Posted by
Babeez
15 yrs ago
Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has had experience with having a helper that isn't really our expectations. In short, we have specififically asked her to do certain things and created a list but every two weeks, after our talk, things go back to the way they were, house is not clean, kids end up eating the same food for a week etc. Just wondering, should we hae ANOTHER chat or terminate her? Anyone have experience with this situation? I don't really want to give her any more chances as recent behaviour includes mixing children's milk with soya milk and feeding children cold rice, borrowing our things without asking etc. I feel our expections are simple, a clean house and someone who can cook simple food/ be able to play with our children when i go to work (P/T). I now have big worries about what the children are eating when i am not at home. Also, i was wondering what is normal for food? We are giving her $400 a month for food and she is ofcourse welcome to rice and condiments but i have never seen any of her food. Is it too much to ask what she is eating/buying for herself as i think she is saving her food allowance right now. A lot of things i wouldn't even mind if she just asked but i am just a worried about all the things that are happening when i am not there as i only dicovered the mixed milk because i tasted it. We hae given her a list of things she can cook for us and the children but it only lasts for a week or so before we are all eating the same dish every day again. I am close to stopping work but i am lucky enough to have my mother to come in twice a week to help so i feel sme reassurance that they are eating a hot meal. Am i asking too much? I think we started off on the wrong foot as i wanted to treat her like a member of the family and now i feel like i am the helper as i have to do everything myself when i finsh work.
So simply, should i just terminate? It seems like an awful thing to do as i don't think she sees it coming. Has anyone been in this situation before?
Would appreciate any advice on termination, expectations and how we could be better employers as we she is our first helper.
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KoMo
15 yrs ago
Firstly, a helper is there to help you out, if she is not doing that then she is probably not the best fit for your household and family.
Secondly, I don't think you are asking anything out of the ordinary or asking her to do too much. I believe what you are asking her to do is really what most employers of helpers expect from them (what you ask sounds fairly similiar to what I expect from our helper, and we have no issues).
So, by the sounds of it, you seem to have asked her plenty of times and reminded her of her duties, maybe it is time to part ways. Make the break, learn from your experiences (that is maybe you prefer to maintain an employer/employee relationship as opposed to 'part of the family') and maybe think about how you can do things differently. Sometimes we don't want to feel 'mean' or 'nasty' but in the end if they are not doing what you ask (within reason of course) and you have continually reminded her of this, then it sounds like she is not up to the job and it is time to let her go.
But, if you are honestly not ready for that, then have a serious talk with her. Give her one last chance, but tell her it is her LAST chance. When I say serious, I mean, sit her down so you are face to face, explain that you have asked her to do things a certain way (tell her specific things) and she keeps going back to her old ways. Ask her why she does this? Don't try and suger coat it, try and be direct so she can't get confused. If you haven't already done so, write down what you expect (like a schedule) and get her to tick off the sheet as she completes things. Tell her if she fails to do what you ask, you will terminate her. Finally, if she continues to fail to perform after this, I would definitely part ways. No more chance.
Good luck - sticky situation to be in.
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I don't understand why people leave it up to the maid to decide what they are eating that night. I've had a couple of maids who could cook well but I'm pretty sure that if I asked them to menu plan for me I'd be eating out most nights. I understand your other concerns but I'd never leave it up to a maid to work out what we are eating. I would print off a menu plan and write down specifically what we and my kids are eating that week and made sure she knew how to cook it.
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Hi Babeez
Our situation is identical to yours .. but now for the bad news (lol). It has been this way for 8 years and about 8 helpers later also. We have never found a helper that 1) knows how to wash clothes or read clothing labels 2) ever adjusts the heat setting on an iron 3) can put their own schedule together and organise themselves 4) has a deep knowledge of how to look after children with regards to food and hygene and timing of meals. Its been a long frustrating, tiring, boring but consistantly testing 8 years. All our helpers have had good sides to them , some are friendly, some are great with playing with children, some can cook amazingly well but basically there is no one single person who was ever up for it. The only one we had (who had a punch up with our other domestic helper) ended up leaving to go to Canada to earn more money (alot more). Right now we are close, but mostly we have schedules for everything, a food schedule for what we will eat, a weekly schedule for cleaning/shopping etc and a daily schedule which simply lays out the best way to work while children are at school etc). Its slowly working but as you say, the fact is.. as soon as you stop observing and engaging in the process, it basically stops and she/they go back to working how they want to.
I think, and its hard to say this, but if you feel you have a good helper, you need to just accept that your input will need to be pretty significant if you are all to live together and it is to work well. If you feel she simply is not up to it and her heart and mind is elsewhere, let her go. She will be a danger to your life and children in the long run (safety/hygene etc). I have never come across a good domestic helper in HK, I am told they exist, but the likley hood that their employment circumstances are similar to yours in order to get that raving review, is unlikley. Its hard , but with a bit of soul searching and extra personal input you can salvage something from a good helper.
Seriously, we have the identical situation and beleive what you are experiencing is VERY COMMON in hong kong. For us it is the single most frustrating aspect of living here, which is our reliance on domestic helpers.
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For the OP: I wouldn't hesitate to terminate her at this point. She's had her chance.
"I don't understand why people leave it up to the maid to decide what they are eating that night"
It depends on the helper and personal preference. We leave it up to our helper. I have no idea what I'm going to eat tonight. It works very well. However, this requires a helper who is a great cook, knows our tastes, varies the menu and every now and then comes up with new and interesting things. Then again I can also understand how you would want to decide.
