Posted by
cc77
17 yrs ago
Hi everyone. Just want to share my experience through this site. I'm a fdh and been working here in hk for almost 5 and half yrs. I worked for my previous boss for 3 a half yrs.,didn't finish my 2nd contract due to personal circimstances. We had good relationship though. I broke my contract and helped her to find another one for my replacement. Went back to philippines and spent my 8 months looking after my 2 kids. Flew back to hk last yr. When my previous boss heard that I came back to hk, she contacted me and promised to raise my salary and work with her again coz her daughter missed me a lot and that she already fired 2 helpers. I refused her in a nice way and explained that I already signed for a new boss. But then shes willing to accept me again if ever I changed my mind.
I'm recently working with my 2nd boss. She has 2 kids, a 1 yr old girl and a 7 yr.old boy. Been working for her for 1 yr and 3 mos. She was referred by a friend. Her boss and mine are friends. I was hired directly with my friend's help. I was told that i would be her 7th helper and that shes very demanding. I didn't mind though coz i wanted to go back and work again. To make the long story short, we went along very well though the work load was very tiring. She gave birth to her 2nd child after my 3rd day of arrival. Had to take care of a new born baby and a 6 yr old boy then. Honestly, looking after a baby was very tiring coz i had to feed her every 3 hrs day and night. Not mentioning the household chores and looking after a 6 yr old boy whose schooling. I had to start my day at 6 o'clock in the morning and sleep 10 or 11 at night. With God's help, I'm still here until now and still doing fine. I find my boss is really demanding so to speak but open-minded as well. Maybe she can see how neat and tidy her house and her kids too when she comes home from work everyday. Her daughter is very smart and seldom got sick (just cold or flu coz of the changing weather) . In my more than a year staying with her, my boss and I had an argument once (not really argument but misunderstanding). It was when I didn't sleep for 24 hrs straight because she went back and forth in my room to get some stuffs and that made me hard to get back my sleep till morning. My face wasn't look well in the morning and i felt like i was floating but i had to get up and work. My boss misunderstood my facial expression and told me that I'm impolite (rude)...and I was shocked! I explained to her what happened the night after then she apologized afterwards.
Now, my contract with her will expire on November and she already asked me if I'm willing to sign another one. I already love her 2 kids specially the 1 yr old girl because I've been taking care of her since birth. But I want to change my environment and spend some extra time for myself. I have to start my work 6 in the morning and go to bed at 11 at night 6 days a week. I have sundays off, from 9 in the morning (coz I still need to feed the baby before I go) and my curfew is 8:30 in the evening, so I'm always on the rush. My friends call me cinderella coz I always take a look at my watch when it strikes 7 pm. I have to leave them 7:30 and take bus to home(takes 1 hr).
Been thinking a lot wether i will sign another contract......
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mrsl
17 yrs ago
Agree with cara. You deserve a medal for completing one contract. There are plenty of employers out there who take some responsibility for their own children and believe that helpers need some quality time of their own.
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do you know that your emoployer hast to give you 24 hours off? it is illegal to get give you only 11.5 hours off (9am till 8.30 pm). generally sounds v hard work. mine two helpers work 7am till 7pm (and I feel like it is a lot and dont ask them to cook, they have a lot on their plate without it!).
You have to leave I am afraid or talk to your emplpoyer and say you will leave if nothing changes. Good luck
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cc77
17 yrs ago
thanks for the comments/advices so far...and ldsllvn, yes I am well aware of the 24 hr day off and for sure employers including my employer knows it too. Just so happen that me and most of my co- fdh are considerate enough to obey their (employer's) demand to come back early during day offs. I was once tried to explain it to my boss by using example. Told her that i have a friend who has a western employer and that she got her 24 hrs off in sundays.And that this employer strictly follow whats written in the contract. My boss reasoned out that, first shes not western,2nd she asked me to help her because she feels so tired every sunday taking care of her 2 children ( seems like i got no right to say i'm also tired cause i'm also human like her...lol....imagine 6 days a week yet she didn't hear me complain?
maybe I'll try to look for a western employer after my existing contract then...heard they are more appreciative and independent.
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I think it is a well known fact that western employers do treat their helpers better than chinese.. there are exemptions to both of course. Good luck next time around!
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maxis
17 yrs ago
I wonder if your boss pays yo the minimum wage?
Some people think that if they pay above the minimum wage (like another HKD500 or so) then they can ask you to do anything at all.
Now that isn't fair.
If you were earning say double the minimum wage you'd expect to be working like crazy, and if you agreed to it well then that is ok. I suspect that even if you are getting above the minimum wage that it isn't anywhere near proportionate to the extent you work.
Some may say "resign! don't put up with that".
But as you only have 2 weeks to find anothe empolyer before having to leave and return (which is very costly, plus more agency fees, airfares etc), well then the uncertainty makes it quite difficult. Some employers know that, and know people have family/financial commitments and are trapped to an extent, much more so than if you were a resident anyhow.
