Posted by
namaste
17 yrs ago
My son is attending a local school, in Form 2, the equivalent of year 9 (UK) or Grade 8 (US). He's only been there for a few months and today brought home a test with such questions as: Which behavior is common among fans of pop stars or bands in HK? Pop stars who are very popular among teenagers are .....(followed by multiple choice options). Why some people worship pop idols in an unreasonable and crazy way? Then, it goes on the do a case study regarding Edison Chen! In the essay section, a question asks, "What is peer pressure?" My son wrote, "when someone tries to force you to do something you don't want to do" and he got no points for it. I am really appauled at the standard of education.
Funny enough, the local people that I know tell me the local schools are so much more difficult than the international ones. Yet, it seems that when it isn't about rote learning, it's about pop culture? Keep in mind, there are 46 students in his class and they have to use a PA system to lecture (that's the only teaching approach). How much can one really learn in that environment?
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That certainly sounds appalling. How about other subjects? BTW which subject is this? And what was teh correct answer to "peer pressure"?
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Dare I say the correct answer to peer pressure was "The way society works smoothly and efficiently."? Local schools here are horrible, for the most part. Teachers are teaching in subjects they aren't qualified to teach, in MANY cases. Classes are so overcrowded that teachers can't give individual help if they want to and are able to identify the need. The language policy is confused and seems to change every third year, to the detriment of students and teachers. Teacher workload is appalling, although the pay is competitive. Teacher training in HK is a disaster. I write this as a University lecturer who not only sees the 'best' of the graduates regularly, but who also sees our graduates go take jobs they are unqualified for. It is, I believe, the result of politicians and bureaucrats playing games with education. And I don't see any likelihood of improvement. Private school is the only way to go if you can't get into one of the top banded schools.
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I also work for a University in HK and find that the students who graduate from the local schools are often quite immature, academically and developmentally, compared to overseas University students.
One day, my son's school rang me to tell me that he as sick and had been vomiting. I literally couldn't understand their English and that was the first eye opener for me of what my son has to sit through daily. He then recorded the voice of his math teacher for me on his mobile. The ONLY word I could understand was "OK-La".
X-pat guy - the subject of the test if Liberal Studies, possibly the only course in the school that comes close to Humanities.
I have a few English students, who attend local schools, that I tutor weekly and their English is a bit ahead of their coursework. So, when they have tests if their answers aren't cookie cutter answer that is recorded on the answer sheet, they will get marked wrong - 0 points! When I teach them, I also have to teach them how to get high marks on their exams. For example, the local English curriculum teaches kids to say something like, "I'm going to eat THE dinner". So, I tell them that on their test, they need to say THE dinner, THE lunch, THE breakfast and then I tell them that in fact, it is incorrect and we don't speak that way. So, they have their text book HK English and then they have what is really used in the world. Sigh.
Funny enough, I teach a couple of secondary English students who truly believe that only the worst of HK students go overseas for University b/c they can't get into tertiary education here. I find this amusing when the University students here show up late for classes and tests, and eat and talk during class.
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"X-pat guy - the subject of the test if Liberal Studies, possibly the only course in the school that comes close to Humanities. "
I see. I dare say that kids will learn everything they want about pop stars without the need for school assistance.
"Funny enough, I teach a couple of secondary English students who truly believe that only the worst of HK students go overseas for University b/c they can't get into tertiary education here. I find this amusing when the University students here show up late for classes and tests, and eat and talk during class."
To be fair, I have found this "our country is superior" belief to be quite common in any country. People have a need to believe that their country/city/culture is special and will collectively invent explanations to rationalize their belief, all without much basis in fact.
The concept of drawing conclusions from hypotheses and observations (AKA the Scientific Method) seems to be far removed from these schools. How do they expect kids to fare once they aren't spoon fed information anymore?
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As far as the teaching methods, their only approach is lecturing. They don't break into small groups for discussions, they don't interact with their teacher during the lesson or even watch videos or powerpoint. How interesting and engaging could it be?
That said, it seems that the International Schools in HK are also geared toward one type of learner, one who is very independent and motivated - especially with the IB program being instituted in nearly every school and streaming special needs kids into the classrooms without providing proper support for them. Learning difficulties, such as dyslexia, ADD/ADHD and Ausperger's syndrome have only recently gained educators' attention in HK. There are very few resources for these kids and they are really pricey. There is only one international school for kids with learning difficulties, but the student needs to be severely disabled to go there. This is my situation and how my son ended-up in a local school. I have rang many of the international schools who have told me that they can't admit any more special needs kids b/c they don't have the proper learning support for them, which would be "unfair" to the student. The only school that seems to have the resources and prepared staff is HKIS, which is on the other side of the world for me, being in NT.
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I think your comments are more useful by directing them to the policy makers - Education Department.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the local curriculum but it is "the way" it is delivered that has its implication. If you actually scruntize the materials taught it is of a high standard. But the system itself is too rigid, hence problems of only model answers are accepted or no marks. Consequently, rote learning, spoon feeding and memorization takes priority.
The classes are way to big. It is impossible for any teacher to give individual attention. The banding system also has a labelling effect together with EMI and CMI mode of teaching. The difference between band 1 and band 3 schools is like two different planets!
Given all this rote learning approach up to secondary level, it doesn't surprise me that undergraduates are a little immature. However, I have also noticed that children of today (especially local) lack manners, as mentioned talking, eating etc. in classes. This tend to be the result of the rapid development of Hong Kong.
Both parents often work leaving just the maid to take care of the child. Family sizes have signiciantly reduced. Now we just have one of two children in Hong Kong. You be lucky to find 3 children in a family unit. Children lack parental guidance, spoilt and have everything scheduled for them. So these prince and princess do not see anything wrong with talking and eating in classes.
The worse thing is that our tertiary instutitions allow them to do this without any penalty. If there was a demerit system for not turning up to lecturers, lateness and disruptive behaviour maybe we will see a more discipline manner.