In order to have a good helper, you must be a good employer. Some helpers are just hopeless, but you can have a lot of input into those who are not. A good attitude and a willingness to learn go a long way. What you must also realize is that you will give up certain things if you hire a helper. If you want amazing and perfect service, I guess you would hire a professional butler, a professional chef, a professional nanny and a cleaning service. However with a helper you have to take your expectations down a notch.
Sorry to hear about your bad luck McAlpine. And yes, there are good, even amazing helpers out there. . Certainly if I had to go through all that I would tear my hair out. We never have to remind our helper to do anything. She anticipates what needs to be done and we can be almost completely hands off. She adapts to the way we want it. At this point she knows us so well that even new things are not a problem. She figures out what we would want and does it.
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Thank you for all your advice. Maybe i was unclear in my original post. We have a list of duties and a menu, we have seven things on our menu so she just chooses one from the list every night. We didn't have one at the beginning and soon realised our helper was confused about our needs so the list we made was very specific but also very basic such as cleaning under the furniture and not just around it, wiping surfaces, mopping and throwing the rubbish out. There really wasn't much more than that but everything is only great for two weeks and then we are back to square one again. I have pointed things out several times (such as thick dust on shelves) but then after a week, we are back again at square one. I remember reading someone's post saying that a helper is meant to be helping, not causing more stress, i think about that alot and i am now ready to part ways as my mum has taken over shopping duties and has become the 'second helper'. This can't be right. Anyhow, now need help on this one. Do i just pay her one month's salary and buy her a one-way air ticket then ask her to be on her way or do i buy an open ticket so she has a chance to seek employment elsewhere? She has been with us for 16 months. Advice please? (axptguy38- can i have your helper please?)
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We were in a similar situation with making lists, having them disregarded and then having 'cordial chats' and having our helper get in a huff and sulk for the next ½ a day. We ended it with her after just under 3 months and have been without a helper for 6 weeks now in a house we're renovating, with a 3 year old and a 3 month old...it's not as bad as it sounds as the old helper was just a pain in the ar$e!
Our new helper starts at the end of next week and whilst we're nice people and will treat her well as an employee...we're not going to try to be so accommodating to her. After all, it is her job to help us....not the other way around! I feel we were too sweet to our old helper and let her get away with being really slack and incompetent for much too long before picking her up on it...we had also tried to make her feel like one of the family and unfortunately, I feel that that coupled with the fact that she is 17 years older than me made her think she was my mother , not my employee! Glad to see the back of her and happy about the choice we've made with the new one who I hope will be light years better!
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Hi Babeez,
If you're not happy with your helper and you've tried to train her, then you should just go ahead and terminate. My one regret in the past is keeping a helper too long because I thought they were a nice person, but in fact it was creating more work for me to keep them around.
We are on our third helper now and she seems like the most wonderful helper EVER! They are out there - keep trying - give them a trial when you hire them and check their references.
Regarding termination:
- pay her one month's salary in lieu of notice
- pay her $100 food and travel allowance for the day of her departure
- give her $980 for a one-way ticket to Manila (if that's where she's from)
- pay her any annual leave owing to her
- get her to sign a letter to Immigration - one copy for herself - to tell Immigration about the termination
- I think you also need to write her a release letter that she can keep for herself also.
Does that answer your questions?
Don't make my mistake - which you will see from my recent thread. I told my helper I would arrange the air ticket for her, she just need to tell me the date. And then she disappeared and I couldn't find her. So just give her the cash for the air ticket.
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Thanks Adele78 and Slammy. Adele, your situstion is EACTLY the same as nice, i am being tolerant as she is nice and good to the children but we are getting the same sour-face when it comes to the 'nice' reminders. I am happy when she 'remind' her to clean and she does it but then a week later, we are 'reminding' her to do it again. So similar, i am happy to hear that you did what i am going to do as my husband and i feel we are being a bit cruel. Thank you Slammy, that helps a lot, we are debating whether to buy her an open ticket to give her the chance to find another employer but then worry she might not leave or if we set the date, it might not be the right date for her. We will give her the money for her door-to-door trip back to her home then. Should i have a third party witness for when we terminate and give her the money, just incase she turns around and says we never gave it to her? As for the annual leave, we have employed her for 16 months, how do we work out how much annual leave we have to pay her? We want to be as fair as possible. Thanks!
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When you write the termination letter, you write on it all the money that you are giving her. The helper signs this to acknowledge that she received the money. You don't need a witness, because she is signing it herself. Then you email/fax/send the letter to immigration.
They have a calculation for what you owe the helper for annual leave: maybe you can find it in here. I remember seeing it somewhere...
http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/FDHguide.pdf
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Thank you so much, Slammy!
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Just so you are aware babeez , similar thing happened, infact yesterday. My wife made a small criticism to our helper and she went crazy then just texted later and said she will quit. This is the level of comitment you get from some helpers. The more you give the more they take. All this after writing schedules, food lists, providing above normal pay, insurance, additional holiday , comftable room and reasonable hours and life with family. Its a very depressing situation. Our big difference is also that we need 2 domestic helpers , can you imagine how impossible it is to get the chemistry correct?. Ai yaaaaa
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McAlpine, sounds like too much drama to want to put up with. Then again, I think you some people are like that regardless of how much "extra" you give them.
I know plenty of families with two helpers where it works very well. However it typically requires a bit more management.
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Some helpers dont want to be told what to do all the time.Taking care of babies and children is not an easy tasks,plus managing the house, food etc. Some parents were too lazy enough to look after their children when they are home. Domestic Helper is just there to help what the employers cannot do or cannot find time to do it anymore. And if you dont want the helper to eat your food , you are right to give her a food allowance of HK$740/month, it was stated in the contract, not Hk$400, whether you give extra foods or condiments. Why not try to give her a recipe books and tell her you wanted to eat something new.
