Abuse of Indonesian Woman on my street



ORIGINAL POST
Posted by dk2009 16 yrs ago
Hello,


I would like some advice on how to report the abuse of an Indonesian woman on my street.


This woman works in a stationary and office supplies shop on the corner of my street in Sai Ying Pun. We have seen her in there a few times when we were shopping, and occasionally say hi to her in the back alley, which leads to the entrance to our apartment. The shop has a store room which is also in the back alley.


A few weeks ago, this woman saw my wife in the alley and asked her if it would be possible that we could purchase a sweater from a shop in Causeway Bay for her. My wife asked her why and she proceeded to tell the story that she had accidentally put the sweater of the male employer in the washer, and when she pulled out the laundry, she noticed that the sweater had shrunk. She notified her male employer who excused the problem, but the female employer (his wife) got very angry and told the Indonesian woman that her salary would be cut by $1800 even though her husband had excused the problem and the original value of the sweater was only $900.


She also indicated to my wife that she was on a domestic helper visa, but was being forced to work in the shop during normal business hours, which seem to be 9AM - 7PM.


In addition to the hours she is required to work at the shop, she is also required to do the normal chores at home that she was hired to perform. She told my wife that she is required to wake up at 6AM and after she gets home from working in the shop she must work until after midnight every night and most nights until 2 or 3AM.


She said that she is not allowed to take holidays on Sunday or public holidays. So basically she works 7 days a week from 6AM until late in the night.


I do not know much about Hong Kong labor laws, but I do know that this is strictly illegal.


When she told my wife about it, my wife didn't mention it to me for a few days and when she did, we were both struggling to decide what to do about it. She is obviously being taken advantage of and abused, but we didn't want to make the problems worse for her by confronting the employers ourselves and letting them know that this was not ethical or legal.


Today, my wife saw her in the alley way and said hello, and the woman told her that her employer hasn't paid her salary for 3 months.


This time my wife called me at work and we've decided that we cannot accept knowing that this illegal and cruel activity is being imposed on another human being right in front of our eyes.


We would like any advice on the proper channels we need to have the employer prosecuted. I understand that there may be certain proof that is required otherwise, many of the things that the Indonesian woman claims are merely hearsay. Although, I have witnessed her working in the shop and carrying supplies and materials from the store room to the shop multiple times and both myself and my wife are willing to testify in court.


Please let us know what we can do to help this person and stop the abuse.

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COMMENTS
axptguy38 16 yrs ago
Going to the police is the obvious route. However do note that she may lose her job. Does the Indonesian woman want to prosecute? Make certain she is sure of this, and understands the consequences, before taking action.


An ugly situation to be sure.

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Ed 16 yrs ago
Very very difficult situation...


If you move forward with helping her prosecute the employer (it is illegal to have a helper work outside the home) she will almost certainly lose her job - be sure to get in touch with me directly - we will put the women onto our HK home page with some info on the circumstances and an appeal to help her find a new employer. We did this once before in similar circumstances and the helper was hired almost immediately.

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FKKC 16 yrs ago
Good for you Ed.......lots of compassion needed. Hope our HK Government gives more allowances to these cases if proved to be justified.

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bing2 16 yrs ago
talk to her and ask if she wants you to help her. sometime we think we are helping but we may put them into more trouble. if she says no, at least she will feel better knowing there are people who care about her and there is a way out. she may change her mind later. obviously her employer is abusing her physically, mentally and financially, and we all know we should help her but it's better to know that your help will not put her into deeper troubles, like being deported and not being able to feed her family back home. what ed said would be a great help too.

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RA 16 yrs ago
Actually going to the police will not be of much help...since it may backfire on her. I have seen numerous cases in which the helpers are falsely accused of theft. I use to volunteer for this association called 'Help for domestic Helpers' I don't have their number , but they are located at St. John's Cathedral. Ask her to go there. Depending on her situation, they will also provide free legal service. There she will get someone to listen to her and make notes. She will then have to sign on her statement. You could ask CAB for the association's number. They are open on Sundays too.

