Posted by
bmkwong
16 yrs ago
I have recently signed a Domestic Helper that I found here on Asiaxpat in good faith that she was going to have the contract processed, and would submit the documents for processing herself. I was willing to pay a higher than usual salary of 5000 HKD, and the helper insisted that I write that amount in the contract. Much to my disgust and dismay, the helper has since been difficult to contact, and after calling her previous employer's office, she finally returned my call via sms. She stated that she was not going to work for me. She also refuses to return all the copies of the signed contract to me. I am certain that she is using the signed contract with the 5000 salary amount as a bargaining tool with other employers, as this can be the only reason I can think of for not being willing to return or destroy all the copies of the contract I signed with her. EMPLOYERS PLEASE BEWARE OF THIS TACTIC and protect yourselves. My advice would be NOT to give out personal documents in advance if you are signing a new helper, and to clearly write on any copies of documents that they are in fact copies only to be used for a specific purpose. After my experience, I will do all the processing myself in order to avoid the ordeal I have recently been through. Please beware of unscrupulous helpers on this website.
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why would anyone pay $5000 for a DH ??? the average wage is $3500, that's 50% more...
that's insane
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Ed
16 yrs ago
3500 is the minimum. There are many helpers who receive much higher salaries than this - I have heard of some receiving up to 7 or 8k per month. You get what you pay for.... the best helpers with the best skills (some are nurses) get paid more.
Kinda like people in finance, law, F&B and all other industries get paid more if they merit it... would that be considered insane?
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As Ed said it is by no means (far) above the average just above the very minimum you can pay a helper.
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BM, we had exactly the same thing a few years ago. Here is what you do. Get on the phone this afternoon to Immigration and tell them her name, ID no. (if you have) and a copy of the contract. Give them everything and tell them she has broken the contract. They will then cancell her or any future employment prospects here in Hong Kong. When this happened to us, we got a call from Imigration a few weeks later , with the domestic helper trying to get another job, when we spoke to her and asked her why she accepted the signed contract and dissapeared she simply replied she found another job. Its unaceptable behaviour and a deep misuse of any trust between helper and employer. It is then up to you and immigration how you deal with the situation. Good luck but get on the phone today. That is your signed contract and agreement she is miss-using.
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mine is different. i had this dh 2 & 1/2 months ago. we keep her passport and cellphone and give her only during day off.after 2 & a half mos. of working with us she gave us a 1 mo. notice that she is leaving because her husband want her to go home in the phils. we only know that she has a loan from a bank when she already left hong kong. can we blacklist this kind of person in getting jobs again in hong kong? i really felt disappointed by this situation advice me.
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McAlpine and krips, thanks for your kind relpies. Thanks especially for realising that my original thread was not about salary amounts, but rather a warning to employers to be very careful when providing personal documents to process contracts for newly signed domestic helpers. In fact, I have already contacted the Immigration Department, Police, and the Philippine Consulate regarding this matter, both in writing and via telephone. All 3 authorities have noted the details of this case and will contact me if necessary.
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bmkwong,
Other than the signed contract what other documents of yours does she have?
Did you and the helper both sign the contract?
If so then perhaps she feels she is just as entitled to it as you are and couldn't be bothered to bring it too you to be destroyed once she decided she no longer wanted to work for you.
It doesn't mean for sure that she's done anything wrong other than say she wont give the contract to you. I hope she isn't going to be in trouble just because she doesn't want to be your helper.
Good luck in finding someone else
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hi optimistic, she has 4 hard copies of my signed contract (signed by her as well), a photocopy of my ID card, and the other standard documents for processing the employment contract such as my income proof and proof of my residential address. (I'd rather not disclose the precise documents here.) As well, she had 500 HKD which I gave her in advance to cover the processing fees. Given the fact that she disappeared after taking my documents and 500 HKD and was extremely difficult to contact and very evasive on the one occasion I was able to contact her, I cannot believe it was a simple case of "she doesn't want to be my helper". If she would have had the very basic decentcy to contact me and inform me that she had changed her mind and chosen not to follow through with being my helper, I would have no issue with her.
optimistic, are you a domestic helper yourself, by chance?
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Well it does seem very odd behavior although i can't imagine why she'd want them. I's still a good possibility that she just didn't want to face you again after changing her mind and she simply destroyed the stuff and kept the 500 dollars. Lets hope that's all it is.
