Posted by
michtan
16 yrs ago
Hi,
I have a helper who has been working with us since last June. We have been treating her like family and my relationship with her is like friends. We can talk almost anything under the roof when the kids are taking their afternoon nap. But recently, there is a few incident was makes me question myself if i have given her too much freedom? For instance this morning!
As usual, its a sunday morning! We would normally bring the kids out for mac breakfast after she finish her all the housework so that my husband can have a good sleep after a week's hard work! Before we go, she would normally bath my son first before she change. This morning i knock on the door and asked if she is ready? She came out of her room dressed up and said sorry mom, if you don't mind, i got something personal to do i need to go out for a while! I will be back very fast! I was okay at first till i question her further 'what happen?' She answered saying that her sister couldn't retrieve her stuff from the courier company that she stored to send to her son in philippines which happen YESTERDAY! But she claimed her sister did not informed her till this morning so she had to go last min! She had to go otherwise the courier company will then throw her stuff away!!! Next thing, she left the house with my son!!!
What will you do?
Please support our advertisers:
in the first place, why did you allow her to go out with your son? And today is sunday as well, i assume her day off is another day? And what do you mean by "freedom" - that the two of you can talk, I think "talking like friends" as you have mentioned is just another good human behaviour, right? When she gets back , just talk to her and tell her that next time if she needs to do something personal , you are entitled to an amount of respect as an employer during her working hours.
Please support our advertisers:
the "freedom" i mean is allowing my helper to schedule how the things can be done at home i.e. housework, marketing, bringing the kids down to play etc. could i be giving her too much "freedom" that she can make decision on her own and thus no respect for me!
Please support our advertisers:
I believe Sunday is a day off for helpers, but I assume she has a different day off?
Why on earth would you allow her to take your son, furthermore why did you not go to her as she was leaving and tell her she needs to leave him with you at home? Very strange.
If you choose to have a "friendship" rather than a "working relationship", then this would seem quite obvious that it would happen eventually. That aside, perhaps you should sit her down and make clear that you need more notice if she requires personal time and not to assume she has the right to take your son out her her.
Just like any workplace, guidelines needs to be clear. You can't change from "friend" to "employer" just when it suits you. That's when difficulties occur. If you start picking choosing, your helper is going to get mixed signals and then things can start getting messy.
Please support our advertisers:
The line can become very fine when you start treating your employee like a friend because they would expect that a 'friend' would let them out to help their sister. At the end of the day, DH's, like any employee including you and I, know their rights and it's not surprising that they abuse them now and then. If too much 'freedom' is your concern, you'd better start adopting the 'loose reigns, tight reigns' approach in gradual doses.
Please support our advertisers:
I agree cara, it is possible to be a friendly employer. I have a fantastic working relationship with our helper. We have great laughs, but it doesn't get personal and she doesn't sit with us at mealtimes, tv watching, etc. I may have come off quite harsh in my previous posting.
it is a very fine line, and at the end of the day it comes down to what you feel comfortable with, but it's always easier to start off strict and relax as time goes on than to start of relaxed.
But I would definitely have a chat with her as having an open communication is the best thing. If you don't say anything and it festers, then every little thing will irk you and it will get more and more difficult until it comes to a head. Nip it in the bud and move on.
I doesn't sound like she is disrespecting you, it just sounds like she is just using her "freedom" that you have allowed her to have.
Maybe start up a roster of chores and tell her that you would like to start following a roster as it makes it easier to plan you day/evenings. Word it in a way that is not sounding like you are cracking down.
Please support our advertisers:
I think that Mich is taking advantage of her employee. It seems that Sunday is the helper's dayoff (by saying that she has to go. If it's not her day off, how can she possibly say that to her friend employer?) but she helps out Mich and her family even during Sundays before she goes. This however became normal to Mich, and now she can't even see that she's the one taking advantage of the helper! Talk about describing an elephant as something hard and pointed when she's just describing the tusk...
Of course I might be wrong. It's just how I understand what Mich has posted.
Please support our advertisers:
Am i reading too much? I am not sure! I wonder why she didn't settle the courier thing during her off day on saturday? Why she need to ask her sister to do it her behalf? She should tell me once she recieved the call from her sister this morning and not after she had changed her clothes and ready to go! Somehow she already knows that i will let her go no matter what? Is she starting to take advantage of me being nice to her??? My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet i am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself!
Please support our advertisers:
I have no idea what you are saying. You need to be much cleare on what you mean. Does you helper have a day off or not?
Besides that, they are YOUR kids, not your helpers, why on earth begrudge your helper having to look after them yourself? Welcome to the world of motherhood. I consider myself very lucky to have a helper but I know it's limited and when I get back to my home country this year, it's me and that's it. No helper, husband at work long hours.
I cannot believe you would whinge about looking after your children. Why on earth did you have them?
Please support our advertisers:
Thanks for clarifying that her day off is Saturday. Then she definitely is taking liberties on doing things her way. It's time to put your foot down.
It's basic courtesy to ask permission in advance (even if you're friends, how much more with an employer?), she didn't.
Please support our advertisers:
Hi neenib,
My helper gets her off days on saturday. I do not begrudge my helper having to look after the kids myself. If i am not capable of being a mother i might as well don't have any kids! I just need to be more organize especially when i have 2 kids and a toddler. If my helper could inform me earlier (even 30mins in advance) i could have just make a quick trip to the supermarket to get something fixed at home instead eating out! I wouldn't want my kids to be running around and get themselves lost in the mall or leaving them alone waiting at the dinning area fearing of any accidents might happen!
Please support our advertisers:
I had given my helper the freedom to schedule the household chores since she doesn't have to take care of the kids. I would give her the money and the shopping list and she will go marketing anytime before i prepare for dinner and sometimes sending the clothes to the laundry (Which she will make 2 different trips occassionally). Each time she step out of the house she will shout from the door saying 'mom, i'm going out'! I wonder if this had become a bad habit! Do you guys let your helper work this way?
Please support our advertisers:
If you trust your helper and know that she didn't know she had to go out til an hour before, I think she forgot to tell you. Just let her know how inconvenient it was for you. If you don't want her to tell you when she's going out, do you want her to ask you? if so, you need to explain it.
Please support our advertisers:
kashn
16 yrs ago
I'm sorry but it sounds like you're trying to find something to whinge about. Emergenices happen and sometimes you do have to leave work all of a sudden to organize something. I have done and I am sure others have too. Maybe you don't understand as you've never worked before? I don't know but this is not a big deal....and god forbid you look after your kids for 1 day all by yourself! You sound a little spoilt, I hate to say!
Please support our advertisers:
Hi, like you, I'm like friends with my helper. I trust her my kids when I work and she does everything independently. I sometimes work only half days, and she's asked twice since she's been with us if she can go to Central (while on a work day) to just quickly send money to her baby in Philippines.
I don't mind at all as I know it doesn't ALWAYS happens and that it's some sort of an emergency. My boss is considerate enough to give me an instant day off when my kids need me i.e. they're sick or no one to pick them up from school etc.
