Posted by
susannah
20 yrs ago
Hi All,
We were looking for a helper for our girls for about 20 hours a week. We were offered a full time helper but she would have to live out as we live in serviced accomodation. We were happy with this arrangement until reading this site, as now it seems that it may well be illegal. The agency persuaded us that this was fine, can anyone tell me if that is so? and what penalties we would be exposing ourselves to if not. Is it right that the agency pushes this onto us if it is illegal?
Cheers.
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No matter what the sentence will be illegal is illegal. Dont just blame the agent for trying to push you into the situation. You should protect yourself by yourself by reading the information issued by the Immigration Department about employing a domestic helper. A live-out full time domestic helper is ILLEGAL. You know the truth and the law. If you still want to risk it, that wl be entirely your own fault and nothing to do with the agent.
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I was under the impression if it is an arrangement mutually acceptable to you and your helper that the immigration would take a different view?
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ness
20 yrs ago
Susannah - some poeple do still legally have the right to employ a live out foreign domestic helper. This is if they had a live out dh already before 1 April 2003 when the law changed. They can continue hiring live out dh's as long as they do not go for six months without a helper. It is definitely illegal unless you are in this category. There are people who break the conditions, but as many helpers contractors are asked for their ID cards when they sign inot a security building you run the very real risk of being reported to immigration. Have you tried the labour department for a local domestic helper? Or just keep advertising for a helper who has permanant residency - there are some around.
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ness
20 yrs ago
I have been doing a search out of interest to see if there have been any people fined/jailed for having a live out helper. I did find this little snippet on a website specifically for migrant workers
May I live away from my Employer’s home?
Under the employment contract, your Employer is required to provide you with free accommodation. If you and your Employer have agreed on living-out arrangements, you should inform the Immigration Department of such arrangement. The letter of notification should be signed by you and your Employer.
So perhaps you could contact the immigration department and get permission since you are in serviced accomodaiton. You never know until you ask. Also the reason that they brought in the rule about not living out was to encourage people to employ the local domestic helpers. I you have looked and been unable to find one with sufficient english skills to look after your girls you could perhaps use this as one of the main reasons why you need a foreign domestic helper with English language skills. The immigration department issue visa vairations all the time, be it for dependeants who want to work (me) to dh's who want to learn to drive, or employers who need dh's to start right away instead of returning to the philipines while their contracts are processed.
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Thank you for confirming what we thought!!
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To both Susannah and ness, although this is none of my business, I cant help inputing this because ness's information is SO misleading. Ness, you did not read the whole thing! Here it is:
Can I live away from my employer's home?
No. You should work and reside in your employer's residence in accordance with Clause 3 of the standard employment contract. Your employer is required to provide you with free accommodation as per the standard specified in the "Schedule of Accommodation and Domestic Duties" of the employment contract. (For those live-out arrangements which have been approved by the Director of Immigration before 1 April 2003, the helper is allowed to reside in places other than the employer's residence provided that the employer continues to employ foreign domesitc helper without a break of more than 6 months.) So the first sentence in the answer is so important and how COULD you miss it?! While the employer has the entire responsibility to check it out directly with the Immigration Department, others, please, if you dont know the law, please dont pretend that you know.
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Have never said that I knew the law, we are new here and was actually asking for advice as there are many conflicting opinions on here. Not sure why this thread seems to rub you up the wrong way Mighty?
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ness
20 yrs ago
Might - I think you will find that I told Susannah that it was a stipulation that domestic helpers signing contracts after 1 April 2003 have to live in and that it was illegal to do otherwise - except that there is the possiblility when you investigate further of getting permission from immigration for your helper to live out because your apartment is too small or as in Susannah's case she is in a serviced apartment. So I don't actually think that the reply is misleading as long as you are up front and go and get the permission from immigration - which I encouraged her to do. So if you read my answer properly it is in no way misleading.
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Your answer is definitely misleading. You missed the most important bit of the information. The law is saying that the DH has to live in and that the employer has to provide her with free accommodation. Susannah is a newbie but you are not. So I wonder why you gave out such a misleading info like this.
