Ok, I have heard many stories about hostess bars in China and that when men go in, they can either have a hostess assigned to them or choose the girls on their own. The girls light their cigarettes and play games with them, etc. I am curious about these places and want to ask some brave men to step forward and share their stories of what actually happens in these place? How a typical night can look like...I know many other women are also curious too! Is it true that they are just a front for prostitution...or is there something more?
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I've been in many of these places in China - probably over 100 times in the last few years. Simple, you choose the size of room and are then taken there. Various Mama-sans come in with a line of girls and the guys pick a girl as their companion. If they don't like the girls in the first batch then another batch come in. Lot's of drinking and drinking games usually over dice. The girls are there to also top up your glass all of the time so more beer flows.
Not all the girls are prostitutes, but of course some are and I've seen guys disappear upstairs for a while with the girl of their choice. What amazes some of my colleagues is that I never pick a girl and certainly would not even think of anything else. The first few times I went to these places I found it mildly amusing but with time it becomes extremely tedious.
So some of these places are a front for prostitution, some are not. It depends what place you are in, etc. Some men enjoy going to these places, others do not. It's not my thing but sometimes business takes me to these places. Given a choice I would not bother!
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glowingesperasza, if you are really that interested, why don't you go to see yourself and then report back to us here? ;-)
women in b-2-b sales in china go to these places regularly as it's part of the china sales process to entertain your clients. usually starts with dinner and lots of beer, then move to a ktv in a '5* hotel'. sing karaoke, girls helping to fill up drinks, etc.
nothing seedy up till that point - except that i usually don't like the environment and would prefer a regular pub if available at all.
from that point onwards you usually have a choice to select a girl if you like (either they come into the room for presentation as described above or you go outside to the 'chosing area' depending how seedy the place is), then you sing more, drink more, chat, etc.
I have not experienced nor has any friend or colleague ever experienced any nakedness or PDA (e.g. kissing, massage, etc.) up to this point.
then the host will usually say that 'all is included' and it's up the guy to do what he likes (e.g. nothing, everything or something in between) but that would be outside of the KTV room.
I had one or two such experiences myself (in China and other SE-Asian countries), but most of the 'story' i know from my Chinese wife who used to do b-2-b sales with SOEs in China.
last but not least, in very seldom cases i was told that they even have guys for selection for the business ladies :)
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btw, i once met a hotel management person in China and he told me that most Chinese hotels make between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total hotel revenue from the KTV/Massage area...
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kalia
15 yrs ago
Ann Dives,
Do you mean Bottoms Up? I used to go there alot way back when, as a couple of my friends were working there occasionally. They were western backpackers and used to be topless and sit in the middle of a round bar but they certainly never went home with guys, although there were certainly girls that did. Same goes for B Boss and China City, before the handover these places were filled with western backpackers dressed up nicely, talking, dancing and singing karaoke but if i remember correctly, they used to separate the girls who do and the girls that don't!
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I appreciate all the views. i find it fascinating and perhaps I will go in and have a look for myself. Somehow I thought women were not welcome!!! I guess i like what sad sack was saying though. If you just wanted a beer with your mates you would just go to a pub:) very true
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If there were pubs. There are many areas in China where there are no pubs or bars at all.
Seems that there are some people who have no self control and don't understand others who do. Just because some of us have gone to these places does not mean that we participate in activities that others expect. I'm happy with that. Others with no self control will of course accuse others of lying but all that means is we can hold our heads higher knowing exactly what the truth is.
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I have to agree with you evildeeds, well put:)
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'Don't forget that the 'nightclub in China' experience is part of doing business there. It is a mechanism that helps to conclude deals that make money for both parties.'
SUCH BS.. i have been in china for four years now, along with hubby, we run two successful businesses, deal with a LOT of chinese suppliers all without ever having to participate in this part of mechanism.
Ofcourse we do know that there are expats who willingly go for this kind of thing and their whole excuse is like that of Ann dives above.
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kali this is interesting and maybe there are different type of businesses. can i ask whether you deal with government officials or SOEs as major suppliers or customers in your two businesses?
my personal experience as far as it goes is that dinner/KTV sessions are more prevalent with the two listed above and less with export oriented or hk owned businesses
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I feel sorry for some of the women who are posting on here - so much anger, hate and suspicion.
