Posted by
jodies
16 yrs ago
This is one for the books. We thought we had the "perfect" helper. She has been with us since we arrived in HK 3 years ago. She dosn't need direction, fantastic with my 4 children, keeps my home ship shape and really the only thing we would say was not up to much is her cooking. She is treated as part of the family, paid well, given holidays and days off. She is always advancing her salary and then paying it off over time. Im not sure if I was taken advange of, or just stupid, but I have recently found out that she is a "load shark". Her and her sister borrow money from a Filipino bank and then divy it out to others at 10% interest. The way I found out was that another helper called me crying that mine owed her money. After talking with her several times, there have been loads of lies. So, what do I do??? Get rid of her or think what she does in her own time is her business???/ What would you do.
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maxis
16 yrs ago
That doesn't sound nice!
10% per month or per year?
Anyhow, if it is illegal, you must cut her loose.
If it is not illegal, then you could be in for serious trouble.
What about when another "organisation" feels she is encroaching on their turf?
You don;t want your family exposed to that!
However, many people benefit from loan sharks to get deposits to buy property (i.e. on-recorded debt allows them to) in other countries, do it tough for a year or so, then just pay the bank.....means to and end so to speak.
But it is the vice that comes with such activities which makes it dubious, and it is an industry you want to be well distanced from.
I'd let her go - it is up to you how you do it.
If you report her, she'll know who did.
Or if you don't report and just let her go, you may be allowing the activities to continue. Also, you don't know aboput who (or if) she uses for enforcement of loans, and that is another industry you certainly dont want to go near !
Debt which cant be repaid results in more and more interst, harassment etc. It ruins lives for many people.Remember, only desperate people utilise loan sharks. It is an industry that always has existed and always will.
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I wrote about this problem in a thread several months ago. Here is how it goes.....
The "original" lender will not lend any money below HK30,000. Many girls do not/cannot be "on the hook" for such a large amount. Therefore, they do one of 2 things (that I know about) that is they ask someone to co sign for them, or they take the loan under their own name, and then make sub-loans and make some profit on it themsleves (ie the 10%), but the loan shark type of loan has a much higher interest rate than a regular bank.
Many,many DH default on loans because there are these types of easy money loans avaialable. They have terrible pressure from home to send extra money, borrow on these types of loans rather easily, lose thier jobs and leave HK.
As for the legality, I would say that would be hard to prove unless you have testimony, I doubt if any of the girls would bring charges or testify. Under the terms of your contract, you can dismiss her, but I suggest you ask an immigration officer if your grounds for dismissal could cause a case to be brought against you for unfair dismissal, "unless you have proof"
I suggest you tell your DH how displeased and unhappy you are that she is involved in this type of enterprise. How carefully you will be monitering her now that you have "lost faith" in her character and see how see reacts. Is she remorseful and willing to get out of this, or do you have a closet loan shark dressed as your DH?
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Very simply get rid! Your family and house could be in danger otherwise.
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shem
16 yrs ago
Since she is serving your family well and I don't think she will pose a threat to your family, I guess all you need is just to remind her that taking advantage of others weaknesses will not be tolerated next time.
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funny enough, my helper once asked for $25,000 that she would pay me back over a year (nevermind that her contract runs out in 3 months, v presumptios) - which i of course refused to give to her. She told me it is for loaning to other helpers at 10%!!! I nearly fell off the chair, she said, i have to look after my family and other friends always ask to borrow money, so i can make a bit of money that way... I told her it was illegal and that was the end of discussion - but given a chance I suspect they all would try something like that... they are out here to earn money for their family - whether it is morally right way or not...
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I agree with LG is MV. This is standard practiice in the Phils and Indonesia. Many helpers in HK are doing this and I don't think yr helper is doing anything out of the ordinary.
I am not sure that what your helper is doing is illegal - immoral maybe. But then again what many helpers get up to in Wan Chai on a Sunday afternoon is both illegal and immoral but keeps families alive in the Phil and Indonesia.
I second LG is MV's comments about pre-paid phone cards. Girls buy them and resell them for a 10% mark-up.
I know it's a dilemma for you but plea be aware that many Dh's in HK are doing this to supplement their meagre income. Whatever happend to free enterprise?
