Pregnant helper

Hi


We now in HK for 2 years and so is our helper and we just renewed her contract.

Our helper kept mum until we renewed her contract and just 2 days after that she informed me that she is 2 and half months pregnant.


We also came to know that we have to move out of HK in another 4-5 months


I am aware that helper contact cannot be terminated under normal circumstances if they are pregnant..

Since we have to relocate , I just want to make sure there is no complications in terminating the contract due to this reason after 4-5 months when we leave HK due to our relocation


Also until how many weeks she can work and when she is supposed to start her maternity leave

..?


What expenses are we liable

Thanks in advance for your help

maternity leave


she will be entitled for a mandatory 10 weeks leave in hk (if on a continuous contract and having worked for 40 weeks.) She will need to get a certificate of pregnancy from a doctorstating the expected due date.


days taken for check-ups are counted as sick leaves.


An additional 2-4 weeks leave can be added at the discretion of the employer.


pay rate is at 80% of the usual wage.


she cannot be made to work in hazardous areas and operate heavy machineries.


pregnant employees cannot be terminated without good reason. (i think relocation is good reason)


this is taken from the hongkongs residents guide

but if you dont want pregnant helper then ?is any way i can send her back

thanks

but my was lie to me she is her only 1 1/2 month i see her vomiting every morning when i ask her wht is problem she said she is having cough that why after i take her to doc there they told us she is 8 to 10 week pregnent now what i have to do?

i have big family 4 kids even iam not very good health i have some problem my medical is very high that why i hire one helping hand but now this is problem

Firstly how do you know she lied to you? She may not have known she was pregnant - hell that happened to my wife, was ill for a while and didn't think anything of it until she went to see the doctor who told her she was pregnant - she'd always suffered irregular periods so had no idea.


Anyway whether she did or did not lie to you is not the issue. The issue is your responsibility as an employer which gives your helper the same rights as any other pregnant employee in HK.

I understand where you are coming from.


I would be incredibly irate if I knew my Helper had become pregnant and informed me about it just after the signing of a new contract. I have three children and I know how hard it is to look after children when you are pregnant. I know that the care I would expect from my Helper would not be same if she were pregnant so in the end, my children would suffer.


I know every pregnant woman has rights but when the care of your own children is involved and may suffer, then you have every right to feel concern.


I hope all goes well!

thanks for ur all kind sugg

iam not going to throw her iam human and a mum i know this

thanks you very much

lovetc, feel sorry that you need to deal with a difficult situation, and glad that you know what to do.


And I think some of the above comments could have been rephrased in a nicer way. lovetc did not say she wanted to "get rid of" her helper after she's informed of her obligations by Greenvalleys. Sure employers all have the obligations to pregnant employees. We have to admit, though, having a pregnant employee living in your house means a lot more to deal with on the part of the employer than having a pregnant employee in an office which pretty much means finding someone to cover her work for a few months. And an employer who has four kids and whose own health is not good certainly has more to worry about when the helper gets pregnant than an employer who, for example, only employed the helper to look after pets. Of course they all have to obey the law and respect the helper's rights, but you have to allow people to express their frustration sometimes, maybe on a forum like this. And, instead of just throwing in cold scolding, maybe it's better to offer constructive advice on how to handle this situation so that the employer can better respect the helper's rights.


For example, if the helper goes back to her own country to give birth, when should the employer let her go? Legally the maternity leave probably won't start close to delivery, but she probably won't be able to get onto a plane when it's that close, so does that mean the employer practically should give her longer maternity leave? For another example, if the helper wants to give birth in Hong Kong, how should the employer handle the living arrangement and who's going to take care of the helper? I read this thread and gosh what a disaster for both parties! (http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/hong-kong-domestic-help/threads/121878/pregnant-helper-wants-to-give-birth-in-hong-kong/) And since a lot of employers don't have enough room for an additional helper, how to best arrange for work coverage?


These and others questions are what puzzle employers when their helper gets pregnant. If people on this forum can provide helpful advice, things may be better for both the employer and the helper.


Still better is for the employer to carefully consider everything BEFORE hiring a helper -- it means more than paying the salary, providing food and accommodation, buying insurance, etc. It also means other possible situations that you may find a little surprising and unprepared for, such as a helper's pregnancy. Make sure you can deal with it before you decide to hire. Or, if you don't think you can deal with it, then my understanding is that your options are: 1. not hiring, 2. hiring a local live-out helper, or 3. hiring an older helper past child bearing age.


I'm also in the process of hiring a helper and as I'm pregnant myself and working full time it'll be very hard if I have another pregnant woman living in my home. Therefore I have decided to go with either option 2 or 3. Maybe I am overcautious, but after reading that other thread about pregant helper insisting to stay in the pregant employer's home during maternity leave, I bet I'd jump out of the window if I were that pregnant employer. And people may blame me for inappropriate profiling, maybe yes but it's more rational to do so on my part and better than being told later something like if you cannot afford it you don't deserve a helper.


