I know some people might hate me but fine.
I want to say that I think that having maids doing the bus queue for the employer is slavery (or almost), unless that is an additional job paid say for instance at least an extra 1000 HKD a month. I said it.
Another "slavery" issue: maids carrying the schoolbags of the kids. In my opinion children (not maids, or mothers for that matter) should carry their own things. (Whether the number of books, sports stuff, etc. is excessive or not is matter for another thread).
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i ' glad there's still few people who can observe how maids here in Hongkong are treated, employer who usually treats their helper like that are lazy people, calling you out while you're ironing just to hand them over a tv remote control or calling you to go down and ick a plastic bag which even a 4 year old can carry while he will also h\go up and can bring it with him.. dont know how you could describe that., but yes its funny calling it slavery but it is. Just few people understands
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David, sorry, I disagree that is irrelevant when it comes to the number of books etc. I hope it is okay to disagree.The fact is, a kid should not carry books exceeding 10-15% of their body weight. I weighed my daughter's books and the are over that - this is a problem in HK - kids bringing too many books to school and back.
So as a parent, will you let your child carry it knowing it will give her back problems? Her books are only a small percentage of my weight or that of my helper's. I take her to school and pick her up myself daily so I do this 99% of the time. But for the remaining 1% of the time, my helper does it.
I've spoken to her school protesting but her school teacher tells me that this is how it works here in HK and they have to keep up with the standards. My daughter carries her own during the weekends - we don't fill them with 6-7 books!
Regarding helpers doing the queue, I can't comment because I don't understand. Buses come regularly so I'm not quite sure if people actually get their helpers to queue for them. What happens if the bus arrives and the employer can't get to it on time? But then again, I don't take buses, only trains.
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Those things are nothing compared to some things helpers are asked to do. And carrying a bag is hardly slavery. It's just carrying a heavy bag for a small kid.
As for some employers (and by consequence their kids) being lazy lazy lazy, I agree.
We:
- Leave the kitchen pristine on Sunday night so our helper won't have to do extra dishes on Monday.
- Leave her alone when she's off.
- Mostly carry our own dishes to the kitchen and set the table.
- Do some laundry on Sundays.
- Do the grocery shopping and run other errands.
- Only ask her to clean the house once a week. I know of plenty of helpers who have to clean the house every day. How clean do you need it?
I know we could ask our helper to do all these things, but she's an employee, not a slave. Besides she has more important things to do. Respect runs both ways.
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-GemmaW: Of course it is ok to disagree. However, i didnt mean to say that how heavy is the school bag is irrelevant. I meant rather that this other issue should be matter for another thread. (In my opinion, I guess asking the HK authorities to look into this matter would be asking too much). I still would prefer that the kids carry their bags and that they weigh reasonably, of course.
Regarding helpers queuing, its funny because when the minibus arrives they dont board of course, they keep waiting. And if there are more helpers queuing they form a second queue of only helpers. And when the employer arrives gets the first place, jumping all the others who have been waiting maybe for 10 or 20 minutes. It happenes almost daily to me. Nice huh?
-axptguy38: I present my respects to you :) I hope more people follow your example.
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Thanks davidebard6md. I guess my point is that we feel the helper can be asked to do a lot of different things, but at a certain point there is no more time within reasonable working hour limits. Also we have to set an example for our kids, who btw also "help" (still very young) with cleaning, cooking, washing dishes.
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cd
17 yrs ago
I can beat you xpat guy, I do all the cooking, all the washing and ironing, all the shopping, and all the childcare, apart from my disabled child. I really can't see my helper as a slave. In the time my son is at school, it takes my helper all day to clean the floors, and clean the bathrooms 3 times a week....
As to the bags, to the OP, have you actually carried one. The teachers at my kids school are always telling me off for carrying my kids bags, but they obviously don't realise what they have to carry around with them, and thats primary, its even worse at secondary.
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"I can beat you xpat guy, I do all the cooking, all the washing and ironing, all the shopping, and all the childcare, apart from my disabled child. I really can't see my helper as a slave. In the time my son is at school, it takes my helper all day to clean the floors, and clean the bathrooms 3 times a week...."
It's not a competition. ;) Since our helper only cleans once a week (apart from the kitchen) her time is just divided up differently.
As for slavery, I would just say that the helper is hired as a housekeeper/nanny. This involved a wide variety of duties. So long as the duties can be completed in a reasonable time and are not demeaning, there should be no problems.
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As regards the schoolbags, we also need to consider the age of the child. Sometimes my 4.5 yr old son is so hungry for his lunch when he comes out of pre-school he really can't carry anything. He always carries it there, but if he needs help with it on the way home, I will help him.
At the same time, however, I strongly agree that 3-4 years olds can start helping out around the house, in fact this is the best age to start training them. Mine always do simple stuff like -
taking their cup through to the kitchen when they've finished their drink
putting their shoes in the shoe cupboard when they come in
putting their jacket on their bed ready for an adult to hang up (in winter)
tidying up own toys, the 4 yrs old most of the time, the 3 yr old still working on it!
