Dining out with DH

We are constantly at the Club where my children have their activities or on the weekends when my husband and I like to spend time together. Do all of your helpers eat at your table at the Club? Each meal? I mean when we go out on outings, we usually all eat together. But at the Club, its relly dding up since we are there all the time.

When we take her there, yes, she eats with us. I have pretty much given up on it though, because I have rescheduled things so that I do not really need her to come and she never seemed to relax when she was out. I tried to make it clear that she was not 'at work' as such, but she insisted on helping the children etc. Frankly, that's my job and she should be entitled to eat in peace.

Agree with foolonahill,We never eat out with our helper. Eating out is family time.

Foolonahill, cd - even without triplet babies, there are times when bringing a helper to the club is necessary. With more than one non-swimmer, you cannot be at swim class with one without having someone to look after the other. Mine used to have successive swim classes. When a parent has to be in the pool in a mother and baby/toddler class - who do you suggest looks after the other child, or should we just have 'taken our chances'?

Can't imagine taking helper out to eat with us and I have never understood why there is the need to I always view it as showing off eg. I have a helper so I must let everyone know - and that one is not very adept at looking after the children or lazy - most odd. Most clubs do not allow helpers even in your case MrsL when you have one in the pool and the other not, in that case I would suggest you leave one child at home with your helper and you spend quality time with one child as in many of the clubs you would have no choice with the no helper rule. If it was the helpers birthday I would indeed invite them along for a meal with us but certainly not to look after the children.

hettijames, I cannot imagine who you might think you're showing off to by having live-in help in HK. It's hardly an unusual or extravagant situation.


In fact, I don't bring my helper to the club anymore; as stated in my original post, I've rescheduled everything so that it's not necessary. I take the youngest swimming while the eldest is in school and the eldest now is a sufficently good swimmer and I do not have to be in the pool with her during lessons. I just understand the type of scenario in which a helper can be useful there.


When I lived in London, one child would spend 45 minutes in the creche while the other was swimming with me, that was never seen to be 'odd', not sure why having one on one supervision is any different.


Either way, it is your choice to leave a child at home, I just never do that unless it is absolutely necessary (emergency, illness etc). By the time that I would drive to/from the club, attend the lesson, get the child dressed/undressed; I could be upto 3 hours away from the other child. That's just not my style, I'd rather have be separated for 30 minutes or so, with a view of my child playing in the adjacent baby pool. I'd rather put up with having my helper around for an extra couple of hours than being without my children for the same amount of time. Horses for courses.


On the original post, I think that if you're uncomfortable with the cost rather than the concept of taking your helper to the club, then just rejig your timetable so that she can be home for mealtimes, or not have to go with you at all.

I am constantly amazed by how some posters manage to take a DH question and allow it to degenerate into accusations of poor parenting. There was a thread sometime last year in which a poor woman asked advice from anyone who had ever brought a helper on holiday. I think she just wanted to figure out how to manage her first trip alone with her children, and was labelled sad or pathetic by someone for even thinking about bringing help. I thought the purpose of a forum such as this was to help us to become better employers?


hkmama111, I think that if you need to bring your helper with you to the club for the whole day, then you really need to give her the oportunity to eat there too. Whether she eats at the table with you, or elsewhere, perhaps with some other helpers, depends on what you and she are comfortable with (not to mention what club rules permit). If it is becomming too expensive, then maybe she only needs to join you for some of the day.


Like others above, I have (to the disgust of cd, Foolonahill and hettijames) taken our helper with us to our club in the past. I've had the same experience as some other posters though, she never seemed to relax and neither did we. We now have the right age gap between children that it's no longer necessary to bring her because the children's activities are better timed to suit us.


While I've been ill, my husband has done the weekend activities without me sometimes. As he takes longer to do things like dressing them and is constantly late for the next class, he has taken our helper with him sometimes, so yes, she eats at the table with him and the children if they are there at lunchtime.


