Posted by
jingaling
18 yrs ago
I would like to ask my helper to come home at 8:30pm on Sundays. Is that too early? Are there any rules about how many hours they can stay out?
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Nuri
18 yrs ago
Mine comes at 8:00pm. She is free at 8:00pm on Sat. night but is not having nights out. This way, she is having 24-hour rest as by the regulations.
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I ask my helpers to come home no later than 10:00pm, if they are going to be late (not often) they will call.
I agree helpers are full grown adults, but b/c domestic helpers's work place is my home/house... I believe some "exceptions" are made and set by employers, as long as they are agreed between the helper and the employer.
8:30pm is a little early though....
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mrsl
18 yrs ago
I know that people have posted that legally DHs are required to have 24 hours off (so technically 8.30pm Sat to 8.30pm Sun is acceptable), but let's face it; they only get one day off a week. Surely theit normal sleep tme does not count as their day off? The rest of the time they are under your roof, which is as much of a pain for them as it is for you. If they have to be home particularly early on Sunday, that precludes them from having dinner with friends etc.
I can understand why if, for example, a helper kept falling in the door drunk at 4am, waking up half of the house and neighbours, that an employer would need to have a chat about limits (especially if it affected the work of a DH who was solely responsible for childcare on Mondays). Other employers may be concerned for their helper's safety travelling home if they live in remote areas etc.
Generally though, as cara said, if your helper is a responsible adult 6 days a week, why treat her like child on a Sunday?
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Nuri
18 yrs ago
If a helper has to take care of a baby at night than she should have good rest. Spending nights out will not help it. My helper, for example, agreed that from 8pm-1am every night she’ll have a rest (sleep) without interruptions while I take care of the baby. From 1am to 6 am I sleep without interruptions. This schedule would be impossible if she came home whenever she wanted.
BTW, we have similar arrangements for the day routine, but it's irrelevant to the thread.
So, every case is different.
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Maybe so Nuri but she's still entitled to her day off and she should be able to enjoy her free time the same as we would expect to enjoy ours. A helper’s life should not be to live and breathe work for the benefit of an employer they are entitled to have a life of there own too.
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mrsl
18 yrs ago
Nuri, your helper's responsibilities are very different to those of mine (cooking and cleaning with the odd bit of babysitting).
I cannot count the number of times that I came off redeye flights and went straight into the office to work. I am certain that my performance was not at 100% on those days, but there is NO WAY that my employer could or would have insisted that I come back the day before so that I could be rested for work.
Helpers get a lot less time off than I ever did and I think that we owe it to them to let their hair down every now and then.
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Wow! 1am to 6am!!!! I hope that she is well paid. When my youngest was born, I booked a maternity nurse to give my wife a break (she cancelled the booking, but that's a longer story). Basically, it costs a fortune for someone to be 'on call' those few hours, and that's with no daytime work hours.
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cd
18 yrs ago
My helper doesn't come home sunday evenings, he goes to his families flat on sat night and comes back about 6.45 mon morning. I don't think you can specify a time, and certainly not 8.30, thats the time you'd be expecting a 12 year old home not an adult.
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My helper friend goes out from her employer home @ 9am she needs to clean up everything before she go out.Curfew : 9 pm needs to tidy up everything right after she come back.Take are of baby the whole night (6 mos old),woke up the following morning @5:30 needs to prepare the 7 yrs old kid to school.
During her time off on sunday,she would spent the whole day sleeping in my helpers room as she seems to be so tired for the whole week working almost 24 hrs a day.
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I told her once when I saw her but she just said,very difficult to break the contract and her employer may not give her a good recommendation to future employer.
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mine goes out at 5pm on sat, and doesn't return till 8:45am on monday. sometimes, i am not sure if i am being taken for a ride. thing is i have agreed to this and it will cause some bad feelings if i reversed it now.
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winter2 if you wanted to go out Saturday night then your helper should be ok with that if you give her plenty of notice. You could gently remind her that you could be like others and expect her to work late every Saturday and return Sunday evening rather than Monday morning.
If you don't really need her then I think your doing the right thing as it gives you all some time apart and some privacy.
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After 8 years of having helpers who came home around 8pm and cleaned the kitchen (even after I said that it was not what i expected) I found it very disconcerting when my previous helper came home at 10pm and went straight to her room. It turned out that my expectations were different to what I had thought they were. I had a bit of internal conflict about that one - "she'd entitled to do that" vs. "it's my house and I don't like feeling uncomfortable about this".
I was relieved when my helper left (to emigrate to the US to join her family) and I made sure that one of my questions at helper interviews was, "what do you do on sundays?"