Guess you don't have much time to go for interviews for a new position wit those hours either.
Perhaps try finding another job, but if you can't, well you may have to re-sign - would it be possible to discuss and re-negotiate the pay. Probably wouldn't work anyhow.
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I am perpetually amazed at how crap people are here, this woman can't even feed her baby on a Sunday morning, couldn't be bothered to feed her newborn baby herself, I hope when her kids grow up and she gets old that they put her in a stinky old people's home and never visit her.
(Sorry for that little rant - and no, you shouldn't renew your contract. Get a job with someone who at least treats you as a human being. )
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Why is she asking you now if the contract terminates in November?
Find out when a new contract can be submitted to ID (8 weeks before the date the previous contract ends?) and try to determine why she is so keen to know your intentions now. Maybe she knows that her requirements are intolerable and is in the process of lining up your replacement.
Knowledge is power!
I have been told (again, check whether this is correct) that a FDH who resigns within 6 weeks of the end of the old contract does not have to return to his/her country of origin before commencement of a contract with a new employer - this might give you more time to look for another job but you should check to make sure that this information is correct.
A tribunal reference might also buy you more time (but could be problematic with finding a new employer as many employers shy away from a FDH who has filed a complaint against a previous employer).
You need to work this situation to your best advantage seeing as there are still 8 months of your contract left to run. Find out all you can about how to time your departure and make the appropriate responses to your employer (eg say you will re-sign a new contract now if that will help you regardless of your real intentions).
Also consider other options. Eg:
Would it work to say to your employer that you like and respect her and love her children but that it is physically impossible for you to work like you have been working for another 2 year contract?
How would she respond to you saying that you will sign a new contract only if she agrees to better terms and conditions AND that you trial (ie put into operation) those conditions (except possibly any increase in salary) for the remainder of this contract (or for the last 6 months)?
This will give both of you an idea if she really can adapt to reasonable working conditions and whether a second contract is feasible.
The types of conditions you might consider are:
1. Reasonable daily working hours (eg 12 hour day).
At the very least you should be firm about your usual finishing time - it should not be later than 9pm - to give you time to rest. If she wants you to work late because the family eats late then explain (firmly) that you will not be able to start until 9am.
Consider very carefully whether you would agree to time off during the day if you are responsible for a young child (does your employer also work?). It will be impossible to rest if you have to care for a 1 year old during the day.
2. 24 hours continuous rest day.
3. Higher wages.
4. Extra money for extra work (say you agree that you will work 6am to 6pm and, if you both agree to longer hours OCCASIONALLY that she will pay you extra for that work)
This condition will be hard to implement in practice - longer hours on occasion (eg baby sitting) are generally considered to be part of a FDH's usual duties without extra pay. Also, you don't want to find yourself slipping back into the old working hours even if you are getting more money - apart from being bad for your health, your employer might use this to justify working you even harder, if that is possible.
5. that a second helper or part-time maid is employed to help with the work to reduce your hours.
Consider all the possible alternatives, prioritise your requirements and then decide, given your circumstances, what will be the best way to achieve what you want.
Also remember that you have bargaining power - your demanding employer will not lightly get rid of the only helper who has lasted in her household and whose children trust and love her.
Good luck!
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maxis
17 yrs ago
Sounds like she is also taking advantage of the fact that you have bonded with the children, and knows that you will miss them if you leave.
Her asking if you will renew so early, as said by smallfry, appears a bit fishy. Just a thought - she may be keeping HER options open by wanting to know she has you, then have some sort of plan up her sleave.
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cc77
17 yrs ago
I appreciate all the advises very much....as the saying goes "in the multitude of counselors there is accomplishment". Reading all your ideas and advises, I actually am making up my mind not to renew my contract.
As smallfry and maxis brought out, it is really fishy, my boss asking me if I'm gonna renew my contract very early. She just really wanted to know if she has me or no. She herself admitted that it will be very hard for her to find another helper for my replacement because she has high standard( actually she told me once that the time she hired me, she decided to lower her standard for me..lol) She had a helper who only lasted for a week, another was a month, 2 were both 2 weeks, and one who terminated her contract after a year to work in canada. All of them didn't meet her standard she said...lol....So she's giving me extra chance then.
As I was reading between the lines....I saw the problem in helper's side (count me in) We, helpers, have no GUTS to ask our employers for higher salary no matter how hard our works are. We have written contract with the minimum wage in it. We are just hoping it will be given base on our good performance. But as for me right now, I receive minimum every month (no xtras). Neither asking them to give us 12 or so working hours since baby-sitting is part of FDH's duties (that means longer hours of work). Basically, all I want is extra time for myself specially in sundays. To make it simple, why should I renew my contract if it wont satisfy my wants. Im here to work and live ..not to work and die tomorrow..lol...
Hoping to find a good one next time....I'm free to find another employer during sundays though. I better start 3 mos before my contract expires.
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We are planning to recruit a helper very soon and we would never treat ANYONE with such disrespect and disregard. Look for another employer when your contract finishes!