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Some helpers dont want to be told what to do all the time.Taking care of babies and children is not an easy tasks,plus managing the house, food etc. Some parents were too lazy enough to look after their children when they are home. Domestic Helper is just there to help what the employers cannot do or cannot find time to do it anymore. And if you dont want the helper to eat your food , you are right to give her a food allowance of HK$740/month, it was stated in the contract, not Hk$400, whether you give extra foods or condiments. Why not try to give her a recipe books and tell her you wanted to eat something new.
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tenggay,
First of all, our helper asked us to make a list of all the things we wanted her to do as she was uncomfortable 'guessing' what we needed, so we created a list. Secondly, I work three days a week and look after our children before I go to work and on the other four days, I look after our children all the time. I never said that taking care of children is an easy task but between us, we try to make it more manageable. I told our helper that I didn't expect much cleaning on the days i worked as she had to look after the children but wanted a good clean when i took the children out. Where I have a problem is when I take the children out for 8-9 hours when I am not working and find that nothing on the list has been cleaned. When we signed the contract, the food allowance, as my helper told me, was $400, I have no problem with her sharing our food if she didn't take the money and i would be happy to pay $740 if our helper ever used it. Although I don't need to justify myself, I feel you have made a very big generalization about people who employ a helper. People without helpers can also be lazy parents. eople who have helpers can also be ery hands-on parents. Who are we to judge? Regarding folding pages of a cook book, done that five times already, that food is served for three days and is never to be served again but i guess helpers don't like to be nagged so i should just live with it.
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McAlpine, I feel for your situation, I hope you find a helper that can be more committed. Seems like a rather dramatic response from your ex-helper. : (
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Certainly one cannot expect the helper to read the minds of the employers on day one. With time, however, she should be able to anticipate what needs to be done. Heck, she works in the home every day. It should not be so hard to anticipate the employers' wishes.
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Yes, axptguy38, that is also how I feel. The list was created at the beginning but it consisted of very simple things, such as wiping all the surfaces and certain things that needed to be done bi-weekly or once a month, such as washing the curtains and cleaning the fans. It is the every day things that are not getting done which is really just common sense as, just like you said, as it is supposed to be done every day.
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Lists ..lol. Let me tell you about our lists , we have a daily schedule that, like you say babeez , shows when its good to do housework (ie when the children are out) and when it is not (ie when they are in). This is common sense to most people but not to many domestic helpers. We then have a weekly food schedule where we plan what will be eaten by who , lunch boxes for kids, snaks when they come home from school etc.), then we have a schedule of what everyone is doing , ie school , playdates , after school activities. THEN , we have even (over the years) broken down what we mean when we say "clean bathroom" (ie.. what exatly cleaning a bathroom entails) .. again .. common sense for many but NO.. not the HK Domestic helper. And how much of any of this gets followed? NONE!!! Then ... i have had 8 years now of explaining what those white labels are inside of ALL clothing , and how whites and coloured clothing dont mix in a machine, that a washing machine has different setting for different clothing (Imagine that!!!) and that even Irons can have their tempreture changed according to the type of clothing you are trying to iron. Then you have frozen food , meat and hygene, imagine that .... frozen meat cant be cooked from frozen!!!. Last week one of them ran a bath for the children , full of cold water (she wasnt aware they had warm water in baths!!! after 16 months!!!) ... the list goes on ..if anyone wants more ..i can give you them ... 3 children getting ready for school , where are the helpers? , eating breakfast in their room or hanging out laundery ?!? .. its all real. Hands up if anyone wants to see my list of how the average domestic helper copes with new borns, toddlers and young children. Their understanding of safety, of keeping parents remotely informed of anything they do .... its a never ending comedy of errors.
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McAlpine, please don't generalize by saying things like "not the HK Domestic helper" or "the average domestic helper". There are plenty of helpers out there who handle their jobs very well. There are many helpers who are absolutely brilliant. You can't extrapolate from the few you have employed.
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your right axptguy , but equally we should be carefull of generalizing to the positive (ie abslolutely brilliant - please let us know in which context you have experienced this?). Babeez has listed some common dificulties here in Hong Kong and this forum is loaded with similar tales. "the average domestic helper" i was reffering to is exactly that , a helper who specialized in the household running. Having sound experience with children of the kind Babeez needs is not an average requirement. I try very hard not to generalize and we have a very advanced understanding now of the domestic helper environment, to the point i should set up and agency to deal with these issues.
OK, to continue the debate what we have discovered is Tolerance - accept that some people do things differently and that change needs to be encouraged and demonstrated over time. Interview - critical period for the employer to make it clear what their requirements are or expectations, to ask if people can handle it or have had experience in those areas. Can that experience be followed up by a refference or phone call to an ex employer. Can it be demonstrated there and then? Comunication - do you click or comunicate well with each other?. This takes a few months to honestly evaluate but hints should be there in a good interview. Accept Increased Input from the parents of children - I am sure many people have the experience here in Hong Kong of good domestic helpers with single people or couples without children, the dynamics of the household and the parents is massively different with children and increases with the more you have. Some parents assume their domestic helper is coping when infact she is slowly breaking down due to the change in nature of her employment and requirements. Employers input needs to be increased and offer additional help to both the children (for being absent in the first place) and to the helper (for all the additional work). Consider less working hours or even 1 of the partners stopping work all together. Better for your children , the running of your house , and life in general ..perhaps less so on the bank balance. There is a huge amount more to this subject and we, as Babeez is just realizing are in the midst of basically dealing with the issues realistically but it is hard work and even more so if, like us , you require 2 domestic helpers. The chemistry and management skills required are infintely larger than those of many people in Hong Kong, of many domestic helpers too. I hope that does not come across as a generalization but a realistic appraisal of the situation and gamble that we put ourselves in.