It appears that our Education policy has not been so successful. But given the declining birth rate and shrinking student population, I think our policy makers should take this opportunity to improve the current education system. The recent announcement to reduce secondary class sizes is only the tip of the iceberg. Far more resources are required in every area of education. Hopefully, the 3-3-4 education system will be more successful.
BTW namaste , why did you let your child go to a local school?
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Hi TC,
Yes, I can vouch for the poor English on the exams. For example - one question: which of the following statements about health is correct? The answer is: there are many parts of health. Should be sth like there are many facets to health. My son, a native speaker, got that one wrong. Next question: Which of the following in NOT the characterstics of good goals? Answer options: A. specific B. convenience C. achievable D. measurable E. timely. Those miswordings can confuse even the students who thoroughly know the material.
BTW, as far as support from ESF, they have a new special needs person in the main office, who I spoke to while my son was in the process of being expelled from an ESF school. She was quite surprised when I told her that I had supplied the school with a 25 page multi-disciplinary assessment from a Children's Hospital in the states and the special needs teachers response was, "Well, we don't want to sound too Polly Anna- ish about it, but we don't think he has that problem, we think he's simply disorganized". Mind you, they were the Spanish and English teachers who carried the role of Special Needs teachers but didn't have specific special needs training. For the next two years, I did everything I could to make contact with the school and advocate for my son, without success. The Heads of Years teachers had good intentions, but were spread thin teaching classes as well as fulfilling other roles. So, my son spent a lot of time in after school detention but continued to be his happy cooperative self. His demise was being overwhelmed by independent work, specifically big projects, which is a big part of the ESF curriculum. His brain would just tune out into fuzz. During the middle of this year, I visited the school nurse to find that she had only administered meds on three of the days during the school year, even though I called her daily to ask if she had seen him. That was the wrong question, yes, she had seen him everyday. He was threatened with expulsion by the Head of Year and the matter was brought to the Head of Middle Years who supported the notion. It wasn't until the last instance, when I decided to pull him out before official expulsion, that the Head of Middle Years learned that he had a diagnosis and took meds and he was surprised. By this time, my son had been through the wringer and wanted desperately to leave.
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Namaste, I think the problem is just with the school your son is attending. My son attends a local school and I find the coursework to be of a higher standard than the UK. Since attending my son has matured and is developing into a well-balanced young adult. The one thing I agree with is the teaching of English - unless you give the text book answer, it is marked wrong! Don't know what we can do to change that!
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That's good to hear Katherine. I think my son is in a tier 3 school, which is completely conducted in English. The only class that I find to be of higher standard is maths. I need to teach my son how to give textbook answers and not to think for himself when it comes to tests. Is your son in a Tier 1 school? Is he taught about other cultures, world politics, global economy, environmental issues, world history and such. Or, do you find that the classes are insular in the way that they are focused on issues that derive from HK? My son's courses include: Liberal studies, Cantonese, English, ESL, French, Maths, Integrated Science, Visual Arts and PE. Besides PE and Visual Arts, they remain in the same classroom for the whole day. I had tried to get him into better local EMI schools, but they all said that he needed Mandarin or Cantonese for their History class and maths. I asked if he could do a correspondence course from overseas for those subjects and that didn't go over well.
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You are very lucky TC. I never met the tutors at my son's school and when I went one day to get his books out of his locker, I was told that parents weren't allowed on the campus. Were actually allowed into your son's school. My son is no longer in that school. I wish that the new special needs director was in office prior to all this b/c she was surprised that he didn't have a IEP in place and that the school hadn't provided a psychological reassessment for him, which is free through HK ed. dept. I feel that she might have been able to help him and that I had finally found someone who would acknowledge his diagnosis.
The school nurse had been reprimanded. The students had been frequenting her office daily, surfing the internet and hanging out. After she was reprimanded, a letter was sent out to all parents let them know that students were no longer allowed to hang-out with her and that they must respect her. She did see my son everyday b/c he would go to her office and get onto Youtube. When I visited her, there were 4 students lounging about and one on the internet.
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May - One parent on this forum did comment that her son is in a local secondary school and that she finds it more than adequate, so we can't say it's all schools. Actually, the local school is better for an ADD child in some regards b/c there are so many rules to follow and there are systems in place to reward and give demerits. This system at my son's school works, but not on an academic level. More on behavioral level.
I believe that no school would ever suit my child just right and that even back home, where there is so much support for kids with learning disabilities, we would face some challenges.
As far as the cookie cutter answers. I can give you to antedotes. One - I have to English students who attend a local school and the older one always gets a B on absolutely everything, even when it's 100% correct. This is b/c his handwriting is not so neat and tidy. It makes me so angry b/c he works really hard to get a high mark and then he's actually punished for his sloppy handwriting, which seems quite normal for a 10 year old boy, through the grading system. Two - a friend of mine has her native English speaking daughter in a local school here. The girl, who has quite high marks, can never get better than 85% on the ESL tests b/c she can't decipher the Chinglish in order to answer the questions. So, her mom is thrilled when she gets an 85% b/c it shows that the daughter has not learned English, but has learned how to read through the test!
Funny enough, my son says that he is happier at the local school than he was at the ESF school. However, he came home with a lot of new knowledge at the end of one day of ESF schooling, that he learned passively. Whereas, at the local school, I don't think he really ever learns anything that isn't rote, textbook style learning. It's also difficult to learn in an environment where native Chinese-speaking teachers are speaking through a microphone which then reverberates through the classroom and he is #46, and therefore, he sits at the far back of the classroom.
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aemom
17 yrs ago
"All I want, as a mother, is an education system that promotes the love of learning, a system that encourages creative thinking and a system that does not pressure our kids so much that the kids feel they have to take their own lives."
MayC:
The local school system in HK does not, and probably never will, meet your wonderful criteria! The teachers are mostly untrained. They have a three-year degree in one subject and then become teachers and do a part-time two-year certificate while teaching. It's a recipe for disaster.