It's just a shame you're contract isn't up until November!
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Your employer is a piece of work! Unfdortunately, I suspect that she's not unique though.
If I were you, I'd take smallfry's advice when negotiating your next contract, but with a new employer. Leopard's never change their spots, and no matter what your current employer promises you, she will revert to her old ways - even if she starts off well. It might be worth having a discussion at this point (initiated by her when she asks whether you've made adecision) saying what changes you need to be able to consider renewing. It might buy you some time while she tries to be human and act like a parent occassionally. However, it may well backfire if she feels that she has lost face (if she could get worse).
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FKKC
17 yrs ago
cc77 You mentioned your first boss wanted you back if you changed your mind so why not go back to her as you claimed that you had a good relationship with her. That would solve your problem.
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cc77
17 yrs ago
worker bee and cara, I think I can find an employer as good as you guys...anyways..thanks a lot for the advises.
And yes, southside, you are right. I should take smallfry's advice.
FKCC Yes my first boss really likes me but she has her 4th helper now . I don't want her helper to loose her job because of me. I would rather look for a new one than put other people's life in jeopardy. Anyway, thanks for your concern.
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It looks like you have made up your mind, well done and good luck finding a new employer.
I can't get past the comment your employer made about your contract i.e. she is not Western, so she doesn't need to follow the contract to the letter!! Does she think HK Labour laws were invented to guide Western employers??
Maybe get in touch with your last employer and ask her if she knows anyone looking for someone. Keep an eye on this forum - there are always people asking about helpers - don't be shy, send them a message and introduce yourself. It cant hurt!
Good luck!
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one thing i prepare to eat at home or friends house than the restaurant because restaurant is really not clean not like cook in the house is very very clean because you and your family will eat and you are the one who will cook thanks
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cc77
17 yrs ago
I will really keep an eye on this forum RachRobin....thanks.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
interesting thread.... however, cc77, asides from workload being heavy, you sounded like you have been happy in this household ? I know MANY helpers who would give to have what you have... many helpers always say, the workload is not the important factor, it's how the employer treat the helper, and respect.
Every employer has different needs from helpers... it's matter of mutual agreement. (like any company you work for out there ) many of us have Overtime.... too many times... and not compensated.... but we stay, because we value the many other factors in the company.
I personally think if the workload is too much for you, it's your personal choice, but from your schedule is similar to MANY households I know, including mine. My helpers work daily VERY hard too... no different from yours. We show our appreciation, and we reward accordingly, our helpers are tired, and exhausted ... but they are happy.
They know, and appreciate what we have here, and the relationship we have because my helper has been through MUCH worse households.... we have a neighbour in the complex...... their 5 th helper in 4 years.... they don't offer a bedroom to their helper, no food, and no holiday. The helper sleeps on a "foldaway" mattress each night on the floor of their open kitchen.
I also know a household .... no holiday EVER for their filipina, they pay her each holiday (double pay)....
It's your decision... unless you don't care to have to keep looking for the "perfect" household/employer... many helpers don't have the luxury to wait and see and find ... they need the job right away, and so they just take the first employer who willingly hires them regardless the terms and conditions.
Just my opinion.
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meiji - where is respect in the way her employer treats her? am I missing something? no repsect whatsoever.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
ldsllvn, I re-read the original post, I still can't read anywhere there was any disrespect.
Having more workload than what the helper would wish in this job is not disrespect.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
Doing all the cleaning, cooking, shopping and looking after the new-born is too much for anyone.
Many people in HK are so precious and have a sense of entitlement, that they think there is nothing wrong with exploitation as it is within the law, or at least can be stretched to be so.
If there is so much work, then why not be so mingy and simply hire another helper?
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Meiji,
You can't seriously think it is not disrespectful to give a helper a full day off which is her legal entitlement. These laws are made for a reason, to ensure the relative wellbeing and health for the worker, as a human being in a so-called civilised society.
And yes, we can all relate to working overtime for no compensation. But would you do it day in, day out every day of the year? I think not....
CC77 sounds like she has a good heart and an amazing work ethic - and for that she is being exploited. Just because she is trying to stay 'happy' does not mean she should stay in such a situation, it just shows she has maturity.
If more helpers could vote with their feet or at least have an avenue to exert their rights (without fear of being deported) it might just pull a few of these 'employers' into line.
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So the employer does not:
Give 24 hours off as required by law
Cannot even look after her own kids on a Sunday morning
Tells someone they lowered their standards to employ them
Works them from 6am - 11pm 6 days a week and 6am - 9am / 9.30pm - 11pm on Sunday
I cannot see any respect there whatsoever. What I can see as plain as day is a slave, nothing more, nothing less. And it galls me even more that some people think this is perfectly acceptable.