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Re message from the goddess kali: you've answered your own question - if all your meetings with suppliers include you and your husband then of course they will not invite you to a karaoke parlour !!!!!
Just don't lecture me that it is BS to say that sometimes men have to go with business contacts to nurture the relationship, when it quite clearly is "expected" of you. I have done so, and there is no problem at all if you don't want to "participate", no-one is holding a gun to your head.
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sorry billybats and observer but i have to disagree with you: my chinese wife was a sales SVP in china and she has done numerous trip to KTVs for 'business meetings'. i have to say though that her clients were usually SOEs or government officials, which might be a category on its own
and of course it was not the KTVs where you pick a girl from the selection when you enter but more the ones where girls come and help serving, etc. (i have described that in my post above).
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cookie09: you have made the key point, which is that your wife was invited to "non exotic" establishments !
My experience is that when I am alone on the mainland, I am invited to choose a girl on the basis that since my wife is not with me, then "out of sight = out of mind" ! But like I said, I've never felt or experienced the slightest pressure to participate. When I am with my wife (she is from HK and we work in the same company), then these invitations dry up !!
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sicn
15 yrs ago
The host party is just offering "what you want". If you are a couple without asking for "the service", they guess it is better not to offer since they think it might offend your wife. If you are by yourself (male), there is no need to say anything since everyone knows "what you want".
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Ann Dives: agree totally with your last comment; I always feel that they are delighted to go there and my presence gives the outing legitimacy !! That is also why there is no pressure on you to take part or not once you are there.
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all meetings dont involve both hubby and me, we often meet suppliers on our own, and hubby does get invited to the evening out, buf if he politely declines or says lets meet for lunch instead he's not pressured into the supposingly obligatory enterntainment.
I do know it's rampant in the export field too, as friends have complained about their husbands going out on these evenings claiming as many of the posters above that it is 'de rigeur'.
And sure suppliers (HKese, taiwanese, mainlanders) enjoy providing and part taking in this whole entertainment : gives them a good reason and ann dives says legitimacy.
my point is only that you can say no. but then again most probably most men dont want to say no.
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I met the vice mayor of some place across the border in a business context. He asked us to visit his town twice - once with our wives, and another time by ourselves. I've heard all the stories, and I am sure he was going to line up the usual collection of pot bellied girls with bad breath who pick their nose in public and smoke, and don't know what to do in bed. Very few men will admit it because it's not macho to do so, but frankly this kind of thing is over rated. We never went.
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glowingesperasza, you don't have to go as far as China to have a look at what happens.
YOu actually don't have to go much further than Happy Valley..
In CHina I have noticed that nothing happens in the KTV, whereas here I ve seen things happen inside ...
I am not a big fan of these places but know that whenever I m taken out as a client by chinese with chinese colleagues we always end up in these places. I think I ll agree with most who say this is how business is done in the area.
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I only read a few of the replies - mostly from stupid men. If you want the real truth, go with some friends to BBoss in TsimShaTsui - a bit pricey but you will see the true picture - it is all about entertainment and sex. Not sleazy sex - these are working girls with class and they make a whole lot more money than most business staff. In Asia, the girls are the smart part of the population - the men are all greedy and stupid "wannabe" users of people. The girls support families and are very proper and well mannered. Sex is consentual - $1200 rmb for the night in China. No improper sex is allowed - no kissing is allowed. If any girls want to see first hand - just go and see for yourself. There are clubs in every city - China South best in HouJie or Xintang (Sun City). Nothing shameful - just good clean fun with perks.
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Tistleel88 > The women in this business are invariably lazy and unprincipled; it's much easier than working in a factory, or a 9-6 office job, and as long as you don't mind being a whore, it's easy money. They are not coerced into this profession, rather they would think "Heck, most women sleep with someone, why not make big money from it ?" or "most women get money from the a man, what's the difference" Perhaps that's why they think they're smart.
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Well, CaptDave, you are seriously misinformed. I have met many of the girls over the last 15 years and they are not whores. Whores are the wives who stupidly use their husband's money and parade their a** through the malls with no regard for their abject humility. The working girls make a lot more money in the KTV and take far better care of themselves than any "women" that you may encounter in obvious low grade sleazy places. The trouble with many foreigners is their lack of respect for women. You seem to be one of those...too bad - you have missed a really good boat.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Tisteel88, I wonder what you do for a living.