If it doesn't happen a lot, I don't think she's taking advantage of you. On the other hand, my helper would ask first before she goes to wherever. I think it'll be best for you to talk to her that the incident made you feel quite uncomfortable so that she knows that she has to ASK for your GO signal next time. It's courtesy.
Wish you and your helper all the best. : )
Please support our advertisers:
EDIT: While in many ways I agree with chuck3, I would say that this thread is not the correct place for the comments he/she made, or I did (see below).
The abuse of helpers is rampant in HK. And I don't mean beatings and such. I mean disrespect and inconsiderate behavior. A DH is an employee. She should be treated with dignity. Expect hard work, certainly, but treat her like a human being.
Please support our advertisers:
Well said Chuck3 i agree people expect far too much for far too little and hide behind the fact that they are working within the law and that these helpers would never earn as much back home. I've said it over and over just because you can ask 10 hours plus a day from your helper doesn't make it right .I do not believe anyone needs that much help with kids and the house unless they do not lift a finger to help out themselves or have very unusual circumstances.
Please support our advertisers:
Hey guys,
thanks for all the comments and advises. I thot it is a nice gesture to let my helper to have her day off on a staurday instead of demanding her to off on a sunday when my husband is home! and yes, the kids are my job otherwise why have kids?? my helper only handle the household chores and mind the kids when i am cooking. 2nd, i didn't allow her to bring my son out when she have to run her errand! please understand the shock i had when i found my son missing??? i had to call her and chase my way out the mtr station to pick my son up!
Please support our advertisers:
Contrary to the endorsements given by axpatguy38 and optimistic, I find Chuck3's rant offensive, arrogant and judgmental.
All too often a poster from a different cultural background (usually Asian) posts a question here and gets hammered for daring to give a FDH a job which differs from those of expats from the US, UK, Australia etc.
There is nothing in the OP that indicates that the poster treats her helper with anything less than the dignity and respect than might be afforded in the households of Chuck3, axptguy38 ot optimistic. So why do each of you think she needs to be told:
Be thankful for the luxury you have here and treat your DHs with the dignity and respect they deserve.
The abuse of helpers is rampant in HK. And I don't mean beatings and such. I mean disrespect and inconsiderate behavior. A DH is an employee. She should be treated with dignity
people expect far too much for far too little and hide behind the fact that they are working within the law and that these helpers would never earn as much back home.
How patronising! Are you using this poster as a whipping boy for all those anonymous households out there mistreating their helpers? Why?
Would a person who wasn't concerned about "dignity and respect" bother to write in for "advice"? Does a woman who can't even tell the helper not to take her son out seem like someone who is on a huge power trip?!
Also, why the diatribe about the OP giving Saturdays off, Chuck3? It appears that the poster is writing in her second or third language so maybe what she wanted to say was something like this:
"My helper is a 7th Day Adventist and wanted to have Saturdays off instead of Sunday. Although I really wanted her to work on that day as my husband works all day, i could see it was important to her so I agreed to her request even though it doesn't suit me at all".
Maybe her use of "freedom" and "yet I am nice enough", which so enraged you are simply poor expressions for saying "i've really tried to accomodate her requests but am now concerned that she feels that she can do as she pleases".
My point is we don't know her circumstances and she hasn't explained it particularly well so why assume that because her household runs differently to your own that her values are wrong (and, by inference, yours are right)?
A helper who is working 10 hours a day is not necessarily happier than one working 14 hours a day (and we have no idea how many hours a day this helper works).
Fundamentally, we all run our households according to our family, cultural and social values. I might choose to manage the childcare in my household but that doesn't give me a right to tell my neighbour that she is wrong for giving that job to her helper. I might choose to have my helper work less hours so that my family has more privacy but my neighbour might prefer a tidier house.
In both these cases, I'm running my household the way I want and the fact my helper might work less doesn't make me a better employer and it doesn't give me the right to tell anyone else that they are not respecting their helper because they don't do as i do.
There are also a number of specific points in Chuck3's post I wanted to address:
1. "I’m from the US. My parents both worked full time, and managed to raise my sister and I with out a DH. Mainly because to hire a person to do all that a DH does costs a fortune in the US, and most middle class families cant afford it, or put the money to more important things. No one I know back home has anything even remotely close to a DH."
So? What is your point?
2. You employ someone who is a full - time, cook / maid / nanny, for a lousy HK$ 4,000 a month. Granted you provide the housing and some food, and pay for the occasional Dr.’s appointment, that is still nothing, and you know it.
What do you mean "that is still nothing"? The many FDH and the families dependent on these workers would not agree that this is nothing.
3. You can call me a jerk, ignorant, naïve, but you know I’m right and Im not the only one who feels this way.
I would never call you these names - there are ways of disagreeing in a forum such as this. I would also not agree that "I know you're right" because I think it is wrong to put your own cultural values and preconceptions upon someone in this situation in such a forceful, ugly way when it is clear none of us know the full story.
4. It needed to be said
I totally disagree.
Please support our advertisers:
smallfry raises good points. I stand by my comment about helper abuse, but will agree that it has no place in this thread. I will edit my comment to clarify this.
Please support our advertisers:
smallfry people can only comment on what a poster says and cannot second guess them so if someone says something but means something else well that kinda makes replying impossible.
I believe it was fairly obvious that we all where talking about employers in general rather than michtan although the way they worded there post did make it sound like they thought there helper lucky to get a day off and how terrible it was that the poster had to care for her kids on her own and i quote.
" My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet i am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself! "
I really don't see what else they can mean.....
Please support our advertisers:
Please support our advertisers:
cd
16 yrs ago
I don't understand the statement, 'I thought it would be nice gesture to have saturday off, instead of demanding sunday" having saturdays off mean she cannot meet up with her friends, or socialise very much as 99% of helpers have sundays off, so to me it doesn't seem like a very nice gesture.
Agree with optimistic, Michtan did not do herself any favours in the wording of her posts, its quite understandable why people are quick to make judgements.
Please support our advertisers:
FKKC
16 yrs ago
optimistic quoted from O.P.
"My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet i am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself!"
If I am not mistaken, the O.P. meant she has to take care of her 3 kids all by herself without husband around and whereas if it's a sunday, both parents are together to care for the children.
Please support our advertisers:
FKKC yes that's perhaps what she meant but for goodness sake are you telling me this person can't or shouldn't be expected to manage her own kids for the day!!!!
This is exactly what people are talking about that if you have kids you should expect to take care of them as a mum like millions of others do throughout the world and if you cant or don't want to even for a day then perhaps you shouldn't of had any in the first place.
Please support our advertisers:
thanks smallfry. you are probably the only one that seems to understand what i am trying to say! i'm sorry if my english is not up to standard and it is my 3rd language! sad to say, instead of getting an advice i got harsh comments from what i wrote! my helper wanted her off day on a saturday instead of a sunday and i give it to her. i thot that is nice! of cos i would prefer her to have her off day on sunday so that me and my husaband can take care of the kids together. my helper has no restriction from me. she goes out of the house anytime she want, she reach home after 12pm on saturday, she step out of the house after lunch to do marketing and only came back in time when i need to prepare for dinner. till now i never question her. i'm just asking for advice if she is taking advantages of me and if i should do anything about it? or maybe i'm reading too much? how would you react when your helper got nicely dressed up and say she needed to go urgently at the main door? the door was open and she was ready to go. my son was at the door asking 'auntie, where are you going?' I stop her asking what happen? she answered while my daughter is still crying the room. i turn around to pick up my daughter and she was gone with my son!!! i call her and got to pick up my son at the mtr station. what would you do?