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Ed
17 yrs ago
http://www.asiaxpat.com/racism/ (and slavery)
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cc77
17 yrs ago
meiji,
I was a plain housewife in ph, personally took care of my 2 kids since birth, looking after the house, did the houseworks, did the laundry and so on and so forth. When I decided to work abroad, I already set my mind and heart to do the same (except being a housewife..lol) I know my duties and responsibilities before signing the contract, I already have the idea of its content. Says there that I'm a HELPER and have a 24 hr day off once a week including statutory holidays. I don't expect much from my employer though. All what I'm asking for is actually mine. As what I've mentioned earlier, I just want to have some extra time for myself SPECIALLY in Sundays ( my 24 hr day off). In my recent employment, Im always on the rush during those days. Now that our contrat near to its expiration, is it a crime if I decided not renew it and look for someone that can give me what EXACTLY is in the contract? (doesn't mean though that i'm looking for a perfect employer coz no one is perfect including me) As what RachRobin said, just because I appear to be happy doesnt mean I should stay in this situation.
Regarding disrespect matter, I'll give you an example of it aside from lowering her standards when hiring me. If you respect your helper, would you answer her personal call telling to the people on the other line that she/he has to call again because the owner of the mobile is busy (which is in fact not)?? Will you yourself do that? Or have you ever done that to your helpers? Well, my boss did it so many times so I decided not to use mobile anymore...lol.
Cheers : )
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meiji
17 yrs ago
cc77, I only replied according to what you original posted. No mention of these additional information.
OF COURSE you have the right to look for the employer who is going to give you a full day of 24 hours rest. Good luck. Among all of the families I know, NONE of their helpers go out for 24 hours. They all have a curfew (for the protection of their children, and the household), and the helpers are fine with it.
There are a lot of things WRITTEN in the contract, I don't believe EVERY WORD is followed. I put $ 3400 as the salary for our helpers, we pay them alot more than that. The contract says 1 air ticket, and 14 days annual leave, we give a lot more than that.
Good luck. It's all a matter of what you think makes you happy, and finding it out there.
Finding the perfect employer, and vice versa the right helper... is really (according to a recent conversation and discussion we had at a dinner among six housewives/moms with helpers at home.... ) no different than finding MR. RIGHT and MRS. RIGHT to get married with. LOL.
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meiji
What has a helper having 24 hours off but given a curfew got to do with the protection of your kids and household? and do you yourself stick to the same curfew when you wish to go out in the evening?
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Actually a curfew is technically illegal, although I doubt people would do anything about it. Even with a curfew expecting the maid to work Sunday mornings and after curfew is downright illegal and wrong. These are the type of employers I'd love to see dragged up before the legal system, but you know it wont happen because it's just expected. Would certainly become an issue if the employer / employee were the other way round.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
I don't SET the curfew, the helpers ask what time we expect them to be home on their days off. We simply tell them our preference.
Our children sleeps early, so when helpers come home late, it will be noisy and will wake up the kids, and if we are already asleep, it will also wake us. We don't leave our latch locks unlocked overnight.
Helpers don't prefer to stay out 24 hours either... they come home to sleep.
And to answer Moppet's question: we don't stick to any curfew, because with kids now, we don't go out late at night, no one to watch the kids. Helpers retire for the day around 10:00pm.
And Cara, no intention to offend you... I just want to tell you, yes, teenager/child/helper don't have to wait until the sun goes down to get into trouble.... however, there is definitely a REASON why curfews are set after sun goes down.
I don't know about you, but yes, I intend to set curfews for my children when they grow up and go out on their own.
And it is always interesting to read all these "perfect" employers here in the forum.......
In my opinion, an employer is considered "good" by the helper employed. So long as the helper is "happy" and "content", open communication, and compromises.
That's all that matters.
A good relationship with the helper is a lot more than following what's on that Green contract. If we simply just follow that contract's word by word, and think we will be perfect employers, one is pretty naive.
$ 300 HKD a month for food allowance is a HUGE joke. How is one to survive on $ 10 a day. I never understood that. And any employer that gives $ 300 a month for food allowance needs to get a reality check.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
Curfew- I didn't know to use that word means I have to have the condition of "firing" the helpers.
(now I have to think about how to "fire" my kids when they miss the curfew in the future.)
Protect- yes, it is to protect my family.... "protect" doesn't have to mean in "danger", I often use this word for "enhancing", "maintaining" the well being of whatever is valuable or precious to you.
I am protecting the "well being" and daily routine of my family, and children.... by expecting the helpers to be home by a certain time. I also worry about their safety..... I would worry about a foreigner, woman, being out on the street at 4:00am.....
If they are going to be later than the set/said time... they always call to inform us.
Hope this is the end of English 101.
It always amazes me how many employers in this forum manages to treat a DH 101% as an "employee". I personally cannot do it. we all treat our helpers like our family members.
Maybe that's the reason there is always heated discussion in this particular forum.... there are those employers who treat their DH no more than an employee, and will follow the words of the green contract word for word. While there are those who treat the DH as part of the family because we are unable to have double standards within the closeness in our household.
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I'm the same Cara I've never needed to tell my helper what time to be home, Frankly if she's not adult enough to decide such stuff for herself she's certainly not adult or responsible enough to care for my kids when I'm not around or even be a trusted member of our household.