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Ahhh i have been going through the thread for long..nw my curiosity has reachd the peak..wanna find out myself.. ;-)
so you 'Knowledgable' Guys..do these 'nightclubs' are only good for groups? Can't a single person go there and check out the place! and yeh do we have these 'nightclubs' or hostess bars here in HK?
Cheers
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vzbtech, if the main point is drinking and socializing, why would you go alone? do you go to LKF alone? (yes some people do, but it's a small minority I would think).
and yes these bars do exist in HK too - no difference to China
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Cookie's question puts me in mind of my first China KTV experience five years ago when I first visited China. I came on an exploratory business trip with a Chinese friend (female - ex gf) who was my guide and interpreter. Somewhat naively, I had imagined Chinese women to be shy, demure and modestly dressed. Imagine my surprise when, on my first night at the 5* hotel in Dallian, I was told what was on offer in the hotel spa. Later, in Shenzhen, my friend decided to turn in early but I was up for some lively music. The concierge pointed me in the direction of the establishment next door. Expecting some sort of bar with live band I was surprised to find nothing of the sort. Just a reception, no music, no bar, but an awful lot of exeptionally pretty girls sitting around. A woman approached me and, realising that I was a karaoke virgin and explained that she would hire me a room at a good price and, if I wanted a "nice girl" to join me to sing, that could be arranged. Never one to turn down the company of a pretty girl, I said "sure". And so it went: we sang together,drank together and laughed together. Then this girl's equally attractive friend joined us. I thought: "there truly is a God!" Then it came to bedtime. The girls helpfully offered to escort me back to my hotel (so polite, I thought). We walked arm-in- arm to my hotel and, at the door, I shook their hands, said thankyou for their delightful company (it was lost on them, of course, because we didn't speak each others' language) and I disappeared up to my room. They walked away with rather bemused expressions on their faces The next day, my friend asked what I had done the night before. She was mortified, and told me that I had been consorting with hookers and forbade me ever to go to KTV on my own again. But we went together and with her friends and had a great time. So, yes, Cookie, one can go alone and have good fun (clean or otherwise).
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cookies09, No the main point is not drinking and socializing but to experience the diffrence..have never been to such places.
And yeh i do go alone aloways to LKF and Macau..(part of Minority ;-) hehhehe
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Reply to sicn..
I am an American working here for many years. What do I do for a living ? Not important, but I have a very high level of income and can enjoy all of the niceties that China has to offer. I respect women and that is the whole key. People sense when you are a dope and treat you as such. As far as other comments here - do not go into the bars by yourself - not a good idea, as half of the girls have boy friends. You have to be able to "read" your drinking companions - personality wins over beauty. Learn to relax and enjoy yourself, as you must like yourself first to truly enjoy others.
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Tisteel88, good POV...for me i have been frequenting LKF like places alone for years now..in few asian countries..so far no trouble.. wht you wanna indicate by this..how this makes any diffrence?
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Tisteel88 I am confused, are you talking about your wife or your dad's wife when you said "Whores are the wives who stupidly use their husband's money and parade their a** through the malls with no regard for their abject humility?"
How can you say you have a high regard for women and make a statement like that?
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Hello sicn,
You are obviously a Euro. The whore comment was aimed at those who deserve the connotation, not the hardworking home Moms. You are the one with issues - accept it and move on.
To vzbtech: the only time trouble occurs is with boyfriends of the girls. Best to clear the air right away by asking a girl friend of your companion. Their girl friends are the first to spill the beans. I have had friends who encountered trouble - mostly in smaller cities. The Police in larger cities keep the problems to a minimum.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
A "working girl" can use a boyfriend as a cover to her family. The
'boy friend" can also pick her up in the middle of the night or save her from an abusive client. Some girls learn that the more fuss their boyfriends can cause gets more money from the clients. It's a business. So next time when you are in the middle of action with your "working girl", her boy friend busts into your hotel room and demands for emotional damage compensation, just laugh.
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People go to ktv to be entertained. if they want a prostitute, there are more suitable joints for it.
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I have been to KTV in Shangahi, for a while quite regularly.
