Posted by
cc77
16 yrs ago
Hi all,
Had a chat with co-helpers during our ward's activity. Two of the helpers got a HUGE problem with their boss. The house has cameras around and the boss stays home to monitor their every move. The boss is a stay-in mother of twin. I mean, putting cameras at baby's room or playroom is reasonable, but around the house is exxagerated...aside from that, she(the employer) even stalls a recorder, her helpers are not allowed to talk in their own language. I mean, if she doesn't trust the helpers, why hired???? Since she doesnt work, why not take care of her children personally and don't make other people's lives miserable.
One incident happen that the boss hit the head of the helper for a very simple reason, she didn't look in the face of the boss while she was talking (the helper was changing the baby's diaper ).
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The excessive surveillance is awful. I have heard of several employers who do this sort of checking and micromanagement. It's tough on the helpers and in my opinion a real form of abuse. Unfortunately there's not much recourse apart from breaking the contract.
Physical is always unacceptable.
I must ask, however, what your question is? You seem to be just venting. Admittedly it is justified venting, but still...
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cc77
16 yrs ago
"I must ask, however, what your question is? You seem to be just venting."
Yup, I am venting....anyway, my question is, is there anyway or any law in hk that would punish this type of employer? Of course, its always depend on the helpers wether they still stay on that type of employers or not....breaking the contract is always the last resort.
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"my question is, is there anyway or any law in hk that would punish this type of employer?2
Unfortunately I don't think so, at least in practice.
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interesting point F355 - when we just hired a helper to look after our two babies the idea did cross my mind - we had never had helper before, I was a very paranoid (still am) 1st time mother and basically the helper (at the time) was a complete stranger - so I did think about a camera, maybe just for a bit at the start. But then, my helper said (without me mentioning it to her or anything) that if I ever install a camera, she will leave, she does not want to live with someone who does not trust her - so it was a tough one. I never did the camera.
Then, the story of the helper looking someone's kid in the bathroom the other week on this forum, made me think about it again... venting, as well I guess - we are both at work and our helpers love the kids and swear they would never hurt them - but you never know, do you?
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"i wish i have installed a camera then maybe i would know why the Parma Ham is so quick empty."
Maybe because, as you have mentioned before, you underpay her and she needs to eat.
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"Is it possible to put the camera inside the lamp?"
Absolutely. It's just a very small camera.
"I think it is common for employer to put the camera in every part of the house."
And so invasive. As you say, either the helper is good or bad. The camera doesn't change that. We TRUST our helper. No need for cameras.
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Whatt...the hell???.....putting a camera inside the toilet????...what do you think of you guys thinking here???...if i were your helper i will leave your house immediately..don't do any good for anyones if you were putting a camera inside your toilet.if your frds knows about it none of them will ever want to visit you.i think you need to go to the mental hospital b4 you gone too far and too much.simple if you can't trust anybody then don't hire any helper or don't invite anyone to your house then you'll be safe w/o wasting your money on the camera and don't have to make other life miserable for your own evil benefit okay.Thanks
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i really think someone is making stories up about one in the toilet, c'mon people - would anyone do this?
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cc77
16 yrs ago
"we are both at work and our helpers love the kids and swear they would never hurt them - but you never know, do you?"
normal mother feeling (am a mother too)..... but you will be more hurtful if you see them hurting your kids in the installed camera... its easy to know if your helpers are harming your kids actually...once the kids show unusual reaction when the nannies are around, you may start to investigate. But as long as the kids are too attached to their nannies, i guess there's nothing to worry about.
Anyway, the employer in my post is a stay-in-mother so she has more time actually to take care of her children personally instead of wasting her time monitoring them through cameras...what a waste! Aside from that, she even forbids them to speak their own laguange....that would be a 2 year tongue twisting if I were her helper....lol
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cc77
16 yrs ago
"if the helper has nothing to hide she shouldn't be bothered about."
Its not always the matter of hiding things in my opinion, its a matter of trust! If I knew that my boss has installed cameras, I would be very resentful, because that simply means she doesn't trust me...if she doesnt trust me then I must leave. I don't want to work to someone like that.
Read so many posts in this forum employers treat their helpers as their own family and would be very frustrating to know if one them has installed a camera to monitor this so called "family member".
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"Actually, if you hire and invite a person to live & work for you, you need to have mutual trust or else it's stressful for both parties."
Indeed. A camera is an assumptions of a non trusting relationship. I don't think it really helps the peace of mind of mothers to have cameras. I think it would just make them more stressed out.