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thanks for info
now i inderstand why my ex-dh was advancing money all the time and why she took a loan from the bank, which i discovered only after she quit!?!
if only i had known earlier
funny how she did it from the first month or rather 1st week of her stay in hk?!
guess the network is pretty well known eh?
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So jodies what did you do? I`m sure there are others like me waiting to hear the outcome. Fire her? Warn her? Ignore it?
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alk
16 yrs ago
based on your description of her efficiency in the work that you have hired her for, i think all you need to do is to talk to her about her extra income activities, and tell her that you are not comfortable with it. all you need is communication and agree on something.
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Get rid, our ex-helper went into a loan with her friend who ended up getting terminated, my wife and I started getting calls from this agency demanding payment, we ended up getting about 10 call a day from the agent. We fired our helper and even after she had returned to the Philippines we were still getting calls. Finaly I had enough of them saying that they would come to the house so I dared them too, they actually had the brass to turn up, 11:30 at night, I might have been the last time they did that, one of the guys tried to push his way into our apartment which is VERY illegal and i caught him right on the chin. I called the police who came over in a matter of seconds and arrested the two guys one of which had a few missing teeth. I explained at the station what happened and was given a slap on the wrist. One year later the calls started again, this time i just reported them to the police straight away.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Word of advice... often (usually?) debt collectors have triad associations so be careful with confronting them with violence as they may come back with choppers.
You may recall the poor fellow at the post sevens party a few years back who was almost killed after a colleague ejected a high level triad... and even though she threatened violence and was overheard calling in the goons, she was not imprisoned.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
I think locking the door and calling the police would be the ideal way to handle this... I know of one person - quite a large and tough customer - who laid into some youths for smoking in a non-smoking place - he ended up in intensive care when they attacked him... I also recall an expat bouncer in LKF getting into a physical confrontation with a man who turned out to be a triad - the man returned with his crew and pulverized the doorman putting him in the hospital.
All I am saying is you take your life into your hands when you physically attack someone who is quite likely involved in a triad society.
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Sorry, I failed to mention that the two guys who showed up at my door were not Chinese but were in fact Fillipino. He tresspassed onto my property, had i smacked him in the hallway which is a "common area", I could have been charged with assault, what I did was a result of being very angry that me and my wife had become involved because the maid had supplied our address and telephone number (a requirement of getting the loan) and because when I opened the door my wife was standing behind me with my 3 month old son. Any father would have done the same.
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I had an unfortunate experience that just ended a week ago. My maid signed as a guarantor for her friend who may have failed to pay. They kept on calling the house many times a day. I finally decided to change my number. Cost me HKD50 and that's the end of that. As for the loan shark, it consists of at least 3 people, 2 Chinese and 1 Filipino.
Anyway Jodies, better to get rid of your maid now as you dont know who she liases with for these kinds of activities. And yes what she is doing is definitely illegal and immoral.
Although selling phonecards might be illegal, it's totally not immoral. So we shouldnt at all compare the 2 together.
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please get rid of her before too late.....
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As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the rules are governing debt collection agencies? I have a friend who signed up for California Fitness for a year, and after 3 months stopped going and paying (he went backrupt) anyway, this was a year ago, and now he has started getting calls twice a day on his mobile, and more recently at work. He has already had himself declared bankrupt through the courts and pays two thirds of his salary to his creditors.
Just wondered where the boundaries are, and where you can find them online. There must be strict rules on this in HK.
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Hi, if you are waiting to see the outcome of this situation - read on. I had a serious talk with her and as I asked more questions and dug around, there are more and more lies. I know she is not a bad person, she is just a woman who is trying to make a little money on the side for her family who is actually very bad with money. I am still getting calls from the other helper crying and saying that my helper still owes her money and she is going to report her to authorities. My problem with that is that I know she has been doing some part time work and the "other" helper is going to dob her in. After some discussions with friends, there are stories of visas being turned down and as our visa is up for renewal in Feb we have decided do say goodbye to our helper. I just need to find the right time as my husband and I have some travel for work coming up and we have no family here to help. She knows she is on the way out, as she has been working "extra" hard. So now I start the journey of finding the next "perfect" helper!.....................will let you know of the outcome.