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Snow Rose 16 yrs ago
I also agree that you should ask the helper if she wants to do anything about her situation, explain any risks as well as benefits. What if another employer does not step forward to hire her, for example? She could find herself jobless.


Also, bear in mind that all the facts need to be verified. Surely she can't work from 6am - 2am every day 7 days a week? - Most people would not be physically capable of that. Poor English may lead to some errors in description of her work. Also many people exaggerate when they are unhappy - I know my MIL does when she tells me about how she lived through the Cultural Revolution! - and I don't have a problem with people getting their feelings off their chest. Probably this helper had no idea that what she said would be taken so seriously so I would definitely bear this in mind if you do end up reporting this case to the police.



Another point is that we only have one side of the story so far. If we heard the employers' side it might change things a lot. For example, the helper has said she hasn't been paid for 3 months - are the employers having financial problems? If yes, of course it doesn't mean it's OK for them to not pay their helper, but it casts a very different light on the situation. Perhaps they have promised to pay her very soon and she didn't quite understand - that's not allowed but it's different from not having any intention to pay.


In conclusion then, ask her first before taking any action. She might not want to take the risk or might not have quite such a strong case. If you call the police and then find out she doesn't have a good case she will probably lose the job she has now.

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owain1972 16 yrs ago
Good for you ed, there are a lot of good people out there who need help like that, thanks!!

dk , good luck, let us know how it goes

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daniel12345 16 yrs ago
Definitely help her if it is the truth, But I would be careful to verify the facts as you recieved this story when she was asking you for money and may have concocted it in order to get some. Some of the details seem a little fantastic. Also if the police do help her it should not be difficult for her to find another position with fair employers, so I would not hesitate to do so.

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garnet77 16 yrs ago
HI dk


I really admire you for having a sympathy and willing to help her all you have to do is take a snapshot while she is working Indicate the time and date she worked this is one of the strongest evidence then you can send those photos to the immigration directly. or you can phone the immigration. If i were in your situation i would do the same thing, weather the indonesian woman might lose her job.im sure she can find another good employer in the future..Its time to stop those bad employer from abusing their maid..Good luck my friend..


God bless you

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belmont 16 yrs ago
Here are the contact details for "Help for Domestic Helpers" at St Johns Cathedral:


Holly Carlos Allan (Manager)

2523 4020

St. John's Cathedral

4-8 Garden Road

Central

Hong Kong


Office Hours:

Monday to Friday - 9am to 5pm

Sunday - 10:30am to 2pm


Good luck!

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mayajoe 16 yrs ago
hong kong has very lilltle compassion when it comes to slavery. So be sure to back the poor woman up if she needs help and if possible, make it known to her employers that you are aware of the situation between them. This will make her employers aware that she is getting outside help and they will surley back off hopefully.


good luck!!


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mayita 16 yrs ago
Actually i read in the standard of last week that a domestic worker which had initially been prosecuted was actually freed by the judge, who in turn blamed the police for not defending the maid against abusive employers... here is the link to the article :

Exploited maid freed as court slams police

Patsy Moy

Tuesday, February 10, 2009


http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=78030&sid=22626629&con_type=1&d_str=20090210&sear_year=2009

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tnb1975 16 yrs ago
Do not get Immigration, Police involved. They are bias towards employers and look down on maids as second class citizen. The maid needs to have a clear understanding of consequence, similar to those of whistler blower i.e. will not be rehired in the industry or geographic.


I feel for the maid, the indonesian are always getting the short end of the stick. I hear they get paid only 1200-1800 compared to the minimum wage of 3500..


The article of the above incident highlights the fact that the maids in HK have a tough time, now if the judge was local, then the verdict would have been different....the judge was westerner and we understand how these are mistreated in HK...