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cc77,
Have you (and the helpers in question) considered the possibility that the mother is suffering from post-partum depression? While this may not excuse her conduct, it might go some way towards explaining her micro-management of her domestic help.
Many new mothers are anxious about their babies (and with twins this is doubly so!) and it can be a difficult time for both mother and helper until the relationship is established and the mother feels confident that the helper is good with the baby.
Trust (on either side of the relationship) does not arrive at the same time as the work visa - it has to be earned. You do not say but it appears that these helpers haven't been working that long for their employer. Perhaps time will improve the situation.
As ldsllvn says, it is very hard to leave your babies in the care of a stranger (and at the start of the contract that is exactly what a FDH is - a stranger from a different culture and, usually, social class). There have been a number of threads about the need to train FDHs to do what many would regard as simple household tasks - the need to feel confident about the helper's ability with babies is even more important.
Rather than feeling offended that they are not being trusted, it may be that the cameras (not in the toilet!) help with resolution of the problem. If the employer sees that the helpers are doing their jobs well she may relax and let them do their jobs without the irritating scrutiny.
The bottom line is that, if things do not improve, the helpers can leave. That is the beauty of the freedom to contract. if the employer is truly difficult, there is every chance that she will be black-listed (as Jacky Cheung and his wife were not so long ago).
It may be, however, that all the FDHs need to do at this time is vent to their colleagues (as perhaps your friends were) about what is, no doubt, a difficult time for them, do their jobs well and wait for trust to develop.
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"trust is good but control is better."
Of course control should be an element. However if the control is so heavy-handed that trust goes out of the window, it defeats the purpose.
"Trust (on either side of the relationship) does not arrive at the same time as the work visa - it has to be earned. "
Great quote. I hope you don't mind that I use it.
"do their jobs well and wait for trust to develop."
This is true. However this assumes that the cameras will be removed. I doubt that will happen.
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beancurd,
You state 'You show kindness and care to your helper, then, the helpers will be kind to you in return, giving good service, taking care of the children and the household as their own'. Thankfully true in most cases but there are always exceptions! Some people (whether FDH, employers whatever) are just manipulative and cheat and lie. Unfortuantely most people when cheated become somewhat cynical feeling their trust was misplaced and they try to not let it happen again in a similar situation.
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its getting hot in here. I knew a guy who would put a hidden camera on a bathroom with get hot as well when the helper (specially if she's a pretty type) is taking a bath.
what paranoia vs trust... if you're paranoid then don't hire maid if you choosed to hire a maid then trust them duh...
we spent a lot of money in coming here, mostly loaned, thus once were here we're doing our best to extend our emplyment to the max so that we can pay the money we spent in coming here and earn an income.
well, I don't care if my boss will put on a hidden camera in every corner of their flat EXCEPT in the bathroom and in my room of course, else that will give me an impression that they're a pervert hehaho.
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"what paranoia vs trust... if you're paranoid then don't hire maid if you choosed to hire a maid then trust them duh..."
Well said. Trust IMPLIES not micromanaging and monitoring their every move. You can't control everything. If you think you can you are deluding yourself.
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Use away axptguy38....
You say: "This is true. However this assumes that the cameras will be removed. I doubt that will happen."
My feeling is that even if the cameras aren't removed the employer is unlikely to use them properly (ie turn them on) or watch the film.
Did you know that the cameras at ATM machines are only used randomly? Someone once withdrew money from our account when my absent-minded husband left his card in the machine and the police told us that the camera isn't being operated most of the time.
It would be an enormous endeavour to film 4 or 5 rooms 12 hours a day and then watch what must be rather tedious footage - every day!! And this by the mother of twin babies.... I don't think so. I think she is relying on the helpers' fear of being filmed to establish "control" rather than monitoring their every move.
This could be tested - the helper could talk to a camera (or hold up a sign that says "have a nice day"!) and see if it elicits a response. My bet would be there no response from the employer.
I continue to think that, once the employer feels confident that the helpers are doing a good job the relationship will improve - and the helpers are then in a position to ask for the cameras to be removed.
I feel sorry for the employer - I think that such extreme and invasive action which risks alienating the helpers she needs indicates her relative powerlessness rather than control. Although it can't be pleasant for the helpers, I think they have the upper hand here.
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cc77
16 yrs ago
smallfry
I understand very well your point. On the other hand, in my post, the mother of twin is a stay-in employer. She has ALL her precious time to take care of the kids PERSONALLY not to monitor the EVERY move of her helpers. If she doesn't trust her helpers in what they do, do it herself. I wouldn't have to say this because I'm not in the position to say so but (in a matter of common sense) she should hire HELPERS to help her do the housechores only and NOT for her kids.