Even the few who do a one-year full-time teaching cert after their 3-year degree have a very limited practium experience. There are two students teachers at my local secondary school right now doing an "8-week" teaching practium. However, unlike my teaching practicum, they only teach ONE class of students each day, some days one 35 minute lesson, other days 2 x 35 minutes. The 8 weeks includes days with no lessons such as Easter and public holidays, test week, staff meetings, swimming gala, and many other activities. The total amount of teaching time for these students teachers in the 8 weeks is about 20 hours, which I did in a 2-week practicum.
Schools also have the habit of hiring their own graduates - so no new ideas enter the school.
My children are in local primary and kindy but I've reached the end of my patience with the endless homework and tests and we are returning home this summer so that they can have all those lovely experiences you mentioned and an enjoyable childhood - with clean air too.
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Namaste, not sure which Tier the school is. I wouldn't say the classes are insular, at the moment in Liberal Studies, they are learning about McDonalds and Coca Cola and where they came to be just big companies. Aside from the core subjects, the others are taught in English or Chinese depending on the ability of the child. I've also found the teachers to be very approachable, they really take an interest in the development of the child and have a home visit once a year.
I do agree with MayC though, that HK education doesn't really promote creative thinking, its just learning to get through the next exam. Kids get used to it, my son has been to local schools all the way through and so far ok.
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Aemom -I have heard that many expat parents here have secondary school kids who can't cope with the demands of the IB programs, which most schools have recently adopted. Many families are sending their kids back to go to boarding schools while parents stay here to work. It's quite unfortunate that families are broken apart because HK lacks an education system with various approaches to learning, private or public. And you are right - this school hires its own grads as well.
Katherine - as far as teaching by ability - my son's school places students in a Class in which they are supposedly streamed according to ability. In actuality, many of the students in the top stream are just from better off families. So, if a child is poor in math, but great in languages, he/she won't get the proper support because they are placed into a stream in which they are generally suitable. On the other hand, if a child is placed in a lower-level stream class and excels at math, that's too bad b/c the opportunity would never be there for the child to reach his/her potential.
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Hi TC - My son was not at the IB level yet. However, we were told by the Head of Middle Years that there was no way that he would be able to get through it if he was already struggling in school. The school never mentioned anything about an alternative diploma program. I was told by the Head of Middle Years that if a child doesn't fit into the school, that they won't succeed and that if the child can make it work, then the "world is your oyster". BTW, that was intended to be a motivating speech for my son and all the best intentions were there. I would like to explore other options for him. Unfortunately, I can't find a school who would accept him, with his low grades and diagnosis of ADD. Also, we cannot afford the debentures for some of the better schools who might be open to special needs kids.
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ltxhk
17 yrs ago
Namaste,
Since your son had such a poor experience with ESF, as you said, it may be best to try something else. There are a few more options that you may consider. As many posters have stated, the quality of education at local school varies tremendously..... but in some matter is linked to the band level. If he is in a band 3 school, you could look at all options to get him moved to at least a band 2 school. In general, you will find the level of English and teacher background much better. If you have some type of religious affiliation such as Anglican, Catholic or Buddhist, you may get more consideration since these religious groups sponsor so many of the schools. Regardless of his ADD issues, almost all children have areas they can excel in..... whether it be academics, sports, music etc. Local schools are always open to kids who can stand out in something, and will turn a blind eye to the other "issues."
Another option to consider would be a different ESF school. As a "previous" student, he would still have some priority. ESF is an umbrella of schools, and though they are very similar in many ways, the atmosphere and approach is set by each head of school/ staff. I suspect that you were at SC, and perhaps were caught in a bit of a transition of the system. SC was the first ESF school to offer the IB as a pilot, and was the one school that opposed an alternative diploma channel for students that were not suitable to the IB. The final outcome is that ALL ESF schools will offer both the IB (majority of students) OR an ESF Diploma (minority who will sit some combination of IB and A level exams dependent on their interests and backgrounds). All the ESF schools on HK island have firmly backed offering both options, and supposedly South Island and West Island have the most diploma candidates since they have strong alternative learning teams. Even Island school which does not have a specialized unit still has a special learning team, and many kids are on IEP. At Island school we have found the focus to be on setting achievable targets for each student, and helping them all find their strengths (academic, personal, leisure etc) Secondary 3 is a good year to try for a space at ESF since many kids will go to boarding schools in this year.
One more option that would still mean a commute, would be Canadian International School (CDNIS) in Aberdeen (but they have buses to the NT, and it's not so bad since early start and finish). CDNIS will offer BOTH the IB and Ontario Secondary Diploma (widely respected by both US and Canadian universities). The most capable students will graduate with both, but MANY will graduate with only the Diploma. Though an international school, CDNIS is predominantly Chinese on the secondary level, but with very good levels of student English and native English teachers. The atmosphere is more disciplined than other international schools probably due to the more local student population. It is quite a structured school with not as much creativity as HKIS or ESF, but still much more than the local schools. This atmosphere may be very suitable to your son. CDNIS does not have as much specialist support as HKIS, but it does exist. Actually, I have heard mostly negative on HKIS for ADD secondary students; ie the primary and secondary are very different places. CDNIS is not cheap, but also not in the HKIS category. Tuition is about the same as ESF, however, you would still need to pay a capital levy of about $18,000 per year (unless you have a debenture). The school is always interested in native English speakers on all levels, but realistically they have few applicants for the secondary. CDNIS has a lot of extra-curricular such as music, sport, games, art etc..... any strength in these areas would help.
Based on what you have described, you might both be much happier with exploring more options.