People really seem to forget that these women are people too and should do a normal working day for a normal working wage and then be able to have a life of their own. They shouldn't be on call all the time working long hours because we are unable to bath our own kids or clear our own dishes away and then in what little time they do get being told what to do all the time like there 5 year olds.
All it takes to be a good employer is to treat your helper how you would want and expect to be treated yourself. Be happy you have someone to help out rather than relying on them to do everything for you from washing the car, watching the kids, cleaning the home, cooking, shopping, laundry etc etc then go to bed so they can get up and do it all again.
Is that the life we would want for ourselves? Most expats managed without help at all back home so why is it now we need someone for 12 /14 hours a day now?
Fact is we don’t we just choose to get as much from our helpers as we can squeeze so we have to do less.
This is of course is not every employer there are plenty of decent people out there it’s just such a shame there are not more of them.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
cara, I was referring to YOUR lessons of teaching me English. How to use the vocabulary.
I am not being defensive, rather I am quite annoyed that there are often people judging and criticizing others because things are ran a little differently than their own.
Domestic Help is a topic and with issues that are very difficult to judge or criticize because one does not have all the facts and background to each family. One cannot criticize how horrible an employer is by listening to just one side of the story. And same with helpers, just listening to the employer's side of the story isn't fair to judge the helper's character or skills in anyway.
This just all started when I read cc77's original post.... and felt what she was complaining about was almost a standard workload in any household I know with children, and working mother, and just 1 helper.
As with the comment about why we need help here and not back home... is not fair either. We are in a different part of the world, with much longer work hours, much faster pace, children go to school at a lot younger age, some of us have no car, no relatives or family to help out....
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meiji
I never said it was wrong to have help my point is a helper is exactly that someone to help out but once we move to HK we suddenly need someone 12/14 hours a day to do every thing for us. I doubt many people where lucky enough to have family who did cleaning for them or our shopping or any of the other basic household chores we have to do. We may of had family who helped out with some baby sitting for sure but we'd of had to manage the rest ourselves.
People move overseas all the time and start a new life but other than when cheap labour is around they have to get on with things the same as they did back home and wouldn't have the luxury of a full time live in helper.
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meiji
You make some valid points in your posts.
1. I agree that in these posts you only ever hear one side of the story.
It seems to me that the only way to provide constructive advice in this situation is to accept that point of view.
In this case, the helper says she is not happy with the expected level of work. It is largely irrelevant whether her work load is the same as or more than other helpers in HK. The bottom line is that she is not happy with the level of work she is expected to do. So it seems to me the advice she needs to be given is how to go about changing he circumstances so she is happy.
You are right that there are probably other helpers in HK that work the same or even longer hours quite happily but that is not the case here.
2. I definitely agree that many posters on this forum are critical and judgmental. Domestic help is clearly an emotive subject that many people feel strongly about.
3. I too get tired of the nonsense about "life back in the old country".
So what if some expats don't want to bathe their own children or take advantage of free babysitting to go out every night? Provided they and their helpers are happy with their domestic arrangements, what business is it of ours to say, "you should behave in a certain way"?
Everyone manages with what they have and yes, lots of people will miss their helpers when they return home, but by and large, they will get by with the resources of that country (child care, baby sitting, going out less, family etc).
I think that everyone on this forum agrees that helpers should be treated with respect. Strange that we find it so hard to agree on so many other things and, sometimes, to respect differences of opinion and practices.
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FKKC
17 yrs ago
Meiji,
I agree with you that each household is different with their own rules therefore outsiders should not criticize.
But let's ponder on this...aren't we all fortunate to have paid helper(s) to do the daily stuff for us.
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Do you really think these girls would say they don't want to work more than 10 hours a day or that if they could really and truly voice there feelings without fear of the consiquences that they would say they are happy with there lot and the job, terms and conditions???
I think not
You can fool yourself into believing that they are happy with long hours and minimum wage because we are such great people and there bound to be happy working for us but i have grave doubts about how true that is.
If we are all treating our helpers so well and there mostly happy i'm suprised we hear such horror stories all the time.
We certainly aren't going to change things on a forum so i guess the best we can hope for is a little Karma.
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meiji
17 yrs ago
smallfry- very well said.
I have gained the knowledge in this post... and forum, why my friends all say it's getting more and more difficult to hire helpers. Majority of the helpers she interviewed are all looking for expats, preferably no children, or just 1 child that is above 8 years old, work hours are less than 10, free tickets back home each year, or the helper gets to go home each time the expat family goes back home for vacation. Pays $ 4000-5000 a month, and 24 hours rest...
I can guarantee, ask 10 families out there, especially local chinese families, the helper would NEVER have that kind of "package".
Moppet- we ALL don't want to work long hours... my husband sometimes work 20 hours a day....often 7 days a week, it's our own business, and I work office hours, but I never get to sleep until 2:00-3:00am because I have no time to do my own things until the children go to bed at 10:00pm, and my baby wakes up a few times for milk feedings.... etc. It's been a LONG time since I got to read a novel!