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"equally we should be carefull of generalizing to the positive (ie abslolutely brilliant - please let us know in which context you have experienced this?)."
You are right. However our helper and the helpers of many of our friends are in fact absolutely brilliant. Not all helpers I meet are brilliant, but the majority could be categorized as at least competent. Yes I know it's all anecdotal.
I also think an "average" helper (whatever that is) can work well with an employer who manages well.
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Hi,
Been There, Done That!
We have had our share of bad domestic helpers, we have 2 helpers to look after my 92 year old father, because the elderly wakes up every 15 minutes. And we have gone through many. It is a never ending process. One of the helpers was just fired after 3 1/2 years working for us. It is something that you have to be prepared for every now and then as their heart is not into it. At least that is what we found. We have gone though male filipino nurses to middle aged indonesians. It's all the same. After a period of time, they will all have a change of heart.
I am also wondering for those of you who leave notes and schedules and lists, do you really think they can read and write and if they do, do you think they will follow? Even though we have two helpers, it is a nightly ritual to tell them what to buy for food, where to buy the food, and what we want cleaned.
Don't get me wrong, there are good helpers... for the 1 to 2nd year, then it goes downhill. And if they are really good, they get snapped up, literally, as there are helpers that I know and that are earning 15000hkd per month!
And don't forget, if you're planning on firing this one, i suggest you have a back up with your children/elderly, as it takes a long time for the replacement to get here.
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I don't agree with zeushk. I think a good worker will keep working hard, especially if she feels appreciated. I know a helper who has worked 14 years for a family. She is still great. I have no doubt our helper (almost 3 years now) will still be great if she work for us for 10 years.
Yes, great helpers do command higher salaries. Just like any other employee. The question is, why aren't more people paying more for a good helper?
And yes, notes and schedules and lists work. I would certainly go nuts if I had to remind my helper every night about what to do. As it is, she tells me what food I need to shop for. The apartment is spotless without any input from us. If there is any potential issue, like who is picking up the kids, she will remind me or call me.
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having a good helper means u are a good employer. So,expatguy,
I think u are a good employer,.. Im sure that your helper is happy serving your family :)
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A 'good helper' - it's a relative concept. What's good for one may not be good for another. It's like a 'good school' for your children. Every household runs differently (like every child is unique) and there isn't a perfect fit for every family. No matter how good we are as employers, how organised we are or how generous we are with the perks, if they decide to go, that's it.
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I would just say (without having read all the posts):
you employ somebody.
unfortunately the system is such that they have to live with you.
so basically, if the person that you can chose to have or not in your life, is making your life miserable for a reason or another, ie making you mad, you just don't need it.
there will never be a perfect one, you will never be perfect as an employer (they probably complain even more about their employer than we complain about them), but you can find one that doesn't frustrate you horribly.
that's where i draw the line.
if she makes me unhappy in my own home, or triggers lots of anger then, it is not good for me, nor for her.
and you are not married to her.
as to treating them as part of the family, that was my intention before and i have been thanked by vast ungratefulness, and been hugely disappointed...
they can make you feel like that too but this is to me unreliable.
remember, they work for you because they have to work for somebody to earn money, not because they want to be part of your family for the rest of their lives.
their lives is elsewhere, no matter how happy they are in their working environment.
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28cars, while I agree with the sentiment, insulting posters that way isn't very constructive. Also please please don't call helpers "slaves". It is very disrespectful.
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I do not agree that helpers are slaves. Our helper and our family work with the mutual agreement that she wants to work for us and we want her to work for us. I do not feel the need to justify our relationship wih our helper as we have mutual respect for one another.Yes, i have seen helpers carry six bags of groceries following the employer with a mini handbag in her hand but yet i have seen helpers out together with the children they look after, enjoying themselves. When we interviewed some helpers, i was very surprised by the questions they asked me, such as, "Will i get any days off?" or "Will you pay me the minimum wage?" Many were getting underpaid and not getting leave, working from 5am to midnight. Yes, there are employers who abuse their helpers but then there are many that don't. I was not moaning in my original post, i was merely asking for constructive advice. If this question were posted under 'employment', no-one would bat an eyelid. Please don't forget that whilst there are bad employers, there are also bad employees who steal, lie and end up in huge amounts of debt. I am not expecting loyalty, i am expecting what we agreed to in our contract in which we both entered through choice. That is not slavery. We did end up talking with our helper and we are gping to have weekly meetings and my mum has taught her to cook a few things but that does not either make us the best employer or her the best employee. Just because other people might not do that doesn't make them ungrateful or bad employers.
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Im afraid i also agree with Babeez and think that part of 28cars response is infact the problem. You seem to have not understood the complexity of the situation and peoples circumstances (particulary families with children etc) and instead looked at the economics as the reason for lapses in ability to cary out ones jobs correctly. Its true that people do complain alot and no doubt some if it is not justified. But these forums and in this threads example is that once again a family has got stuck in that common rut (refer to entire forum for other examples) that more often than not, a person in Babeez situation struggles with getting a good domestic helper and holding onto her. You use the phrase "proffesional cleaners and chefs" when we have pointed out simple domestic chores and cooking. We have spent the time , provided the extra income and training, written the schedules (and weekly meeting lol .. you say so innocently). It has come to nothing for many people.
As I say, there is a huge subject here that we can attempt to unravel together but it is a complex one that includes countries histories (theirs and ours), expatriatism, economics, imigration, ability vs expectations, comuncation and cultural gulfs. We all aknowledge and bare witness to the defficiencies in the current system but are looking for a way to improve the situation and gain access to better domestic help and nannies.