Please support our advertisers:
how would you judge me as a mother taking care of my children 365 days? children are my joy and not trouble. with a expat income we could simply have 2 helpers and i can do anything i want. why borther to post? my husband is a japanese and in his eyes i'm suppose to be as capable as japanese woman who can handle everything at home. i am very thankful to have a helper and thats why i am giving her the 'freedom' and respect. i only seeking advice as a first time employer.
Please support our advertisers:
cd
16 yrs ago
Apologies if saturday is her day of choice. You didn't make it very clear in your original post.
As to advice, always treat your helper kindly and with respect, but always remember that you are the employer and she is the employee, and keep the relationship professional. Make sure she knows her boundaries, and if you think she is now crossing them, then rewrite them down, have a talk and make them clear to her.
Please support our advertisers:
Michtan
I hope you don't mind if I use your thread to respond to the people who replied to my previous post.
I realise that I haven't commented on your problem myself. This is mainly because I find the issue of why people think they have a right to lecture you more interesting.
however, for what it worth, I think you should sit down and talk to your helper about the things that concern you and listen to her response.
She may well have a different picture of your relationship (she may, for example, be frustrated at the lack of direction she has been getting from you - it is hard for her to do a job to your satisfaction if you don't give her guidelines and instruction).
Before your talk, work out ideas for improving the situation (eg every few weeks, ask her to swap her day off for another so you can have help on Saturday (maybe even have a dinner date with your husband!)).
Hopefully, your friendly relationship will be a strong platform for your discussion. Remember that her point of view may differ from your own (but is equally valid) and you also have to accept responsibility for the way the relationship has evolved. She won't change unless you do so evaluate where you went wrong and how you can fix that before trying to "fix her'.
When working out what issues to discuss, I'd avoid listing all the things which are wrong with the current situation - it will only dishearten both of you. Instead, pick one or two important ones (eg she should always ask before taking your children out). Also mention the (hopefully, many) things which work for both of you (eg thank her for using her initiative in working out the cleaning schedule) to emphasise the positive as well as the negative.
I agree with previous comments that you need to accomodate your employees' (genuine) emergencies - in any field of work, no matter how inconvenient. It appears that you have some doubt about the truth of this emergency - if so, speak to her about it.
Please support our advertisers:
axpatguy38,
thank you for your response to my comments. It is nice to feel that these posts have a point (other than sheer entertainment value for bored expats - which is also important!)
chuck3,
there is a vast difference between responding negatively to what someone says and attacking the person for saying it (saying, "I find what you say offensive" is very different from saying "you are a bad person").
I understand that your motives (defense of an underprivileged and often discriminated group of people) are good while continuing to object to the way you put your view forward. Michtan is not accountable for all the bad employers out there and does not deserve your vitriol.
I also wonder what good it does - is it persuasive? Does the person seeking advice who is told that her conduct is "disgusting" go away and mend her evil ways or does she simply stop using these advice forums?
I think that, like the Bush adminstration's "bomb the villages" approach in the "war on terror" your approach is counter-productive. In both cases, aid and education are more likely to succeed.
Supporting an employer to become a better employer is a more effective way of supporting the employee than berating her for not respecting her helper - possibly more so than hairdressing courses and positive threads about helpers (though these supports also have their place - good luck with that).
Please support our advertisers:
optimistic, that's a mighty impressive leap of logic to go from "I'd prefer my helper to work on Saturdays so I had help with the kids" to "perhaps you shouldn't of had any in the first place." Not to mention utterly useless advice, given it is now too late not to have had them in the first place!
Grandstanding about how people in HK don't know how to treat helpers (your first post) or shouldn't have had kids if they don't want to spend time with them is exactly the sort of pointless, value-laden judgment I objected to in my previous post.
The reality is that most people in HK do have successful relationships with their helpers even though those helpers might work more than 10 hours a day or spend more time with the children they care for than the parents do. So what? You do what you choose in your house and let them manage their households as they wish.
Please support our advertisers:
smallfry i clearly was responding to
" My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet i am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself! "
which is why i put the quote in my posting so i am unsure why your quoting something else entirely to to back up your argument.
From what she said i stand by my response (which would of been different if she had posted differently)
The reality also is that helpers are expected to work far too long for there minimum wage and just because a helper doesn't complain for fear of losing there job doesn't mean they are happy and think your a good employer. All it means is they are desperate for work so will put up with almost anything.
How many employers would require so many hours from there helper if they had to pay them by the hour? not many i suspect
Yes it's judgmental but with good reason, you can justify long hours for little money all you want but you will never convince me that it's right.
Please support our advertisers:
FKKC
16 yrs ago
optimistic - please let us know how much we should pay our DH and what is the right amount of hours to make it alright.
Please support our advertisers:
MayC
16 yrs ago
Okay, let's not argue. I think the MAIN problem is the poster, through no fault of her own, didn't express herself clearly.
When I first read it, I thought the helper was expected to work on her day off. I changed my opinion half way through.
Michtan, just talk to her and tell her how you felt. You've always been happy with her right? Perhaps this is a one off mistake that she made. She may have been very concerned and very upset (she may have sent lots of valuable stuff in the courier) and wanted to sort it out as soon as possible. She was rushing and she mistakenly thought that it was no big deal taking your son out for a while. I'm sure if you talk to her, she'll realise this.
Good luck.
Please support our advertisers:
optimistic
My quote, "I'd prefer my helper to work on Saturdays so I had help with the kids" is a paraphrase of Michtan's various posts about her helper having Saturdays off.
I could be wrong in my interpretation but even if we take the statement, " My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet I am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself! ", there is no basis for you questioning her decision to have children! Not nice and completely off the point.
I'm not saying you shouldn't disagree with Michtan if that is your opinion. Nor am I "justifying long hours for little money" or saying that there aren't injustices in the way domestic helpers are treated in HK.
What I am saying is it is not appropriate for you to grandstand about those general topics here. By doing so, you infer that she is one of these bad employers - otherwise why talk about these social injustices here? Is she somehow accountable or representative?
Your comments on her particular situation are also very harsh, given she is working in her third language and you, I assume, are working in your first? I agree that Michtan's posts are not very clear but others have managed to give advice without insult.
We can debate the "realities" of HK domestic relations in another thread if you like. I feel bad monopolising Michtan's thread, as it is.