And occasionally they enjoy -
drying up their own cutlery and plastic plates & cups
putting their own t-shirts, socks etc in the machine to be washed
having a go at sweeping the floor, dusting, even using the toilet brush to clean the toilet (my 3 yr old thinks this is hilarious!)
simple cooking tasks like stirring and, for the older boy, helping with measuring ingredients
BTW, changing the topic slightly, so many posters here write that they only ask their DH to clean the house once a week - this makes me feel really curious! Do you only have your toilet cleaned once a week? I could never do that, esp with 2 little boys who sometimes accidentally miss the toilet bowl ... And I find the dust in Hong Kong to be much more than in the UK, do you guys only dust your house once a week? I like to keep my windows open and if I left the dusting for a week it would be about an inch thick! Just wondering ...
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Much as I agree that children should be encouraged to take some resposibility, i don't think that carrying a bag is tantamount to slavery. My helper never collects our children from school, so this situation never arises for us, but I often carry my daughter's bag for the reasons outlined above. I see plenty of helpers do the same, and knowing how large thre children are relative to the size of their bags, I do not see it as an issue unless the children demand help. Having met many of the parents, it's not difficult to see where the disrespect comes from. That's where the issues are. A helper would not usually resent doing certain tasks once they are shown respect.
Personally, I would much prefer to carry bags, wait in a queue etc. than do housework (which is what our helper does). Tasks like these do not in themselves equate to slavery, IMO. Being ordered to do them on the other hand, is a very different story!
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"BTW, changing the topic slightly, so many posters here write that they only ask their DH to clean the house once a week - this makes me feel really curious! Do you only have your toilet cleaned once a week?"
Well, our helper cleans the whole house once a week. However she does the kitchen every day, as well as the "spill zone" around the dining table, and the toilets if needed. Of course if there's a spill or something she'll get that.
"And I find the dust in Hong Kong to be much more than in the UK, do you guys only dust your house once a week? "
Yes only once a week. We do have our French doors open all the time. It gets a bit dusty but no huge deal. I guess it depends on where you live too.
While our house is by no means dirty, I think that we have perhaps a higher tolerance than some to a little dust. Also there have been studies that suggest a clinically clean house is actually bad for kids, as their immune systems have it too easy and don't grow as strong as they should be. In Sweden, it has been suggested that today's kids are more susceptible to allergies because the houses may be "too clean".
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-mum of 2 : I have seen the following:
A boy aged 11 or so reading the newspaper (nothing else) going to take the school bus. Going with him, the maid with the school bag, the sports bag and the flute case. It was then when the words "porter" and "slave" started coming to my mind.
A girl aged 7 or so coming back from school, with nothing on her back. Next to her, the maid with a small bag. I wonder why can't the girl take it.
The examples, both milder and stronger, can be multiplied...
Peace
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"A boy aged 11 or so reading the newspaper (nothing else) going to take the school bus. Going with him, the maid with the school bag, the sports bag and the flute case. It was then when the words "porter" and "slave" started coming to my mind."
While this may be questionable from a parenting standpoint, it hardly constitutes slavery. Porter is not a disreputable profession either. The employers asking their helper to do such things may be accused of making questionable choices, but they are not slavedrivers.
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To me this isn't a question of slavery, but of job description!
The primary children's school bags are far too heavy for a child to carry alone, this is a proven fact.
For me, I would define slavery more along these lines...
Not getting enough days off even when it is a statuatory holdiay.
Being paid less than the Governement allowed salary
Not being allowed any personal space within the home to either sleep, read a book or stare at the wall!
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I work with kids and everyday I see many helpers following them into school carrying their school bags ... sometimes not one, but two or even three bags. These bags contain nothing more than a lunch box, school diary and perhaps one or two reading books ... easily able to be carried by a child ... I see 4 & 5 year olds carrying them so I know the older ones are more than capable! These kids are the same ones that come into the classroom expecting everything to be done for them ... they drop something on the floor and expect someone else to pick it for them ... spill something on the table and expect someone to clean it for them. They're supposed to unpack their bags first thing in the morning and put things away ... some just haven't got a clue what to do! These are the kids who have helpers who pander to their every whim ... they are lazy and will grow up to be lazy, disrespectful adults. Unfortunately, they probably have lazy, disrespectful parents who also expect the helpter to do everything for them. We make a point of telling them that they are old enough and big enough to carry their own bags into school ... and make a point of telling them that there are no helpers in our classroom and it's time they started doing things for themselves.
I'm not saying every child is like this ... but unfortunately there are many who are.
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mrsl
17 yrs ago
I think the helper in a previous thread who had to massage her employer's breasts would kill to do either of these jobs. The helper's who are intimidated, underpaid and overworked are much closer to slaves than porters etc.
It is funny how some jobs that would seem unattractive to you and I might be a fun alternative to the day to day routine for others. Our helper was very disappointed that we did not want her to queue for 7's tickets as many of her friends were doing so and were planning on a very social Saturday morning. We explained that we were going to be away during the 7's but that she was welcome to join them if she wanted to and she actually got up at 3am to queue with her friends, for nothing but a chat!