My helpers are so understanding and supportive, they often come and help me when the kids are not sleeping well, or they see how tired I am already... they often get up at 3:00am because my child threw up in the middle of the night, or is coughing, or needs to feed medication.
Not all families have the helpers working 12 -14 hours a day, while the wife is painting her nails, and the husband is flipping channels on the TV. We all are working hard around the household.
And horror stories are heard because they want people to hear it.... beautiful, heartwarming stories are never heard because no one needs to rant and vent about it.
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FKKC
17 yrs ago
Why are you so negative, Moppet? Why don't you think they are not happy? In that case, nope of them should be happy at all because they have to leave their own country & family to work elsewhere. We are the fortunate few as we are with our family and on top of that we can hire helpers. Life is like that - it's not fair but that's how it is.
Why don't we look at it this way - the DH need the money & HK is by far the best choice except if one want to imigrate, then Canada. OK, some local employers have smaller flats and some of them are not earning too much but they still need a DH for many various reasons but cannot meet up with what some expats on these threads proposed they are offering. The DH have a choice when going for interviews to accept the job or not. One needed the job and one needed the help. As long as they both agree to the work descriptions and keep their side of the bargains (of course within reason and within the law), everyone should be happy. Descriptions as human rights, slavery etc. etc. on this issue is totally uncalled for. Never listen to one side of any story as I hear stories about the ill-treatments also but HK is a law-abiding city and nobody can get away with it - ah ha, have you heard about DH been raped, killed and no pay in other countries - that's why they prefer & flock to HK & the salary is also higher (except in Canada). I believe in the latter part as it is indeed a fact.
One thought just cross my mind - those that say they need to give 24 hours off to their DH, where do the DH stay over on Sat. night? Don't they worry about that and didn't the law say no-live out for the DH? Please fill me in on this - thanks!
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Moppet
I think that very few, if any, FDHs ("these girls"??!!) come to HK expecting to work 10 hour days. They come knowing that the majority of helpers in HK work an average of 12 hour a day and knowing the minimum terms and conditions. AND they still come!
Why? Largely because they, admirable working women that they are, are seeking to improve their families' lives and provide for them.
I believe in the freedom to contract and, if they were dis-satisfied with the minimum terms and conditions they wouldn't come or wouldn't sign the contracts that are offered. There is clearly some benefit flowing to them. If the situation is untenable, they can resign and there are various support groups and legal remedies available to them.
So, yes, i do think that the vast majority of FHDs in HK are happy with their lots.
As meiji pointed out, job satisfaction is dependant on many things and long hours do not necessarily equate to exploitation (especially if is the industry standard).
There have been other posts in this forum from employers who are unhappy with their helpers who work short hours and are paid well above the minimum wage - obviously those helpers had little job satisfaction.
In each household, the cost/benefit analysis will be different. In my case, my helper had a choice between me and a Chinese household. She decided work with us (her first expat family) because she felt that we got along (she was right!) although she thought that it was the harder job (much bigger flat, 3 children as opposed to 1, a dog (!!)).
I think that an important part of treating helpers with respect means respecting their choices, such as the decision to come to HK to work, and not treating them like charity cases but as workers who are integral to the functioning of HK society. It also requires matching the expectations of the respective parties. The relationship is dysfunctional when the expectations don't match.
Yes, there are injustices and racism and exploitation which need to be addressed but on the whole the "horror stories" form a very small part of the whole picture.
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FKKC - 24 hours off does not mean they have to be out, although if they live in your residence and stay out for one night that's not counted as living out, what a preposterous theory! What they do in their spare time is up to them, they are adults for crying out loud.
I mentioned slavery and I stand by it. No one has any right to say "the law does not apply to me cos my circumstances don't allow for it". The original post stated the DH worked 7 days a week, having the hours between 9.00am and 8.30pm off on a Sunday. That is all. And people agree with that? Give me a break!
The DHs come here to make life better for those they leave behind at home. They do suffer emotionally for it, although many just think they are automatons who have no feelings. FKKC mentions atrocities that have happened to DH in other countries and jurisdictions, well it has happened here in HK as well. But I digress - as has this thread slightly.
You have a contract you have both signed that is governed by labour law here in HK. In the case of the op it's quite clear her employer is not abiding by labour law. Therefore she can be fined if this was ever taken up with the Labour Council. But the employer knows full well the employee will not complain because she has more to lose. That is vindictive, spiteful and selfish in the extreme and really gets into the realms of Master / Slave.
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FKKC
17 yrs ago
evildeeds,
You do use strong & loud words, don't you? Hope you use softer tone towards your helper since you are always mentioning about respect because if I was your helper, I would be quite afraid of you.
Anyway, my question still stands - if helpers do stay out on Saturday night (which I assumed is allowed), where do they go to stay and as part of our households, do we have the right to ask them (I know they are adults - but they are still a part of our house-holds) and we are concerned. Although my helper and my previous ones never asked me for this but I just wanted to know from employers who do give their DH this privilege. Thanks.