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LTXH - Thank you for your lengthly and informative response. I have been around and around with the Education Dept. here trying to get my son into a school. It's a run around of calling different district offices. Basically, if your child doesn't speak Chinese, there are very few options in the public sector - Sir Ellis Kadoorie, Delia Kwun Tong and Delia Mei Foo. All of thee EMI schools do require the student to speak Chinese. I have telephoned nearly all of them in our district and they say that he cannot apply because of the maths and history classes, which are in Chinese. Most of their primary schools are strictly in English though, with Putonghua offered as a class. If you have any names of secondary schools in the public sector, that would be very helpful. I looked over the CDNIS website and was really impressed with all of the options (IB, diploma, etc...). Unfortunately, there is no way that I can afford their fees, especially with the annual capital levy. I think you are right about us being in the ESF school at the wrong time. It did seem like it was in a lot of transition. Big staff turnover and now a new principal.
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Frankly it would be very good to see some of these complaints in the SCMP and other papers. The secretary for education is claiming the quality of the bridging courses and diploma courses is going to be high; but they can't guarantee the quality of the regular primary, secondary, and tertiary courses they are already responsible for. Politicians, not educators, are in charge of the UGC and other governmental educational bodies. There is NO reason HK could not be the strongest city in Asia in terms of education--the money's there, the infrastructure can be build upon the basis that exists, and the knowledge and desire can be found among those of us who care. But the political will is completely absent--dare I suggest that might be a remnant of colonlialism that the government is pleased to see linger? And its not just the Chinese schools--I am intimately familiar with the travails of a certain school in the NT who suffered and still suffers under an incompetent headmaster yet to be replaced due to more maladministration. In fact, at this particular school, people who WERE specialists in special needs were not renewed so that funds could be diverted...to more administrative staff, 'special projects' and the like--very little of which directly benefited the students and none of which went to the special needs students. And the big staff turnover was no mystery--they didn't leave ESF, most of them. BTW, the particular headmaster who was appointed was NOT the choice of the teachers at that school. When administrators do not listen to educators, when the voice of the teacher in the classroom is relegated to background noise, any learning that happens is a lucky coincidence. This is true not only here in HK, not just in China, but in the UK, Oz, USA, India, Japan....hey, how many different countries can you name? Did you learn them from a teacher, or an admistrator?
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Here's a research article that was published by HKU about discrimination of ethnic minorities in HK. Although it is aimed at ethnic minorities, I can say that many of the same issues apply to middle and lower-class expats who must be in HK to work and can't afford international school fees. Please take the time to read through it and if you work for the media, please consider coverage of this issue amongst all expats, not only minorities. My son knows a few teenage boys who live in HK and don't attend school b/c their parents can't afford it. What I have learned from my son's experience in HK is this: Hong Kong's educational system supports and directs teaching towards successful, independent and motivated students. Three of the international schools that I had called to inquire about admittance of my son, with a diagnosis of ADD, said that special needs students are integrated into classes, but that they don't have special needs support. Integrating special needs students into mainstream classrooms is a great step, but without proper support, the student is hugely disadvantaged. Anyway, look at this article: http://www.hku.hk/ccpl/pub/occasionalpapers/documents/WebversionPDF.pdf
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Namaste,
Did you know that Hong Kong Academy offers full or partial financial scholarships? they are currently looking for 4-5 children to give scholarships to for next year. The scholarships would pay for the child's tuition and expenses for their entire education. They are adding grades each year and will have 9th grade in September. They are quite skilled in offering IEP's. Maybe you can consider calling them. 2575-8282
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PS... Those test question examples were pathetically confusing.
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PS...www.hkacademy.edu.hk
It's an IB school. Did you say you think the kids who do IB are sought after by universities? Just curious because I am not sure if universities prioritize it. Thanks!
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ltxhk
17 yrs ago
Namaste,
I was moved to reply to your post out of concern for your son's future and learning. The HK education system has a long history and is trying to evolve, but there are so many issues even if a child is not ADD, let alone the fact that the schools are not equitable even if you can speak Chinese. It is a divisive and elitist system that favors either the rich or well-connected. At the very top schools, kids who are in the middle and above will prosper, but still be subjected to a very rigid teaching style; rote memory and text book answers are the norm and not the exception. For kids who are different, local schools have only just begun to recognize this group, and there are few teachers trained at all in the subject. Compared to the USA, hk international schools are behind in learning support programmes, but at least they have trained teachers and some awareness. In HK the local solution has been to let these "difficult" students attend the poorest schools, and expecting the poorest results. Keep in mind that about 50% of the student population will fail the HKCEE at secondary 5; with many lower band schools having a 90% failure rate and the best schools achieving almost 95% pass rate. Many local parents who have children with learning differences and can afford the fees opt for international schools since they feel there will be at least some support.
In the end, every student is unique ..... definitely not the HK philosphy..... and the most important is to find the best option considering all factors. It is absolutely true that the government has paid no heed to providing true public education for English speakers, or children without Chinese. It has not been on their agenda even though it should have been for years. The situation is improving a bit .... but the outcome will be too late for your son. As a long term expat who is familiar with the local and international schools (my kids attended both), I can unfortunately report that Sir Ellis Kadoorie provides education for what the gov't terms "the underclasses" originally mostly Nepalese, SE Asians, Indians etc. Delia Memorial is considered a bit better, but when there were 5 bands.... all these schools were in band 5. Due to negative connotation, the bands were moved to 3 bands with 3/4/5 merged into one group. It is assumed that most of these kids will not succeed and the gov't is just meeting some mandatory obligation since the Chinese schools don't want the kids. Every school will have positives, but ultimately HK is not providing any form of egalitarian education AND IT DOES MATTER which local school a child attends in terms of quality, resources, attitude, outcomes etc..... same curriculum extremely different outcomes. All the locals know this, and this is why they invest so heavily in trying to get their kids into band 1 schools.
