue, and the results thereof.
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MJ1
10 yrs ago
Those that are suggesting the hardline approach, i don't think this will go down well, the only outcome is they will completely cut you off and then you'll have to put up with your nagging wife even more.
It's best to be smart and avoid confrontation when it comes to family as it gets too personal, best way is through damage control, just slowly reduce the frequency of the gatherings and avoid joining, why create a massive family feud over an occasional dinner bill? It's not like you are financially supporting them aswell. None of the family members will suddenly respect you for standing up for yourself and being confrontation, instead they will all think you are being disrespectful through such actions.
Yes the family members are greedy pricks, but at the end of the day, they are still family and you have to be smart about how you handle things, instead of going in all guns blazing.
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"So, rather than keeping the dialogue going, why don't you make the next post what steps you have taken to address this issue, and the results thereof."
The audacity to post the above command. Why don't you get a life instead of posing something so insulting?
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Why is that suggestion insulting ?? Seems perfectly reasonable and rational since you've been asking others opinions on this website for the past 3 weeks for suggestions on how to resolve your problem. Now that sufficient different options have been offered to you, do you plan on actually taking action based on any of the advice given, or just continuing whining about the problem but doing nothing to change it ? If it's your decision to do the latter, then stop wasting everyone else's time and effort by giving you suggestions. This is not a therapy session, either act on the Advices given, or stop asking for advice !!
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maxis
10 yrs ago
Whilst support is offered, as said above this is not a therapy support service. Neither is it a soap opera.
No one is insulting anyone.
Different opinions and advice, as requested, have been provided.
You have received plenty of differnent advice, and now is the time you get off your computer and get and do something about it.
So, you accept you are a disrespected soft touch, or you take action of some sort (and
again you have enough views and suggestions to cobble together an action plan.)
If review other threads, you will see it.is customary that the OP comes back with feedback on what they did and the results thereof.
Regarding this reply ". And I don't need anyone here commanding me to do anything. Your input is appreciated but your orders are rejected", now your showing the kind of assertiveness (although clearly misdirected) which if harnessed constructivly, could really go a long way if utilised on your in-laws.
So, lets not hear any more on this thread until you have taken some steps yourself , rather than circle around without doing anything.
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maxis
10 yrs ago
Enough prevarication - time for action now.
Understandably you are nervous, but will feel great once you retake contol of your life and self esteem. Everyone is supporting you and behind you, as long as you act you have not failed. Inaction will be failure.
Again, let's not hear any more on this thread until you have taken some steps yourself , rather than circle around without doing anything.
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maxis
10 yrs ago
Let's keep to the forum rules, and keep things constructive, thank you.
And channel the energy at your problem for which you have sought advice, and received a variety of comments and suggestions.
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BTW learn not to invade ones personal space. Again advice appreciated but your commands and trying to run the show on this board goes to far. You don't need the last word on everything. Respect other people's space!!!
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maxis
10 yrs ago
Please learn to respect that many have kindly offered differing comments and suggestions, as you have requested.
As to whether you decide to do anything about your plight that you have presented, is solely up to you.
You are obviously upset about the position you have been placed in, and are prepard to at least by computer, to lash out.
Try and redirect your frustration and your relatives, stop them running the show on your wallet, and have the last word on them as to whether you remain their door mat or not.
Again, let's not hear any more on this thread until you have taken some steps yourself , rather than circle around without doing anything.
NOTE:~ seems that several of your posts over the past couple of days have been removed, the reasons of which should be self evident to you and others. Again, best of wishes in your endevours.
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I am wondering if the OP is just making all this up anyway.
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