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McAlpine, it's true! We have moved onto weekly meetings. Oh well, one can only try. : ) Our helper to seemed acknowledge everything we brought up when we had a serious face-to-face talk and now things seem better. Fingers crossed things can stay this way. : )
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good luck babeez. Infact our situation just went from bad to even more ridiculous this week. huge bust up about not understanding how to get a child to meet us for a doctors appointment (was sitting in McDonalds waiting to get a tram across HK 10 minutes before a doctors appointment) and then about simply not turning up to collect a child from Kindergarten , child left stranded at school, Headmistress calls me ,I try to contact ANY of the helpers, no one is answering the phone (mobiles or land lines) , then when i ask why no one is answering their mobiles, get informed that she exceed her personal mobile budget this month and was cut off and next time i should pay her phone bill if i wish to speak to her(never mind the stranded child in Kindergarten). So anyway , she is off. We have one helper now, which I hope might work out simply because of the additional dynamic of trying to get 2 helpers to work together being removed.
Our schedules still fail on every level. There is nothing i can say or do or write that seems to impress any level of importance to a written schedule.
Do keep in touch with this forumn, i think judging by the amount of views divided by postings we have broached some quite critical subjects. I noticed though that the other well received forumn has a scarily similar first posting that only highlights everything said here. I hope here we can make some recomendations and draw a few conclusions so that future people interested in securing good domestic helpers for their FAMILY (ie with children) can look and learn from this thread.
I will now begin my search for a new domestic helper , who is happy to work with another domestic helper and report back also. Interviews , refferences , and ability to talk and demostrate answers to specific questions are my mission here. Other than that Im thinking of employing a local teenager that wishes to earn money to assist with the children after school. This might be the way ahead also.
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Hi, just wondering how it is going. I've been in similar situations before with helpers and kids. I've tried the retraining route etc but I think it's really hard tomake it work if the helper isn't committed to improving and I don't think yours is. It is possible to get a good helper - I've had two brilliant ones over the years (my frist one my friend would not release to me after I returned from overseas) the second one arrived 3 years ago from the Phillipines.
She arrived not being able to cook (or ever having eaten) Western food - within a week she was reading my cookbooks. I bought a lot of cookbooks with pictures so she could see what meals should look like when presented (prevents the one casserole no vegetables situation). Now she keeps a running shopping list on a whiteboard on the fridge, weekly she also writes up a menu and we discuss any changes to it if necessary. She writes out the shopping list, keeps 2100 squ ft of village house clean, looks after 2 dogs, 1 car and four people.
She does all this in the hours of 6 - 8pm but often has a break in the middle of the day. I don't police her time - she organises herself.
She does all this with a smile!
Admittedly I did set some ground rules from Day 1 like no salary advances, no using our phone (she can use her own if she needs to do during the day) and no borrowing money (having been through the helper/loanshark scenario).
We also respect her privacy and unless it is a real emergency never disturb her in her room once she is in it. We also bought her a Tv and DVd player when she first arrived and she has her own bathroom.
She is great - and I think the difference is that she wanted to make it work and she wanted to learn new skills.
It is possible to get a great helper who will work with you - trust your gut instinct or ask someone with a good helper to help you find a similar one - with small children it's just not worth taking the risk of a poor helper. If she can't follow your instructions with keeping the house clean is she going to know what to do when one of your kids falls over and bleeds (like kids do from time to time). As for not picking a child up that is definitely IMMEDIATE TERMINATION in my book - as long as you have told the helper from day 1 that your kids come first it should never, ever happen.
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Sorry for blagging on this thread been trying to work out how to create a new one and so far no luck.
I was wondering who speaks for domestic helpers if they are illl, go to hospital and are unable to speak for themselves? Who can act on their behalf and make sure they are getting the best care?
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There's a grey "Create New Thread" button on top of the topic listing page.
To answer your question, the employer is responsible for medical care, so technically it would be the employer.
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Hi axptguy, thanks... just found it. I'll try to take it there.
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six
15 yrs ago
It makes me sad reading all this talk about helpers. We have great helpers. Part of it is about managing them properly.
We pay a bonus every month which is a great incentive to keep things exactly the way you want them, if they're not, they don't get the bonus.
If you're having trouble with your helpers, there are many reference materials in Hong Kong to help you along. Try getting the book how to recruit, train and manage (?) a domestic helper.
If your boss put no time or effort into telling you what you wanted then you might struggle at work too. Plus these are people who often haven't been well educated. Try putting yourself in their shoes for a day.
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Dont be sad Six. Its a reality we are all adapting to and carefully figuring out different ways of resolving the multitude of issues of which management just plays one small part. Again , this thread is concerning families that have put the time and effort into explanations but still fail to move ahead and make progress.
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And to echo what a couple of people have said, you need to be realistic. I used to work in a hotel where people cleaning guest rooms were paid around $11K. General cooks were paid from that up to around $30K. For those wages (which for the cleaning jobs, of course are not that high, really) then professional cleaning, cooking etc was expected. What does a trained nanny cost? I can't imagine. I pay my helper $3580 a month, and I expect her to help me with cooking, cleaning, childcare, but it is help, that's all. If I needed something more then I would expect to pay more.
But to the OP, your helper is rubbish. Better luck next time! There are plenty of good helpers - hope you find one.
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"What does a trained nanny cost? I can't imagine."
In the tri-state area, which granted is pretty high income, a good nanny makes about US$40k/year. She does NOT clean, cook (except for baby) or do anything else. She works 5 days a week, 10 hours a day. So yes, you are absolutely right.