I'm currently trying to figure out our summer schedule though. As I am expecting a baby shortly, I will not be able to take my toddler in the pool for the summer. cd and hettijames, do you think it is better that I deny the little guy the chance to swim midweek or should I come to terms with allowing my helper bring him in? I have figured out that between my husband's time off and grandparents' visits, he will have 3 weeks in which a family member can take him swimming, maybe I should leave it at that for fear of being seen to be 'showing off', sad or lazy?

Just found the old thread:


http://www.hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/domestichelpers/threads/83290.asp


and funnily enough, the same poster was the one who forced it to degenerate;


'In fact I find it sad that people can't manage a week or 2 with their kids without a helper.'

Have to agree with with the other posters i too can not understand why parents need to take a DH out with them to look after their children and to a private members club. if i did then one must certainly include them in the family meal and one must expect the added expense. in order to avoid it perhaps you could just take DH in the morning or have her join you after lunch and go home before tea. I generally never leave one child at home with helper tend to take them all withif in the case of a lesson such as swimming rather than take DH I would leave one at home too but have to say there has been few ccircumstances where necessary. Mum of 2 i have to again agree with cd I too have to say that I find it sad that people can't manage a week or 2 with their kids without helper agree there are circumstances where a parents is ill and no close family near by different horses for different courses I suppose.........

JJChan, you have outlined the exact circumstances in which the other poster in the old thread was looking for advice. The lady was going to visit an ill relative and was looking for advice on whether it would make sense to bring a helper. She got very little constructive advice.


The point is, that it is nobody's right to label someone else's family life 'sad' just because they cannot relate to it. Personally, I hate having a helper around my house and am not going to renew her contract because I have not been able to make the transition to sharing my house with paid help, never mind my holidays. I have friends who have taken to the DH 'scene' like a duck to water. They 'subcontract' a lot of their childcare to their helpers. Just because they do things differently to me does not give me the right to look down on them or make jibes about their parenting skills.


I just think that if you have not got anything helpful to say in reply to a thread, you should not bother replying. Too many people seem to log onto this site to feel superior.

I wasn't being judgemental, just agreeing with foolonahill that we never eat out with our helper. I know quite a few people that do. Personally we keep an employer/employee relationship, we keep a distance between us and our helper. He is not a member of our family and we do not want him eating with us when we go out as a family. There has been one or 2 occassions over the years when I've needed to take my helper, and if that happens then yes, we buy the meal. If you want your helper with you all the time then fine, personally I don't but that doesn't make me judgemental just beacause we don't agree. I didn't tell you not to take them to the club, just that I don't. Also the club we're a member of doesn't allow maids if they are obviously working, you can sign them in as a guest, treat them to dinner if its their birthday etc but they are not allowed to work, as in been seen to be actively minding the kids.

mumof2 "just think that if you have not got anything helpful to say in reply to a thread, you should not bother replying".


I thought I made a very helpful suggestion


"in order to avoid it perhaps you could just take DH in the morning or have her join you after lunch and go home before tea"


i didn't say one should not do it only that I did not understand people who need to as have the majority of other posters. This is a forum and people are going to express opinions that you do not agree with but they should be able to express them anyway. As I said different horses for differnt courses.

If you take her with you it is only fair you feed her.


In order to save on expenses what about ordering a few dishes you can all share and if you do the ordering you can be mindful of the cost.


Just for info I don't take a helper out with me as I too am happy to look after the little ones myself.

We belong to two clubs, one which allows DHs and one which doesn't. When my children were younger, we virtually stopped going to the one which didn't allow DHs because watching three children under the age of three (twins!) wasn't my idea of recreation or fun. Sure, I could do it but why would I choose to if i had the option of help (isn't that why the job description is "domestic helper"?!)


So I took the helper and we ate together and she was never that comfortable, always ordered the cheapest thing on the menu, we made awkward conversation and everyone (but mostly she)was relieved when the meal was over and our relationship could go back to "normal".


Now that my children are older, we never take a helper and life is easier all round.


I have also travelled with and without helpers and greatly prefer not having a helper on holiday.


My feeling is that, if you do take a helper to a club, you need to grin and bear the loss of privacy and a less enjoyable meal and think of the benefit - that you are getting the help you need.