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FKKC 16 yrs ago
dcnoble - that's very kind and generous of you. Wish there were more like you!


tnb1975 - do you have something against the local people - you seemed to have a chip on your shoulder regarding locals in most of your opinions.



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Ms Goodwill 16 yrs ago
Hi dk2009,


Do you mind to tell her to contact me if she really need help? Lots of Indonesian helper being abused in this way and I know some of them wins the battle in the court. Some of the members in the church I attend had the same problems so please asked her to contact me. I might tell her what to do in Indonesian language as I'm Indonesian too. Mostly they will more comfort if they know someone from the same country to make her come foward and defending for her right. If needed I could come to your area and meet her in person, that's if possible..


Leave me a message in inbox about her contact or your contact.. Thanks for helping her... God bless you.

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dk2009 16 yrs ago
I want to thank each of you for the constructive feedback. I want to give further information on this situation.


At first, we did not take any action because we are familiar with the problems that might be caused to the woman. First off, she would lose her job, and there is a good chance that she would be blacklisted by the employment agency for "causing trouble" and eventually sent back to Indonesia after an unsuccessful job search.


We do know that this is her second contract and she has 4 months to finish this one. The fact that she is reaching out with only 4 months to go really says something about the situation she is in. She is desperate.


As some of you have pointed out, Immigration and/or the police might even turn against her and charge her for a crime. The proof being the case that was published in the Standard. A simple google search shows that this is common place.


After this latest time that she spoke with my wife, we realized that this is happened in broad day light right in front of our eyes and by standing around and letting it happen, we are being complacent and letting it happen. Nobody is standing up for these human beings.


I have contacted Amnesty International Hong Kong on this case, and they have verified that this is an abuse case and have offered some good advice and told us to contact both the labor department and immigration.


They have also directed us to contact the Asian Migrant Centre who specializes in defending the rights of migrant workers including foreign domestic helpers - http://asian-migrants.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1


I also took the first step in getting proof that this is happening by taking a camera phone into the shop this evening and getting footage of her working behind the counter.


I am posting this information because I want to both expose what is happening here, inspire others to help out victims of abuse that they see, and provide information on the truth about what is illegal, what the HK govt. processes are, and how to resolve it with links to information for anyone that this happens to or is witness to in the future.


There have been some skeptics on this thread.

When she asked my wife to buy the sweater, she was willing to give my wife the money. She did not ask us for anything. She said she had enough money for the sweater because she is not allowed to go out on her holidays and spend any of it. So she has saved her salary as long as her contract has been going. In her eyes, spending $900 on getting a new sweater (approximately 28% of her monthly salary if you calculate her salary at $3200) is better than getting her salary cut by $1800 (56%).


My real concern for her is that she is not able to get outside to report this to anyone including the labor department. She is a victim of slavery, plain and simple.


@Ed & @Ms Goodwill, I will contact you directly.


There are some good factoids listed by people here, but is there anywhere that I can get solid, documented facts that are published? Online links would be ideal.


@dcnoble - can you provide any details on the liability limit that domestic helpers are limited to? Is there a link to Hong Kong labor laws online somewhere?


Other than St. John's Cathedral, are there any known legal counselors who specialize in this type of case?

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Ms Goodwill 16 yrs ago
There's alot in Hong Kong and that's why you need to tell her to come foward. Christian Action one of the best organization in Hong Kong and I always tell FDH which happened become the victim to go there. Please be aware that she could change her mind in between so this why we need to make sure about the full story from her and make sure she will not change her mind in future..


Labour department wont help much, but the organization such Christian Action will do and they will assist her every step of the way. They have staff for Indonesian FDH so the communication will be no problem at all.


Take care..





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the goddess kali 16 yrs ago
well maybe you can ask her if she wants to be helped and how she wants to be helped. being shipped back home within a couple of weeks might not be a good option for her. There is BEthune house on jordan road and i think also Asian Migrant Centre (which also used to be on jordan road, but not so sure where they are now) that should be able to help.

http://www.kuc.hk/home.htm you can call this church for contact details of both and i think they wll also tell you what legally sound options are availabel for her.