Price varies considerably. There are some places where the "expected tip" is 100 RMB, but they are rather seedy. Other places will go much higher. one place we attend regularly, they have different floors the higher floors are more expensive, they have better waitresses and you see better girls (expedted tip 400 RMB). The Mamasan will continue to bring girls untill you find one to your liking. If you want to take one "home" you tell mamasan, she knows which are ther "hookers"
Sometimes if you choose a girl and she will tell you, "no go home"
Because I do not speach Chinese I have a greater problem , so I ask upfront for gilrs that can speak some English.
Some men get bombed and will act like idiots and will try to molest the girls in the room, other guys will treat them like ladies and just have fun gambling, singing dancing, drinking. Some KTVs have different methods of attracting clients. There is one where he girls do a strip tease every hour...music is piped in to all rooms. One place has girles topless. One dresses tall girls in special costumes and identifies them as models who charge extra tips.
Clubs try to do different things to attract neqw clientel .
The rokm charge provides fresh fruit and a botle of booze, after the first, you are paying exorbitant prices for regular booze./
Choose your "pioson" and pay the prioce
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Ed
15 yrs ago
Inflamatory comments have been removed from this thread.
The question is What Really Goes on at Hostess Bars. Not do you frequent Hostess Bars....
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Yah. This topics are really interesting. Usually men talks about this matter, but we ladies as well get interested. I think this kind of business has been spread all over anywhere, in any places, its just depends on how they perform it or how do they do the service. Especially the economy has been down, people has to do things even they are not willing in order to survive.
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There was an enormous amount of prostitution in Hong Kong in the aftermath of 1949, and the ensuing huge migration from China. As far as I can gather, many struggling families expected the oldest daughter to sell herself to raise money for the education of the younger children, who in turn were expected to look after their oldest sister when they left school and got jobs.
Prostitution is an economic matter, not an ethical one - although men who use the services of prostitutes are treading in ethically and morally dangerous waters. And medically dangerous, of course, as well.
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Wilks
15 yrs ago
Drinking at KTV is part of business in china, Taiwan, Japan and most other S.E Asian Nations. Guanxi is extremely important for business in china and Guanxi is built during drinking. Why is it important? Good Guanxi makes your products come out much quicker better quality, have less problems, problems are quickly fixed, your prices are raised less often. This Guanxi, needs to be frequently reinforced.
The chinese see drinking as a way of getting to know the other person, They see semi drunk person are at their weakest most defenseless state of mentality, thus they are at the truest form
KTV are not only frequented by men, but also by women, and normal working boys / girls and normal groups of friends, however to their standards, a night at such a night club would be quite expensive. Since they are all private rooms, they are not disturbed by other noises, and other people., and competitors will not see their suppliers and customers.
As mentioned in earlier posts, there are a range of services offered, however depending on which cities, and which KTV you go to in China, many of the girls strictly only sit and drink, and play drinking games. You will find that over 90% of the mainlanders will not requests services after the drinking session. When you walk into other occupied rooms, you often see men only with no hostesses.
Many of these KTVs in the major cities also have Male Prostitutes for the women.
There are many stories behind these 'hostesses' some are genuinely true, some are BS.
If you are with your husbands, out of respect to those who do not understand the Culture, often the manager will ask beforehand if you need any hostesses to drink.
I think its important for the women to know how it operates. but at the end.. it all comes down to the strength of the relationship between you and your partners trust and honesty. Blame should not be placed on these establishments, nor on these girls. it is 100% responsibility of your partner.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Hostess bar and KTV ARE seedy places that breed corruption and prostitution no matter how some people here try to justifying themselves frequent those places. It is bad business practice and bad for the men’s family if they end up “have to” to for business. I have a married friend is building a business in Mainland. Since it is the way business done there, he had to arranged it to please the clients. He usually would send his subordinates to accompany them since he doesn’t like places like that. But some married clients would pull him into the dirty water for not wanting to feel the guilt alone. Then since my friend had to go once a while, his wife then decided to go to the other kind of the bar where men please the women to get even. It is a bad cycle. I think it is time to break it and start to clean up.
