Posted by
thegarty
14 yrs ago
Our helper recently used a wire brush to clean our brand new glass shower doors. There are scratches all over them (2 bathrooms) as a result. Only a few days before we had personally shown her how to clean the glass with newspaper or a cloth and window cleaner but were not specific about her not using a metal brush as we thought it was pretty obvious.
She has been really distracted lately as she recently bought a smart phone and is constantly updating her facebook and checking her messages. I feel if she was paying closer attention this mistake may have been avoided.
Should we make her liable? I doubt she has any money to pay for repair. Or is there a way she could buff out the scratches somehow?
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how deep are the scratches? - google the web for suggestions on how to remove scratch marks, otherwise you can call the supplier of the glass doors for tips.
it would be difficult to prove that her text and fb addiction are the causes for her lapse of judgement of which material to use for the shower doors
if her text and fb addiction are hampering her work duties, then by all means sit her down for a talk, and if it that does not work give her a written warning (ensure that it gets countersigned and witnesses signing on the document too)
for future cleaning jobs, it would be best at this point to give her written instructions on specific cleaning jobs. then supervise her a few times before letting her do it on her own. this is the only way you can "reprimand" her in the future in case she still insists doing it her way and causes damages to your stuff.
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I would ring a company that does car windscreen repairs. Or you could but some "pit filler resin" on line and after you apply it, you polish it with a cork. Do some digging on you tube and you should find some vid's to show you how to do it. I would be going with the windscreen guy as they are normally quick cost effective.
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Make her pay for it. Your DH might be dumb, but she cant be both dumb and blind.
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Oh please Wiz Bang ..... Written instructions how to clean something , witnessed by reliable person , countersigned , supervision for a few occasions , reprimands . She's a cleaner , uneducated most likely and likely to have experienced a good quality glass screen shower door for the first time in her life . She may even have thought confidently that she was doing a good job . Its unfortunate for thegarty that this happened but we are all paying a pittance for menial domestic cleaning . We do not need the "Secret Service" , ASIO or the reliable witness to counter sign anything . Allow her to do her job and if she continues to damage things after having it explained to her then make a decision on whether you want her to continue working for you . There will always be something they do incorrectly and sometimes with damage but my view is to accept it ....we get what we pay for . The cost of that is repairing or buying new shower screens .
.............It is obvious that rob-378 does not have and likely will never have the luxury of a domestic helper . He is too dumb and blind . Maybe he will find that offensive .....or is he too dumb and blind .?
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thegarty,
Roger9999 has given you an ingenius solution to your problem. You should just accept your DH's mistake because "she's a cleaner, uneducated most likely... (?)".. and you pay her a pittance!
And the next time she washes your car and leaves scratches all over it, you should bear the costs of that as well, since she is most probably "likely to be experiencing a good quality [car] for the first time in her life." And you should be accepting of this especially because "she may be confidently thinking that she is doing a good job".
Oh, and this a result of you paying a pittance for domestic cleaning , the cost being that you should also bear the costs of repairing or buying a new car!
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oh puhlezzz roger
these fdh can have lots of tricks up their sleeves. written instructions, written reprimands are necessary to avoid the fdh filing a concocted bad rap sheet on their employer with the labor dept.
yes they maybe simple cleaners, but how long will you tolerate them breaking your stuff?
so what - are you going to dismiss them based on them breaking stuff around the house? so what proof and evidence would you have without these written items? they could easily turn around and say they have been dismissed unjustly and illegally and that you have been making up stories, abusing them and not paying them the correct salary amount.
btw many fdh from the philippines are educated.
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I'm with madtown. Unless she is "actively" negligent, replace the glass and move on. It's not like she meant to cause the damage, right? We all make mistakes.
Now to minimize the risk of mistakes happening again. Form a rapport with your helper through regular communication. Explain how you want things done. Ask her if she has questions. Tell her to ask you if in doubt. She needs to trust that she will be treated fairly and not reprimanded for asking questions.
Certainly if she does this sort of thing all the time, it is another matter. But it it seems like an isolated incident.
The smartphone thing is a different matter and you may need to talk to her about that too. But it's not like the was texting and therefore used the wire brush.