"If I needed something more then I would expect to pay more. "
Quite. Our helper is stellar. She makes way more than minimum plus a yearly bonus and gets tons of perks.. If you find a great helper and you want to keep her, find some way to make her want to stay. If you pay minimum and don't give any perks, don't expect any loyalty.
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Thanks axptguy. Just so we can put this all in context can you let us know:
1) Do you have children / wife?
2) Size of apartment
3) What do you pay her and the bonus?
4) What perks?
Given that many of us struggle to find a helper like you have, what things do you think contributed to the success of your helper? How did you get her and what were your interviewing tactics or was she "pot-luck"?. This would really be usefull info to help us understand different peoples success and failures and possibly where it all eminates from.
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1) yes and yes
2) 3 beds
3) I won't say but "significantly" more than min plus a bonus up to a month's salary
4) TV. Laptop with Internet access. Some extra free days. Extra paid trips home.
"what things do you think contributed to the success of your helper?"
Well, she has a great personality. Hard worker, cheerful. So that certainly helps. As employers we let her do her thing without too much jostling. She knows when the bathrooms need to be cleaned etc and it gets done without any need for our input. She is good at "reading" us and figuring out what we want. In military terms, we give her "missions" and she has to figure out how to fulfill the mission objectives by herself. We don't tell her how to do it. We don't even decide what she will cook unless we particularly crave something. Great food, healthy and varied, lands on the table. Good enough for us.
Note that this approach may not work, initially, with some or many helpers. However I think with time a helper should become more and more independent. There should be no need to manage the little things. And yet many employers still tell their helpers what to clean and otherwise do every day after months of employment.
Find someone you can live with and don't be afraid to speak up and give her feedback, both positive and negative. In fact, always give feedback even if it is just to say "you're doing a great job". If you are unhappy with something, say so. Do give her a chance to improve and praise her if she does.
We "communicate" a lot with our helper, chatting and talking all the time about the kids and things in general. This is important. I marvel at some of my friends when I seem to know their helpers better than they do! If you don't know your helper pretty well, there is no way to know if things are actually going well or not.
"How did you get her and what were your interviewing tactics or was she "pot-luck"?. "
Interviewed a bunch of candidates. She made a strong impression. Confident, cheerful, smiling. She "felt right" to us and this was clearly a person we could live with. No annoying traits immediately apparent (and still not apparent!). It is important to give "scenario" questions in which the candidate must think before answering, and where the answer is not just "yes" or "no".
There's a good book on the subject, recently published: http://www.havenbooksonline.com/books/catalogue/hiring-and-managing-domestic-help
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thanks axptguy ... do you and your wife both work? and how many children?
almost like i am interviewing you now ...lol
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My wife works. I work, well, a little. But you know, a guy at home is not typically the same as a woman. ;) We have 2 kids.
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i'm also caught in the same situations like many. I have a helper whom is new to hk (3 months plus to be exact) and we are in the midst of working things out.
But we have a major challenge. She can't speak much english and she have communications issues.
When she first arrive, she Don't listen to my instructions at all. She answered Yes even before i'm half way through of my intended instructions.
Sometime, she don't even reply nor look at me when i give her instructions. After 3 days, we realized that she can't understand much english and she is trying to avoid any communications because of that.
till date, I'm devastated. I've been trying to teach her using pictures cookbook, constant hands on teaching, accompanying her on marketing trips etc and it is tiring me out.
we only eat in 1 meal a day, perhaps 3 time a week. except for my daughter meals, twice a day which till date, i Still have to write it all down with plenty of "drawings".
I've even tried to pen down and translate our monthly "talks", instructions, lists and so on in tagalog using goole translate! (ahaha)
there are some improvement since her first day but after awhile, the heat from the motivational talks kinda sizzle off.
Thus i sat down with her again to have a serious talk, either take my instructions seriously and try to improve which in return will reap perks like yearly bonus.
but recently i realized with my going back to part time work. If she meet some accidents or emergency at home or outside with my daughter, is she able to get help or handle the situation?
I kinda think that it is a major concern now. she has a phone but doesn't pick up nor return my calls. Even when she goes around the corner with my little one to play at the playgrounds. She just come home smiling and Signs to me with few words that she is busy looking after my daughter.
I'm so caught in the dilemma, overall, she is not fantastic but she did manage to do the basic cleaning chores. At home, she doesn't know how to play and keep the kid entertained but she does keep an eye on her. she don't take initiatives to improve on skills nor communications but she will gladly do the chores when we request her to.
And the reason i'm still not letting go? as of date, i would think that she is hardworking, she doesn't give excuses and she have not present any bad attitudes.
Keep or not to keep?...... how should i handle it...
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Haziel, looks like you have got the wrong helper, did you actually interveiw her prior to employment? or did you have her pre-supplied by an agency, if she came from an agency, you could contact them and tell them about the miss-match, and to find a better match for your family.
If you have a young child, you need somebody who can play with the child, in the childs own language, if your helper cannot communicate properly with the child and spends a lot of time with her, then your childs language and cognitive skills will not develop as they should.
If you end up having to find another helper, when interveiwing them, ask questions about various scenarios, and how the helper would deal with it, this will give you a good idea of the level of the persons intellegence, language skills and common sence, you may have to interveiw lots before you find the best match for your family, but it will be worth it. Also try and find recommendations from expats leaving hK, of their great helpers, preferably before the employer has left so that you can meet and speak to them.
I admire the way you have tried to communicate so far, but in the end the childs development and welfare is uppermost.