There is no rule in HK that a student must attend a school in their district, but each school must accept a set % from their district. Being in the NT, you could widen your search to include Kowloon. A secondary student should be able to commute by bus and mtr. Many kids in CWB, SK and Tai Po come to Hk in this manner. Kowloon will have more options. For the top HK schools, they actually have 2 streams in secondary ...... Chinese and French. Locals are not interested in the French stream since they greatly prefer Chinese, so this leaves an opening for expats at very good schools. Since all these good schools in Kowloon are religious, they will at times take a more lenient view to special cases; I know of 2 learning challenged students who were accepted at St Francis and LaSalle. BUT they do usually have something that they can excel at. Options in the elite that I know of are: St Joseph's, Lasalle, St Francis, DBS..... there would be others in Kowloon. If your son is good at some sport, the Shatin Sports Institute may also be an option. Christian Alliance PC Lau Memorial Int'l School is also locally funded and is considered better than Kadoorie, Delia; I believe it has a Canadian diploma. English ability of the students might be a bit lower than current school, but teacher background and student motivation would be higher.
"Quasi" international schools ---ie placing themselves in the int'l sector, but usually considered more local with fees at or below ESF----- would be:
1) Delia School of Canada: HK and Kowloon campus; Canadian diploma; mostly Chinese or other Asian
2) Chejiang and Chiangsu INTERNATIONAL school ---- Northpoint; known for their quality Mandarin programme, but they have an international section that teaches in English with Mandarin as a class
3) Korean International School----- from inception Korean has supported an English severe needs nuclear classroom (springboard). I don't believe ADD kids are in this group..... but they may be more open. English section attended by Chinese, Asians and some other country nationals
4) Seventh 7 Adventist College ----- located in Clear Water Bay; supported by the church with either USA or Canadian diploma. Mostly local however population is changing with more expats etc.
5) International Christian School---- kowloon
6) Victoria-Shanghai ---- aberdeen; English based with Mandarin for second language. Mostly local with other Asians and a few expats. Great facility and growing in reputation, but school fees close to ESF and no debenture. The school is disciplined.
Unfortunately, I don't think you will find any schools in the local sector that truly support kids with ADD, but there could be some government resources available for tutoring. I know there is some newly founded local ADD support tutoring group in Kowloon. Perhaps you could try FOCUS (int'l support group for ADD and other learning issues) who may also know how to contact the government unit.
I hope that there is something useful here, and that the school situation could improve for your son.
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So far I have contacted these schools and inquired about admissions for a Form 2, Grade 8, P-9 Student with ADD and lower than average grades. Here's what I found so far:
Delia of Canada: Depends on grades
St. Francis: Need Chinese for history and culture
Renaissance - Said save the application fee money and that they definately wouldn't consider him.
CAIS - Said chances were very, very low and that it would be a waste of money to apply
LaSalle: Need written & spoken Chinese for history and culture classes
Pui Kei College: Need written & spoken Chinese for PSSE (physical, social & spiritual) class as well as for PE.
DBS: Need Chinese for history
Adventist College: Offer only Form 6 & 7 programs as well as a very affordable university program, with boarding.
St. Joseph's: Nobody could understand English and they took down my number to ring back later
He might get more out of an online homeschooling program. Thanks for the recommendation to FOCUS. Unfortunately, FOCUS is full of parents like me with the same concerns, but not many options. My son also works with a psychiatrist who was highly recommended by St. John's. It seems that the psychotherapeutic approach in HK to kids with ADD is more about medicating than about behavioral approaches. Fortunately, he is well-behaved and cooperative, especially for a 13-year-old boy. Unfortunately, he is highly unmotivated and lacks the independent study skills that are required in HK(i.e. the words "revise" equate to fuzz in the brain, but worksheets and tactile learning are tangible for him, but not offered). Sigh.
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ltxhk
17 yrs ago
Namatse,
Very sorry to hear that you really have few options. I have sent you a PM.
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P19
17 yrs ago
As a point of information: Universities don't especially favour IB students. Of all students who follow UK-based curricula, IB students comprise around 2%. This means that UK universities are more familiar with A-levels than IB - and the same is (currently) true for HK universities admitting non-JUPAS students. Most usually when presented with IB results, university admissions tutors will tend to look first at a student's results in relevant subjects and whether these were taken at the 'higher' level. A-levels and the new Cambridge Pre-U curricula have more content for each subject and are probably better for students who have a clearer idea about the kind of subject(s) they would like to study at university.
From a university's point of view, it is most important that a student (i) shows enough motivation for the field of student; (ii) is academically capable of dealing with the course content; (iii) has adequate social skills to make a positive contribution to the university community.
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"From a university's point of view, it is most important that a student (i) shows enough motivation for the field of student; (ii) is academically capable of dealing with the course content; (iii) has adequate social skills to make a positive contribution to the university community."
Indeed. That is the relevant stuff. If your kid is reasonably socially competent, studies hard and is motivated, most universities will find him a good fit.
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Try Hong Kong Academy....
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bdi
17 yrs ago
namaste, I did not know ESF can expel a student. for what? A child with a problem or not able to cope. As a school isn't it their job together with the parents to find out how best to give him an education? Esp. for non-locals who don't have much alternatives.