Please support our advertisers:
Please support our advertisers:
maybe i didn't express myself clearly. i was confused and my helper didn't explained herself clearly. naturally i was angry and therefore i wrote "My husband goes back to work on saturdays and yet i am nice enough to grant her off day having to take care of the kids all by myself"!! even at work, i believe your boss will ask 'what happen' (acting concern) when staff need to take urgent time off. besides we have very close relationship and my helper intend to walk out the door without telling me anything! of course, i will be wondering 'what happen'??? i thot we are heading to mac for breakfast!!! i am human and i have feelings and my grammer may not be as good as you people responding to my post. i needed help and not these all harsh comments. what makes you people think that i'm ill treating my helper?
as a first time employer, i'm actually interested in what kind of benefits, bonus, rewards, working hours and living conditions are you providing for your employee. i was told by many people living in the same estate that i was providing too much!!!
Please support our advertisers:
i did have a talk with my helper last night. she admitted that she was in a rush and she choose not to tell me anything. she thinks thats 'i'm okay with it' and thats always the case when she step out of the house! no need permission from me! i told her that i was angry that she took my boy out without letting me know but she claimed that she did it out of good intentions. the talk did cleared the misunderstanding but i am not too sure if i should change the way we work!
Please support our advertisers:
Sorry, i took the "fun" out of this thread Chuck3. I'm sure that michtan was having a wow of a time being told her conduct was "disgusting" and maybe she shouldn't have had children.
I guess the point we can agree on is that no-one likes being told how to behave - you, me or michtan.
Please support our advertisers:
Again if her post said what she meant the responses would of been different you can only respond to what's written.
FKKC i would consider more than 10 hours a day 6 days a week excessive, would you or your partner be happy to work that and more for minimum wage?
my point is if you want need more then you should be willing to pay more we ALL know what's fair and what isn't.
Please support our advertisers:
So, assuming a max of 10 hours a day, 6 days per week, what would you consider a fair wage optimistic?
Please support our advertisers:
How many of you are paying your helpers more than the min salary of hkd3580?? What is the guideline? I am paying my helper hkd4800 monthly plus food allowance of hkd300 a week!
Please support our advertisers:
"How many of you are paying your helpers more than the min salary of hkd3580?? What is the guideline? I am paying my helper hkd4800 monthly plus food allowance of hkd300 a week!"
Guideline is a bit tricky. I would say if a helper performs well and you can afford it, pay her more. This will make her more motivated and she will have an incentive to re-up her contract with you. Also, if a helper works a lot, paying well is a good thing. Just like any other employer, you get what you pay for.
For the record, we pay more than 6k including food allowance.
Please support our advertisers:
We pay 5800 for a five and a half day week plus food, tv/dvd, cd player, phone and 4 weeks a year holidays and all public holidays.
If i expected my helper to work more hours i would expect to pay more however my point is that if all you can afford to pay is minimum wage that's ok if you don't then expect 60 hours plus a week for it. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a helper just be realistic and fair in your expectations for what your paying.
Please support our advertisers:
MayC
16 yrs ago
I only paid the minimum. I told her upfront that I couldn't afford it. However, whenever I could, I gave her someting "extra" to make up for it. Eg. Extra paid holidays, paid for her trips back to the Phillipines (2 weeks per year), extra bonus for Christmas and on many occasions, Saturdays and Sundays off. Not much, I know.
I don't have a helper now. My inlaws are looking after my daughter during the day time until I finish work so we can save money. Oh well...
I'm still in touch with her though.
Please support our advertisers:
I agree you need to be "realistic and fair' but what that means in each household may vary - the test is not an arbitrary 10 hour rule but whether the helper feels overworked or exploited.
For example, this morning my helper told me she had walked the dog at 5.15am! When I asked why, she said that she loves walking at that time in the morning. It invigorates and energises her. Because she is taking the dog, she is technically working - and I benefit from her doing that even though I don't require her to be working at that time.
I do require her help between 4 and 8 in the evening - which makes it a long day for her if she starts at 5.15am even if she has "down time" between noon and 4pm. Am I exploiting her by allowing her to start work when she chooses? Does she feel exploited? Should I adjust her work hours to take into account her early start so that I don't have her help when I need it most?
I don't think my helper feels exploited in this situation. She has told me she loves working for our family. This works for both of us.
We are away from HK for up to 4 months a year (over the summer, holidays and long weekends). During this time, my helper needs to be in Hk to look after the dog. Her hours would be 2 to 3 hours a day and her work day is pretty easy. Because she is working, however, she accrues annual leave for the public holidays and Sundays we are away. In January she had 4 weeks holiday and has already accrued another months' worth of leave.
So, she works longer days for 7 to 8 months of the year, shorter days for 3-4 months and has a month's leave each year. It doesn't fit within optimistic's 10 hour day "reasonable test" but we both think that it is realistic and fair.
Please support our advertisers:
Oh, forgot to say, we pay $5000 salary, $1000 food. Christmas presents to the value of around $1000 and Lai See of $500. We give bonuses of extra days annual leave.
Please support our advertisers:
smallfry you can justify long hours any way you want but it does not make it right and yes a helper working long hours is being exploited. Are you really saying you can't cope with help 8 hours a day 6 days a week and need more support? Do you really need that much help or is it because you don't need to pay extra no matter how many hours you ask of your happy helper?
Anyway not arguing with you back and forth, you are never going to convince me that long hours are fair or right for anybody let alone people on minimum wage.
Please support our advertisers:
Of course but i'd also sooner work for someone paying me more and treating me well than someone paying me less. Why would someone who expected a normal working day make a helpers life a living hell? someone who was inclined to do this is also more likely to demand long hours.
I find it surprising that despite the fact you appreciate your helper Cara that you don't see fit to reward such a hard working experienced helper with a higher salary. Just out of interest what is your basis for paying the salary you do for long hours?
There are of course many helpers who are happy enough but lets not kid ourselves that all helpers who renew or don't complain are happy and wouldn't sooner be working in a 9 till 5 job in a office rather than cleaning up after other people. Many helpers have little choice if they want to work.
Please support our advertisers:
"yes a helper working long hours is being exploited. "
says you - but not my helper and it is her opinion that counts in this case.
"Are you really saying you can't cope with help 8 hours a day 6 days a week and need more support?"
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying my helper works long days because she chooses when to start. I employed her to do housework (about 3 hours a day) and to assist with the children at the busy time of the day between school, homework, dinner and bed. Probably about 7 hours total work time but because of her choice to start work early and because the busy period is 4 to 8pm her work day is long.
"you are never going to convince me that long hours are fair or right for anybody let alone people on minimum wage."
I can see that. And you will never convince me that the arbitrary standards you use in your house are the appropriate criteria for the rest of Hong Kong or that households which don't use your standards are unfairly exploiting their helpers.
Please support our advertisers:
"smallfry you can justify long hours any way you want but it does not make it right and yes a helper working long hours is being exploited. Are you really saying you can't cope with help 8 hours a day 6 days a week and need more support? Do you really need that much help or is it because you don't need to pay extra no matter how many hours you ask of your happy helper?
Anyway not arguing with you back and forth, you are never going to convince me that long hours are fair or right for anybody let alone people on minimum wage."
My wife works 60-70 hour weeks, and it used to be 80-100 hours. Is that exploitation? She simply gets paid more. When I worked in a hotel one summer, I didn't have a day off in 2½ months (and I got paid helper level wages). Is that exploitation? You can't just take "long hours" out of context.