I think that it is fair that, if a helper likes to stay out late on a sunday (as many do), she should be entitled to do so but I prefer helpers who like to come home early, as a matter of their own choice. That way, our expectations match and I'm not imposing a curfew or restricting her unfairly. This isn't a condition of employment - it is to do with personality and life-style. Interestingly, i found that most of the helpers working for local families were home by 8pm and saw it as a normal part of their employment to clean the kitchen/living areas on Sunday evening.
My current helper and i have worked out an arrangement where, in exchange for taking the dog for a toilet break and sometimes cleaning the kitchen (not often because I have usually done this before she gets home)she gets extra annual leave (1 day for 2 months (8 Sundays)). She's happy with this because she's home anyway and likes the extra leave and she gets to talk to all the other helpers catching up on Sunday night (I gather it is a bit of a scene)and it helps me out as well. So my experience is that if you get the right personality/life-style mix then your expectations will also match and neither party will be disappointed.
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Put yourself into a helper,will you be happy to have that kind of working arrangement? You are working very far from your family,far from your home and you can only had a day to meet your friends and family and yet you need to hurry to go back and still need to do the household chores because your employer ask you to do so.
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I agree miming, i think sadly people seem to be unable to do anything for themselves once they have a helper instead of being delighted to have an extra pair of hands around to ease the load.
Of course this is not everyone but we seem to hear alot about it on this forum.
Proper time off is esential to everyone's well being, we all need to chill and recharge the batteries or we will be unable to perform.
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jwm, I disagree that my arrangement is "clearly illegal".
Any "work" that my helper does on a sunday is at her discretion. It is not part of her employment duties and she knows that Sunday is her day off. If she didn't want to do it she wouldn't have to (we couldn't make her do it or terminate the contract and she would have grounds against us if we tried). I believe that, if this case came before the tribunal we would have reasonable grounds for arguing that this practice does not contravene the provision. But, as you say, it is a matter between the helper and me and I think it unlikely that either of us would test this provision with our situation. We are both happy with it and it works for us.
i also disagree that an employer has no concern with what employees do on their days off. In every job interview I ever had employers asked about my interests and hobbies. It seems to me to be an especially pertinent question with domestic helpers when they are living with the employer. As i said previously, life-style and personality compatibility are just as important for the domestic relationship to work.
Miming, if you are asking me if i would like my helper's working arrangement, I reiterate that i don't ask my helper to do anything on a sunday and have told her this. The arrangement arose because my helper was going down to meet her friends and said that she would take the dog with her. I know that it is not a hardship for her to do this but I wanted to compensate her for doing me a favour and didn't want her to feel that we were taking advantage of her.
Would i like my helpers job? No - not many of us would but as far as domestic relationships go it is pretty good and she has said that she wants to emigrate to Canada if we leave HK rather than look for another family here. i think she's happy with her job. We get along well.
My point is that not all helpers like being out all day. Fine if they do but don't put all of them in the same basket (they're not all the same!)and find one who is compatible with you.
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jwm, I do not "require" my helper to work on sunday - I don't ask her to do anything and have told her she doesn't have to do what she does. As I understand it this provision is intended to provide employee protection so that an employee has legal redress against an employer working her unfairly - not the case here.
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Common sense says if someone is working all the time they will be tired and fed up. I would sooner give my helper as much time as can off and keep her fresh for when i do need her. After all there is only so much housework you can do and I’ve got pretty good hands of my own and love to look after my own kids as I’m lucky enough to not have to work.
I just hope the same people who expect so much are not complainers in there own line of work.
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To be fair to mborderform, if the DH decides to do a quick clean rather than leave it until Monday, that's her decision. I'm afraid that I know plenty of employers who leave the dishes pile up on a Sunday, and may not expect their helper to clean them there and then, but do expect them to be done on Monday. In effect, they are only allowing their DH to postpone her work by a day.
As far as employers taking an interest in outside activities are concerned; mine would have definitely taken an interest if they would have brought its reputation or my judgement into question (reminds me of an old thread here). I think employers with live in employees are allowed to take some interest. If the DH is responsible for childcare and has very different principles/morals etc. from the employers (from religious fanatacism, dealing drugs to prostitution), then I think the employer is allowed to care. Just like we cannot interfere in how our helpers manage their money unless there are money lenders knocking at our own doors. However, the employer has absolutely no right to say that she should be in bed by x.00pm or that she should socialise in y area, or even that she only allowed to drink z units of alcohol etc. (unless, as mentioned above, it affects her performance during work days).
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I dont understand why employers just leave the mess,dishes piled up on sink and waiting the helper to do when she come back at night.Why not do it yourself?I would be happy to do all the household chores during my helper's off.
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This is OUTRAGEOUS! Let us take a fresh look at these threads. These are human beings, not trained animals. Helpers in HK are mistreated abused and underpaid each day. They are grown women who were born into an unfortunate social/political situation. Can you imagine leaving your children behind to toil 16 hours a day for less than $4000 a month?