I have to agree with the above posters that it is a question of respect and decency. Some children speak to their helpers in a way that I would not address a dog; they must have learnt that at home. We were in a queue in OP recently where an Australian woman was barking commands at her helper as if she was sub-human (the word 'stupid' was used more than once). Our eldest even said within earshot 'Mummy, that lady said 'stupid', but she did not even flinch! It does not take a genius to work out how her children were likely to treat the helper. Many posters here slam locals about abuse of helpers, but this was obviously an expat family.
I agree with the OP that children need to learn to do some things for themselves. Our children (or at least the ones that can walk) have to put away their plates after dinner, makes their beds at weekends etc. To be honest, they are more of a hindrance than a help, but they need to learn. Our helpers knows never to give them anything unless they ask politely. The majority of their friends are the same.
The helpers who are underpaid, get shouted at, have to accompany their employers everywhere, never get 24 hours off etc; they are treated like slaves.
I often wonder whether they realise what power they must have over their employers though, because many of these adults (never mind their children) cannot function without their shadows.
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msrl, I couldn't have said it better myself. Very good points all.
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- Sapphire: I totally agree with you.
Thanks for everybody's views, although i still might disagree with some. This is a nice forum where people talk sense and are respectful with one another, that is for sure.
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maxis
17 yrs ago
The queue thing really ragts me off.
Same in supermarket when one person gets on the queue early and the other shops about then thinks they can get in....ATM queues....agh! - this aint the helpers either!
If, however, someone sends a child or whoever off to just get something they realise they forgot, and it isn't premeditated, well that is more than fine.
I just say "hey end of the queue, like everyone else" - public shaming is effective but be prepared for someone to jack up rather than losing face!
And if they get their back up I just block them out so they would have to become physically agressive to pursue the matter further, but being bigger and stronger than the average in HK makes it easier.
Children not carrying bags, not carrying dishes to sinks, not puicking up their own toys, not finishing what is on their plates, watching what they want in TV, not turning it off when told. (i.e. lazy parenting).....leads to precious HK syndrome - the sense of indulgence and entitlement demonstrated in HK at times is probably the most sickening to be observed.
Sure, if it is too heavy, a kid shouldnt be carrying it.
But why don't we bust the teachers' chops for sending home so much unnecessary rot anyhow? Who carried our books to school? Seem to recall riding a pushbike with a pack on my back with books and lunch and whatever else was needed.
Spoilt/indulged kids become spoilt/indulged adults, and it just cycles around and around. Some say it is cultural - convenient way of justifying laziness and selfishness eh?
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I'm not sure that anybody here disagrees with the sentiment of your post Davide..., just that the 2 things that you mentioned do not, inthemselves constitute slavery. All of the posters seem to agree that children should take age appropriate responsibility for their own lives. I accept hat this is not a universal thing, but as articulated above, this is part of a wider problem, and unfortunately not limited to HK. Probably a discussion for the parenting forum rather than helper board.
I've never come across helpers queueing on behalf of their employers myself, but I know that it would irritate me if I did. I go insane when we take the children to Disney, finally get to the front of a queue and a coachload push in front of us because one member of their group has 'held them a place' (not helpers either).
The thing is that if the bag carrying and queueing are 2 tasks out of a helper's 6 or 8 hour day, I would not see them as being treated like slaves. However, if they are part of a 12 hour day+, they are underpaid and so on, then yes, there are problems.
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I don't see anything wrong with someone holding your space in line (under a one person for one space principle), at the grocery store, at the bus stop, at the immigration office, wherever. I've seen it happen all around the world. And if that someone is your helper, what's the big deal? What difference does it make to you who is in front of you? Having your helper wait on line is akin to slavery? Give me a break. There are so many anal complaints in this forum, but this thread is certainly high on the list.
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- tsuiwah: you don't see anything wrong. i see something wrong. that is why forums are for, to present different points of view and in that way learn. i knew some people like you would complain, still i wanted to say it and i said it. take ur break, too.
i know that "slavery" is not the precise term for this issue, still, if i have a chance to talk to some employer about this matter the word "slavery" will surely come out.
from the things i have read thanks to the contributors it seems to be an issue of "job description". i don't really know whether in the contract of a domestic helper the queuing thing appears. i doubt it. and i am still against it unless you pay generously for it. you don't want to wait for the bus? reach the queue earlier and don't use your domestic helper for that.
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"from the things i have read thanks to the contributors it seems to be an issue of "job description". i don't really know whether in the contract of a domestic helper the queuing thing appears. i doubt it."
Well, if helpers only did what was in their contracts, Hong Kong would be a very different place. Employment contracts, including those for large corporations, typically include vague phrases like "other tasks the manager deems appropriate".
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- islandhopper: haha good one! :))
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well i see this thread has so many views in such a short time.
i tend agree with davide about the queuing maids.
being a male, in my 30s, single and with no domestic helper i dont think i can give a good opinion regarding the bags issue. it doesnt seem to be a big issue to me but as i said i dont think i am qualified enough to speak with reason.
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What's the big deal here??? In the initials "DH" the "H" stands for "Helper". It's not that she is ordered to go out in typhon 8 with her pijamas to que and when the turn comes she makes room for 20 people. Has anyone ever ever never went to a pub or restaurant and asked for a table for 2 or 4 and then waited for his/her mates?? or while queing at the supermarket suddenly realising you forgot to get milk?? so that person infront of you has help in hand and you don't. Why make such a big deal out of it?