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FKKC - you are right, I am a strong willed person but that allows me to be stern when necessary and calm when necessary. As it happens my wife deals with our helper mainly but of course as I run my own businesses of course I have to be professional. The fact that only one person left my company (out of nearly 50 people) in the past year as she got married I think shows that I am able to balance things quite nicely.
Actually we have always asked helpers right from the start if they want to stay out for 24 hours or stay home. Actually ours like to stay home and leave at 6am on a Sunday to go to church and whatever else she does. So she finishes at 8 on a Sat and works again Monday morning. For me, if she stayed out I wouldn't really worry about it, I don't worry about any of my other employees so I find it quite natural.
I apologise if I come across as abrasive sometimes but sometimes I feel the weak need to be protected by the strong and if people do not speak out then situations get progressively worse. By at least sowing the seeds we may find that people start to question certain ethics and maybe, just maybe, thing will start to improve.
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FKKC
17 yrs ago
evildeeds,
Thank you & apology accepted.
Guess I need to put my question on a new thread as it's getting further & further away from the original topic for this one. Have a nice evening!
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cc77
17 yrs ago
Things seems a lil bit exaggerated here. I don't agree that ALL DH are asking for HK 4,000 to 5,000 salary( depends maybe). But ,yes, I DO agree that MOST really are looking for household who has no child or just 1, and MORE and MORE DH are looking for expats(most of them are experienced ones, been here in hk for 5 yrs and above), and for sure , ALL (including me) want a 24 hr dayoff. But then, 24 hrs off DOESN'T necessarily mean, ALL DH want to spend their whole day and night outside their employer's house. That simply means "REST" (no housework, no child care, no cooking etc..etc..) ALL of my friends got the same problem, before leaving home in a Sunday morning, ALL of them have to prepare their employer's breakfast, and lunch and tidy up the kitchen as well. When they got home in the evening, MOST of them have to cook again and clean again. Isn't it reasonable to say that ALL DH want to take a break once in a while? But if employer's allow their helpers to spend their 24 hrs somewhere else, well, thats another story. I do agree too that vast majority of DH in HK are happy with their jobs (because they're being compensated and that means life for their love ones back home or their employers are like some of the employers here in the forum)
Not ALL employer's are considerate to their helpers, and granted, not ALL helpers are considerate to their employers. WE have the freedom of choice. If a helper isnt satisfy with her work,she has all the right to look for another one, likewise, if an employer isn't satisfy with her helper's performance, she has all the right to either terminate the contract or look for another one next time...
Cheers :)
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cc77
Although I agree with most of what you say, I don't agree that all helpers want 24 hours rest day.
For example, my helper knows that she is entitled to it and that we have no expectations of her help from Saturday night to Monday morning. She still takes the dog out on Sunday morning and comes in to help me in the kitchen on Sunday night.
I used to tell her that she didn't have to do it and still try to get the kitchen clean up done before she comes in because I see it as our responsibility. However, I now recognise her help on Sunday for the kind and generous act that it is and compensate her for it by giving her extra annual leave.
While we do not need help on Sundays, we appreciate the spirit in which it is offered and try to reciprocate by giving her a benefit (extra days annual leave) which she appreciates more than an extra couple of hours rest on a Sunday.
The arrangement works to both parties' benefit. However, it was started by my helper - we did not ask her to work on her rest day.
It is illegal for an employer not to give FDHs 24 hours off but it is not illegal for the FDHs to voluntarily work on their days off, as does my helper and, so it seems the FDHs that meiji speaks of.
i respect your legal entitlement to your rest day and encourage and support you in finding the situatiion that works for you.
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cc77
17 yrs ago
as what i've said, its a matter of consideration. a helper can give extra consideration to her employer depends on the circumstances, or as a gratitude for the kind treatment of her employer. As what I was trying to point out was that, we (helpers) are not obliged to work during holidays....as simple as that....
Anyways, thanks for the encouragement and support.
God bless you all!
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Miles away did you contribute to the thread in any way? if not i think it's safe to assume the blessing weren't meant for you so NO need to be offended.
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i don't think anyone will fall for immature trolling miles away shouldn't you be in school?
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miles away seems to be having a bad day - judging by this and his/hers reply on the Helper stays out thread! you are just buckets of fun, arent miles away!
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meiji
17 yrs ago
(no idea what Miles away is talking about... no comment)
Smallfry, thank you for your posts. They are pleasant to read, and exactly what I relate to. Our helpers are EXACTLY what you described. They also take the dog out, and tidy up the house, and play with the kids, and sometimes, they wait for us to give them a ride to go out together... sometimes, they will just give the kids a hug and say, "I am going out now, see you later tonight !"
We appreciate their consideration and extra help all the time.... in return we compensate, and reward accordingly. At the end of our helpers' contracts, and when they wish to leave our household.... we plan to give them double their long service payment that they deserve.