As to the other issue raised by Mum of 2, I agree with her and Woody, this is a very judgmental forum - not only of parenting skills but of suitability as an employer.


I am reminded of another thread in which the OP wanted her Dh to come home at 8.30pm on a Sunday. There was outrage at this and people wanted to know why, as if the reason was relevant to the question. There was a lot of opinion about the morality/legality of the question and very little response to the question itself which is why many of these threads degenerate into an "you shouldn't be allowed to employ a helper" type spats.


Having said that, I think that CD's comments are generally fair and on point, as here. There are other mean-spirited and unhelpful "regulars" in this forum who add little to the substantive issue.

VERY interesting discussion here.


And here it is:


I BRING my TWO helpers EVERYWHERE I go if I have my children around. Does this make me a terrible mother?


I bring my helpers to dinners and to the club. The reason is, when I take my children out, I am there with friends, or I need to do some shopping, or errands, or simply, I just want to take my children out for some quality time.


My helpers are USED to having meals with us. I let my helpers eat and order whatever they choose from the menu. They are also very logical and well mannered. Always order JUST what they need to eat.


While I am making conversation, my helpers will be 1) feeding my children, 2) Entertaining my children, 3) Taking my older one to toilet, 4) if my little one cannot sit too long in the high chair, then my helper will take him outside to "play" or just "walk around". esp if he's crying.


Some might ask, why bother bringing the kids out then. Well, at many times, we have family dinners which the purpose is to see the kids and to have some time to Chat among adults. Without helpers, I would not be able to eat or talk.


I would be busy, feeding my toddler, keeping my baby quiet and busy with an activity, preventing spills, constantly going to the ground to pick up dropped items, taking my older one to wash hands, to wee wee, keeping her entertained ... like doing an activity with her like coloring, or simply talking to her.


If I don't bring my helpers to help me take care of my children during a dinner with friends, by the end of the dinner, if I am dressed really nicely or formally, I will end up with juice on my dress, my clothes will be really wrinkled, my hair would be a mess, and I would be VERY cranky by the end of the meal.


My children's age are close together. And, they are VERY active children, and my husband and I have a lot of occassions in need of socializing for business purposes, and for pleasure. Children are there because we don't want to leave them home all the time. But if we go out without our helpers, then it's impossible to eat, or talk.


I think of myself as a very responsible, and effective parent. Having helpers while we go out is one of the biggest reasons for hiring them. When I go out shopping or taking my children to an outing, I cannot possible take care of my older one, while I push a stroller, or lift a stroller up and down while I leave my daughter at the top or bottom of the stair cases in this very baby unfriendly HK.


I also find myself having NO way of buying anything that is too big to fit in my purse. I have a friend who had no helper, and she has 1 child, she said, when she goes out alone with him in HK, she can ONLY limit herself to buying 1 bag of groceries from Park N Shop. Anything more than that, she would have to carry it with her mouth.


My helpers help me carry my child, OR my shopping bags or to watch my child when I go to the washroom, or when I am on my mobile.


While I am in the car, my helpers would help me give them snack, drinks, or feed my baby a milk in a bottle, and often, if I am making a quick errand, she would watch the kids in the car while I rush to the bank, or something.


I think bringing my helpers out with my children is MUCH better than leaving my kids at home ALL the time with my helpers while my husband and I are out of the house most of the day.


I think it's crazy to think people bring helpers to "show off" b/c MOST people in HK hire helpers. esp those families with kids.


I think if you DON'T have a helper at home, and you have kids... you should SHOW that off in public. B/c you would certainly be the minority.


I bring my older daughter out by myself to activities, and to playdates, or just shopping for 1 hour or 2 without our helper. Because it's times when I just focus on her only. No need to socialize, not necessary to divide my attention, and I would wear my casual clothes, and runners to bring her.


If you don't want to bear the costs of an additional person to feed when you're out, you can try asking her to eat FIRST before you leave the house for dinner. My helper often prefers this way too because she finds herself having NO opportunity or time to eat when we get to the restaurant!