I think smallfry's arrangement makes perfect sense. To summarize:
- The helper gets plenty of very short days while the employer is away for four whole months.
- She gets downtime in the afternoon.
- She gets 4 weeks vacation a year.
- She is paid well above minimum wage.
The arrangement made with that helper is quite reasonable as long as the helper agrees to it. The long hours during the rest of the time are more than compensated by the many months of short hours and extra vacation weeks.
Now, if the helper worked 13-16 hour days every single day all year and was paid minimum wage, it would be a completely different situation. And yes, there are helpers who are forced to put in 16 hours a day.
"is she happy with us? she must be. she's signed another 2 year contract, her third with us. she is VERY happy with the way she is treated."
There's another point. If a helper is really unhappy, she is free to seek another employer.
Please support our advertisers:
axptguy as i said anyone being asked to work that many hours is wrong so yes i would call it exploitation. What other word is there for it?
This has never been about what smallfry does but a general comment (smallfry has brought her own arrangements into the discussion for some reason and that has become the focus)
I believe long hours for minimum wage is wrong that's all.
yea she can leave axptguy but i find it hard to believe that you genuinely think it's as straight forward as that for them
One last time smallfry would you or your partner accept long hours for the same minimum wage because your employer expected it from you? and before you start telling me again how great you are to your helper remember this is not about you but employers who do expect 10 hours plus a day for little reward.
Please support our advertisers:
No need to be so defensive Cara it was just a question. I naturally assumed money wasn't a problem if you where going to be hiring your helpers husband and paying two wages so was interested in what made you decide on the salary you pay.
Please support our advertisers:
"One last time smallfry would you or your partner accept long hours for the same minimum wage because your employer expected it from you? and before you start telling me again how great you are to your helper remember this is not about you but employers who do expect 10 hours plus a day for little reward."
I don't recall telling you "how great" I am to my helper. What I did say was our domestic arrangements work for both of us despite the fact that they don't accord with your personal standards of what constitutes fair and realistic work conditions.
The reason I mentioned my specific situation was to provide a real example of domestic arrangements that work and why. Also, if this discussion was "never about" me, why the need for the judgmental remarks?
As to whether my partner or i would accept minimum wages for little or no reward, the answer is yes if that was the best I could get. And if I felt that I was being exploited or overworked I'd try to change or improve my position - either by speaking to my employer or changing jobs - depending on what appeared to me to be the best option.
I don't really see how this is relevant to the discussion though....are we back to discussing the legions of anonymous employers out there taking advantage of their helpers?
Please support our advertisers:
smallfry so why all the details of what you pay give etc and expressing how blissfully happy your helper is if not to show what a great employer you are?
As another poster pointed our you very good at telling others off for there opinions but you are just as determined your view is right.
Sorry but words are easy especially when there is no other answer when you condone it for helpers
It's relevant because nobody wants to work long hours for little money so why would a helper want to do it any more than you yourself would.
Anyway enough said time to move on to something more constructive
Please support our advertisers:
"smallfry so why all the details of what you pay give etc and expressing how blissfully happy your helper is if not to show what a great employer you are?'
I provided details of pay in response to michtan's (remember her?) request - see above. As i recall, you also gave this information. Was that also to show what a great employer you are?
"As another poster pointed our you very good at telling others off for there opinions but you are just as determined your view is right."
Of course I think my view is right. Why would I bother to post something I think is wrong? i think my posts disagree with you but support your right to run your household as you choose. You, on the other hand, have thought it appropriate to make the following judgments about me:
"Are you really saying you can't cope with help 8 hours a day 6 days a week and need more support?
Do you really need that much help or is it because you don't need to pay extra no matter how many hours you ask of your happy helper?
(smallfry has brought her own arrangements into the discussion for some reason and that has become the focus)
and before you start telling me again how great you are to your helper remember this is not about you but employers who do expect 10 hours plus a day for little reward.
smallfry so why all the details of what you pay give etc and expressing how blissfully happy your helper is if not to show what a great employer you are?"
It seems to me a lot more judgment on your part than mine.
"It's relevant because nobody wants to work long hours for little money so why would a helper want to do it any more than you yourself would"
But I said that I would do it if that was the best I could get!
Please support our advertisers:
Bit late in the day to show concern for the original poster smallfry
Questions are not judgments, look the definitions up if your still unclear on this
Of course you would
Please support our advertisers:
chuck3, just wanted to comment on one of the points you raised in your last post --
"This is half the fun of blogs / forums. You can put your opinions, emotions, and ideas out there unfiltered, which you pretty much ruined that on this forum smallfry."
i'm afraind i cannot agree completely. just because we are speaking on a forum without really knowing who is whom does not mean (to me) that we should not speak with the same level of respect, decency, understanding and appropriate reserve which we would normally display when we talk to people face to face. at least that's what i've always done. i know other internet users may not agree with me and some even act as if a forum is a venue for ventilating in a way they cannot appropriately do in the non-virtual world (i'm not pointing to anyone on THIS forum but just a phenomenon i've noticed generally). each to their own, but i just think a little more consideration and politeness with a little less arbitrariness may lead to more constructive discussion and save people the time to defend and back up every single word they say in order not to be attacked.
as to what's been discussed in the latest posts -- like many other threads about similar sensitive issues, it doesn't seem to me that either side is likely to be persuaded by the other and these heated discussion is likely to go more and more off topic and end up a "some people don't deserve a helper" or "why don't you do everything yourself" one. maybe it's time to call an end and let's all go back to our own way of running our house and treating our helper (with respect, decency and generosity of course).
Please support our advertisers:
Your right miao miao but i guess this is always likely to happen when people feel so strongly about something. My apologies to michtan for the way the thread has gone
Please support our advertisers:
MayC
16 yrs ago
miao miao, well said.
Sometimes I find that attacks are unwarranted. Examples quoted are always to the extreme either leaning in support of helpers or the other way, in support of employers. Most of us fall in between but if we move one step in either direction, you stand to be criticised. This isn't fair. We all have different needs, different wealth and different relationships with our helpers.
I mean, you're lucky if you have the means to pay your helpers above minimum. I wish I could as well but I can't. I'm an expat without an expat package. There are lots of decent Chinese employers out there who would love to pay above minimum as well if they could but they aren't on expat packages. What makes an expat a better person than these?
I agree that for a helper, getting more $$ working for an expat family is appealing and they love it, just as we would go for jobs that offer us a higher pay.
However, there is no need to think that other employers who can't afford are exploiting their helpers. As long as they pay the market rate, there is no exploitation there.
There are employees out there who are like some helpers, they love working in an organisation even if they don't get paid much because they have great relationships with their bosses.
Why do we always have to justify how we treat our helpers (me included)?
When I had a helper, I was grateful for the nights when she said to me, "Mam, you are tired from work, let me take over your daughter's care. Go to sleep early. I'll put her to sleep" and I let her, grateful but I let her.