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BDI - It is quite appauling, isn't it. Basically, the way that they addressed his ADD was to create a contract with him in which each of his teachers had to write a short narrative after each class period with remarks regarding his in-class motivation, cooperation, and homework. He would often forget to have it filled out and when he did (probably 70% of the time) the remarks for motivation and co-operation were good, but he lacked complete homework at least every other day. Again, the new special education director in the head office was surprised to hear that he had not been given an IEP and that he had not been psychologically reassessed. He appears quite normal and is highly social, so he went under the radar until I approached the school in the second year and brought up some of the learning struggles that he was facing. When I spoke with the new special ed. director from ESF, who really listened, I told her that what I wanted the school to do was to provide my son with some learning/study skills to help him cope with his learning challenges. He was in detention for lack of homework at least once a week for two years. In my son's eyes, detention was much easier than completing homework and seemed a fair trade off. As a child with ADD, doing nothing (sitting in detention) is not a problem. I don't think he really understood the direness of the situation. It was the day before Christmas break started that I received an email saying that if my son didn't "drastically improve" in the first weeks after the holiday, that he would officially be asked to leave the school. As a parent of a child who has had ADD since birth, I knew that he was neither capable of improving his situation (without proper intervention) and that he felt defeated, personally and academically. He still feels that way. Fortunately, he is an amazing artist and loves to illustrate. So, we are teaching him Photoshop and Illustrator skills at home on weekends when he can work one-on-one with us and give return demonstrations right on the spot. Our options as expats in HK are extremely limited and there are few alternative approaches to education in HK. He learns without a problem when one-on-one and in small groups. The major concern for the school was his inability (what they perceived as outright refusal) to complete homework. I withdrew him from school before they officially wrote "expelled" on his records. The school said that all ESF schools worked independently and that they could in no way help him transfer to another ESF school (I still have all of the emails). I really panicked over the Christmas holiday and called around to many international schools who said that it would be "unfair" of them to take on an ADD child b/c of lack of resources. This situation is endemic in Hong Kong, in local and international schools. I have met so many parents with similar stories. Other kids that year who were expelled were so for stealing, racist comments and raising a fist to a teacher. The social worker was quite good with him and had him involved in reading books to primary school children in local schools on Saturdays. That was probably the most helpful and forward thinking intervention.
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bdi
17 yrs ago
I would understand them expelling a student for the reasons mentioned above but not because of ADD. If they are educators and care about their vocation they should provide support for learning disabilities too. Especially for ones who can achieve using different approaches and parental help. Or atleast give you some alternatives instead of leaving you helpless.
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I always wonder how my son feels about himself, knowing that he was going to be expelled and comparing himself to the others who had been expelled.
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Yes, it seems to be a sink or swim school system.
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merm
17 yrs ago
There are some very good local schools in hk. You have to know which ones. Of course those are very hard to get into. I know some teachers who are not only qualified and dedicated but are also people of integrity. From them I've heard some unexpected stories about their colleagues.
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Merm - My son cannot get into a Tier 1 school b/c he has low grades, and likely will always struggle through school. The "better" local schools are set up for kids who can really work independently and who don't have learning difficulties. However, I am really curious to hear the names of those schools. What I've gleaned from living in HK is that most local secondary schools require some Chinese for their PE, PSSE or History classes. For example, St. Margaret's, St. Stephen's, DBS, Lam Tai Fai, etc.... I know that there are exceptional teachers out there.
Unfortunately, they are overworked and lack the support required, leading to depression, exhaustion and two suicides last year. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=82407. This article says that teachers in local schools are working upward of 60 hours per week and the class sizes are unmanageable. My son's math teacher says the regulations change every year and she can't know what will happen with the curriculum changes next year. People are excited that the ED is finally "decreasing" the number of students in New Territories secondary schools, but that is not a decision from the ED. It is inevitable because of the decrease in birth rates during those particular years and the schools have to adjust to it. They are only decreasing by 3-4 students per classroom.
There has been a huge overhaul in the 2009 curriculum to introduce critical thinking, creativity and interaction. That will be interesting. My English secondary students, from top schools, actually copy answers directly from the text when answering comprehension-type questions. I ask them not to do that when I am teaching them and to use their own words and they are often stumped for the first few months. What I am really doing is teaching them to think outside the box and not regurgitate information.
There are so many art directors and designers living in HK who work in the product industry. They lead teams of local artists who can copy well but can't come up with ideas on their own. That goes back to childrearing and education. Interestingly, immigration acknowledges this lack of creativity in its own work force and easily grants visas to those in creative fields.
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At last we are hearing the true scenes behind the ESF schools. This forum should be renamed SHOCK OF THE ESF instead.
I have long suspected the ESF is not flawless afterall. I have heard of kids getting expelled but it appears quite a normal procedure as mentioned in this forum. Also the kids with drug possession has hit the papers in the past. Moreover, ESF teachers recommend weaker pupils to take extra private tution which conveniently takes some of the responsibilities off their shoulders. Hey, I would have thought paying all those fees, I would expect a little more attention from teachers to weaker students. But no, these middle income parents will rush to private tution to get their kids up to scratch.
Now they are turning kids with learning difficulties away is unthinkable.
We only hear the good things of the ESF schools. But to put a balance prospective, more of these views in this forum should be published.
Yes, the ESF schools do have good results. But if we think twice IGCSE are not exactly difficult and obtaining an A grade seems meaningless when about 40% of candidates achieve this.
Furthermore, ESF schools always compare their results to comprehensive schools in UK which is pretty unfair given different family background, inner city problems and allocation of resources. We also should note the cultural difference, as Asian family tend to encourage academic achievement in their children.
As mentioned, ESF schools only produce one stream of education and unless you have motivated and independent kids they won't fit in well.
Probably one of the reason why you do not hear of kids fail in the ESF schools because they would have been all expelled before reaching that stage.
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My daughter used to go to a DSS school and found it difficult to cope with all the regulations. She felt she wasn't getting anywhere and is now homeschooling. The pressure is off her and she can spread out her IGCSEs rather than do them in one go.
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But do you know how much teachers earn? A fully qualified teacher starts on $24K/month. These are the people who spend more time in a day with your children than you do - so if you are concerned about the quality of teachers then lobby the government to up the salaries. Think how many potentially great teachers are lost to meaningless industries like banking, purely because the individuals concerned want to be able to bring up their own children properly.
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WHat r u doing now? R u homeschooling him? There are some good homeschool groups. Not turning in HW once a week should get you a B rather than an A. that's nuts. i worked daily after school, had an erratic homework completion rate and went on to become a teacher in Canada.