Yes this is 'rubbing me up in the wrong way" coz I want poeople to respect the law, no matter you are an expat or a local. But of course, at the end of the day, it is you, the employer, who has to be responsble for it.
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suze
20 yrs ago
We can only respect the law when the accurate facts are known. Of course I do not want to break the law but just wonder why there are many conflicting opinions. Ness is not the only person I have heard that if you present your case to Immigration there is a chance that they may allow it. Can I ask how you know so much? Have you been in a similar position?
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Lowla
20 yrs ago
I used to work with employment gency in HK,live out maid is possible, even you don't need to mention it to your application form in the immig. you just need to shut your mouth and talk to the maid as well,and find her a boarding house just near your place but you need to shoulder everything like boarding house, food and transportation..
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ness
20 yrs ago
Lowla - I was actually encouraging people to LEGALLY arrange for their helper to live out. It is possible and immigration has a procedure and process for this that is legal - it is just not widely publicised. I think it is lunacy for an expatriate to jeopardise their work permit, visa, or reputation with their company for domestic help around the house when their are plenty of legally available alternatives. I also think it is horrendous that people with means to fight a case where it brought against them - locals or expatriates - also take down with them a domestic helper, desperate for a job so will agree to anything (who is usually the one who does the jail time and ends up in debt, without a job and record with immigration stopping them from getting a new one). At no time have I suggested that anybody break the law, just that they investigate the legal options available within the law.
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To Lowla, everything is possible of course, if you think that the contract is between you and the helper and nothing to do with the Immigration Department. There are a lot of people (locals) paying less than the minimum wage to their helpers (especially to Indoenesian helpers who are first time to Hong Kong). They think that is OK too because they keep their helpers' mouth shut, what do you think?
Sabi, if your widow friend is only earning $7000 per month and has a family to raise, you think she is able to pay $3270, $400 levy, air ticket, food and accommodation just to the helper. Do a simple calculation and then you will get the answer. Most probably the helper is shared by someone else as well. Or she is not the sponsor.
Suze, I was in the same situation 3 years ago when I employed my first helper. So many people telling me that a live out helper is possible and our family wanted a live out one. But the answer from the Immigration Department is a definite NO as they had changed the regulation on the live out arrangement since 2003. There will be a way round it, if you want to. As Sabi suggested, Immigration is the final arbiter.
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Stanley HK, well pointed out. It is ONLY an immigration rule and not a law. So people think that they can easily get away from it.
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Sabi, I m not interested in your widow friend's household matters so let me just answer your query. My first application for a DH was 2 to 3 year ago but definitely it was right after the change of the regulation so my answer from ID was a no. I was hoping that they wld accept my application for a live out helper (cldnt afford her to be live in) but was rejected.
I personally, also like to give opportunities to locals but when it comes to looking after children and housework, there's no way that you can get someone similar to a DH, both timewise and moneywise.
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rhems
20 yrs ago
Hi there,who ever want a helper im available next months,live in/liveout, been working here 10 years in a chinese and western family,pls contact me,tel# 94028851
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I hired a helper in January. I really wanted a live out and was told by a lot of people that "there was a way around it." I called immigration and was told there was NO exceptions any more. I asked specifically, what if I don't have room in my flat for someone to live and was told that if she doesn't live in my flat then I can't hire her.
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byles
20 yrs ago
I need someone who can sponsor or can be a full time worker. My last day will be on May 30, but i need to be back for a month in the philippines, I can be back for july. Thanks. 95887224
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No matter what are the arguments here...only thing is for sure you cant let your helper live-out(though many people still doing this)I have got some informations that in some cases.... if you are find guilty its not necessarily that immig will put you into jail...you have to pay the fine which is 50K each the employer and employee and the employer can work in the civil service of the government with no salary(in exchange of not going to jail.)and for the helper she will be in jail for few months and then be deported from HK can't come back anymore bec any DH who commits criminal case in HK cant come back to HK anymore.
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and By the way byles, just a bit of advice...go to the Domestic Help section and post your pic there...you have to visit asiaxpat office for that. Putting your post here wont help. I wonder why now Ed didnt delete post like that anymore.
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