It's not about asking the DH to help, it's about getting help from someone like a husband, wife or son/daughter.
And please don't tell me "well, you can do it yourself" or "tough luck", because You can also clean your toilet, cook, clean the kitchen and so on... You did it before you came to HK and you can surely do it now as well. Is cleaning your toilet and the dirt you leave there less degrating?
Please, a bit of prospective here.
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I'll have to side with omaharrison on this one. If there were long lines at checkout, we used to take a line each and switch to the one that went fastest. How is that so very different?
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cc77
17 yrs ago
regarding bag issue, there is this indonesian helper near our flat and she's looking after 2 BIG kids. Every morning I see her carrying these BIG kids' 2 schoolbags and 2 small lunch bags while they carry NOTHING but their butts. The problem is, the helper is far smaller than those kids.This scene every morning makes me feel sick. There is another helper, a filipina who has to send these 3 children to school and she also looks like a walking christmas tree early in the morning. She has bags each shoulder, another behind, and 3 lunch bags in her arms. What a pity!
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cc77- that is a case of complete disrespect to another human being, I am sure people like this don't treat other people with respect either unless of course they are rich business assocciates.
Islandhopper- Yes, It's annoying. But what would happen if it was you who was going to a food court with 5 other mates or family members, would you buy the food together and later walk for 3 hours searching for a space for all of you?
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would any of us be happy if our bosses sent us to Que for there bus home every evening and how would we feel if they did? this i think is the point of the post that it is demeaning to the helper rather than slavery. Frankly anyone who would do such a thing needs a real reality check
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I have never witnessed a DH holding a place in a bus queue, so am not sure how widespread it is. It would irritate me if I was in the queue though (just like those people at Disney or people who queue in 2 supermarket/immigration queues etc.). I still would not see it as slavery as much as a pathetic dependance on the helper for taking over the simplest everyday tasks. Do these people have their helpers tie their shoelaces too?
I really don't think that it can be compared with my boss (in a former life) asking me to queue for him/her. I think I would more than raise an eyebrow if I was asked to clean a toilet, babysit, make a bed or cook a family dinner too.
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I don't understand why it's never the same as other people in different occupations being asked to do something way out of the scope of there job. A helper is not a general dogs body they are usually meant to do household tasks and childcare so asking them to do such tasks is just as wrong as your boss asking you to stand in line for him / her. Just because people get away with getting helpers to every last thing for them does not make it right it's just a sorry reflection on the human race that we are happy to turn a blind eye when it suits us.
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It depends on how you define the job description. I have no idea who asks their helper to do this, but if they describe the jobs the new helpers before they sign the contract to include bag carrying, bus queueing etc., then it is part of their job description. Assuming of course that it is all legal and reasonable (to both parties).
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"axpatguy... i have to say that for once, i disagree with you."
Hehe. No problem. I think my Italian half is responsible anyway. ;)
I have pretty much a "live and let live" policy. If someone cuts in front of me like that I don't care that much. I only "lose" a few minutes. It also depends on the brazenness of the person involved. If, as you say, the person "holding the spot" has one item and the person cutting comes in with a full cart, I would probably be a bit annoyed. But typically we would just have two baskets so the extra time involved would not be great.
In HK, I grocery shop alone anyway. And I must say I've never seen a helper holding a spot like that.
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axpatguy, like Cara says - for once I have to disagree as well! we do our grocery shopping ourselves, always with kids in tow. By the time we are at the checkout, they are losing it, read, me losing it as well! And if someone cuts in front of me in that sort of manner, oh... i would not be nice at all!! Watch out next time, I suspect you shop in the same supermarket I do, living where we both live!!
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Sorry axptguy, but you are alone on this one ;)
The scene of a que at the supermarket and suddenly when the turn comes to one person then a family is coming with few baskets sounds like a very funny one from a Monty Python movie hahahahaha, just seconds before all the rest of the people draw their rocket launchers out :p
But if it would happen to me, I would just laugh loud and shake my head, so if you will do your shopping in NT you dont have to bring body guards. ;)
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This thread reminds me of a trip to Koh Samui after Christmas. As the passengers filed off the plane, a DH, laden with bags, pushed past all of the pasengers on the stairs, knocking over a small child in the process. She was yelled at by a number of people for being rude. She then spread the collection of bags and jackets over a couple of rows of seats on the open shuttle bus to Immigration. Not only was she told off by the other passengers, she was then barked at by her employer who had finally sauntered off the plane with his extended family for not having reserved enough space. I thought that he had redeemed himself by allowing her to go first in the Immigration queue (they own a villa there and knew exactly which seats they needed to be first in line). Of course, the reason was that she could go ahead, get the trollies and load them up with their bags! No doubt, they think that they are wonderful employers for bringing her 'on holiday' with them.
I don't think that asking her to do any of things in isolation makes her a slave, but the sheer disrespect that they demonsrated by putting her in such an awkward position, shouting at her in public and allowing her to lift bags that weighed more than she did (while grown men chatted amongst themselves) amounts to the same thing .