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TC - Why is it then that when I brought the multi-disciplinary assessment to the "special needs" teachers at my son's school, that they completely dismissed it. Those evaluations are generally accurate for a period of three years and at the time, his was only two years old. I would like to say that there is more to the story, like there was some intervention, but there was none. What I was told was that the school had to follow policy and that meant giving detention to discipline students and then out-of-school suspension and the out-of-school expulsion. As I said, the Head of Middle years was surprised to learn, at the end of it all, that my son had a diagnosis and took medications AND that it was related to his learning. It was at this time that the lights really went on and they were prepared to "do more". However, as I said, my son wasn't officially expelled. I withdrew him because he had been given two weeks to "drastically improve", which doesn't happen with ADD kids. This was two years after giving them the initial assessment and me trying to make contact with the teachers. Most of the teachers weren't aware that he had a diagnosis. I was able to get through to the science teacher and art teacher, who were great in creating effective learning strategies for him.
He doesn't fit the bill of being distracting or having poor behavior. He has great social skills, which is why he can get by so long without being noticed. He doesn't draw any attention to himself and he appears to "fit in". He gets along with both teachers and peers. The expectation on him was the same as it was for all the other students. Which is fine if he had coping/study skills to handle it. In my last talk with the Head of Middle Years, he said he would call me in a few weeks to be sure my son was happy at the new school. If he wasn't, he could possibly re-admit him to the school and they could start with a new approach (IEPs, intervention, support). Unfortunately, my son was so ready to move on and felt quite badly about the whole experience.
The reason that he did finally catch the eye of faculty was b/c I got a hold of his new Head of Year. We met and he had devised this plan, using the contract and following school policy. I was a bit confused by it and told him that if we followed it, my son would be expelled within two weeks. He was very hopeful though as he saw a lot of potential. I had suggested that instead of this approach (my son doesn't mind detention at all) that his consequences could be sth like helping clean up the labs after school, assisting in classrooms with younger children, etc... He said this was not possible b/c of school policy.
As far as the number of expulsions, I don't know exactly. But, I do know that the first year that he was there, there had been a huge problem with theft. In the 2nd year, they developed a no tolerance policy for theft and there were about three students who were expelled, which Renaissance picked up (it was easier to get in back then).
At Renaissance, one student was expelled b/c he got angry and raised a fist to a teacher. Which is very scary. He was immediately expelled. Where did he go, what kind of follow-up did he get? Another kid at AIS had ADHD, much different than ADD, and is on the brink of being expelled. They have a one-to-one teacher with him in each class throughout the day (talk about great intervention).
I am not in any way trying to slam that school b/c I think it is an AMAZING place and that their classes are incredible. They have top-notch (overworked) teachers and am amazing facility, better than any University that I attended. If I had the opportunity to go there, I would have thrived, because that is my kind of place. It's just not the kind of place for my son because he is not academically oriented, and he's not motivated enough to take independent ownership of his learning.
I am concerned, not only for my son, but for all the kids in Hong Kong who are displaced in the education system.
Not you - I actually dropped out of school when I was 14 and then pursued a diploma on my own. When I was 27, I started University and went all the way through until I had done my Master's (7 long years of University). I graduated with honours at a bachelor level and had a 4.0 at graduation for the Master's level. Now, I work in curriculum development. We are very fortunate to be able to do so, but for the students of HK, they don't have the same opportunity. If they aren't successful in school, they will most likely not be successful later.
There is hope. I have contacted a very, very small school in Sheung Wan called South Bend Int'l. They were founded by a paster, from the Philippines, who created a school for Philippino students. The school offers a commercial program in business, and has classes in maths, history, literature, English, accounting, economics, business and a few others. The kids sit for the GCSE exams at the end of the school year. The school hours are from 10-3 and then the kids have to be online, with a parent, at 6 to get their homework, which they return, via online, at 7. The class sizes are sooooo small. They only have Forms 3-5 and then offer a University Program (only one major offered in business). Form 3 has 4 kids, and Form 4 has 8 kids this year. They can tailor make a program for any kid and have local three teachers who can work very closely with the kids. I am going to meet with them on Friday to see the school and talk with them more in person. Lucky for me, the American universities and technical schools are open to such approaches.
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Sounds interesting. Maybe that is what he needs. If not, Hong Kong Academy is still accepting applications for Middle School and scholarships are available. They're still accepting applications if it's of interest. You'll know what is best for him.
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Hi Notyou - I am going to meet with HKA next Wednesday. The biggest downside of HKA is that it will probably take 1.5 hours for us to commute there as there isn't any parking on the campus. It would be great if both of my kids could go there and I could park nearby and work around that area during school hours.
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Hi TC - Did I say Renaisssance is an ESF school? I didn't. I can tell you that my sons ESF school did not have fully qualified special needs teachers or a whole department of them. In his year, they had the Spanish and English teachers who took on the additional role of addressing children with special needs, but they didn't teach them and even create an IEP for him. They were the two who dismissed my son's 25-page multidisciplinary assessment from the States (5 disciplines and each of them stating he had a diagnosis of ADD). If they were truly qualified special needs teachers, I doubt they would have dismissed such an in-depth and thorough report. They didn't keep an eye on him or provide any follow-up for him. I have heard that there are strong special needs departments at KGV and South Island. Prior to moving here, my son had occupational therapy and physical therapy interventions at school. He had behavioral counseling as well. We never needed medications until we got here and there weren't any other intervention options. When we arrived here, it just all ended and we do what we can. My daughter's school, Norwegian Int'l has a very strong special needs department and the teachers interact with parents daily if necessary. My son came from that very small and special environment to a huge institution without support. Imagine how windswept that would be even without learning difficulties.
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namaste,
Can I have the phone number and address of South Bend. Have tried to search it but did not get the needed results. Thanks very much.
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High desert now:
Web address: kcpholdings.org
Address: 228 Queen's road, Central
Phone: 2521-4954
Contact: Mr. Raymond, Ramos
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Hi Namaste,
My kids go to HKA. We love it. If you have any questions, pls ask. It's a school which allows for and embraces differnt learning styles, for example, the kids may get taught 5 ways to do long division and they can do whatever works for them. In middle school, there is some advisory time which bonds the kids. There is no smoking, no drugs, no bullying and the kids are excited when a new child comes and he/she is welcomed. Parents say when they have several kids who start HKA, they think the one in MS will have the hardest time, but they go home and say they loved their first day. The principal and MS principal are married and have a child with either ADD or ADHD. They know all about modifying programs and wouldn't blink. Our Learning Specialist and OT are the best. I think your son has good qualities, good genes and needs a small environment like he's had previously. glad u r looking into it. I am a sucker for happy endings.