It's not unusual for helpers not answer their phone in difficult situations and others for that matter so i wouldn't read too much into it she obviously just didn't want to talk to you.
No I'm a UK expat
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So, (dishonestly) keeping 500 HKD and breaching an employer's trust who was acting in good faith is no big deal to you, optimistic? Interesting. The documents she has ARE important and private and MINE. She has never indicated she would destroy them, why would you think she would, given her past behaviour? And, for the record, I had been trying to call her over a period of 2 weeks all during which her mobile phone was turned on and ringing.
Again, had she had the courtesy of informing me that she had decided not to work for me, I would have been disappointed, but very understanding.
Employers, please be careful and diligent with your documents when providing them to your domestic helpers.
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I didn't say that bmkwong Yes you have every right to be angry with her but trying to destroy any possible chance of her working again just seems harsh.
No she didn't but what use are the documents too her? i can't imagine why she'd want them or keep the
Do you not have an address for her so you can go get the documents?
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Keeping the $500 is swindling, unless of of course it was already spent for the purpose it was given for. (By the way, 500 is not a very good reason to swindle somebody that's why I think that this is not the reason why the helper played a hide and seek game.)
For what purpose can the helper use the signed documents? I doubt if it is for leverage to get the same or higher salary. If you're the prospective employer and a helper shows you this document, will you pay the same amount or higher? I won't.
Maybe Ms. Wong is just angry because she was spurned by the helper? But then again, protecting what is "YOURS" is quite a valid reason to go to this great lengths in running after a domestic helper.
The DH's action is actually quite understandable (though not acceptable and it caused inconvenience to Ms. Wong). This helper was looking for a job and accepted employment with Ms Wong. Unfortunately, before the documents get approved all the way, the helper changed her mind. She now doesn't want to work for Ms. Wong, maybe because her house is too big even if she was to be paid a "princely" sum of 5,000 in exchange for 5-star cooking and cleaning in the huge house. So very understandable, isn't it?
So, the only use she gets out of the documents is for her stay in Hong Kong to be extended. The reason why she can post again here at AX.
This is one way a helper can "use" a prospective employer. That's why I think it is still better to use an agency when it's your first time to hire a specific helper.
On the flip side, there are many ways too that employers take advantage of helpers who are desperate to get a contract before their stay in HK expires.
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mine is different. i had this dh 2 & 1/2 months ago. we keep her passport and cellphone and give her only during day off
--- You can't do this, it's illegal. It's someone else's passport.
after 2 & a half mos. of working with us she gave us a 1 mo. notice that she is leaving because her husband want her to go home in the phils
--- good for her. I wouldn't last a day with a set up like this. The husband reason was probably not true, she just wants to quit from you
can we blacklist this kind of person in getting jobs again in hong kong? i really felt disappointed by this situation advice me.
---- Maybe the immigration should blacklist employers who don't treat their helpers right. You only give her phone on her day off, how pathetic is that? She can make calls after she's done with all her chores ( I'm guessing she probably has loads?) or during her breaks, that's if she has any?
---- Even if you've kept her passport and phone, this didn't stop her from taking loans. Why on earth do you treat people like that? I just don't get it.
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Again, thanks everyone for the replies. I am however, somewhat puzzled by some...
My original thread was intended to be a simple warning for employers to be careful when handing out their private documents to newly signed domestic helpers. Don't be too trusting or naive as I was, or you might get burnt.
I fail to understand why any party would object to this warning, unless they have some ulterior motive. Nor can I understand why a helper would not agree to return my documents unless she has some ulterior motive for keeping them. (I'm happy to hear at least that keeping the cash is agreed by all to be dishonest.)
In fact, I have heard of several cases of helpers still looking for a job while already holding signed contracts. These contracts were used as bargaining tools for negotiating salary and other terms of employment. (Isn't that more or less what the title of my original thread stated?)
I'm pleased with the amount of views and discussion my thread has created, but somewhat amused with the amount of assumptions made. (I dont' have a huge house, I'm a Mister, and I'm not angry, just frustrated and very disappointed with the lack of professional courtesy from that helper, and I'm hoping to save others from the stress I have recently endured.) Again, my thread was intended to be a simple, friendly, warning to potential employers out there to be cautious.
Cheers!