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"Sorry axptguy, but you are alone on this one ;)"
That's fine. ;)
"This thread reminds me of a trip to Koh Samui after Christmas. As the passengers filed off the plane, a DH, laden with bags, pushed past all of the pasengers on the stairs, knocking over a small child in the process. She was yelled at by a number of people for being rude. She then spread the collection of bags and jackets over a couple of rows of seats on the open shuttle bus to Immigration. Not only was she told off by the other passengers, she was then barked at by her employer who had finally sauntered off the plane with his extended family for not having reserved enough space. I thought that he had redeemed himself by allowing her to go first in the Immigration queue (they own a villa there and knew exactly which seats they needed to be first in line). Of course, the reason was that she could go ahead, get the trollies and load them up with their bags! No doubt, they think that they are wonderful employers for bringing her 'on holiday' with them."
I must say this is an order of magnitude worse than making someone lose 2 minutes in the grocery line.
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"This thread reminds me of a trip to Koh Samui ......."
I think this post is more sutable to start this thread, much more than all the queing and holding a bag for a kid thing.
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sk76
17 yrs ago
I have to admit that at first this whole helper thing in HK amused me slightly. Coming from Britain, unless your filthy rich you don't really have help!
But now it has started to annoy more as I hate seeing how the helpers are treated (although I mean this more from the way the kids treat there helpers as this is what i view the most on my morning journey to work).
The helpers are often laden down with goods whilst the child (not too young be any means) has nothing.
I have often seen whole families eating in restaurants whilst the helper just sits at the table??? Whats that about, if you don't want her eating with you then surely don't take her along!!!
If I could spk the lingo I may even be tempted to say something on such occasions;)
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I'd just like to say something in response to the post asking that teachers not send so much stuff home in the children's school bags. It's not always stuff that's sent home from school. You'd be amazed at the unecessary items that some children bring into school with them from home ... Extra (heavy!) books from home, toys that they don't need or shouldn't be bringing into school, changes of clothes (not for play dates, just for school!), Large heavy water bottles (we do supply water in school), Some huge, HUGE lunch boxes, the heavy vacuum flask types which are totally unecessary ... why does a child need a hot lunch on a hot day?? The list goes on. I'd say to parents, check what goes into your child's school bag before you blame the teacher!
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There ARE many abused helpers out there. But it also needs to be mentioned that there are plenty of helpers who are treated well or at least indifferently by their employers. There is also the fact that despite all the abuse, they keep coming. That should tell us something about the conditions they are "escaping" from.
Good employers:
- Pay more that minimum wage.
- Give more than minimum vacation.
- Respect reasonable working hour limits.
- Respect employee free time.
- Give perks.
- Treat employees with dignity.
- Give employees a decent work environment.
- If "corporate housing" is provided, it is of decent quality.
Note how none of those points are specific to those employing helpers. It's true of any employer.
It is also true that a good and hard working employee will in the long run get the good jobs that pay a bit more, that have perks, that have the good bosses. There are plenty of employers who pay more than the minimum wage because they understand that good performance is tied to compensation, both directly and as a measure of respect.
"I have to admit that at first this whole helper thing in HK amused me slightly. Coming from Britain, unless your filthy rich you don't really have help!"
I don't think you have to be filthy rich in Britain to have a nanny or a cleaning service. ;) Housekeepers like in HK are of course another matter.
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Dora the E, I think we were on the same flight! One of the children knocked over by the helper was our son. 26 Dec? I have boycotted their shop ever since. His behaviour was truly awful!
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This forum accommodates mainly( if not wholey) expats, those married to expats and DH's, expats working in HK are mostly either relocated to HK or have been relocated and decided to stay. A relocated xpat's household income is much higher than a local household which goes over the 100k (with both parents working)without even considering those with the extra "housing allowance".
While a normal family here earns arround the 40k a month.
So 4,000 a month expenses on DH is much more calculated and taken into account with the majority of households in HK.
The minimum salary for DH's was set and I believe that the fact that many are still trying to get a job means that it's a proper income which is also set according the the "normal local household income". Of course many will ask for more but it could be a result of the different ranks in society here, and when a DH sees her friend who works for an expat and she gets so many better conditions and salary, it's normal that she would like that too.
I would adopt xpatguy's list, however would set it from the last to the first and give more than minimum holidays and salary depending on experience with the specific employer.
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Mum of 2 & Dora the E, please tell me this was not an expat that behaved in this way?
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"prejudice" source dictionary.com:
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
Just a point to think of.
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The thing I have a gripe about in supermarkets is the DHs standing in queques with ONE or TWO items in a trolley!! Hello..!! Are they THAT weak that they can't even hold a a few things while waiting in line?? The vastly empty trolley takes up unnecessary space too! When I first came to Honkers, I was shafted back in line a lot until one day a kind checkout girl indicated to me to step infront of the local who had just stepped in front of me. That is SO ignorant!! I would NEVER do that as a rule, but have found the need to do so on the odd occasion, otherwise I'd be standing in line until the cows come home!! Sigh...
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I was just on Pedder Street and had my first "helper holding a spot in line" sighting! To be fair, she was holding the spot so that her employer could hold her tiny baby in the shade.