I also think people should refrain from judging mothers who depend on their helpers to take care of their children.... every family has different needs, and every child is different. As for me, I see my need for two helpers as just a phase, as the children grows older, or when our workload is less... then we have time and energy to spend with children alot more.

JJChan, as I understood it, Mum of 2 was just saying that posters in general (not just you) should keep their answers relevant. It's a fair point. If the question is about how you handle meals with your helper at a restaurant, there is no point in replying just to say that you neither do it nor believe in it. Whether you approve or not is your own business.


Sure, the point of a forum is to canvass opinions, I do believe the most people who post questions expect those opinions to pertain to the question at hand, not ancillary subjects such as how you organise your life or raise your children. Of course, if that's what the question is about, then I'm sure that differing opinions are very welcome.


Hkmama111, if you need or want your helper with you in a club or restaurant all day, then I think you also need to feed her. Someone suggested that she may be able to sit with her friends and eat with them - if your club allows that, it may be preferable for all parties, she probably has a few friends there if she spends so much time at your club. Otherwise, she could always just come for a shorter portion of the day at eat at home. Other posters suggested re-timetabling activities so that you do not need her at all, that may work too (but unless you have private instructors you'll have very limited flexibility in that regard).

hkmama111

Either take your helper with if you if you want her there and feed her or take your kids yourself without your helper and your helper can eat at home as normal.

It's not rocket science and I really don’t understand why people ask others for advise on such things.

Anything about how to treat your Dh should come naturally and not require the help of strangers to tell you what to do.

A strange question such as this will inevitably raise answers such as these. A parent who does not take the helper out with them at all but may be able to help with the answer then why not say. Just to add fuel to the fire Im with you on that one jwm hkmama111 why not leave helper at home where she is likely to feel more comfortable and you never know you may enjoy looking after the children.

Great reply Woody.


Parenting isn't about living through ALL the "not so pleasant" moments of raising children. I prefer NOT to lose my poise and spend the whole dinner teaching my kids, picking up toys, feeding the kids, scolding them, ensuring they are well mannered.... in front of guests, and in a quiet environment such as nice restaurants or even at the club. Teaching manners, and disciplining children.... we mostly do it in privacy at home, or when there are no guests around.


I believe it's much better to have our helpers around to ensure my kids are safe, happy, and fully attended to than have a mother dedicating only half her attention.... which we have tried... and my little one ended up falling off the highchair, while my older one hits her head on the corner of the table, and I had to ask my guests to watch my baby, while I took my older one to the washroom.... why should I subject myself to this when my helpers are just sitting at home, ironing some clothes, or mopping the floor.


My priority is my children. Hiring helpers is not a sin. It is because I love and care my children SO much that I hire two people to watch over them full time. It's not like I am not doing my job as a mother, but with helpers, I think my children have a much better quality of life and well being than just myself alone because I have a career, I have many things in my life OTHER than just my children. But that doesn't make my children any less important.


Since this is a DH forum, I always wonder, for those who keep commenting WHY need a helper.... WHY then are you in this forum ? THis forum is intended for those with helpers at home, seeking for advice, share experience, and simply to support each other as an employer.

Katetam of course hiring helpers is not a sin I have a wonderful helper and I would say that all the posters that have said here that they just can't see the need to have a helper with them every time they go out all have helpers themselves and no doubt excellent ones this is a forum intended for those with helpers at home yes that is why posters are using it just that they use the helpers for domestic duties at home rather than looking after the children I would imagine.

Have you guys always had live in help?


Just curious

Always had live in help.

God forbid if you ever move somewhere and can't have a helper.I never take my helper out to dinner with us or the club. The activities my 3 kids do I make sure are all timed so I can take them, watch them and bring them home.Dinner time is family time and I could think of nothing worse than taking her everywhere with us.I hope you never have to move.

hkmama111, how old are your children? how about just ask your helper to come help you look after the kids after mealtimes? If you are constantly at the club what do you do when kids are busy doing activities? Most helpers don't feel comfortable eating out w/ their employers so I think your not doing her any favors at all.