Some of you don't have to work full time so you can help out more at home but the rest of us cannot do so. Some of us can cope with the pressures of a high flying career, come back and still attend to the kids without a single help from the helper but some prefer to use help if help is at hand. So what? Who are you to say that if you can't look after your kids full time, don't have them? What is wrong with a woman wanting a career and kids? Just because you agree to some help, doesn't make you a bad mother. Motherhood is already tough. Let's not make each other feel guilty anymore than we already do trying to be perfect.
I am not using a helper and I've had to do everything myself. I work hard and I have to do the housework myself, attend to my daughter's care as well as teaching her. Sometimes I get so busy trying to get dinner ready and getting my daughter ready for bed that I don't have time to teach her. So then others may attack me and say that I am a bad mother.
You can't win and trying to perfect has a huge strain on a mother. Why do this to one another?
It's okay to express differing opinions and advices but there is no need to be spiteful, no need to judge. Just address the question.
Please support our advertisers:
"axptguy as i said anyone being asked to work that many hours is wrong so yes i would call it exploitation. What other word is there for it?
This has never been about what smallfry does but a general comment (smallfry has brought her own arrangements into the discussion for some reason and that has become the focus)
I believe long hours for minimum wage is wrong that's all."
And how many hours of unpaid domestic work do you think these ladies would do at home? Probably just as many.
As cara said, you're only seeing what you want to see. smallfry's helper seems to have quite a nice cycle going, with short hours for a large portion of the year and long during other months. Many helpers would love that.
The reason smallfry's arrangements are the focus is because narrowly looking at hours and salary without consideration for other factors doesn't work. Many people could make more or work less but choose not to because they have a nice work arrangement at their current place. If this means long hours, but they are ok with it, what's wrong with that? There are few such absolutes in work life. Heck, lots of interns work for very low (or no) wages, 14 hours a day. Are they exploited? Nope, because they feel that it gets them experience or whatever. There are always shades of grey. Just saying x->exploitation misses the big picture.
Please support our advertisers:
Optimistic,
1. Bit late in the day to show concern for the original poster smallfry"
Have you actually read any of my posts? If so, you might recall that the reason I became involved in this thread was due my concern for the way michtan was attacked by Chuck3.
Subsequently, michtan asked "How many of you are paying your helpers more than the min salary of hkd3580?? What is the guideline? I am paying my helper hkd4800 monthly plus food allowance of hkd300 a week!" and I responded to that in my next two emails - the first of which also addressed your point of what is "realistic and fair".
I agree with Cara's observation that "you really are only seeing what you want to see in people's posts, optimisitc."
2. "questions are not judgments, look the definitions up if your still unclear on this"
I find it quite funny that you would correct my English language skills as a way of explaining your judgments (I maintain that is the appropriate expression) about my relationship with my helper and my ability to manage my household. Thanks for that!
I continue to think that the arbitrary standards you use in your house are not the appropriate criteria for the rest of Hong Kong and that households which don't use your standards are not, prima facie, unfairly exploiting their helpers.
Miao-miao and MayC, I agree with the points you make. In particular:
let's all go back to our own way of running our house and treating our helper (with respect, decency and generosity of course).; and
We all have different needs, different wealth and different relationships with our helpers.
However, there is no need to think that other employers who can't afford [to pay above market rate] are exploiting their helpers. As long as they pay the market rate, there is no exploitation there.
Please support our advertisers:
"I continue to think that the arbitrary standards you use in your house are not the appropriate criteria for the rest of Hong Kong and that households which don't use your standards are not, prima facie, unfairly exploiting their helpers."
Well put. There is no set formula for treating an employee fairly and with dignity. As long as you do treat your helper fairly and with dignity, there can be a lot of flexibility in the actual arrangements in your specific case.
Please support our advertisers:
Sorry but if you expect long hours for minimum wage YOU ARE EXPLOITING your helper your own difficulties and family life are just that yours and not your helpers.
are the factory workers in China /India working for 5 US a day or less being exploited? the world thinks so despite the fact that these people would sooner do this than have no money at all.I guess it all comes down to your own morale compass on what's acceptable and what's not.
My final comments on this thread as it is pointless saying the same old stuff over and over
Please support our advertisers:
mrsl
16 yrs ago
Optimistic, we pay our helper marginally more than you do for not a huge amount of work, as I am at home. I could say that by comparison, you are exploiting your helper. We used to live in Singapore; I promise you that HK helpers are living the high life by comparison. Most are using their time there as a stepping stone towards jobs in HK. You cannot measure things in absolutes. A friend's helper earns a tad more than half of what ours does and has to work much harder as my friend works part time outside the home. Her helper has had many approaches from people offering her shorter hours for more money but she has turned them all down because she feels valued (and earns almost double what she did in a previous job in Singapore). She is happy. So you cannot ram your arbitrary definition of exploitation down people's throats.
If the minimum rate was increased materially in HK, many helpers would lose their jobs because many people cannot afford to pay more. I promise you that they would not thank you for 'fighting for their rights' when they are flying back home without meeting the financial targets they had set themselves when they came to work here. I'm not disputing for one second that there are cases of abuse out there, but you're not doing anything to advance the cause of helpers by jumping down the throats of well meaning employers who come on here asking for simple advice.
Please support our advertisers:
mrsl, how much do Singaporeans pay their helpers? How long do these helpers work in one day? How many days off do they get in one month? I know each household is different, so you can give an average to each question.
Do you think helpers in Singapore are being exploited? I just want to make a comparison.
Please support our advertisers:
mrsl
16 yrs ago
Average pay is S$4000 (HK$2000), although cost to employer is higher as levy is about S$275 and insurance is S$200 pm from memory. Only 1 day off a month. Guessing hours are as variable as they are here. For current info, you'd have top look at the MOM website. Obviously, there are many people who pay more and give at least 1 day off a week.
It';s not just pay and time off though; helpers have minimal rights. They have to leave the country if they get pregnancy, are not allowed to marry Singaporeans etc. If a helper breaks any of the conditions set down by the govt, the employer has to pay a S$5,000 fine, so my guess is that there are more cases of abuse. I certainly have heard many stories of girls being locked in to apts and so on; presumably with the view to 'controlling' them and protecting their S$5k.
Singapore is just an example, there are many countries where the conditions are so much worse than HK. That is not to say that many helpers are genuinely happy here. Many employers come on here looking for genuine constructive advice on how to optimise their working relationships with their helpers. The knee jerk reaction of jumping down the throats of posters assuming that they mean the worst can be counterproductive.
Please support our advertisers:
mrsl
16 yrs ago
Sorry, meant S$400, not S$4000
Please support our advertisers:
That's very interesting info. Thanks.
Given that difficult working environment (generally) and low wages, many still go there to work as domestic helpers. I would assume the women come from the same poor Asian countries.
So now, the question is, is Singapore exploiting their helpers more than Hong Kong? (Sorry if the question is out of topic).
Please support our advertisers:
We all know Two wrongs don't make a right
Please support our advertisers:
You're missing the point optimistic. It is all relative. Our helper works just over 6 hours a day, but it spread over a 10 hour period (basically cooks meals and cleans, does no childcare). She is well paid, even by your standards. We could say that you are exploiting your helper. The helper mentioned above is happy, earning about half of that amount and working many more hours. As the poster mentioned, she has turned down better paying jobs.