I must say I was more peeved by the fact that she was getting into a taxi with a baby not six months old without a carseat.
"I'm still wondering whether it makes ANY difference if the ill-behaving employer was expat or not"
Not really no.
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- axptguy38: haha, but well that is not the case I meant when starting this thread. In the case you mention the employer is actually THERE, only that not exactly in the line but under a shade - and for a good reason. In the case i was talking about is that the employer is at home and sends the DH to queue for her/him (i have NEVER seen the DH queuing for a man though) so that when she/he arrives she/he doesn't need to do the queue.
So far, reading all these posts for which I am so grateful, i would summarize saying that:
a) Regarding the queuing issue, it seems to be a question of job description, i.e. whether the job as DH includes this matter or not. I think it doesn't. In my opinion, it is something to be agreed upon (and paid for) apart from the job as Domestic Helper.
b) Regarding the carrying bags issue, it is more difficult to solve, since as a matter of fact children HAVE to take things to school and back. I think it will depend on how the employers will face this, whether they will be reasonable or not when asking their DH to help in this matter. It is to be desired that the employers will be people of good will.
My sympathies to all the DH who are mistreated or disrespected.
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"I'd just like to say something in response to the post asking that teachers not send so much stuff home in the children's school bags. It's not always stuff that's sent home from school. You'd be amazed at the unecessary items that some children bring into school with them from home...........I'd say to parents, check what goes into your child's school bag before you blame the teacher!."
I have to say I don't put unnecessary things inside my daughter's school bag. She's in K1. She goes with no toys (not allowed as correctly stated), no lunch (she's home by then and morning tea is provided), no drink bottle only an empty cup (as requested by the teacher) and basically nothing that's not supposed to be in there. Trust me, I wouldn't weigh it with all these "extras" and then go in to talk to the teachers about her bag weighing more than that recommended by the World Health Organisation. I'd look like a fool! Plus I wouldn't want to add to her load.
But I agree that some parents do put all these extras for their children. Maybe this isn't an issue at international schools but most certainly, in the local schools such as my daughter's, kids have to bring home lots of homework. I've weighed it.
She used to go on the school bus but I stopped that because she was made to carry her heavy school bag behind her back for 40 minutes either way ON the school bus. I told the school and they said it was only a short journey so now I take her. Some schools are more considerate and they have hooks for the kids on the school bus.. but definitely not my little girl's school.
So to Sapphire, I have to say that sadly I have done my checking before I spoke to the teachers. I wish I was wrong and you were right, I really do..... then this weight carrying wouldn't be an issue.
axptguy, I have to agree with the others about queuing at the supermarket. You wouldn't.....right? ;-)
"This thread reminds me of a trip to Koh Samui ......." I think Dora has a point there. I think that some employers are WAAY out of line for putting their helpers in positions where their own values and manners are compromised. Eg. Rushing into the train to get seats for her employer's family, then risk being sworn at by other passengers. I've witnessed this. Some employers do this themselves too. This, I think is unfair. Mine used to do this. She'd rush to get a seat and then she'd offer it to me. I always decline. She got the seat, it is hers. My daughter sometimes sits on her lap but she's three so most of the time she's swirling on the pole.
"I'm still wondering whether it makes ANY difference if the ill-behaving employer was expat or not"
I've seen both! How to respect others depends more on a person's values and upbringing.
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"axptguy, I have to agree with the others about queuing at the supermarket. You wouldn't.....right? ;-) "
Well, as I mentioned I mostly shop alone nowadays so it's a non issue. There's also the fact that I typically will let someone with 2 items past if I have a whole cart. I do try to balance my karma. ;)
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Assuming that Dora was on the same flight, yes, the people in question were definitely expats. As many posters mentioned above, nationality does not count, manners do. Many posters here refer to the poor treatment of helpers by local employers, but in percentage terms, there are probably as many appalling expat employers.
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Thanks mum of 2 wish i know what shop they owned as I would bycott it too...
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Carrying one's ward (s) school bag (s), holding a line for one's employer, whatever the reason/s might be in my opinion -as a domestic help hardly, qualifies as slavery or "slavery".
Annoying, yes. Irritating, yes. Diva like, perhaps. Annoying and irritating because it is likely to disrupt the helper's time table and the longer it takes one to queue, the less time she will have to do other things that some (unhappy/unappreciative/inconsiderate) employer may take against her and start to whine.
Letting kids carry their own bags or let their helpers carry them could also be a cultural thing. The same way how children raised by different culture behaves differently, say at dinner table or with guests around.
Back home, when we go shopping we sometimes ask our helper to queue in a taxi line for us. Not only this saves as time, it also gives her time to reply or send text messages. Since she is a very sociable person, she seem to always find new friends by doing that.
When I was working with my American employer, I had done the same for him a few times but I've never thought of it as anywhere near as being treaded like a slave. Nor when I offered my boss to queue at 6:30am in front of British Museum to get tickets to see the Terracotta Army - in snow! Graciously, she refused but since it was part of my plan anyway, we agreed to go on the same day , just different time slot.