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http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/living-in-hong-kong/threads/111712/hong-kong-academy-primary/
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DBS and St Joseph's are two traditionally elite local schools (= good English) that offer French for those who don't want to study Chinese. We've tutored some of their students (English, French, Italian, Spanish) and the best ones are definitely over achievers. Extra-curricular Spanish is also offered.
Canadian International is one that takes mainly Chinese students. French is offered. I've taught a boy there who couldn't get into a top local school so his parents sent him there.
Have you tried Delia in Taikoo? It's an international / Canadian school so no Chinese is required. Students are mostly Chinese and northeast Asians with some Indians and a few Caucasians. Not a top school so easier to get in. It's pretty big and is in a nice neighbourhood.
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The Canadian school takes students who pass their test. If 50 kids are on a waiting list and the next child comes along and scores higher score, he/she will have priority and be accepted before the others. Is this common here?Namaste,
good luck with transportation and sorting things out. How old is your other child?
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PS...I've also heard good things about Renaissance College,which I believe is closer to you. Have you gone there? Sorry I may have missed a post.
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Not you - I talked with Renaissance and they had said that I shouldn't waste my money on the application and that they couldn't even consider him. Being in Shatin, I am surrounded by kids who go to Renaissance and every parent I meet is quite happy with it. Although it is very, very demanding. One of my friends has a son who was offered a full scholarship there for his academic record. He previously went to ICS and is struggling with the learning approach at Renaissance. I guess there are a lot of huge projects in their Middle Years Program.
As far as competition in schools, it would seem that if a school wanted to gain a better reputation, they might want to recruit top scoring students. That seems a strange policy though, in the case of The Canadian School.
DBS - my daughter was accepted to sit for the entrance examination at age 7. The exam contained maths, English and Chinese. However, they did tell me that it was a competitive exam and that only those with best marks would be admitted. I called the Head Mistress a few times before the exam b/c I was confused why they would let her sit for the exam if she didn't know any Chinese. She said to me, "I think you know what you should do, I can't tell you what to do". I kept trying to clarify with her if it would be a waste of time and she kept repeating that mantra again and again. Very confusing. I do think it's a great school, but you do need Chinese for the history class. I tutor English to some of their top students and I can tell you that my son would never be admitted there.
The problem with trying all these big schools is that they really do lack the appropriate intervention that my son needs. I know there will never be the perfect school, but I think it's only fair to him that he is put in an environment that he walks away at the end of the day having owned his learning. If he learns anything right now, it is most likely coincidental and passive.
I met with the South Bend school yesterday. It was very interesting. The "school" is in a little tiny office. The three teachers there have Bachelor's degrees, but not in education. Apparently, in HK, anyone with a Bachelor's can be certified by the ED to teach a particular subject at a particular school. These people do it because they believe in the kids and want to help them. The school has only 8 students, in Forms 4 & 5. Next year, they will have 2 Form 3 students. The school was originally created for Phillipino students who were expelled from the Tier 3 schools, like Delia. Now, they have mixed races and also offer a separate high school completion program for Indonesian helpers as well. As the principal says, these kids are raised by their friends and they lack strong families. Some of them have been through rehab already and/or juvenile detention. It's a rough group, but nothing my son hasn't been exposed to at his current tier 3 school. The learning is very one-to-one and they don't move on until the student "gets it". Although it's a rough set of kids, it seems to be the ideal learning environment for my son. The school maintains very close contact with parents. They have exams monthly and take the GCSEs at the end of the year. There are high expectations, simple and effective rules and the kids who are there really want to be there. The most concerning element is that it is a commercial program and therefore, they don't offer any language or science programs. If he goes there, I might be able to arrange some correspondence programs from the States, so that he can obtain an American High School diploma in the end.
I also learned that at his current school, there are fist fights almost daily.
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ltxhk
17 yrs ago
Sears Rogers is another school that may be quite similar to South Bend. It may also be a bit bigger, and offering some science and language. Not sure about the fees.
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Both of them sound interesting. Your children are lucky to have a parent who cares so much about them and their education. I know it will work out. As for the Canadian, their entrance policy offends me. I don't want my children surrounded only by children who are gifted in math and language. Some children are gifted in art, public speaking and it's been wonderful for my children to learn from others by either helping them or being helped or just brainstorming with different focuses. It sounds to me like South Bend is a very caring place. I looked it up and it's amazing how small it is. I don't understand how the school can run without charging a lot. Do you mean the teachers are practically volunteering? As forDBS, it's unfortunate that the admissions person didn't speak clearly. Of course it would've helped if she said that your daughter only had a 20% chance of being admitted or that they'd admit her if her other scores were above average, etc. Her answer was ridiculously incoherent and wasn't respectful of your time and intelligence!
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PS...Thanks for telling me about Renaissance College. I didn't know it was so demanding. It's a shame they won't consider your son. I'm disappointed that HK doesn't have more consideration of the needs of westerners in terms of education. It's shocking to me.
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Not You- Did I tell you that my daughter goes to school at NIS, which sounds alot like HKA. It's very small and personal as well. They do tailor curriculum depending on the needs of the child. For example, one year, one child had a desk in his grade as well as one grade higher. He was able to grow where he was talented. He also had special needs and was given a lot of wonderful intervention. Mostly, he was embraced for who he is.
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THere is an ESF school which caters to special needs' kids. I believe it's in Kowloon.
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That's great! Is it your son who goes to the local school?
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PS...About the peer pressure question and others like it, does anyone complain that the English translation is so poor that it's impossible to answer the questions correctly?
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"Do not train children to learning by force and harshness, but direct them to it by what amuses their minds." ~~ Plato
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