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Haziel, I was in a similar situation. I found out my helper lied about her experience (miscommunications??) of childcare two months into the contract. She had never taken care of kids younger than 4 1/2 and yet she told me she took care of babies from 1 and up at the interview. I take care of my kids around the clock and she spent time with them only when I was in the shower and some odd occasion. She is basically our cleaning lady. Long story short, I had to go to a school event with my older kid and the school did not encourage parent to bring in other children in the family. It was an hour event and I left my 15 month old to my helper. Two months prior to that, I have my helper spending time with the baby and I gave suggestions and monitored her closely. She was opened to suggestion but her English was very weak so I wasn't sure how much she understood. I believe I could give her a chance. Long story short, I came home after an hour and 15 minutes and there was an accident but I could not get the story straight. She did not phone me after the accident and the wound was so deep I could see the bone cartilage. My helper was considerably hard working and I thought it wouldn't be a problem as I am a stay-at-home mom. Anyway, I let her go and yes, I should have done it when I found out about her lying about her experience. Cara is right, helpers are supposed to make our lives easier.
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hey all, thanks so much for the input. I guess, yes. When the helper is unable to handle situations, that apparently became a time bomb. and i don't think i will take a risk especially with a toddler involved.
I was contemplating previously as i reasoned that as long as her character and moral values are pretty decent and comfortable to live with perhaps i can train her.
But yes, now i've started questioning whether if it is fair for her to pick up english or cantonese within 1-2 months. i guess the answer is no. It's pretty hard for her and inevitably hard for me and my family too.
and yes, she lied to me regarding the language too. she was introduced to me by our previous part - timer whom is absolutely fantastic. But i failed to realize that their only intentions was to get her relatives over.
I was arranged for on a online interview without the video part of course as i was informed that she need to travel 3 hrs just to get to city and internet access. And she doesn't have a house nor mobile phone. and msn-ing is the best they could set me up with. So we chatted online on my requirements and etc... but it's now very obvious that she is not the one replying or even typing..
Arrgghhh, i'm so exhausted dealing with work , having to worry about the basic domestic things and welfare of my kid.
gosh, the term "money can't buy everything" is so real, especially a great helper...
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You are absolutely right. Money by itself can't get you a great helper. However money can help you retain a great helper once you have one.
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Hi all,
sorry to detour out of the forum topic. but i've a situation on hand and would like to hear from your experiences.
like mentioned previously, my helper came in direct under the recommendations of another helper whom we used at part timer previously.
After her arrival, we realized that she didn't speak much english except for basic words and our communications is a problem.
Having spoken to her last month about the need for her to improve, which she did but very slowly.
Today, she suddenly ask for a 1 day leave to go for a tour in macau on a weekday.
Obviously, no maid would ask for a off during weekday especially they have just arrived and not for holiday reasons to top it off.
I'm very seriously considering the fact that she wanted to scoot off as she asked me specifically for her passport. which i've kept for her as i'm booking her along for a flight to singapore soon.
Would you guys advise me to let her go or not?
or let her sign some letter stating that she claims to go for a off or something like that?
What will happen to employer of the maid took her passport and disappears?
thanks in advance.
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First of all, you should immediately give her the passport back. It is wrong (and I believe illegal) for you to keep it. All you need to book her on the flight is the passport number.
Secondly, if you don't want to give her the day off, then don't. This should have nothing to do with whether you think she intends to leave your employ or not. If she wants to leave, she'll find some way to do it. Heck, she could just quit. No need for all this supposed subterfuge, except that you took her passport so she may feel that she needs an excuse to get it back.
"or let her sign some letter stating that she claims to go for a off or something like that?"
No need for anything like that.
"What will happen to employer of the maid took her passport and disappears?"
Nothing. You report it to Immigration and move on.
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Yes. First return the passport...
Second: as per the contract, FDH would be eligible to 7 working days leave after an year. So if you do not want to give her a day off - dont. But she can take a non-paid off. Or ask you to consider that particular day as her weekly off. It's not a breach of contract.
Third: Either of you is fully entitled to end the contract by giving a month's notice or salary thereof. If she wants to quit she will.
Last: If she disappears, report it to Immigration dept. End of Story (for you that is)
On a practical note: you have probably scared her by keeping her passport. With communication being a problem she might be jittery about the situation. May be if possible just try to explain that all you want to do is apply for her Singapore visa.
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Thanks for the insight.
After penning down my questions on this forum, little did I realized that I actually got the answer at the same time.
The first thing I did was to return her the passport, apologised for the delay and told her to have fun. And we swop the off days around this time.
I guess, it's pointless to hang on if they didn't feel secured working and staying with me. Or perhaps, she really didn't know how to explained due to language limitations about wanting an off day on a weekday because of this and that...
If she went on the trip and came back like a polished gem, wonderful. Win-win suitations for us both.
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I agree with cara. If you polled a large number of employers and helpers, you would probably find some cultural traits that are common for one nationality. That doesn't really help you if you are employing one person. As cara says, individuals within a nationality can be so different to each other that trying to say "Filipinas are x and y while Indonesians are z" is meaningless.
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hi baybeez , wondered if you had an update or not. We have taken on a Sri Lankan domestic helper. Had very good refferences with previous family and made all kinds of accute observations when she came round for an interview. For us I hope we have turned a corner here. Its possible we may ask one of the domestic helpers to live out just so people are not living ontop of each other but time will tell.
I am curious how you have been getting on since all this time.
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McAlpine. Live outs for FDH are illegal.
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Hi McAlpine,
Funny you should ask how things are going. I am actually in the middle of stressing out about whether or not we are going to renew our contract with our helper in January.