Any work on Sunday is wrong. The employer should see to this. Minimum wage should be at least 8000. The work day should be a legal maximum of 14 hours except in rare circumstances an every helper should have a minumum food allowance(documented) of $500. Every helper should have a private room or share a room with another domestic helper, but if you cannot afford a nice space for a helper, do not have one.
If you are a helper who has been mistreated or an employer who agrees with me, please PM me, as it is time for things to change!
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Cara, i don't know why you say 'congratulations" but also that there is a problem. For the benefit of everyone (particluarly miming, moppet and jwm)
I'm not requiring my helper to come home early on Sunday. She does so of her own choice. She then goes to see her own friends. She takes our dog (of whom she is very fond) with her. I feel that I should not exploit this and voluntarily compensate her with time off.
As Dora notes, the cleaning that my helper does on Sunday night is what she would otherwise do on Monday although it is rare that she would need to do this as I have usually done it by the time she gets home.
I am comfortable about our situation from a legal and moral perspective and don't understand why it apparently offends some who have responded to my post.
I have said that helpers who want to stay out later have a legal right to do so and some employers are happy (in fact prefer) them to do so. At the same time, others prefer helpers to be home early, as do some helpers. It is a question of matching expectations so neither is disappointed. As I said before, the respective lifestyles need to be compatible because, unlike other employer/employee relationships, we live together.
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The average wage of a worker in Hong Kong was just under $12,000 a month, according to the labor department. I do not believe that most were traeted as many DHs are. While many are free to share food, it is common to receive very little food from your employer and the food is rationed carefully.
I do not want to hear about how DHs have it better than locals. If this is ever true, it is a sad exception and does not justify their treatment.
I have seen such discrimination in HK and mistreatment of Filipinas and Indonesians that I feel compelled to speak up. I am deeply saddened by what I see.
I see it on this board too. These petty problems with employers. Do some of your own dishes. Walk in her shoes for a day.
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tess
18 yrs ago
I think some of these situations, curfew can be considered.
-Her first time in HK
-She is single, young and naive
-She needs to take care of young children during the day time
I asked my helper to come home at 9 when she first came to work for me. Every time she asked to stay late, I would grant it to her. So far She had come home drunk twice and threw up. Her work was quite a mess even when she hadn't been drinking. Whether you are a local worker or domestic helper, it is the employee's responisbility to come to work sober. With my work, I can't drink 12 hours before I turn up at work.
I agree with some of you. If your helper is mature and has self discipline, most importantly, she behaving like an adult, she should be treated like an adult.
For quite a few months after the second drinking night out, I asked her to come home at 8pm. Now that she is improving, I have extended one more hour until 9pm.
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Mborderform
You say you don’t have a curfew etc now but you stated very clearly that you felt disconcerted after having helpers for 8 years who came home at 8.00 and cleaned up the kitchen to then have a helper who came home at 10.00 and went straight to her room, and that you where happy when she left.
This clearly implies hat you do want her home when you say and you do want her to work for you once she does.
A helper should not have to come home and clean up stuff that an employer was to lazy too during her day off. I bet your helper has to complete everything before she is free to go and you should have the decency to do the same.
We all know that domestic helpers are cheap and that’s why people have them, but if you can’t afford to pay more than minimum then you can still do the right thing and not work them so hard and be kind in other ways. (and i know some employers do this)It seems as I’ve said before people lose all ability to do things for themselves once the employ a helper.
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Moppet, you have made a number of value judgments which are unwarranted and incorrect. It baffles me why you would respond so emotionally and make those assumptions about my situation. To respond to the points you make:
1. I've never had a curfew with any of my helpers;
2. i do prefer that my helper comes home early. No doubt if the first helpers came home later this would be what I came to expect but, as i said, they voluntarily determined how they spent their day off and I became used to it.
3. I am unapologetic about this preference. It is my house and i have the right to feel comfortable in it. What this means is that a helper who likes to stay out late would not fit here. A helper who likes to come home early would. The fact that it is different to what works in your home or not what you would choose if you were a helper doesn't make it unfair, abusive or harsh. It also doesn't give you the right to make value judgements about me, my household and my relationship with my helper.
4.There are a lot of helpers who come home early BY CHOICE. Like all expats, there are "career" helpers who spend their working lives in Hk and tend to have active social lives. On the other hand, there are those who come to work for a set period of time and a set goal. i have found that the helpers who have a set plan have less active social lives - they typically go to church, see their friends for lunch and come home any time between 4 and 9. i choose these types of helpers. Of course the down side is that these women achieve their goals and move on (three of my previous helpers emigrated to Canada, two went home to start their families). I'd also add that a helper who likes to stay out late is not necessarily any happier than one who doesn't. I'll say again, it is matter of choice.