I was a former helper I thought I could manage to do everything on my own. Being a mom of an 8th month old child I broke all my rules to save my sanity by having someone to help me lookafter her whenever I needed to do something that doesn't relate to her and to have my "me time". I still miss out on a lot of things but feeling much better now w/ a help. And yes If we ever find ourselves out at mealtimes I will be responsible for her meal.

ha ha ha hkmama111 is the bored housewife on the relationships thread. I know its hard to accept that having kids we don't have our own identity no more, were just mothers.

HKmama111, I am sure you get the picture now; if you need to bring your helper, or anyone else, out to eat with you, then you also need to feed her. Now, I am realy sorry, but I need to hijack your thread for a minute.


My wife is your sterotypical super-woman. She, like some of the posters above, insists on doing everything herself with minimal help from our helper. She does the school run, shuttled the children to ballet, tennis, soccer, swimming, skating, playgroups, playdates etc. etc. Since some of her friends do not have cars, she does the same for them. She has taught our daughter to read and write in a matter of weeks, as her overpriced international school's not putting much emphasis on it. I am away for weeks every month, but when I am back she manages to get dressed up after she has put the children to bed and charm my clients, colleagues etc., whenever the need arises, despite being exhausted and heavily pregnant. I am a director in an investment bank, i work hard by anyone's standards, but nothing compared to her. And she never complains about anything.


My problem with all of this is that she does NOTHING for herself. She has reorganised the children's swim classes, so that she can be with both of them without handing the other to our helper. I thought the previous arrangement worked so much better - they had lessons one after the other, she allowed the helper to supervise one in the paddling pool which is right next to the pool in which the lessons are held, while she was with the other. However, she felt too guilty leaving the children with the helper for 30 minutes each, so now makes 2 trips to the club, so that yet again, she can do everything herself. The real problem is that her health is suffering. She is remarkably slim but only because she is running herself intoi the ground, not because she allows herself time on the tennis court, pilates studio and so on.


I am the point of considering changing my job or moving home to reverse this process. We are reasonably comfortably, paying for help has never been an issue, it's just a question of getting her to accept it. The thing is that when we were in England, on the few occassions that I could bring our daughter to Montessori, I was the only parent. Most other children were there with their nannies.


I have always put this determination to be the perfect mother and wife down to the fact that she's a perfectionist in everything that she does. She was more senior than me when we got married and felt that if she's going to give up work to dedicate herself to the family, then she should put 100% into it. Now I think that the judgemental people who surround her are probably responsible; the ones that would label her 'sad', 'odd' or 'lazy' for taking an hour off. May I ask all of you - what is wrong with having a moment to yourself? What is wrong with the odd lunch, massage, tennis lesson or whatever? Do you all lock yourselves away and do absoluteley everything for everyone else and nothing for yourselves? What are you trying to prove?


jwm, my mother had 'only' 4 children and certainly could not afford part time or full time help. She still got to swim by herself, to go to the shops alone, to take up hobbies. She had her own mother, her sister, her neighbours and her friends around to lend a hand. They all helped one another. Those of us who live overseas without that support network should be trying to do the same - even if it's just a bit of positive encouragement instead of berrating those who make the most of the help that they do have to hand.


I would be grateful if someone could explain why you are a better parent if you leave a child at home with a helper for 3 hours than if you bring the helper with you to look after the same child for 30 minutes? I thought I was reasonably bright, but still cannot figure that one out! I can only conclude that it is a racist thing - 'I don't want to see helpers in my private member's club!'.


Again, sorry hkmama111 for stealing your thread. This recurring aggressiveness on these threads is infuriating. I watch my wife's health suffer from running herself into the ground and I just want to hit these sanctimonious, judgemental posters with superiorty and/or persecution complexes who have nothing constructive to add to these threads. The comments are not even consistent. Posters like HK1 make comments like these ladies have not had the joy yet of raising faniles on their own and would be in for a big shock if they had to' on one thread (for the criminal act of allowing a child to be in the care of a helper for 30 minutes), and on another has a go at a woman for not using her helper enough! I am interested to know whether you all have the guts to be so confrontational face to face or you just hiding behind an anonymous forum? Now I just have to go and ask my wife if she is in fact 'Mum of 2'.