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Yes .I agree . If your helper is cleaning the car for the first time , you MUST advise what to do and not do and especially where to be careful , in particular the upholstery and duco . But not thegarty , not me and not you would think to explain anything about cleaning a shower screen . I doubt that a highly educated young woman would have made that mistake . I doubt also if a university graduated helper would turn the hose on inside the car when you asked her to "wash the car , inside and out " .True experience with a wonderful cleaner but she was not experienced , worldly or educated . Common sense , by the employer , communication and tolerance . But you really have selected a handful in your helper if you need constant written and witnessed documents regarding cleaning methods . Underhanded , yes , attempts at being manipulative , contrite and outright dishonest are common traits and one needs to be cautious and aware........as do some helpers with their employers . Selection of an FDH with excellence in ability , honesty and experience can be a matter of luck in some cases . I have been blessed in finding excellence in both my cases . Both have graduated University (one in Manila , the other in Indonesia ) and both are working in HK to support their two adult children through university presently . Matters of contest or dispute on contractual matters need written record ....imperitive .....but on cleaning duties .....nah ! Making the helper pay for mistakes in cleaning where damage occurs ....NEVER . Tolerating continual mistakes in cleaning which cause damage to any property after being spoken to ......NEVER . The way I see it .
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Considering that the OP said ...
"Only a few days before we had personally shown her how to clean the glass with newspaper or a cloth and window cleaner but were not specific about her not using a metal brush as we thought it was pretty obvious."
... It would seem that it had been explained quite thoroughly how she was expected to clean the shower glass, but to then go ahead and completely disregard what she had been told to do and instead clean it with a wire brush until it was scratched (2 bathrooms, not just 1!!), I would personally consider that to be totally negligent. It's no different to telling your helper they must use a cool iron to iron your best silk shirt, only to find out that it's been burnt because she chose to use a hot iron ... do you then blame yourself for not specifically telling her NOT to use a hot iron??
I do agree with not expecting her to pay for the damage, but I would have some serious words with her and tell her that in future I expect her to follow my instructions exactly. However, if you do have valuable furnishings etc, that you want cleaned properly, with little risk of damage, probably best to do it yourself ... At the end of the day, it's all about common sense ... both the employers, and the helpers ....
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Sapphire my thoughts exactly. How could it not be negligence, when she disregarded previous instructions on how to clean them? How could it not be negligence that while leaving scratches all over them she didnt notice? We are not talking about one scratch, it is after all probably no less than 2m x 2m of glass in two separate bathrooms with "scrathes all over them".
Some of the soft hearted advice nearly brought a tear to my eye, but you need to remember that she is your employee and you should treat her no differently. It seems that some of the advice given to you has been from people who have never emplyed anyone and probably never will (other than their domestic helper).
In anycase you need to make it clear to your DH that you have limits on tolerance toward negligence, and also that she will have consequences for her mistakes. Once she realises this she will then begin to think twice and do once.
Accepting negligence is poor advice. Being blind to it is even worse.. As Wiz Bang pointed out, some DH's can have lots of tricks up their sleeves... dont be blind to this.
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I would give her a written warning about this saying if she does not listen to instructions re cleaning anything in your home, any further damage will not be tolerated and she will be terminated for negligence.State on the warning the damage she has already done with photographic evidence. Make sure warning is witnessed and signed, and keep a copy yourself. Always protect yourself with helpers they can turn very mean and tell a lot of lies. Even send a copy of warning to Imm with her details on it and ask them to attach to her records.
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madtown, Im sorry my remarks came across as condescending. By the way, thanks for your sarcastic tone.
In regard to your question, you can refer to Roger9999's first post: "There will always be something they do incorrectly and sometimes with damage but my view is to accept it ....."
She may have had little professional training as you say, but the OP has made it clear in her post that she gave specific instructions on how to clean them.. which were ignored. I agree with you on the point that people do make mistakes, but we are talking about an adult, who as far as we know is not visually impaired. Even if she chose to disregard the instructions given, she should have seen the damage being done. We are not talking about an item that was accidently dropped.. or one scratch. We dont know the DH's age, and if she is under 12, then i could be more understanding.
Also, i didnt specifiaclly say she should be held "financially" responsible. In my first post i said i would make her pay for it. You can pay for things in many ways, such as by losing your job... again its thegarty's call.
In anycase, you are entitled to your own opinion, and that is all it is.. just the same as mine. As you can see from the other posts, there are mixed views, and my opinion is no more correct than yours.