Good luck to lovetc and your helper

thanks ya that is what i am thinking but in here people r ready to write all this i m also a woman i know how u feel when ur pregnat first 3 month is very diffclut and after 3month i dont think pregnat woman work so hard they need good rest and family support any way my helper wants to go back her home town her husband said asap if we give her ticket then it is good for them and she also want to go so i dont force her to stay for one more month so i let her go

not in this world every one so evil

It seems such a coincidence that a lot of these ladies get pregnant,just before a contract is signed, they know there rights regarding the employers responsibility to pay for ante natal care, birth in a comfortable Hong Kong hospital etc rather than in their own place back home where medical care is probably very poor, and infant mortality rate is high, and remember that due to religious reasons a lot of these ladies will not practice birth control. So are these pregnancies planned or accidental? then the baby has to be sent back home after the birth at a certain stage, to be raised by family back there, if the helper wishes to carry on working, is this fair on the mother or the child?

same as catty, i'm also interested in hearing people's experience in handling a pregnant helper, in terms of work coverage, living arrangement (if she stays), travel arrangement (if she leaves), care for the helper, etc. i've seen this topic quite often discussed but rarely see helpful advice on these practical questions; most of the time it's what's already well known (i.e., helpers have rights) that gets repeated -- it's certainly important to remind employers of that but that doesn't get you very far if people don't know to how to deal with the practical issues.


any advice?

no i think in this topic every one have one answer helper right in hk everything is helper right and us have to do that i dont blame any one but why anyone kepp helper coz they need and for that they pay give food give place to live and all other thing but if something happend like that at least we have right to tell them pls go back ur home and delevery ur baby but no u have to do its mean now we helper and u takecare of ur helper

but what is time going on money is too tight every one worry about there job and finical problem if some one dont have that much money to hire 2 helper at a time then what else u do

cara, the list is helpful. ideally things will work out that way. i guess it's when (people are afraid that) the process is not that trouble-free that people start to stress out. i don't have a pregnant helper, but hyperthetically if i had one i would be worried about the following, some of which i have an answer and others i don't:


1. no room for additional helper to help out while the pregnant helper still stays. guess the answer is to go for a local live-out.


2. who's going to take care of the pregnant helper? who's going to send her to the hospital in case something goes wrong or if she goes into labor. who's going to stay with her in the hospital during and after delivery? most people cannot take much time off work on the ground that they need to look after their helper. anyway to get the helper's husband or other family member to come to HK? how long are they allowed to stay? and where are they going to stay if there is no room in the employer's home? who pays for the flight and accommodation? (if it's all up to the employer to foot the bill, then this is probably better than any other job in the world in this regard. but if the employer does not want to pay and the helper cannot afford it, does that practically mean the employer needs to assume of the care responsibility?)


3. as catty mentioned, if the helper wants to go back to give birth, she probably needs to leave no later than 7 months in order to get on a plane. so practically she's getting a much longer maternity leave than most employees in HK. (but i'm not that bothered by this; i'd need to get coverage anyway so it's just a matter of some more free money to the helper, but other people may have a tighter budget and feel this is difficult).


4. if the helper wants to stay in HK during maternity leave, where is she going to live with the baby? a friend of mine just had a rather tough situation with this, see http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/forums/hong-kong-domestic-help/threads/121878/pregnant-helper-wants-to-give-birth-in-hong-kong/


so, i read somewhere that at the end of the day most of the time employers will just pay the helper out of the contract to make things easier. is that the reality?

"but what is time going on money is too tight every one worry about there job and finical problem if some one dont have that much money to hire 2 helper at a time then what else u do"


Well this is a question you can pose to many employers in HK, not just to employers of DH. We all have to obey the law whether at home or in the workplace.


miao miao - for your question 2 and from experience, many local women get themselves to hospital, by ambulance if an emergency and they go through delivery themselves and stay by themselves. Not true for everyone but surprised me when I saw it - people staying with you for delivery is not normal here! And if their family wanted to come to HK then they would pay themselves (14 days is maximum stay by the way).


For question 3 - 36 weeks is the normal limit in Asia - so 4 weeks before birth.


"so, i read somewhere that at the end of the day most of the time employers will just pay the helper out of the contract to make things easier. is that the reality?"


Tough one. Can work but can also come back and bite you big time.

Thanks miao miao for asking the detailed questions and thanks evildeeds for the reponse. Hope they'll be helpful to those who face the situation.