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Come on now. The KTV girl situation is not too different from those one may find in seedy hair saloons, saunas, or high-end bars in China. For that matter, how is it different from the bars in Wanchai and Lan Kwai Fong or the ubiquitous one-floor-one girls in HK? If one stands around Central, Wanchai or Causeway Bay during lunch hours on any work day, one is bound to see some blatant display of sexuality for the office ladies. The issue is that, regardless of where one is, sexual opportunities are abundant. It all boils down to one's moral standing and faith/responsibility with one's spouse.
Now back to the KTV scenario, a participant is never forced to take on a hostess, unless avoiding the possibility of offending the host can be considered an involuntary act. Therefore, short of that possibility, one is free to choose between having a girl or not. Even then, there is no garantee that the pair would end up in sexual intercourse, unless the participant is willing to do so at an acceptable expense. The expense is not limited only to the price for the sex, but also the host's view on the participant. My sense is that when doing business anywhere in the world, it is best NOT to have any evidence come back and bite me in the butt. As a result, unless I am the host, I resist the opportunity of going to KTV, period!!!
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There is another side to KTV that seems to have been forgotten.
I have been at several work functions where all staff go to KTV after dinner and as a team building exercise. The businesses were a bank, a training centre, and a sales office.
When studying Chinese in Shanghai they also tooks us to KTV at the end of the course.
When visiting my wifes hometown our hosts also took us to KTV as a group after dinner. This happened on two occassions. Not about prostitution.
I also assume that families do this, as many home entertainment systems are also Karaoke compatible. This implies families like Karaoke and probably also frequent KTV.
So for my 2 cents:
Yes there are often prostitutes in the building. Not always used.
No, it is not just a front for sex. And sex may not be primary purpose of KTV, even if it is a big money earner.
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sicn
15 yrs ago
Reply to Tigerbay,
There are some people like me, if I am bringing my family or some good friends to sing and have fun in a private KTV room, I would not want to be approached by Mamasan or see or hear certain actions from next door. If I would want to entertain my clients with some nice drinks in a bar, I would not want them to be liaisoned by some hangaround young girls. If I want to get a good massage just on my back, I would not like to lay on the same massage table that just has an “extra service” performed at. I just want guaranteed clean places to entertain, that’s all.
But in China, there are no separation or clear differenes in between theose places. Maybe this way is good for some clietns who like to have dirty fun but not want the guilt or shame to disappear into these maybe-or-not places. But on the other hand, who knows how much business they have lost from people like me who would rather not go at all or pay a lot more to just not mingle with the mud.
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my hongkong friend husbands always go to these such a place with working and buss partner, but SHE always JOIN. it is protitute, and its an entertaining culture for boss. unfortunately...
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hahah very interesting thread.
What goes on behind the closed doors of a ktv... well all I can say is many different things can happen, regardless of whether the ktv is in Shanghai, Beijing, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dong Guan or other parts of China..
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surprising how innocent all these people asking the questions are
surely they must know what goes on, and it wouldn't take 30 seconds to accurately guess what goes on. if you don't know, you could ask any guy that you met in a bar in LKF or Wanchai and nearly all of them would be able to tell you
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in SZ, a KTV is only for singing = like a karaoke box in HK - if the place has 'friends' for hire they usually have some name like Club Delite or something equally dodgy
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For the record, I don't want to condone the practice. Also for the record, I do not "partake".
Having said that, when prostitutes practice proper condom use, as is generally the case in East Asia, the risk of STD is actually lower than in the general population. Frankly, the risk is extremely low, to the point of being insignificant, if the "john" is just "normally" careful.
The risk of STD is way higher among drug-using pimped out human trafficking victims in Europe. STD spread is way lower in countries with legal prostitution like Germany or The Netherlands.
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as a husband (ex) and father, i am ashamed to admit that KTVs and Massage Parlors (Saunas) are very real and very accessible here in HK (and surrounding Macau, China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, SE Asia). Most men have been at least once, and many (myself included) have been many more times than they would care to admit.