After my first post, my husband and I decided to sit down with our helper and go over the list we came up with, it was really the same as the first list we had when she started. To start with, everything was great but then after a month or so, things would revert back to the way they were. I like our helper, we get on and our children like her but she never seems to stick to our schedule. We are very simple, I look after our children most of the time apart from when I work two evenings a week but simple instructions such as making sure there are vegetables and meat in the children's food is followed for only a fortnight, then I have to talk to her again because she is just making minced pork with tomato puree. I think this is our fifth talk. We just need a clean apartment and dinner but the same thing gets cooked every other day. I no longer eat at home and I'm just so tired of micro-managing everything. I have been looking at agencies and would like to hire an Indonesian helper but I feel bad about not renewing the contract but at the same time, she keeps telling me how easy she has everything compared to her friends so I don't understand why she can't just follow the simple instructions. The house is dirty when she is 'having a low', no vegetables are cooked even when I have stocked it with everything and now she has started to disregard my instructions such as not giving our toddler a pacifier and not re-using our children's unfinished milk in the morning from the night before. I know it sounds like a lot of nagging but I clean the house after I put the children to bed, have to check that there is no leftover milk kept in the fridge incase she gives it to our children in the morning and I ahve to oversee all the meals to make sure our children eat meat and vegetables. I take and pick up my daughter from school, take my son out the rest of the time so there really isn't that much to do. I am scared that the next helper will be worse so am feeling a bit scared to move on but at the same time, I feel that there must be a helper out there that can meet our needs. I understand our helper is not a good cook and my mum has shown her ways of cookign but after two days, it's back to tomato puree. Argggggggh! Are there good helpers out there?!?
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Don't worry about not renewing her contract, why do you want two more years of S**T, I am surprised you still have her, yes there are much better helpers out there, willing to listen and do a good job, go for it and get recommendations preferably of someone you know and dismiss the one you have and start a better one.
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Thanks Cara and Susie1, I feel better knowing that I am not being too mean. I guess in terms of finding a helper that is worse, I mean that I have heard the stories of helpers being in debt, borrowing money and stealing and I know our helper doesn't do those things. I guess we always hear the horror stories but noone really raves on about helpers making me believe that we are taking a really big risk hiring a new helper. My children are only 1.5 years old and 2.5 years old so I need someone I can really trust as they cannot really tell me what is happening when I go to work those two days. I am thinking of going through the Asiaxpat agency to see what is out there and haver already asked at another agency. I like that the helpers aren't in huge debt if I hire from this site but no way am I getting them to come to me, tried to arrange a meeting with five helpers last time, one turned up, two called to say they couldn't make it and the other two didn't turn up. I was walking around Central for five hours, I guess that's anothother thing that made me think that at least our helper would turn up on time. When I talked to three helpers through another agency that were already in Hong Kong, they turned me down when they found out I had two children and a small dog. Maybe they have had bad experiences. The agency I went to yesterday recommended hiring from overseas as the helpers that are already here tend to be very picky.
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Babeez
I've got a very good helper who has worked for us for 6 years soon and is now processing her 4th contract with us. She asked me to help her sister and her sister-in-law to find jobs in HK as they couldn't find one in their home-town. They are both experienced helpers but new to HK and my helper is willing to teach & guide them if you wish her to. Are you willing to hire FDH who has never worked in HK? If so, do contact me. Thanks.
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Babeez , it sounds like you live in my house ...lol. We have the same issues before except we have 3 children!!!!. So yes, when helpers hear that ..or they may have to 'job share' it can put them off and I guess thats not unreasonable given the breadth of employment possibilities here in HK. There is no easy answer. We think we have found the perfect helper now, spoke to her previous employer AT LENGTH who she worked for a long time and 'think' we understand the complexities of this new lady. What we do know is she is thoughrough, reliable and knowledgable and can cook and clean and very experienced with children. All the things we wanted. There may be some erhhh ... cough ... pottential future personality and ego conflicts but we are ready for that and flexible enough to accomodate if all the things listed above are met. We are paying her more money also but beleive we have finally got a person to live in our house who will be exactly what we need for the job. It is also all the things you have mentioned. I think you should continue to fight for all the things you need to make your house work. There are some compromises, we for instance both work but pretty much now do all those things that the helpers can not and there is some satisfaction at getting all those things done even though we end up exhausted at the end of the night. I think what I am saying is that the fight for what you want is worth it but it just takes a while to acheive. There are a HUGE amount of helpers NOT suited to your job requirements but there are also a few out there who may just be everything you originally needed. We also found out we were part of a mad network of gossip that certainly hasnt helped regarding previous helpers we have taken on but this kind of thing goes on and there not much you can do about it all. Stick to what you feel is correct.
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Thanks McAlpine and homely. All advice taken on board. I remember your horror stories, McAlpine, so happy you have found the right person. Hope it all works out. Homely, thanks for the offer, I will speak to my husband when he is back from his trip. It's like a rollercoaster ride, everything is great and then I think I will stick with our helper then she goes completely slack and then I look at finding a new helper but then she starts getting things done again. I feel like I am in a bad relationship! Up, down, up, down, up, down, so many talks that I can't talk anymore. Done with the guilt, it's an up now but I can't always be dealig with the fortnighly downs. Going to bring back my sanity and just go for a new helper, I think I have given our helper enough verbal input, lists and help. Urghh!
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Good for you. Always give people assistance and understading , but at the end of the day , if they are not interested, un-flexible, a potential danger to your children or simply unable to meet some standard requirements for a house hold with children (alot different from an apartment cleaning job) then the employment ends and you have to find someone who is. Its like that for any other job on planet earth.
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Hi Babeez, its a year on and we just hired a new helper. She is a lovely lady but this week we are starting to sit down and talk about the job and expectations. How are things with you?
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Thanks cara , she is a lovely lady but we are looking this week at weekly schedules and discussing a work plan etc , and a lot of the info in this column will be put to use. Didn't realize so much had been written 2 years ago , but its all quite valid and good.
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