THe women who come here do so knowing the terms. If what we paid was the minimum, most would be out of jobs because 90% of employers cannot afford to pay over $6k. Much as everyone wants more money, most would prefer to be employed than without any opportunities at all. THe reality is that they have job because their rates are within people's means. Call it wrong if you want, but it is what is feeding, educating and putting the roofs over a lot of children's heads.
Please support our advertisers:
Sorry but you are missing the point, If you can't pay more than minimum don't expect more than minimum from your helper i'm just not sure why that idea should be so offensive to you.
That way you get a helper and she gest paid appropriately for her work hours and god forbid can have a life outside of her work place.
Please support our advertisers:
One more time.....I pay considerable more than the minimum and I ask a lot less than what you consider reasonable. But that is just me. Other people and other helpers are in different circumstances. I am not in a position to judge them and their values or priorities.
We once had a helper who just would not stop working. She was repeating jobs that she had already one that day because she seemed incapable of sitting and watching tv or going out for a walk etc. She drove me insane even though many people would have loved to have employed her. She constantly complained that she was bored and therefore not happy. SHe now works for a single mother for less money and is happy. It's not all black and white.
As you will see from another thread, helpers have their choice of jobs; some refuse to work with children, others will only work with certain nationalities etc., and good for them. I find nothing 'offensive' as you call it about having a life outside work, in fact I wish my helper would leave us alone more often and meet up with her friends. The point is that I cannot force her, just because you sit in their armchair smuggly telling me that they know what is best for someone that you have never met. She has a tv, an old PC, dvd, iPod etc. etc. What do you suggest; that I frogmarch her down to the local church group and force her to meet people every evening?
I am not disputing for one minute that there are many cases of exploitation. As smallfry pointed out, the helper herself is the one to make the call. Assuming the worst of employers when they are trying to improve their working relationships is counterproductive. Take this thread, after Michtan had confirmed that her helper had Saturdays off, she continues to be asked whether her helper has a day off or not and told she may as well not have bothered having children. So instead of offering constructive advice, posters just hang out on this board looking for ways to offend. There were a few bits of advice hidden between the paragraphs of personal abuse.
If you genuinely care about the plight of helpers, then try to offer workable advice to those who come on here in good faith seeking ways of improving their management technique. Work in one of the free advice centres for those who are unhappy with their circumstances. Just being snide does not improves anybody's life.
Please support our advertisers:
PS - apologies for my typos, my keyboard is falling apart and my edit function does not seem to work.
Please support our advertisers:
I have chatted a great deal with my helper about this and she said that most helpers feel obliged to work long hours for fear their employers wont renew them or think them lazy. That many of her friends are not happy but cannot afford to leave orfear their next job might be even harder.
One of the reasons i feel the way i do about it is because of the sad stories i've heard from both helpers and employers over the years.
I cannot of course change the way things are but i feel i would be just as guilty as the bad employers out there if i say nothing.
Please support our advertisers:
mum of 2 i forgot to say if the edit function doesn't work it may be the browser your using i had the same problem using safari (not supported fully) but it works ok with firefox.
Please support our advertisers:
mayo
16 yrs ago
It's great to know there are people like you around optimistic. I met a an Australian women here in HK who had grown up in aparthied south africa and she said she heard many of the same justifications here she heard then. Like we pay them enough to feed their families, without us they may not have jobs at all etc etc. But there its a theory that paying people enough for to stay but never enough to leave will just continue the cycle of poverty. I am a second generation australian of filipina origins whose grandmother was a domestic servant in Manilla. Someone paid her enough to leave after after many years of service. Her daughter moved to Australia, her grandaughter was able to get a university degree and they cycle was broken. Having these women help us does improve our quality of life but what if we sacraficed just a bit of that quality we can afford and tried to improve theirs. It might not make financial sense but so what.
Please support our advertisers:
mayo
16 yrs ago
ps. Cara i have ready many of your posts and you seem to be a person with their heart in the right place. I think its wonderful what you are doing to keep a family together and I realise it's a completely different kettle of fish when both parents work outside the home. applause.
Please support our advertisers:
Mayo, we always ask at interview what the person's aims are in doing this job. Of course, many of the answers are about loving cooking, cleaning etc (the stuff that they think you want to hear), but a few of those girls have incredibly detailed plans. We have always hired people with a financial timeline and aim in working here. Our current helper has already bought a farm. Her boyfriend has already bought their house and a taxi firm by working on ships. Apparently they have saved enough to send their unborn children to school, but with 3 more years' work they will have university fees saved for 2. She was able to tell us exactly how much salary she needed to reach that goal. She also asked us to fly her boyfriend here rather than sending her home twice a year, because the cost is the same to us and she does not lose a chunk of her savings to family and friends who come begging.
I have not examined the numbers as it is none of my business but their plan seems to make a lot of sense. I have very few Western, university educated friends who have such well executed financial plans. I am painfully aware that for every story like this, there are many being bled dry by loan sharks etc., but there are quite a few motivated people taking control of their own lives.
Please support our advertisers:
There are many good employers, and maybe it is safe to bet that there are more of them than the bad ones.
However, it is the employers who are in the position to take advantage (exploit) their helpers most of the time. They are in the position of strength. If employers suffer some inconveniences and problems with their helpers (just like michtan, the original poster), it is also true that many helpers are getting exploited. By that I mean, being asked to work more than 12 hours each day, to hand wash clothes to save on electricity, to sleep in the kitchen, etc.
I believe that optimistic and many other posters here are against these kind of employers.
Please support our advertisers:
Spot on Punter that's exactly what I'm against
Thanks mayo appreciate your kind words
Please support our advertisers:
punter, you can safely bet that most of the regular posters on this board abhor exploitation of FDHs in HK and that most of us consider ourselves to be good employers, able to provide advice to those seeking it here with reference to what works in our experiences.
It is offensive to be told that, because these experiences and circumstances differ from optimistic's view of what is "realistic and fair" that we are bad employers. She is in no position to judge the rest of HK on the basis of what works in her household.
Hers are not universal standards of good and evil.
We are all in agreement that helpers should be treated with respect and decency and that some helpers are poorly treated. Optimistic does not have a monopoly on this concern and this is not the point we were discussing.
The discussion that I, and others, were debating with optimistic was about what constitutes "exploitation". I do not see how optimistic's comments and opinions on this point lead to the conclusion that she is any more concerned about helpers rights than any one else or, for that matter, whether she is any better an employer. We simply disagree on the appropriate test of exploitation.
optimistic has said repeatedly that anyone in HK who expects a full-time helper on a minimum wage to work more than 10 hours a day is exploiting that helper. No exceptions.
Both Cara and I were told that we are exploiting our helpers because they work long days even though neither helper is on the minimum wage (this is detailed above). As there are many more helpers on minimum wage working more than 10 hours (not 12 as you say) in HK, optimistic says that there are many more bad employers in HK than good. Again, no exceptions.