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Hi, if you are waiting to see the outcome of this situation - read on. I had a serious talk with her and as I asked more questions and dug around, there are more and more lies. I know she is not a bad person, she is just a woman who is trying to make a little money on the side for her family who is actually very bad with money. I am still getting calls from the other helper crying and saying that my helper still owes her money and she is going to report her to authorities. My problem with that is that I know she has been doing some part time work and the "other" helper is going to dob her in. After some discussions with friends, there are stories of visas being turned down and as our visa is up for renewal in Feb we have decided do say goodbye to our helper. I just need to find the right time as my husband and I have some travel for work coming up and we have no family here to help. She knows she is on the way out, as she has been working "extra" hard. So now I start the journey of finding the next "perfect" helper!.....................will let you know of the outcome.
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Hi, if you are waiting to see the outcome of this situation - read on. I had a serious talk with her and as I asked more questions and dug around, there are more and more lies. I know she is not a bad person, she is just a woman who is trying to make a little money on the side for her family who is actually very bad with money. I am still getting calls from the other helper crying and saying that my helper still owes her money and she is going to report her to authorities. My problem with that is that I know she has been doing some part time work and the "other" helper is going to dob her in. After some discussions with friends, there are stories of visas being turned down and as our visa is up for renewal in Feb we have decided do say goodbye to our helper. I just need to find the right time as my husband and I have some travel for work coming up and we have no family here to help. She knows she is on the way out, as she has been working "extra" hard. So now I start the journey of finding the next "perfect" helper!.....................will let you know of the outcome.
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Be wary of leaving your utility bills within easy reach. Helpers applying for loans from Financial Institutions pinch them for use as proof of address. I understand the loan sharks, or 5/6 agent as they are known in the Philippines charge an interest rate of 10% per month. Many helpers come under a lot of pressure from home for funds above their means, bank loans, 5/6, part time work are the tools used to accumulate funds.
The sad end result of this may be trouble coming to your door. Who needs that, personally, if the subject of the thread confessed and quit her loan sharking.......I would give a second chance......based upon the fact that she does her contracted job well. But the denials and lies deserve no mercy.
Jodies, I would check to see how many bank loans your helper may have taken out. If you can !!!! You may discover a few more skeletons in the closet.
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"As a matter of interest, does anyone know what the rules are governing debt collection agencies? I have a friend who signed up for California Fitness for a year, and after 3 months stopped going and paying (he went backrupt) anyway, this was a year ago, and now he has started getting calls twice a day on his mobile, and more recently at work. He has already had himself declared bankrupt through the courts and pays two thirds of his salary to his creditors.
Just wondered where the boundaries are, and where you can find them online. There must be strict rules on this in HK".
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If your friend has gone bankrupt the game is over for the collection agencies. Nothing they can do. All pre-bankruptcy debts woud have been included in the bankruptcy and the Official Receiver in HK should have written to every creditor (they sometimes miss one or two).
Your friend shoud simply refer the matter to the OR. Attempting to collect a pre-bankruptcy debt from a bankrupt is illegal although the creditor will probably say they were unaware of the bankruptcy (which may be true).
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Ignore her as long as she does a good job for you and your family. These things are common practice in s.e. asia. It's not for us to judge as we are from different cultures/countries.
My DH co-signed a loan and apparently never paid it back: her problem! She never took anything from me or my house; she is a great helper and a great nanny that's enough for me. I do not pretend to understand and judge as much as I do not want to be judged as I am sure there are things in our behaviours that DH might jusdge as "immoral". Never forget the cultural gap!
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mdap
16 yrs ago
Taking out a loan is acceptable. Acting as a loan shark .. i.e. making loans to others and expecting interest in return is actually a breach of the law - and to be really pedantic the laws as stated by the SFC. Regardless, your maid is employed to be your DH, therefore setting up another business is illegal and she should be terminated. If you let this drag, eventually you will get caught up in the eventual problems she will bring to your home. If she wants to be a banker, get a job in a bank.
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My helper desperately wants a job in a bank! Any advice you could give? She is reluctant to apply directly as Immigration have told her this could be in breach of her visa here.
She also says her lack of solid literacy and qualifications (she was forced to leave school when she was 12 as her mother sadly passed away) would be a hinderance even if she could get an interview and I think she is starting to lose confidence in herself.