I guess it all boils down to the fact that live-in foreign domestic helpers, especially those who have not stayed here long, have very limited resource here and also because they live with the employer, so in reality they are potentially somewhat dependent on their employer even regarding some aspects of their personal life such as pregnancy. It's all well if nothing happens, but the employer is often the only one to turn to when something happens to the helper. On top of what is required by law, the employer realistically needs to assume some additional (sometime heavy) responsibility to take care of the helper. (Kind of similar to other issues people frequently raise such as helper borrowing money, helper getting sick, etc.) As said in my previous comments, I think it's important for potential employers to consider whether they can deal with that kind of responsibility or draw a fine line as to what they do or don't do for their helper. For me I'm not sure I am able to bear that responsibility so I'll go for a legal live-out one which (I hope) will involve a simpler relationship -- I pay you salary and you work for me and take care of yourself.

Employers "risk" their employees becoming pregnant. That's life. If you can't deal with this rather small risk don't hire a helper.


cara's excellent list is a great guideline for how one can handle a bad situation like a mature and responsible person.


1) get a pregnancy test to confirm

2) make an appointment for her with the gov't clinic for ante-natal care

3) ask her permission to accompany her to the doctor appointments (of course, i would leave if she felt uncomfortable during any procedures)

4) speak to the doctor and ask for the doctor's recommendations regarding her work schedule.

5) try to re-tool the schedule at home for cleaning to leave the helper more time to take it easy. (maybe instead of vacuuming every day, she could do it every 2-3 days)

6) continue to monitor her health and comfort

7) if i think she is having a hard time, ask her what she would like to do: stay and work or resign. if she choses to resign, then i would pay her out. i would probably also pay her some "extra" to cover some of the costs of ante-natal care etc as if she resigns, i technically only pay her ticket home.

8) i would keep in mind that some people have fantastic pregnancies (a friend was hiking the hills of HK until a few days before she gave birth!!!) and if she has a great pregnancy, then there should be no impediment to her continuing work.

9) as her delivery date gets closer, i would try to find a replacement helper to cover the post-delivery time.

10) i would have my helper and the new helper work together to allow the new helper learn how the current one does things and how we like things done

11) after delivery, i would ask to send my helper back to her home to spend her maternity leave with her family and getting her baby settled.

12) if she decides to return, great.

13) if not, i have another helper trained and working already.



"Being " NICE " to a pregnant helper means " CRUEL " to your own family !


Being " CRUEL " to a pregnant helper means " GOOD " to your own family !


Make your own choice !


By the way, if it happens on me, I would pay the helper extra money ( maybe 3 months salary, or say $10,000 plus air ticket going home of course ) to ask her to resign. If she refuses, I would probably turn into a " DEVIL ", you know what I mean !!!

"


Sounds like you're already a "devil"...



"It is easy for cara to say anything here as no one knows if she would really do whatever she said, she may be generous to hire one more helper to look after the pregnant one and pays the kid's school fee for going to study in ESF schools if her husband is the baby inside the helper's tummy !!"


Uncalled for BKW Wong. Shame on you.

BK Wong is banned

as for another helper to cover for the pregnant one, i guess the only rational choice is a local live-out one unless you want to sign up a new live-in FDH for two years to cover only for a few months probably. the flip side, of course, is that if your pregnant DH does not return after maternity leave then you either have to hire the live-out one for long term (considering she's already trained) at higher cost or start the hiring and training process all over again. am i right?


thanks to evildeeds for the answers:


"many local women get themselves to hospital, by ambulance if an emergency and they go through delivery themselves and stay by themselves. Not true for everyone but surprised me when I saw it - people staying with you for delivery is not normal here! And if their family wanted to come to HK then they would pay themselves (14 days is maximum stay by the way)."


seems surprising to me, too. i visited a friend in the maternity ward in a public hospital and most if not all ladies there had someone attending them. not necessarily the husband (HK companies don't seem to have the concept of paternity leave?) but mostly mother, in-laws, sisters, etc. in any event it's probably hard for an employer not to do something if their helper goes to/is in the hospital with no family member around.


"For question 3 - 36 weeks is the normal limit in Asia - so 4 weeks before birth."


i would probably let her go earlier anyway. don't want something to happen to her on the way (which i may be responsible for in the end). and keeping a 9-month pregnant lady in your home is such a big responsibility!


maybe we should keep revising the guidelines and the editor of this site can create an archive of this discussion for future reference when people come to ask with tears what they should do with a pregnant helper.

Yesterday over dinner i mentioned this discussion to my ex-colleague. She was very surprised and said that she never heard of pregnant helpers even though she has a huge network of friends and relatives here in HK.


She claimed that helpers take advantage of "gwei lows" (don't know how to spell) and it would never happen in a local employer's house. And if it did, she said, a helper not the employer would have a headache. I asked her why, she said that local people would not tolerate a pregnant helper as it would mean too many responsibilities and money spent. She said that she can not even imagine a situation when her helper, if she was to become pregnant, would stay in her house.