Various posters have responded to this in different ways and using differing examples. These have either been ignored by optimistic or dismissed as justification for exploitation.
The basic counter-argument is that every household is different and, in the words of axpatguy38, "narrowly looking at hours and salary without consideration for other factors doesn't work. Many people could make more or work less but choose not to because they have a nice work arrangement at their current place. If this means long hours, but they are ok with it, what's wrong with that?" Or, as mayc said, "We all have different needs, different wealth and different relationships with our helpers."
Rather than an arbitrary 10 hour rule being the appropriate test, I suggested that we need to ask the helper if she feels exploited or overworked - she is the only person able to assess whether the compensation for her labour is, in optimistic's words "realistic or fair".
A number of posters also commented on optimistic's harsh and judgmental statements about the values of other employers (eg questioning michtan's decision to have children). Standing up for helpers' rights does not necessarily equate to employer bashing. It is not admirable to criticise other employers and assume exploitation of FHDs because those values are different. People are seeking advice not judgment.
Please support our advertisers:
FKKC
16 yrs ago
"People are seeking advice not judgement". So true! Every households have different ways of why they want helpers and as long as both parties agreed and worked within the law...there shouldn't be any argument.
Please support our advertisers:
As you are just repeating everything you have said already it seems rather pointless smallfry despite what you say or think plenty of people agree with me on what it fair and what is not and it seems a little odd to then attack punter for recognizing what i was saying.
If you want a day plus work out of a helper but pay her minimum wage you are exploiting her regardless of what your circumstances are and the excuses made to justify it.
Mum of 2 has just posted something that goes to prove how much helpers will endure so as not to lose there jobs so please stop trying to say these helpers are happy with this! what the heck else do you think they are going to tell you.
I notice mayo's post was ignored when it was so relevant (shame)
Oh and in many many jobs you work an arbitrary 8 hours a day for your salary
Please support our advertisers:
Beautifully said, smallfry!
Let's all remember this is an advice forum. (Not a judgemental feeding frenzy forum.)
Please support our advertisers:
cd
16 yrs ago
You also need to look at what the helper does during the day, even if they start early and finish late they are usually not working the whole time, and many have long breaks. I see many helpers picking up kids from school each day, they all get there up to an hour early so they can chat to their friends, often the kids have afterschool activites, which the helper waits for them from, so although they are officially working, they are actually spending 2-3 hours chatting with their friends.
For example my helper often takes my disabled son for a walk after school, so again although he's 'working' he's out down the road chatting to the neighbours helpers. Most helpers do not do 12 hours of solid work each day.
Agree with smallfry, the best bet is to ask your helper if they feel they are being exploited, I think the majority of helpers in HK are satisfied with their employers and vice versa.
Please support our advertisers:
mrsl
16 yrs ago
optimistic, all smallfry is saying, and all mum of 2 and others were saying before her is that nobody doubts that there is abuse. They were protesting that using a thread in which someone is asking for genuine advice as a forum for accusing all employers of being slave drivers is inappropriate and counterproductive. If people cannot come on line here to try to learn from one another's experiences, then that is one less way improving their relationships with their helpers. Everybody loses when someone who simply asks whether or not she is being reasonable gets told that she should never have had children or whatever.
The other thread to which you were referring appears to have arisen from this one. Mum of 2 had the decency to start her on thread rather than jumping on her soapbox attacking innocent posters here. If you read it, you will also see that the majority of the women to whom she spoke were fairly happy with their lot. So, rather than tarring all employers with the same brush, why not help those who ask for it with proper advice given in an appropriate manner?
Nobody finds the concept of a decent wage for a decent day's work 'offensive' as you say. What people do find offensive is the fact that some posters here refuse to show employers the same respect that they rightly give to helpers.
Please support our advertisers:
mrs things have somehow got out of control because there are very strong feelings for and against.
Regardless of the reasons expecting long hours for little reward is wrong in my book and that's the only morale compass i can work too.
If you read the posts carefully you will see that there was great confusion with what the original poster was saying and many believed she was being unfair. It was established that it was different to what they initially said but the discussion had already gone down that road of helpers being treated badly. I did not make the first comments on this
As for the other thread and mum of 2's comments they where batting back my comments that i had spoken with my helper in great detail about it all and she said that several of her friends where not happy with there lot but didn't feel able to say anything to employers.
Finally i have not tarred everyone with the same brush but are expressing my distaste at the way SOME employers treat there helpers and the hours they want them to work for the money they pay them.
Some posters for some reason have decided i was talking about them despite the fact i knew nothing about them so it was impossible when i was talking about bad employers in general and nobody specifically.
Please support our advertisers:
All posts deserve to be respected. We can't force our own beliefs/values onto others.
I believe that "bad" employers do bad things to their helpers not because they want to make it difficult for the helpers. Sometimes because they don't think what they're doing is bad at all. Sometimes it's because they want to get value out of their money. Sometimes it's because they see others doing the same. So although all agree that helpers need to be treated with respect, we don't share the same standards in that respect as well.
Look at cd's last comment. She/he basically thinks that when helpers are officially working while waiting (or walking) out for their wards it's supposedly not to be counted as "solid" work. I disagree with that because work is work. If the helper was not there, cd would be doing it daily and wouldn't have the time to get a job or other activities that improve her quality of life. Although I disagree, I still respect that view but at the back of my mind hope that he/she sees the error of his/her thoughts! How can I possibly make him/her change that view? There's just no way.
It's alright to disagree without being disagreeable.
Please support our advertisers:
cd
16 yrs ago
What I was getting at is that although helpers often do long hours, a lot of the time it is not hard work, and is very sociable, that is certainly the case for a lot of helpers in Clearwater bay anyway.
Theres a lot of difference between sitting chatting to your friends for 3 hours, and doing hard physical work.
most jobs that a helper does, like washing, ironing, cleaning, picking kids up from school, is the same job that a wife and mother has to do for no payment and no time off.
Please support our advertisers:
"most jobs that a helper does, like washing, ironing, cleaning, picking kids up from school, is the same job that a wife and mother has to do for no payment and no time off."
It is a fallacy to think housewives cost nothing. They are losing the income they would get from a salaried job, so certainly having a housewife in the family is a cost. So using the argument that "housewives do this anyway" is not really valid when talking about helpers.
Please support our advertisers:
Isn't there an Editor to close these threads!?
Seriously though, not everyone behaves how they 'should' all the time. Maybe your helper had a panic on too.
Have a chat with her and relax a little.
Also, it is possible to go to the shops with your children - as someone said, mothers do it all the time, in Europe/US.
I do think mothers can get a bit de-skilled in Hong Kong? (that is bound to happen) Easy if you have no choice, the are with with you 24/7. I have seen mothers with 4 well-behaved small children - lovely to see! But not the usual site in Hong Kong which is helpers on phones, looking after kids (at its worst, of course)
Also if she is Filipino, most of her friends will have Sunday off, which is perhaps why she was called upon.
Please support our advertisers:
< Back to main category
You must be logged in to be able to reply.
Login now
Copy Link
Facebook
Gmail
Mail