Bachelor parties, client drinks, a round of golf, a random boys' night out...all too often end up in either one or both of these establishments, and despite the best intentions, a night out at these establishments never ends innocently. Without exception i have seen friends, acquaintances, business associates, colleagues, clients, expats, locals, old, young, single, married, fathers...all cross the line of what would be considered acceptable in the face of their respective gfs, parents, wives, children, etc.
a night at a KTV starts with beer, whiskey and singing, and even with the tamest of friends, ends at least at first base - quite often at third (for those not familiar with baseball: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=third+base) (I've even been to one in Taiwan where the evening ends with a group tug - everyone sitting in the same room!). The option for a home run is also always available for an additional charge.
if you're drunk and tired, or after long day of golf up in China, chances are you will find you and your company ending the day/night at the local sauna (rub n tug). While a night at a KTV could start off with innocent intentions (it never ends that way), there's no pretense of such when visiting a RnT. There's only one reason to visit a RnT. As the name suggests, it starts off with a rub (normal massage) and ends with at least a tug (you are offered your choice of release with varying price differences).
wives and gfs: don't be naive. i know you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, to believe that he doesn't participate and that he has more restraint. But I guarantee you, if he's been to one of these places, he's gone to at least first base, and most likely further.
guys: i urge you to think twice the next time you go and "have some fun". While it is extremely prevalent, and "accepted" in Asia, it doesn't make it right, it's still cheating, it's still deceitful and more likely than not, you will lose your loved ones if they find out. i'm sorry for what i've done, but it doesn't change the fact that i'm now single again - which sounds a lot more "fun" then it really is. if my ex is reading this...too little, too late, but i'm sorry.
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There was a very lurid and detailed description of what happens in KTV and Sauna on this site yesterday. I cannot find it now; I suspect the post has been deleted by the editor because the post was semi pornographic.
I doubt such posts cause anyone to change their behaviour for better. Rather because the details were so juicy, they are more likely to encourage uninitiated men to try such things.
Any policeman will tell you it's motive & opportunity : These places provide the opportunity. The Question every woman with a straying husband needs to ask is what is his motive for doing this ? What is he not getting in the marriage that he needs to find outside ?
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Not only at hostess bars, KTV or Sauna ...
Ladies ... if you know what China is, you won't let your husband go there alone. It's still a jungle out there. Read this if you still cannot understand what a woman in China will do for having a lazy life.
‘I Like Being A Kept Mistress, My Life Right Now Is Great!’
to see the real pictures, click here:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2008/stories/i-like-being-a-kept-mistress-my-life-right-now-is-great.html
Everybody says that it is a bad thing to be a kept mistress. What is so bad about it? Let me tell you about all the good things from my personal experience…
... Once I got accepted by university and went to the big city, I found out how trivial I was. ...
... I was able to meet many social bigwigs at the coffee shop, and it was there that I met my current husband. He is a senior government official. He has a wife and kids at home, but I didn’t care. He knew that I was working part-time so he was particularly nice to me. Eventually, I quit my job to be with him.
During the week, I stay at the school dormitory. On weekends, I am usually with my husband. He comes to pick me up every Saturday afternoon in his car. Many other female students are in the same situation like me. Therefore, on Saturday afternoons, there is a row of upscale sedans waiting outside the university entrance to pick us up. By this time, nobody thinks that this is anything unusual!
Since I found this husband, I have never had to worry about livelihood. I completed my studies successfully. So, let me tell you what I have now.
(1) Money. My husband got me a bank card under my own name. There are 5 million RMB in liquid fund in that account. There is also more than one hundred thousand RMB cash at home. This is basically my spending money.
(2) House. My husband bought a new house under my name with four rooms and two living rooms in an upscale neighborhood. There is a villa outside the city. On weekends, I stay there with my husband because the view is gorgeous.
(3) Car. This year, my husband bought me a Peugeot 206 for transportation. I just got my license this year because I don’t like to ride in congested public buses.
(4) Family. My family is building a new house for my brother who is getting married. I told my husband and he gave me 300,000 RMB without me asking and that was enough to build a house back home. I am sending 3,000 RMB a month back to the my parents.
(5) Family life. My husband loves me. He treats me well. I love my husband a lot too. My husband says that we will have a child of my own some day and the three of us will live happily together.
I am graduating this year. But I do not want to get a job, because work is tiring and there is no freedom. I want to do what I want. Therefore, I have decided to open my own clothing store. The place is under decoration and it will probably open in August. I am very satisfied with my life right now. If you have any views and opinions about my life, you are welcome to offer them!!!