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Just wondering about cc7,if you dont have time for yourself and have that workload ect...ect... But still has time to turn on computer and read all this post?????
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Gee miming,
How dare she? I mean, putting a post on a forum AND then having the nerve to read the feedback?
cc77 posted this 10 days ago and has replied to it 8 times. Are you saying if she has the opportunity to check her emails once or twicew a day she shouldn't have anything to complain about!!??
Get a grip.
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" she shouldn't have anything to complain about!!?? I not saying that she should'nt complain.Look guys, I was just wondering if this post is for real.
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cc77
17 yrs ago
Hi miming,
we don't know each other personally so I won't resent you for your doubt if this post is real. anyway, regarding the computer, I'm looking after a 7year old boy and everytime he uses the computer, , he will asks me if i'm gonna check my email before switching it off. he's kinda like me so he gives me the favor to use their computer.
regarding the complain, I know there are lots of FDH out there who have worse cases than mine, but I just want to share my experience and say what I think. All feedbacks or comments are well appreciated (negative or positive)
Have a nice day
PS
I don't spend more than 15 minutes in the computer though....lol
Cheers
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Angel
17 yrs ago
To Miming get a life will you?you both lucky because you both never experience what those FDH been going through and maybe if you both married and have kids you probably have maids too and that you think maid is a slave. what's wrong with you people...
And maybe you are one of those employer who treated their maids so bad!!
Believe in KARMA!!
I am very sick of you people!!!!
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Angel,FYI I have a helper for more than six years now I had treated her as part of my family.Im just expressing my doubts on this post,I dont have any intention to criticize.Too far from my mind to think that my helper are my slave.
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Angel
17 yrs ago
You're expressing your doubts? why because she is just a helper and that she knows how to use the computer and that she can speak english well.. tell you there's alot of FDH in Hk that finished College/Universities.
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cc77, you sound like an angel!
Our family(2 adults and the world's most delightful one year old boy) will be moving to HK in June/july and if we decide to get a helper we could only dream of hiring someone like you! You sound like a smart, caring, honest and hard working person and I'm sure you could find a family who will appreciate you and give back to you what you give them. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Angel, my doubts is only whether the post is real or not.I am absolutely aware about FDH in Hongkong are well educated ladies back to thier country. My doubts to her post as she mentioned how busy she is and yet she still have time to used her employers computer to post in this site and so she mentioned that only she used after the little boy homework.Thats the end of the story.
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cc77
17 yrs ago
Thanks adele78 ,
Actually, you are the one who sound like an angel. Wish you can find someone who will take care of your family( specially your son) when you move here in hk. There are so many DH (regardless of nationality) that are honest, trustworthy,hardworking and God-fearing individuals.
: )
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Well you never know how things turn out and where life plonks you...if you're still unhappy in September...send me a PM and we can get together for a coffee and a chat about the future.
Cheers!
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cc77
17 yrs ago
well, you are right adele78 .....we'll see then. I'll send you PM soon.
Thanks : )
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well i a'm wondering where r u now cc77?
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cc77
16 yrs ago
WeRHuman
I'm still in hk but no longer looking for new employer. Still have 2 months in my current employment.
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hope every FDH will find a nice hearted, law abiding employers but nothing is perfect. each FDH has their own burdens...
cc77 has this....
my friend has a rude employer who keep on shouting at her in public and, gave her a slap on the face once....I don't know what piece of advice am I suppose to give with this friend...but to call the police once her employer will do it again.
another friend, though her employer is nice, has a sadist gramma who won't allow her to rest and not letting her eat in due time... smart she is, she eat some snacks secretely and rest for sometime inside the bathroom when she can no longer pull or push a muscle and gramma thinks she's cleaning in there. smart one...
I saw my neighbor crying so I asked her why. Her employer is a pain in the butt kind. its her fault when the kids don't get up in the morning. I was her kid and they're like 9 and 7. They accused her of putting some water into the shampoo and shower gel bottle, wahahaha then tell her they don't trust her anymore.
Ive got my own trouble in here too.
cc77 good luck if you decide to look for another employer but as I always tell to my friends(and to myself as well) who have problem yet they can manage it, what if you will look for a worse one... Good luck anyway and I see you're working it out... our life in here is really tough...
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agree with Apple79, what if you're hoping to find a better one only to end up on someone even more worse :/ Same with the employers, we're also cautious to let go of a helper though she may not be the kind that has satisfactory performance because of the worry that we might end up on hiring someone who's a lot worse : /
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cc77
16 yrs ago
thanks a lot for the concern guys....but what I meant when I said 'I'm no longer looking' is, I decided to go home for good. My current employer wants me to renew my contract with her but my decision is final, I'll go home for good. It's not quite hard to look for new employer but as what you've said, what if I find one w/c is worse than this one. Actually, compare to other employers, my boss is far better than them. Heard lots of horrible stories about other employers' treatment to their helpers and I would say my boss is more human then them.
My boss also is very conscious now wether my replacement is better or worse than me...lol....that's life anyway.
: ))
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