As what I said in my post, personally, I won't mind having cameras installed at baby's room/playroom for safety reasons, but this employer is giving her helpers a hard time by having these cameras everywhere and not being allowed to speak in their own languange.
How did they know that they're being monitored? They spoke once in tagalog when they were sure the employer was about to get into the lift then not a minute later the employer rang the doorbell and scolded them. I dont think this is still about the 'post-partum depression' thing.
ALL, I mean, ALL helpers have to pass a psychological test before they can work abroad (in philippines, don't know the other country). Its a MUST! I just dont know if employers here in hk have to do the same. (no offense)
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speaking of this..... I wish my boss will install a camera on her house so she will know how nicely behaved (is my grammar right, whatever) and good her kids are when she's not around. so she can compare how naughty and rude they are on her presence hahahehe I will say again, except on the bathroom and in my room...
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cc77
16 yrs ago
"Trust (on either side of the relationship) does not arrive at the same time as the work visa - it has to be earned."
Respect doesn't arrive at the same time as the work visa - it has to be earned. Employers who installed a camera to monitor their helpers every move think they earn the respect of their helpers?? Hardly, in fact , they're being more alienated from each other and the helpers are being more resentful.
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apple 79,
speaking of this..... I wish my boss will install a camera on her house so she will know how nicely behaved (is my grammar right, whatever) and good her kids are when she's not around. so she can compare how naughty and rude they are on her presence hahahehe
--- most kids act like this when their parents are around, this is because they all want attention from them. My kids are like this sometimes because they all compete for attention when I come home (I have 3 girls). They all want me to cuddle each one of them, sometimes, all 3 at the same time :-O
I don't think my kids are naughty nor rude when I'm around, it's just they tend to seek for attention from me by clinging on me hahaha
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cc77
I agree that the employers behaviour, as you describe it, is unreasonable, unpleasant and disrespectful. The issue I raised was "why would she behave like this?"
I think that most (all?) employers want their homes to be happy, harmonious spaces. It is clearly not in our interests to have resentful unhappy helpers so it is unusual that someone could be so extreme in her management.
As I said before, if the helpers find the situation intolerable, they can resign - end of story. However, if they want to improve the situation, they need to put themselves in her shoes and see what motivates her behaviour.
I do not see why you so easily dismiss the possibility of post natal depression. It would also explain why she does not feel competant to look after the babies herself. Additionally (or alternatively) if the babies are the result of IVF or other fertility treatment, she may be particularly anxious because it has been a hard time getting to this point. The babies might have been premature, as many twins are, or have other issues which give rise to extreme anxiety.
I continue to think that it is more likely that her behaviour is motivated by fear and a feeling of powerlessness rather than a power trip. If the helpers can empathise there is a possibility that they could work through this situation. However, if she truly is a monster, they should leave.
I think it is hard to under-estimate the work involved in looking after twins in their first year. I had no help for the first three months of my twins' lives and it was so exhausting I can hardly remember that period. Even with two wonderful helpers for the next two years, I was still the primary care-giver for all three of my children (then all under the age of 3) and we all worked quite hard...
Someone else mentioned karma. If the helpers can be generous in their dealings with the employer it could be that their goodwill is reciprocated.
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xmauix
yes yes, I understand that ma'am... cuddling is sweet. Me and my boss give a lot of hugs and kisses to her kids too. Ehrm, I only give to the younger one. Ya know DHs have favorites among your kids too, sad to say...
but what am talking about is not that attention seeking gestures... but naughtiness that is getting into their mom's (and seldom even to mine) nerve. hahahehe ops I think am about to start a gossip of my household na nah, not in here...
but hey, since most of the members in here are employers, would you like to know those things that we your beloved or hated DHs often talk about you... hahahehe yes, yes indeed we often talk about our employers.... specially those bad employers.....
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cc77
16 yrs ago
smallfry
In general sense, employers like the one I was talking about shouldn't employ a helper.Met her twice at my ward's activity and I would say she's a 'monster'. Most dhs if not all could easily get along with their employers if the employer however doesnt scold the helper everytime they do things thats not exactly what the employer wanted it to be done. If they suffer the what you called post partum deppression whatever it is, hiring a helper and installed a camera to monitor her every move wouldn't solve the problem. It would actually create a problem between them. An employer has to explain to the helper what she wants things to be done in a mild manner so as to gain the respect of the helper not by this extreme micro management.