She knew well the guy had a wife and kids back home but she doesn't care, as long as she gets what she wants: a husband, house, plenty of money to show off to her parents and relative in the village. That's China after Mao.
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CaptDave, it's ignorant of you to imply that the motive must be something he's not getting in the marriage. The motive could be unrelated to their home-life and as simple as peer pressure (all their friends decide as a group to do it) and they are too spineless to say "no". If he's not getting something he needs at home, he should have the guts to talk to his wife first.
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YoGrace: I agree, men should speak out what they want from their wives... some do, but a lot of them don't. But even if the man does voice out what he wants, his wife might ignore his need. Communication is a prerequisite, but not the solution for a happy marriage.
If you think "My husband goes to KTV/Sauna - due to peer pressure" you are wrong. Birds of a feather flock together : Your husband has selected buddies who like to do such things because they have this in common. If he is really unwilling he will find a new set of buddies who don't.
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almost all the men in this planet and depending on the countries they do more often or less but they do. cannot stop that. not at a young age though, usually it happens after a few years of marriage and that doesn't mean something is wrong with the relationship, one doesn't exclude the other. some of you who are not yet familiar with this concept, you should learn fast, love and sex are completely two different matters and most men (and nowadays, women also) want to have both.
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I reckon there are a few folks who have said something pretty spot on. First of - lustinhk, thanks for sharing, that was soul baring and really refreshing to see an honest and remorseful post like yours. As you said, single isnt as glamorous as it sounds. Not when you lose the kids and life you once loved and felt was so real.
CaptDave, I know a lot of women get all "what are you blaming women for" about comments such as yours, but I have to agree to some extent with what you are saying. I was discussing this with a friend and even he said, if you are going to go hang out with friends or colleagues, picking a KTV or deciding to stick around for the whole night, thats kinda signing up for the whole 9 yards. And yep, I think if there was nothing to worry about in your marriage, then you would be able to rest assured your man is not out there getting sucked off by some eastern european hooker, but yeah...how many folks in marriages that have gone some distance are still maintaining their lawns like they did early doors, right?
As rititt said, once a few years have gone by, the new sometimes can be appealing. It takes experience in such matters to know 1st hand that the new isn't always better, and as lustinhk said, it can land you alone.
I have known friends who avoid the 9 yards by doing the smart thing and doing a runner. I've done it myself. You say you are going to take a piss and you walk out the door. You usually get a text 30mins later when someone notices you arent back, thats if they even notice, and you say, sorry mate, at home. Enjoy!
Doesn't take a degree in rocket science to come up with that plan. You don't have to go down the "My mates made me" rub and tug.
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rittit and CaptDave - while I agree sex and love are two different matters, don't you think you should be honest to the ones you love? Cheating isn't just about having sex elsewhere -- it's that they are lying to loved ones.
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that's why love and sex are two different things. i can have sex with another woman and still love my wife, so why tell her? to make her furious and wanting to divorce because she can't understand that love and sex are two different things?
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rittit - that's a selfish attitude. You lie to get what you want no matter who you potentially hurt - even a loved one? Would it be okay for a girl with AIDS to tell you she's clean because she wants to sleep with you? You might not get AIDS (i.e. your wife may not find out) but the possibility of someone getting hurt is there. .
Give your wife the respect she deserves and tell her the truth. See if you're "worth it" for her to stay with you despite your need for sex with prostitutes. My gut says you don't think she'll agree your pros outweigh your cons - hence the lies.
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i'm not talking about me, it was just an illustration.
i won't believe anyone without a bloodtest so condom is a must. at the end, everyone will be happy: the prostitute will get her money, i got my sex and the wife will not know anything and will be happy.
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Ok, as for the "love and sex are two different things" argument, I am not sure I can follow you down that yellow brick road.
If you love your partner and you make each other happy, unless you two have a mutual agreement to go root around behind each others backs, you fukkin around is still you fukkin around. Sorry. There ain't no "this is the gray area" about it.
As lustinhk says, you can tell yourself what you like to help you sleep better at night, but it doesnt change the fact that you are lying to the one person you "supposedly" love. Condom claim to your hearts content you could still end up with STDs and then will have no one to blame but yourself, but in the mean time you end up dicking over the innocent parties too.