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Madtown is completely correct in being against expecting the helper to pay for damage as well as being in agreement that "you get what you pay for" it reverts to the employer's sense of tolerance (and intolerance of continued breakage or damage) . Common sense , guidance and sensible instructions are expected more from us employers than it is of our menial workers . Rob378 has displayed none of those qualities but was quick in his first reply to condemn the helper as dumb , blind and should be paying for the damaged screens . This leaves him vulnerable to both barrels , then going on to condescend and patronise others' and their opinions in his obnoxious and ignorant manner . He quite openly advertises his ignorance and his aggressive and unhelpful nature then gets indignant when someone returns the favour ....! Rather adolescent of him in each of his attempts to justify his misguided sprays . Thegarty said " I doubt she(the helper) has money to pay for repair" ...... then Rob tries to explain his way out of it saying that she should "pay" but not necessarily financially .........Maybe its the alcohol talking Rob. Would also explain your ranting and aggressive verbal .
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In my opinion the bottom line is this: A helper is an employee. The employer should treat her as such. Whether an employee works in a shop, in an office, in a factory or in a home she should not have to pay for damage caused at the workplace.
I always find it interesting how, when you substitute the word employee for the word helper, the discussion often changes. For some unfathomable reason many employers of helpers feel that helpers are not like other employees. They're "special" for some reason. I don't get it.
In this particular case, then. Reprimand the employee? sure. Fire the employee? maybe. Make the employee pay? That's just wrong.
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Madtown, point taken, but me thinks you missed a condescending comment prior to mine?
Roger, you clearly have a problem with comprehension or suffer from memory loss. I wrote "She MIGHT be dumb, but she CANT be both dumb and blind." Might does not mean IS.. you can ask any 4 year old to explian this to you. And your idea that is said she was both?? ..... *shrug shoulders...*
Furthermore, if you want to mention condescending then perhaps you can refer to your very first post: "It is obvious that rob-378 does not have and likely will never have the luxury of a domestic helper . He is too dumb and blind". The rest of your comments are not even worthy of a reply as they speak clearly about yourself rather than anybody else.
Now that you have shown your inability to comprehend, and exhausted your option to hurl abuse, i look forward with amuzement to your next post.
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I would say, get rid of her! She is obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed. And who knows what she'll do next? Scrub the back of your child with a knife?
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
She shouldn't be using her cell phone during work hours unless if it's an emergency. The damages were a direct result of her attention being drawn elsewhere, so yeah helper at fault.
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Semantics Rob ........ Paraphrasing and rearranging wording only highlights your attempts to rectify your insensitive remarks . Try not to dig yourself in any deeper .
Thegarty ,....... Were you able to repair the damaged screens ? Must you replace them ? Interested to know how you got on .
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
Madtown, I am really amused by your preconceived postings which hold little water in their argument. The parallels you draw on is both preposterous and puerile. Tell me, what reason would a helper have to use her cell (smart?) phone whilst cleaning the bathroom? The results of her doing this clearly demonstrated a lack attention the task at hand and financial affliction to her employer.
What if the task in hand was supervising young children at a paddling pool or walking a small child near a main road? The results could be far more catastrophic and damaging. I've seen helpers walking their dogs and paying little or no attention to their charge and just merrily chatting away on the phone.
Whatever rights and wrongs you may argue their case for, it still doesn't negate the fact that they are on duty. Similarly we can analogize if the security guard on duty of your residential building was too busy with Facebook to notice a burglary taking place, I am sure you'd be none too please.
It also states in their pre-contracts with the agencies that they 'promise' not to use their phones during working hours.
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Why shouldn't a helper be allowed to use her cell phone if it does not interfere with work? Is she a child? We've never seen a reason to ban the cell phone. Our helper is an adult and knows when it is not appropriate to use it.
Madtown and I often disagree but in this I agree with him, as on the fact that helpers should not be asked to pay for damages.
@Fixer: "What if the task in hand was supervising young children at a paddling pool or walking a small child near a main road? The results could be far more catastrophic and damaging. I've seen helpers walking their dogs and paying little or no attention to their charge and just merrily chatting away on the phone."
Those are obviously inappropriate times to use a cell phone. Hire a helper who can make reasoned judgements instead of imposing a blanket ban.
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
axptgy38, the 'blanket ban' as you put it, is a condition that they agree to on their pre contracts with the agencies and not one that I impose -read my comments again.
In this case and from the details supplied from the OP, if she was distracted and not paying enough attention to what she was doing despite being demoed a few days earlier. In your wisdom, would you consider this is a helper that can make a reasoned judgement? And looking at your earlier post, what would you suggest by way of a suitable reprimand -no t.v. for a week or early curfew perhaps?