5. Before my children were in full-time school, I had two helpers for a number of years. They would alternate their days off so i always had Sunday help - i didn't ask or expect the person who had the day off to come home at any particular time and i didn't need them to do anything on Sundays. THEY STILL CHOSE TO COME HOME!
6. What leads you to think that I don't look after my children and am lazy? You would lose your money if you bet on this. I do find that i clean the kitchen earlier on sundays than i would if it was up to me but, knowing that she will do it when she gets home, means that I do it first to make sure that she doesn't have do it. It is not in my interests to exploit her goodwill.
7. i don't know why you have inferred that i pay my helper the minimum wage, work her "so hard" or lost my ability to do anything for myself. For the record, my helper is paid $5000 p.m. plus $500 food allowance, she has the largest helpers' room I've seen in my 16 years in HK with her own fridge and air-con plus money and holiday bonuses. I believe that she's happy with the choices she's made.
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As stated already it’s your own comments that resulted in my opinion and thoughts,nothing else
Example below
“As Dora notes, the cleaning that my helper does on Sunday night is what she would otherwise do on Monday although it is rare that she would need to do this as I have usually done it by the time she gets home.”
For the record thought it was only the initial part of the response that was directed at you I obviously didn’t make that clear so I apologies if you misunderstood, the rest is a general comment based on what I have read on this website and my own observations and conversations with people who employ a DH.
I have no desireor intention of getting into a tit for tat with a complete stranger though that’s really not what the forum is for a question was asked and many people have given there opinion on it so it’s pretty much a done deal.
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Moppet, if you "have no desireor intention of getting into a tit for tat with a complete stranger ", you really shouldn't write offensive and inflamatory statements such as the following (which was clearly directed at me):
"A helper should not have to come home and clean up stuff that an employer was to lazy too during her day off. I bet your helper has to complete everything before she is free to go and you should have the decency to do the same."
Did you really think that I would not respond to your questioning of my "decency"?
Having said that, I accept your apology and do not propose to explain my position further. As you say, that's not the purpose of this forum.
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I don't see why it is a problem to set a reasonable curfew because we are ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for our helpers ie. if she hurts herself and needs to go to hospital, we have to pay the costs.
I ask my helper to come back by 10pm and she will tell me if she will later...which doesn't happen a lot. My sister in law set a 9.00pm timeframe....
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I guess some people think it's a little over the top when we are talking about adults annieh. Adults that often are responsible enough to care for our kids but then we decide they are not responsible enough to decide a sensible time to come home.
I’m not sure what accident may fall upon a person at 11pm that couldn't happen at 10pm though.
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That's very true jwng however this is a DH forum not a phillipnes forum so i's to be expected the topics covered will be about DH's.
nobody has to defend themselves the fact is everyone has a different opinion and are entitled to voice it. If you do post you have to expect that people will not always agree with you it's just the way it is.
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jwng,
What are you basing your comments on? You are saying that Filippinas in S'pore are treated worse but complain less? I am not saying that they are well treated by any stretch of the imagination, but where do you get your "fcts" from? They are not generally happy workers. Often, the actual living conditions are better than those in Hong Kong.
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So the DH's in HK should just be grateful that they are not beaten or imprisoned?
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jwng,we are not talking about beating and hanging DH here,we are talking about how we treat our helpers ,talking about working arrangement for helpers.And so,if you are a domestic helper yourself and you are being ask by your employer to come back early during your day off,clean up the kitchen after you come back form your day off will you be happy with that?
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Wow! This is the first time I've checked out the DH threads. I had no idea there were curfews for helpers! After following all the replies and arguments, particularly the one where she needs to be home early if she's looking after the kids, does that mean that the parents also have to be home by 8pm on Saturday evenings as they'll be the ones in charge on a Sunday? Quite frankly, I relish the weekends. While I love and appreciate our helper to death, she has the whole weekend off so that she can unwind and we can catch up with the kids, seeing as we both work. She'll often babysit in the evenings, but I always give her a weeks notice so as not to mess up her plans. A happy helper can only benefit everyone........
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bbvv
18 yrs ago
All the maids I've hired tidied up before they went out on their days off and after they returned. We did not expect this and apparently they have been trained to do this. Our last one normally goes to church and return home quite early as she preferred not to go out and spend money. She sends her money to Philippines for her daughter and sons. She even requested us not to give her days off despite me saying that it's government requirement that as employer we need to give employees day offs. So we cut it down to 2 days off a month and the other days off we pay her on top of her monthly wage. We had to give her days off to do her own stuff and so that we can have privacy in the house. We provided for her meals even on her day offs when she wishes to stay at home and she still worked around the house even when we tell her not to. I guess she felt awkward not doing anything - she does have her own room so she is free to do what she wants on her day off.
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