I have no sympathy or kind word for people who go screwing around on their wives or husbands and have the gall to say "but I love her/him even if I show no respect for that" and somehow that should be enough. Obviously if you think love and sex are so mutually exclusive then what you have is simply something you mistake for love, you don't really have what you think you do...and so the denial is just layer upon layer.
I see it all the time, good marriages, good relationships, they are NOT the norm. The norm is misery, lies, dissatisfaction, words unsaid, and denial...denial...denial.
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There have been numerous books on why men cheat, and how to prevent it. One or two books were even written by former prostitutes who claimed expertise because most of their clients were married men. Plenty of advice is available for women who really care about keeping their man loyal.
For the men who go down the path of sleaze to replace what is missing in their marriage, it's a slow descent into debauchery. No matter they can justify it to themselves, a man has to ask himself if he's really proud of the things he did should they come to the light of day ?
I agree with Justin Credible - A smart guy will do a runner.
It also needs to be said that a lot of married women cheat. Sure the husband may be a louse, but that does not give his wife an excuse to cheat.
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Lol to Amestris, either you are very tongue in cheek with that comment or completely naive.
CaptDave, I have seen colleagues and friends, women with good husbands, some would call them almost "too nice" and these guys end up with the women who say they "just want a girls night out" and who sleep around with younger men they pick up in night clubs.
Sometimes women too cheat, and the husband doesn't have to be a louse, the woman just has to have no respect for how good she has it.
This is the case in most situations where people cheat, its coz they think they can get away with it and because deep down, there is respect lost, for self and for the good thing they've got.
Its why so many are out there crying their eyes out and begging to be forgiven when they DO get caught. Coz they never meant to get caught...and its not until they lose it all that they repent and go, what was I thinking? Well, obviously not a lot. Lol.
A smart guy, a smart gal...a smart anyone...will KNOW the value of what they have and will treasure being that gifted. Its only a dumbass that is willing to risk everything for what, in the end, is worth nothing.
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Justin Credible - WELL SAID! Agree that people should value themselves, their partners and their families and show respect for all of the above by being honest and not cheating. Cheating is only temporary gratification and they risk hurting the person they love and losing a future with their families.
Amestris, both men and women cheat, although looking at supply (based on demand) definitely less women cheat on their husbands.
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True Story - I knew someone who was married, with two super cute and wonderful kids, he had a Korean wife, and somewhere along the way this guy went and cheated on his wife. Well, wife found out and she was so angry and hurt she did everything she could (and pretty much achieved her aims) to ensure that her kids saw very little of their father AND she reamed him financially.
Dude was all, woe is me, and boo hoo, I miss my kids. But you know what? I ain't saying that the wife is right for doing something like fighting for (and winning) sole custody and dicking over her husband, but there is a lesson in this, to never underestimate how much you hurt someone with thoughtlessness and to what extent they will go to in order to pay that shizz back!
Guy lost his family and all for what? Do I feel sorry for him? Sure...but what was he thinking??? As I said, not a lot. Its not until you get busted and you find yourself scratchin your a** to find two pennies to put together, its only then that you figure out what the right thing to do would have been?
Right? If you don't want to get divorced, don't get married. Lol. If you don't want to lose your family, don't have one. But if you do go ahead and make the choice to get married, to have a family, then do the right thing and not screw that up.
It takes a real big person to be able to "do the right thing" for the kids once divorce comes along...and let me tell you, from experience, many parents aren't being the bigger person and many kids are getting screwed over because of their parents mistakes. Its sad but true.
Ah well...anyway, thats a story for another day. Its all just sad, is all. Life, it doesn't need to be hard, its just sometimes people make it so.
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I live by a few simple maxims:
1) Do/avoid things that make you (and your children) proud of who you are
2) Acknowledge your own weaknesses and don't put yourself in tempting situations
3) To decide whether you are doing something that is morally defensible, just ask yourself whether you are willing to openly disclose your actions to your spouse.
4) Don't cheat. After the first time, it will only become easier to cheat.
5) Treat others (especially your spouse) as you would wish others to treat you.
These are my own rules for living and they might not apply to everyone's moral framework.
Obviously, life is never so simple, especially if marriages deteriorate over time and needs are not fulfilled. However, I view these as basic rules of common sense that keep me out of trouble...
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