There are helpers who survived on a piece of toast and black tea in the morning, a packet of instant noodle for lunch and left overs for dinner. Helpers who dreaded after office hours not knowing what fault her employer could come up with just so she could tell her off when she gets home. Helpers who slept in the stock room, bath tub, kitchen floor, walk in closet sometimes in fear that sir or uncle or grandpa might who seemed to be extra attentive when Madam is not looking might crept in.
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I just couldn't get my head around the bit where our helpers are supposed to be slaves because they get to carry the kids bags.....so if i carry it for my small son or my hubby carries it then we are slave drivers too!!! Unless you have your own kids??? you will realise just how heavy these bags are, my boy almost topples over bless....i havent read all of these topics in detail but just the heading and the OP caught my eye.
A lot of weird things happen here.....just accept it......
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I totally second aidanmama's response. If it's NOT the helper doing the things our kids need "assistance" in, then it's us, (the parents). So I hardly think "slavery" is the appropriate word. It's more of a difference in culture, as like many have mentioned, this is a forum intended for "expats". However, there are many who are NOT "expats" necessarily, but are locals, but have lived many years overseas who are frequent forumers here.
As I read this thread, I was beginning to sense, "expats" have become a upper class in race bunch of people.
We have helpers in Hong Kong as a "common" practice and factor in households because the pace, the lifestyle, the education system, the transportation, the schedule, administration, policies, and culture... are ALL quite unique in HK. Helpers are needed in most households for children because, simply put, Hong Kong is simply NOT a very baby/child friendly place. Most of the time, we, as parents have to leave our children at home to do our things, work outside for long hours.... if we bring our children out, then having a helper, an extra pair of hands just makes things much easier and safer a lot of the times.
There is always an "easier" way of getting some thing done, and there is the "harder" way.
Having a helper (a good one) often will make things easier. So if you can afford to pay $ 115.00 HKD extra a day for a pair of extra hands..... it's your choice to do so or not.
And I don't understand why having a helper stand in line for you is a problem. If you were in line behind the "helper", you obviously realize there is this ONE person in line before you. When it's time, the employer comes into the line, pays for the items, or whatever.... it's STILL nevertheless serving ONE person. What's the issue here? Because she's a HELPER (she's not allowed to line up ?) How do you know she's a HELPER anyways? Can't she be my relative? a friend?
Often I have to run into the supermarket to get a bunch of things, I have 10 minutes to do it before I pick up my child from kindergarten, so I ask my helper to line up first, I will come and pay for the items and this way, I am able to predict when I am out of there.
I have no problem with people having WHOEVER stand in line for them, whether it's a child, a helper, an elderly... so long as SOMEONE lined up and no one cut in line in front of me.
I think what bugs me the most in HK is lining up behind ATMs, and in washrooms. It's NEVER one LINE. It's by your luck whether you lined up BEHIND a quicker line or the slower line.
If you happen to pick the slower line, the person who JUST stepped into the bank, can be at the ATM machine already, while I am still standing behind a bunch of other people.
Just my 2 cents.
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Momoftwo, That is an excellent post. I totally agree about the lining up part. So long as someone is lining up, that's fine. It doesn't make me angry if the person with the actual stuff shows up at the last minute. IMHO life is too short to get angry and try to push back. Life is full of tiny annoyances and I will not add to them.
As an old friend used to say: "Always bring a book". I have a book with me 99% of the time. If I have to wait in line longer than usual, that just means I have a minute or five to read.
"As I read this thread, I was beginning to sense, "expats" have become a upper class in race bunch of people. "
Upper class. Sure. expats on average have way higher income than locals, so it's only logical that expats become part of the upper class.
"I think what bugs me the most in HK is lining up behind ATMs, and in washrooms. It's NEVER one LINE. It's by your luck whether you lined up BEHIND a quicker line or the slower line.
If you happen to pick the slower line, the person who JUST stepped into the bank, can be at the ATM machine already, while I am still standing behind a bunch of other people."
Hehe. So true. It's like a lottery. Murphy's law dictates that I always end up right behind the lady paying all her bills. Learn to Internet banking already! ;)
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Islandhopper
You are correct to say this describes perverted and extreme behavior, but what most people do not realize is that although it is extreme and perverted is is NOT rare, many DH has experienced this and more during the course of their 2 year contract. We can't really understand until we have walked in their shoes, felt this fear or wondered what they will request the next time. It is no wonder many girls have become very selective in their approach to finding an employer.
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thanks a lot for all the posts, although i still disagree with some things.
- Momoftwo: Finding it funny (let's say "funny") to use the helper to do the queue of the bus for me is because of a difference of culture? Mmmm, I don't think so.
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It's not "funny" in anyway Davidebard6md. It's simply an inconsistency in the polices/habits/administration procedures of the companies like banks, supermarkets, and retail stores here.
So in some ways, it IS a culture thing.
In N. America, we would NEVER have these problems or scenarios. People just DO NOT do this kind of thing. Then again, I find myself a LOT less hurried in Canada and USA than now, living in HK.
How about the "culture" of being interrupted while being served at a counter, cosmetic, or pharmacy, or a boutique or any store. I hate it when I am talking to the sales person behind a counter, in the MIDDLE of my sentence, a person would jump beside me, starts talking to the salesperson who was engaging the conversation with ME.... and he/she would actually start listening to that rude person, and walks off to help her with whatever... it's usually something quick, but when she comes back, she wouldn't even say, excuse me, or apologizes.