I asked her what if she did want to stay? My ex-colleague answered that such helper would be fired based on serious misconduct. "What misconduct?" i asked her. "Anyone that will come into my mind at that time. It is easy when you have small kids at home. You may claim that she mistreated kids or put their lives in danger. As the last resort, you may claim she stole from you. Put a valuable into her suitcase, call the police, and that is it".


That is one local employer's perspective. I am not local and was naturally shocked to hear that. Then, it occurred to me that perhaps "gwei lows" are treated differently by prospective helpers? May be helpers think that they would get away with anything in a non-local family? I am just wondering in which families all these pregnancy stories take place. It is my curiosity only.

i agree with some of the above comments that people also need to show some understanding to the employers. it's way too easy to pass moral judgment on a forum but much harder to offer practical suggestion. so instead of saying "it doesn't matter how many childern you have", i would say something like "we understand it's a touch situation but unforetunately you'll have to deal with it and here is what i think you may consider doing . . ."


your list cara is helpful, though. but i'm also afraid that things are often not as worry-free as you listed. my neighbour just had a tough situation with her pregnant helper. the helper had an uneasy pregnancy; not only was she barely able to do her work (which the employer understood) but also she became very moody (which is also common) and even beat up the employer's child once (which no parent will tolerate). when the employer wanted to terminate her due to misconduct, the helper threatened to sue them for unlawful dismissal. i think as a practical matter it is very hard to dismiss a pregnant employee even if you have good reasons because it's all your words again hers. anyway all employers may have to deal with pregnant employees but not all employers have to subject their childern to a person potentially abusive and no longer fit for the work.


as for the second helper, how easy is it to find a good helper willing to accept a job when you tell her upfront "you'll need to go if my first helper comes back but i never know"? or, if you don't tell her upfront (kind of cheating i think because you know the contingency), is it fair to her to be fired later when the pregnant one comes back?


i agree that it's a risk all employers have to take if you employee child-bearing age women. i just hope people can also show some sympathy and help to the ones that are actually dealing with it, maybe in a much harder situation than you would think.


also support the idea of an archive for all suggestion to be put together for the benefit of those in need.

Re. taking care of a pregnant helper -


I think it is great that so many employers understand that they have a responsibility to take care of their pregnant helper, however, in my opinion those helpers also have a responsibility to take care of themselves. Regarding who would accompany the helper during the birth etc, I think she would have to do it alone and accept that as a disadvantage of giving birth in a HK on a DH contract. After all she has the right to invite her mum / sister / husband to HK on a tourist visa if she can afford it, and she has the right to quit her job if she wants to go back home. If she wants to stay on (which is fine) she may have to accept that she will be alone for the birth.


Re. going to hospital if any emergency comes up, she would have to call a friend/neighbour in the same building, or if that's not possible, call an ambulance and go to hospital alone, as many local ladies do.


Re. finding another helper to cover the maternity leave

I think this is the greatest problem with a pregnant helper. Many people cannot afford 2 helpers at the same time. Non-Cantonese speakers may find it really hard to hire a legal part-time cleaner because almost all of them are non-English speaking. And of course any temp cleaner or nanny will be very expensive - a Merry Maids cleaner is about HKD 80 per hour and a nanny costs about HKD 20,000 per month.



So all in all, I agree that the employer would be in need of lots of sympathy & practical support & advice in such a situation in order to support all of the helper's rights.


For me, I wouldn't mind too much if my DH was pregnant if I liked her, and she was married, and she was honest with me about it, and she tried her best to handle the situation well. But I do feel sorry for those who have to go to so much trouble for a helper they don't even like / had thought of replacing anyway.

Nat, as to your question whether the DHs get pregnant in local families too, i remember seeing some organizaton of local DH employers lobbying to amend the maternity benefits for DHs, so i guess it must have happened to some of them?


some DHs may be naturally thinking western families are easier to work with. but i wouldn't say getting pregnant while being employed is something that you need to "get away with". it's a legal right and entitlement. on the other hand, i also think employees including DHs should also be responsible for their own decision and choice without causing undue hardship to the employers besides what they are legally required to do. So it's all fine for helpers to get pregnant, but you need to consider whether you can take care of yourself, both financially and logistically, while working alone in another country, or are you expecting your employer to pick up any slack? If you want to give birth in HK, can you deal with it yourself or find help on your own? If you want to go back to your country and need to leave earlier and have longer maternity leave than you are legally entitled to, are you willing to take part of that as unpaid? If you are either physically or psychologically unfit for the normal work, are you willing to resign or take an unpaid leave (aside from any medical leave you are entitled to)? etc. etc. These are questions that we all need to consider as a working employee if we get pregnant, because our boss will not do much more than they are legally required to do just because we are working abroad away from home.


if i have a pregnant helper who's reasonable and responsible, i think it won't be too hard to get through with it. So i guess good intent on both parties are crucial.