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Yes I know it is not you imposing the ban, sorry. But whether they sign the blanket ban or not, it is in my opinion an crap idea since it implies from the get go that the helper cannot be trusted to use her head. That's not a good way to start a relationship with an employee. Certainly there are people out there who cannot be trusted to use their heads, but assuming all helpers are like that is insulting.
"In your wisdom, would you consider this is a helper that can make a reasoned judgement?"
Depends if this is an isolated incident. Since it seems it is not, I would say she does seem to lack judgement. I don't have all the facts, however.
"And looking at your earlier post, what would you suggest by way of a suitable reprimand -no t.v. for a week or early curfew perhaps"
Those are things you would do with a child, not an employee. The employer is responsible for her work, not her private live, and thus has no right to control such things.
The employer should have a sit down with her and give her a warning that she must improve or she will be let go. If she does not improve, let her go. Just like any other job.
The starting point must always be that the helper is an employee first and foremost. Unfortunately many employers consciously or not treat helpers like children. Not a good way to manage.
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I often disagree with axtpatguy but on this matter I agree with him 100%. The helpers should be treated as an employee and as employees they should not be made to pay for damages. You can caution your employee and the next step would be to fire them. I have said this before, the problem with helpers is that there is not much to incentives to get them to go the 'extra mile', and most want an easy-ish job. This is different to an office situation where the promotional prospects and bonus scheme get everyone to act appropriately or inappropriately (read Lehman brothers and Olympus scandal......)
I would also second that a blanket ban on mobile phone usage is useless. You need to find a helper that has enough sense and professionalism to use the phone at appropriate times. A blanket ban with a bad helper just drives them underground and they will use the phone when you are not watching.
Honestly thegarty, I would let this one go.
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No Fixer ....I cannot see anyone adhering to a "blanket rule" which forbids use of a mobile phone during working hours for domestic helpers . As stated , a helper's hours are normally 16/6 without official "breaks" in many incidents . And as in many cases , the helper is home alone without supervision . My slant on it is adopting a sensible , communicative and tolerant approach as an employer to his or her employee . It will soon be discovered if an employee is continually chatting on her phone to the point it affects her work standard and safety of child or pet . As in any employer / employee relationship , it takes a smarter employer to motivate and guide the helper into receiving her best work efforts than it does for an average worker to outsmart her employer . The onus is on us as employees . Surely one knows in very little time if they have a "dud" . Poor managers make poor employees . Poor coaches make poor teams . There are skills involved in bringing out the best efforts of an employee unless of course they are habitually dishonest , careless and lazy to begin with . Decisions on that behaviour are made easy .
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
No roger9999, read again -I am just stating the helpers agree with the agencies not to use their phones during work hours, not me implementing. I even contribute to my helper's phone bill due to the fact that I have to call her cell phone during work hours or she calls me.
I realize helpers don't always adhere to the rules and would not expect them to do so -after all you would not want someone to look after the household who cannot make an decisive action for themselves. However, I have seen helpers use their phones when it was blatantly obvious that it interfered with their duty. I have seen and experienced helpers letting their dogs run in front of passing traffic, run towards other dogs being taken for walks yet oblivious to whats going on around them and still chatting away. Do you think that's right? Do you think they are fit to be decisive when it's OK to use the phone in this situation? The employer is not always present to supervise and has trusted this person to do her level best to look after his loved ones and property.
Coming back to the OP, the helper was shown just a few days earlier on how to perform the duty and she clearly does it another way which in turn ruined/damaged his property. He suspects it was because she was distracted by her new phone. What do you draw from that.
Thanks for your insight in managing people and especially the employer/employee guidance; however in the real world not everyone has the luxury of affording the time to fully utilize these practices, which is why we hire helpers in the first place. Vicious circle I know, but there again............
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
And who is to they are the boss' of I wonder? Managers hardly. If they were butlers or housekeepers yes maybe. Just because a chambermaid knows how to clean hairspray off a mirror does not make her a manager or boss, just thorough training that's all. Next thing is the road sweepers will be managers just because they Know how to dispose of a dead rat.
HK has a many problems going for itself, and being too PC is at the top of the list.
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"the problem with the FDH scheme is that it makes managers or bosses out of people who have absolutely no business being anyones boss. "
Hardly the biggest problem with the FDH thing. ;) But yes, definitely a big problem. Actually the issue is deeper than that: Most FDH employers don't think of it as being managers. And even if they do, they do not seek to acquire the skills needed.