"
I do not see why you so easily dismiss the possibility of post natal depression. It would also explain why she does not feel competant to look after the babies herself. Additionally (or alternatively) if the babies are the result of IVF or other fertility treatment, she may be particularly anxious because it has been a hard time getting to this point. The babies might have been premature, as many twins are, or have other issues which give rise to extreme anxiety."
Well, a new comer helper(even those well experienced) would understand and would try to emphatise IF and IF an employer say things at least in a mild manner not yelling. First, a helper has to deal her own home sickness and yet there she is dealing to another depressed employer. thats awful. And also, If an employer isn't competent enough to handle her babies, she should trust the one she hired to at least lessen her depression. Am not sure if im making sense here but one thing im sure of,,micro management will not gain the real respect of helpers to their employers.
" However, if she truly is a monster, they should leave."
Theyre leaving. One has been terminated and the other one will break her contract this coming month. The employer has been blacklisted and not allowed to hire filipino helpers anymore.
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cc77
You say,
"Most dhs if not all could easily get along with their employers if the employer however doesnt scold the helper everytime they do things thats not exactly what the employer wanted it to be done.";and
"Well, a new comer helper(even those well experienced) would understand and would try to emphatise IF and IF an employer say things at least in a mild manner not yelling."
I agree that the employer's behaviour in this case is not reasonable - if it was there wouldn't be a problem, would there?
It seems that while we have been debating this point, the issue has been resolved - why was the first helper terminated? I am pleased than the second helper has taken a stand to decide her future and hope that her next situation is happier.
I am curious though as to why you seem upset and angry that I have asked whether it is possible that the helpers could have been more understanding of their unreasonable employer; whether there could have been a different resolution to this problem by the helpers taking control of the employer and turning the situation around.
I think that very often there is a mis-conceived view that employers have all the power and helpers none. The best helpers I know have been aware of their power within the relationship and known how to balance the interests of both parties, even with unreasonable or demanding employers.
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cc77
16 yrs ago
" why was the first helper terminated? I am pleased than the second helper has taken a stand to decide her future and hope that her next situation is happier."
Simply because the employer doesnt like her face and both of them are very happy to leave.
" I am curious though as to why you seem upset and angry that I have asked whether it is possible that the helpers could have been more understanding of their unreasonable employer"
Yup I'm upset that this kind of thing happen to some dhs; having an employer like this one....and nope I'm not angry for you asking wehter it is possible that helpers could be more understanding of the unreasonable employer, in fact I myself do that often to my unreasobale employer. Just so happen that I'd like you to consider the feeling of new comers whose dealing to their homesickness instead of dealing with their depressed monster employer>(like this one of course)
"I think that very often there is a mis-conceived view that employers have all the power and helpers none. The best helpers I know have been aware of their power within the relationship and known how to balance the interests of both parties, even with unreasonable or demanding employers."
Employers have all the power to give the command and helpers have all the power to obey.(kidding) Every person has his own match...its like looking for a husband, always looking for the perfect one.
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hehehe so what's up evryone?
as long as i dont hurt my self and i dont hurt anybody i hope nobady will hurt me hehehe. i believe in god, so i have peace of mind.
evryone need to overcome roadblocks of their life on which that will make us strong individual. on what will happen to our roadway we dont know, accept evry obstacle positively and you will and up in a right way then soon arrive on your destination safely. i hope this wording will help even jst a bit. thanks for reading have a nice day...... :<)
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Guys, every new mom worries about a child who can't speak. I thought of installing cameras when my little ones were little, but instead, I just checked references thoroughly and crept in unexpectedly a few times. It helped. If having a camera helps the parents let go, why not? They should become bored in a few days and relax. If you see the helper doing things like stealing a bit of food, I'd let it go myself, but some other people wouldn't. I'd only suggest employers see if their kids are getting hurt, but parents would know if their kids were bruised or underfed.
As for cameras in the toilet, well, I have to say, i wouldn't voluntarily watch anyone use a toilet unless I was potty training my child!!!!!!!! what kind of pervert is that? i'd think there would be a law against that and hitting a helper.
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glad
16 yrs ago
F355:Iam wondering if you ever think before you type and send your comments...Just a piece of advice think before you leap! Of all the stuff you have why the ham? it's so cheap!
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
Ha ha, when I see the word 'pervert', I wouldn't help thinking of apple79 calling me that....I really wasn't angry at such a silly remark as she seemed to be so naive & extreme in what she had written. I think she understands the situation better now as it had been pointed out to her of which I'm so relieved!
To the OP: Sorry for this intrusion.
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