I'm afraid South Side the fact that your wife is a perfectionist in everything she does is a character trait and not something that can easily be changed.


I assume you have tried to sit her down and talk to her about how you feel and how upset it makes you to see her health being affected but what she’s doing. Despite how hard it may be you need to try again and be much firmer with her explaining that you are considering a change in job etc because you are so concerned.

Perhaps take some time yourself to think of some ways that the load can be eased for your wife and why it is ok for her to let go of that task and it will help her to feel that she is not lazy or uncaring by allowing the helper to take on more.

Perhaps you can subject your wife takes care of the children and the helper does the home stuff so she will be less tired when being with them.


Now I do allot of things myself and like to do all childcare and I don’t see that as a problem, the truth is most women of the world raise there kids and take care of the home with little or no help and manage ok so I don’t consider myself to be doing anything out of the ordinary. I do though take advantage of being lucky enough to have a helper to allow my husband and to take some time for ourselves and to give more time with the kids than we would otherwise get.


Everyone is different, but having been a live in Nanny for many years when I was younger I have seen both sides of things and this has led me to want to be there for my kids and in there life full time, this is my personnel choice and something I will not defend.


Good luck with your wife

sorry, have nothing to contribute... but i am totally curious if mum of 2 is southside's wife?

Your wife sounds like a wonderful parent and she obviously feels that it is important for her to do all the childcare, however, if this is impacting on her health she does need to slow down for all your sakes. Perhaps you can persuade her to hand over all the domestic chores to your helpers - admittedly I have NO problem doing that. Your wife is obviously an intelligent woman so it is unlikely that the people surrounding her (even on this forum) are making her over do it even if you think they are judgemental, it's her own choice. There is nothing wrong with taking the odd or even a regular lunch, massage or tennis lesson, heck, I do it all the time usually when the little ones are at school or kindy or when they have gone to bed at night and that is when I appriciate my wonderful helper, just not normally when they are at home or awake. Why not sit her down and tell her how you feel and if she still feels strongly about being with the kids all the time, what about organising things for herself when they are at school or sleeping? What about booking her a massage when you know it is a quiet time for her, would that work?

I know that my little ones are only small for a very short time and I want to make the most of it that is why I want to look after them full-time, your wife obviously feels similar, however there is a balance and it looks like your wife needs to find that balance. I hope she does and all turns out well.

Why do people have to ask how to treat their employees - that is all a DH is - is it because they are afraid of what 'others' may say? Seriously if the employee was in the office what would you do? Do what YOU feel is right for your family and forget everyone else and what they do. Oh and in my case sometimes my DH comes with us to the club/restaurant wherever and other times she does not, It depends on what I/my partner feel like at time its our family & our money.

Quote -


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I think any criticism that has been made regarding parenting has not in any way been directed at people who leave their children in the care of a domestic helper for occasional periods, such as when a mother needs to go shopping or perhaps out to the occasional lunch with a friend, or dinner with hubby at the weekend. Every parent needs a bit of "Me-Time" to save our sanity, and without having extended family here such as grandparents, aunts & uncles, there is absolutely no reason to feel guilty about leaving children with a trusted domestic helper occasionally. But I do think that most criticism was probably directed at Katetams post who openly admits to giving her two helpers the responsibility of parenting her children for what seems like the majority of the time. However, whether or not we agree, that is her decision and none of us have a right to tell other parents how to run their families.


Regrading the original posts question, I'd say don't take the helper to the club with you unless it's absolutely necessary, but if you do then you should buy her a meal.


And finally regarding the following comment -

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Well actually, no, I don't want to see helpers in my private member's club!! My club's rule is no domestic helpers, yet still some members seem to think they are above everyone else and blatantly disregard these rules ... and the helpers I see are not there for social reasons ... or in fact to help mum who's stuggling alone with 2 or 3 kiddies under the age of 3 ... they are there hand feeding the kids and following them around like shadows whilst mom & dad sit back and enjoy breaking the rules!