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Well put madtown. It astounds me that people hire a helper and then don't explain the job. A simple schedule, a list of tasks and regular communication are basic things that would make many problems people have go away. To add insult to injury, a few months later the employer will often complain that the helper isn't doing a good job. When I ask if they've talked to their helper about it, or given her a task list, they look at me as if I've grown a second head.
BTW all the things you mention are explained in the book "Hiring and Managing Domestic Help". A book that most FDH employers should read IMHO. A first step towards becoming a good DH manager.
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Thanks for the comments and advice everyone. Appreciate everyone's opinions and insight. Since the incident we have spoken to our helper about the mistake and about appropriate use of cell phone within work hours. She has since been much more attentive and we are happy to accept that like any employee, mistakes do happen and we are happy that she has listened from it. We have even suggested she uses YouTube on her phone to find more information about cleaning tricks if she is ever feeling stuck for an answer and we arent around. As for the shower screens, yeah they're still scratched... But I am confident that this is a one off and to let it go. Thanks everyone.
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thegarty, it is nice to hear that you are turning a negative into a positive.
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Good work ....well done .
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Fixer, agree with you 100%.
IMHO when you hire a DH, surely you would expect them to have training and/or experience (jsut like any employee). We are talking about cleaning here, not splitting an atom.
Employing local people, I have never had such a problem, foremost because they work for a company which holds them accountable for mistakes. Once this is clear to them, problem solved. Think twice, ask twice.. do once.
thegarty, im glad she has taken on a more mature approach.
Roger... you continue to amuze me.. keep the comments coming!
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"IMHO when you hire a DH, surely you would expect them to have training and/or experience (jsut like any employee). We are talking about cleaning here, not splitting an atom."
Not necessarily. Remember that many come from very poor homes. They may not have had indoor bathrooms, washing machines, tile floors or even electricity. We take these things for granted but they may only have seen them when they come to HK. They do not have learned to deal with such things with a young age, leaving them without the least clue.
Add to that the fact that they may be afraid to ask for fear of being fired...
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
"IMHO when you hire a DH, surely you would expect them to have training and/or experience"
True, most agencies require their helpers to go through basic training like cleaning, cooking, ironing and vacuuming. May sound mundane, but many do not know what a vacuum cleaner does. Last agency I used even had Sunday classes for cooking and Cantonese lessons, which I thought was great that here was an agency providing post induction support.
What I've also found is that many do oversell themselves in their capabilities stake and for this reason they are not only doing a dis-service unto their employers, but also themselves.
Bottom line is you do what is and how the task is taught and if you're not sure ask.
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Fixer, overselling yourself to an employer is hardly unique to DH. ;)
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Obviously, the helper didn't follow instructions, the records has be taken down. As for neglecting the job, (no matter for what reasons), you will need to have more evidences,focus on what jobs are neglected and put it as record. Phone, sex or personal issues are very trick
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Personal issues are ricky issues, so we better not to even to talk about it.Because you might get accused that you interfere the helper's personal matters. Focus on the duties that were neglected and put them as records for lawful termination.
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The maximum compensation you can deduct from the salary is quite low, maybe around some 300 dollars. You need to check the regulations to verify the amount.
Since she was given clear instructions but ignored them and was so inattentive as to cause multiple scratches on two glass doors, I would make a deduction to her salary and possibly issue a warning, and in any case record the event and ask her to pay more attention in the future. She is an employee and should be treated as one.
I would also ask her to limit the use of her cell phone during work, and make sure that she has enough rest time and breaks from her work.
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jgl
13 yrs ago
The above post is correct and amazing that it's taken 45 posts of random analogy, heated argument, spurious opinion and the occasional usefully considered reply for someone to point out an actual fact.
This is something that is covered by the government issued FAQ that anyone who should be aware of before either employing a FDH:
Q3.6 Can an employer deduct the helper’s wages to compensate for damage to
goods caused by him/her? What other items may an employer deduct
from the helper’s wages?
A An employer can make deductions for damage or loss to the employer’s
goods or property directly attributable to the helper’s negligence or
default. In any one case, the sum to be deducted shall be the cost of the
damaged item, subject to a limit of HK$300. The total of such
deductions shall not exceed one quarter of the wages payable to the
helper in that wage period.
http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/FDHguide.pdf
It's good to see that the problem has been resolved, but having lurked on the helper forum for some months now, this thread is an example of why I generally avoid posting- the useful info to uninformed BS ratio is just too skewed.
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