I have been asking around on her behalf for the last couple of years but so far - nothing! Really appreciate any advice you could give - any light at the end of the tunnel is surely better than none!
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mdap
16 yrs ago
Gee 'simonjoneshk', my father died when I was 14 .. I still managed. But if you feel so sorry for your domestic, pay her a salary of say 45,000 a month - I think that's what a trainee in the dealing room gets ... then you can feel you have served her well and righted the injustice of maid so called slavery in HK! yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn
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Simon, it could be very hard for her to get such a job ain HK.
How about showing her this thread and if she has an interest in loan sharking then she may like to set up her own company ? This way she'd hen be her own boss and might qualify for a business visa.
She'd probably have to leave HK and re-enter theough, but I suppose she could use this to drum up business in the philippines whilst she is away.
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Oh my god. I could have written that post. I have had calls from various tearful helpers and debt collection agencies - in the end we reported it to the police and changed our phone number. I couldn't work out why she needed the money, now I know she was loaning it out.
She has been working for us for two years, and not one month has gone by where she has not asked for a cash advance. Everything suddenly makes sense. And yes, utilities bills - well, actually all our credit card bills - have gone missing, as mentioned by Magic Dragon (tho I have no proof she took them).
If she's borrowing money and lending it though, why are other helpers saying she owes them? Also, in what way can it affect us having our visas renewed? Is this a genuine possibility? I genuinely like the woman and don't want to fire her, but I have to take this threat seriously, and her contract is due for renewal next month. All info gratefully received.
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Simon. yeah it might be hard for her as most of the banks that hires filipino prefer the residents or dependent visa holder applicants.
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It is illegal, not only because of the massive interest but also because, as stated by someone, we are hired her under a very specific job.
The sad story is that, 10%/month interest on loan ( interest paid up front) is still on the low. The going rate nowadays is 12-15 %. Booking, as I know is essential otherwise, 20% is the rate for emergency loans.
Who are their capitalist? Their boyfriends, husband( who are married to local/expats), group load from finance company where they split the income.
Why the need for such? Many reasons, mainly beause even before a maid come to H, she/he is already , on average in debt for as much as 10 months salary that is being charged between 5-20%. Then the sudden demand and expactations from the family who though since their wife/child/sister/husband got a job in HK, she/he now free to pick money up on tress and suddenly, for them money comes delivered in to their doorsteps or coms out from the hole. For some, as we all know, is being wisely spent to educate a family, buy their medicines, feed them within reason. Others borrowed money because they need to buy more jewelries, latest mobile phone, more clothes or simply because they lost their supposed remittances on race horse or simply innocent card games.
I bailed out a handful of friends in such situation. Loaning them the money, they tend not to pay back that in the end, costs our friendship. the legitimate ones that I bailed out, is paying me a 2% interest. They do not need to give me their passport and I never call them when they did not pay. No papers were signed though the amount involved at one point was 15k on one person alone ( all paid up). The sweet thing is, their 2% interest are all kept in a piggy bank...waiting to be wrapped when I finally get back to HK... as their xmas present.
What should you do...it's your call. Legally she is doing something not right. Morally, you know she is a "perfect" helper and you know. It's tough and whatever you decide, someone will feel hard done by.
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Hi Mdap
Sorry to hear about your sad loss. Good feedback and advice.
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Hello,
To all the people out there with helpers.If they are new to HK, you should set them down,And tell them, Alot of helpers here inHK,are not the same trusting people they are used to back home, Alot of these have picked up bad habits,
tell them they should never borrow, or loan money to any friends aat all. Most will not pay them back,They call these friends sisters, cousins. they never knew these other girls untill they meet here in HK.
So many are so nieve and trusting, so they will give there money to these so called friends,, Please help them out and try to explain this to them.
These girls come from homes where every one knows each other and trust each other, So tell them the difference please.
The small money they get paid here is so not enough, but it will do for them, They can survive and help their families back home, and still save some..
Just please help to explain to them about all the traps and bad influences here in
HK.. They will take care of your childeren,and you, so help them back, They all need it,,
The ones that loan the money or borrow money from friends, are all doing wrong, So watch them..even if it is just spending too much, If ya care for them
talk to them, help them fiqure out a budget.
I have met some very nice ones here and seen and met some very bad
ones that should be trown out of HK,
Thanks Carpenter.
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