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tnb1975 16 yrs ago
No chip on my shoulder, just talking from experience. I'm born and bred in HK but from a ethnic minority background and I've been through this type of situation many times in my life and continue to deal with it on a regular basis in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is free economy (open racism especially to minority group for Asian background).


I'm not generalising but most of them fall into the category, right from the time I enter HK starting with the immigration authorities, custom etc and all the way till i get home....That's life....


Posted by FKKC (15 hrs ago)


[ Message | Report Abuse ]


dcnoble - that's very kind and generous of you. Wish there were more like you!


tnb1975 - do you have something against the local people - you seemed to have a chip on your shoulder regarding locals in most of your opinions.


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tnb1975 16 yrs ago
FYI, I don't have anything against them, many of the them are close friend of mine......

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FKKC 16 yrs ago



tnb1975

So you are saying that a local judge is unfair and only when you have a Western judge in the court that you'll get a fair trial? If that is not generalising, then what is?

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Zorglub 16 yrs ago
dk 2009,

Good on you for doing this. Clever to have filmed the girl, too!

Regarding what others have said about the girl being fired if she took legal action, I remembered reading something about it, and I found this in the "Practical Guide for Employing FDH" (click here for a pdf format of this document http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/FDHguide.pdf)

"Under what circumstances does a dismissal contravene the law?

[...]

Dismissal by reason of an employee giving evidence or information in any proceedings or inquiry in connection with the enforcement of labour legislation, industrial accidents or breach of work safety regulations;

[...]"


I'm not a native Legal-Speaker, but to me it means that an FDH cannot be fired while giving evidence against her employers or those of a friend.


Hence, once she starts legal proceedings, she cannot be fired, except for gross misconduct, of course. Obviously, once the proceedings are over, she will most certainly loose her job, but with Ed's help, she could find another one and be better off.

The only thing is : she must start legal proceedings herself and be able to prove what she claims. You've got evidence of her working illegally in the shop, that doesn't mean she was forced to do so. Her employers could also have forced her to sign fake recceipts for the salary she hasn't been paid the last 3 months. These proceedings can be complicated and scary for someone like her, better encourage her to speak to the good people above who have experience in these matters.

Good luck to her and you!

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hongker 16 yrs ago
All the talk about getting the state to help with a private dispute is misguided. The fact is that the Labour Department suck hard. Despite their avowed mandate, they will do little to help this poor Indonesian woman. Any just resolution of this situation would most likely arise from self-help visited upon this loathsome employer.

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ovi 16 yrs ago
Hi there,


Asked the Indonesian women to call Domestic Helpers and Migrant Workers Programme on 2739-6193. They have 3 Indonesian speakers working there. They can give advise in relation to Immigration matter, Employmet matter and they also has shelter, just in case the Indonesian lady decided to leave her job.


Please pass this message. Your help will make a different..!!

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carmanchix 16 yrs ago
We need to hear both side of story.


tnb1975,your comment about local judge is very objectionable.

Please have some RESPECT for our honorable judges,our police department and our immigration department.Hong Kong is the best and safest city in the world.




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FKKC 16 yrs ago
Well spoken, carmanchix.


Good to be helpful but at the same time be fair.

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Christian Bullen 16 yrs ago
Get a bit of evidence (ie the helper asking the employer for the back wages and asking not to have to work in the shop) her phone can probably record. Check the recording for quality if its reasonable get her out of there right away. Go immediately to the Labour Department and you will get a meeting appointment. This can then be used to extent her visa. Claim everything and anything not covered ( outside the jurisdiction of the Labour Tribunal) get transferred to Small Claims or if over 50K get her legal aid. She will thank you later. Any questions email me. Or Fax: 2895 3004

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