NOW, I just tell the RUDE person to WAIT, and tells the salesperson, " I AM TALKING TO YOU, I am here first. You have to ask this RUDE PERSON to wait."
I am educating these people one at a time... most of the time I have to do it once at least every 3 days.... it's sad, but that's the way it is here.
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i think we need to realise that Domestic helpers are also professionals like all of us..and that they work hard to earn like each one of us...and we really need to be reasonable with the domestic helpers..we got to be realistic about the amount of work they can do and be conscious of their need to be treated with dignity they truely deserve.
i dont have a domestic helper so i cant comment much.
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Hello everyone, I just wanted to say that I dont know how (or why) the title of this thread changed. Initially i wrote simply "Slavery?" and now i read "Is having a Domestic Helper Slavery?"
I repeat I dont know why was the title changed. I am really angry about it.
Anyway I dont think having a DH is slavery. I only wanted to express my disagreement to the 2 issues mentioned above (DH queuing in the bus for the employer and DH carrying the bags of kids -when they arent that heavy that is-).
Good day to everyone.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
My apologies - the title was amended to give indication that this Most Viewed thread was from the DH forum. I have amended the title back to it's initial intent
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Thanks a lot Ed, this site is fantastic, not to mention its Administrators. Thank you!
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Deleted post - please do not post racist comments on AsiaXPAT. If you are not sure what comprises racism (since HK has no laws against it...) here's some info much of it gleaned from a Canadian Govt website http://www.asiaxpat.com/racism/
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I am astonished that this thread of banality comes under the heading "is this slavery". Equating carrying school bags and unfair queuing with some of the most vicious brutality in human history is perverse. Obviously, the original post chose an inflammatory term to sensationalise the plight of helpers. But this demeans the suffering of slavery's real victims.
The UN estimates that today, at least 27 million persons are enslaved worldwide, "more than double the number of those who were deported in the 400-year history of the transatlantic slave trade to the Americas". Women and children are the primary targets of the modern slave trade. They come from all races and are sold in almost every country of the world. They then must spend their lives working as sex slaves and forced labourers.
So next time you are bemoaning the long queue or excessive weight of school books, instead consider how you might use your resources to solve a real problem.
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"I am astonished that this thread of banality comes under the heading "is this slavery". Equating carrying school bags and unfair queuing with some of the most vicious brutality in human history is perverse. Obviously, the original post chose an inflammatory term to sensationalise the plight of helpers. But this demeans the suffering of slavery's real victims."
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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waaaahhhh your nationality and hyphaloting'ity overshadowed the topic in here, as a DH it broke mah hear
neways, we're humans too. Those people above who said that some DH are turned to slave are either blind or pretending to be blind duh. Instead of reflecting on a given scenario, like that of maid carrying a lot of bags while big kids are carrying their butts *hahahihi, I observed the poster directed the topic to technicalities blahblahness.
DON'TS just incase you you you as employers will listen to a humble Dh not a servant hahahihi
1. don't slap/kick/hit us - although were stronger than you we dont have the courage to hit back since were just staying in you household not ours. we're not warriors but DHs not slave hahahihi
2. don't say fool words agaisnt us. like what while you're babbling dirty words on us you're showing us the real you, illmannered duh, etiquette where art thou?
3. don't let us work unitll midnight or 2 am. This is happening guys, some Hongkongers letting their maid to work till past midnight then wake up at 5am. A person needs at least 7 hours of sleep, just incase you're not aware of it.
4. don't let us work on our day offs, or else you gotta pay us extra bucks duh...
5. don't let queue for a bus hahahihi, I don't mind it though as long as it will not take much from my working time
6. don't let us carry 3 bags at a time. waaah Hongkongers you're babying your kids too much. I really cant understand the parenting skills of Hongkong mothers, well honestly, but what should I do but to go with the flow.
7. and etc. mga kababayan ko dagdagan nyo listahan kong ito (my fellow DHs, add up my list hahahihi)
ya know, A CRUEL PERSON WILL NOT BE BLESSED IN LIFE, dont you think?! that KARMA thing, I wonder if budhism - the major religion of Chinese, if I am right, believes in such.
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Well said Apple. What amazes me is that there are so many people who can't abide by these simple rules.
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axpt guy, my family does these things also. it's common decency and that means considering the helper a 'helper' not someone who must do everything!
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"axpt guy, my family does these things also. it's common decency and that means considering the helper a 'helper' not someone who must do everything!"
Hey, I wasn't accusing you. ;) But yes I agree with you. She is a "helper". It's right there in the name. The first mistake a lot of people make is forgetting that she is an employee.
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Taps
16 yrs ago
This is even worst, a Filipina ayi regularly massaged her employer's shoulders on whim for hours, very clean and tidy, also do manicure and pedicure.
And the nerve to fire the FDH on her return from home visit.. with another ayi.
I had a nasty verbal fight with the employer regarding her rights, ayi was duly renumerated, but we never spoke to each other again although we move in the same circle.
The friendship died that night.
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