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To some, like me, this is no big deal. I share Optimistic's view that making it impossible for this helper to find another job is a little bit too much for this "transgression".
As I've mentioned, if a helper will try to negotiate with me the remuneration, it will be "NO" immediately. She has to earn first the salary increase. So to "use" the documents in this purpose just doesn't follow, but of course she can and as you've said you've heard of them. What was the result, by the way, of these kind of negotiations?
If you really don't want hassle when hiring a new maid, just go thru an agency. AX has it's own and they don't even charge that much.
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"why would anyone pay $5000 for a DH ??? the average wage is $3500, that's 50% more...
that's insane"
How is it insane? We pay well over 6000 including food allowance. She started lower but has proven herself to be hard working, resourceful, and just a fantastic employee. Like any good employer who wants to retain an employee would do, we raised her salary.
"3500 is the minimum. There are many helpers who receive much higher salaries than this - I have heard of some receiving up to 7 or 8k per month. You get what you pay for.... the best helpers with the best skills (some are nurses) get paid more."
Quite right. Our neighbors pay over 8k for each of their two.
"mine is different. i had this dh 2 & 1/2 months ago. we keep her passport and cellphone and give her only during day off.after 2 & a half mos. of working with us she gave us a 1 mo. notice that she is leaving because her husband want her to go home in the phils. we only know that she has a loan from a bank when she already left hong kong. can we blacklist this kind of person in getting jobs again in hong kong? i really felt disappointed by this situation advice me."
Keeping her passport and cell phone is illegal. As for quitting, any employee has the legal right to do this. As I see it, you are the one in the wrong. Shame shame on you.
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hi beancurd, as I have repeatedly mentioned, I honestly did not mind that the helper decided not to work for me, and you are quite right that both parties have the right to change their mind. (Although, I personally don't think one should do so after the contract has been signed by both parties.) And, yes, I am EXTREMELY thankful that I didn't get stuck hiring her.
What bothers me about this situation is:
1. COMPLETE LACK OF PROFESSIONAL COURTESY. She never even had the courtesy to inform me that she has changed her mind, and essentially disappeared or "did a runner" after taking my (signed) documents and money.
2. BREACH OF TRUST. I was willing to hire her, and provide her with a good working environment with generous pay and benefits. We had signed a contract, I had paid the fees in advance, and I was acting in good faith. (For those curious, we have no kids, no pets, non-smokers, flat size is only 1800 sq ft. brand new decoration with modern appliances and conveniences, nice helpers room with ensuite, storage, tv and telephone provided, food allowance, and a 2 week trip home to the Philippines per year including airfare and paid salary. I believe she backed out because my partner would be present at home during the daytime, and she preferred to have the home to herself.)
3. She refuses to return the contract and my documents. As I have already informed the relavant authorities, I doubt she can do much harm with them, however I do have a modest concern that she may try and use my documents to apply for some sort of loan or credit or something similar, perhaps online. While this may not be much of a serious threat, it is a nuisance I would rather do without. Also, she may try to use the documents for an extension at immigration; which was clearly not the intended purpose I signed the contract for. In any case if the contract and documents are so useless to her as some replies have suggested, WHY does she want to keep them? (I get the impression some of the comments posted might be from domestic helpers who have perhaps done this sort of thing themselves.)
4. I have to begin the time consuming process of finding and employing a helper all over again. I also missed hiring a few top choices of mine because I believed I would be employing that helper.
5. She has kept the 500 HKD. A small sum, but extremely dishonest, and an action which adds insult to injury.
Again, (sigh!) I reiterate that potential employers should be smart and exercise caution when providing their personal documents to a newly signed helper. This is an advice forum, and that is my advice based on a recent experience I had with a helper on this website.
Wish all Asiaxpat users a happy weekend!
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I must say that as an employer for the first time, I was unhappy with the amount of information on both the immigration forms, and the forms to the Phills consulate we had to divulge, which is there for any helper to see, we didn't mind giving it to the relavent authorities, but I think it should be done more discretely, without the future employee knowing too many details, such as our salaries, ID number. Our helper has a lot of family employed as helpers all over HK, and knows, and boasts about what their 'boss's' earn etc, in a harmless sort of way, But, too much knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
I'm sorry you have had this trouble with this particular, prospective employee ,lets hope it is more straightforward next time
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My advice is to contact the consulate where she will be processing her contract and tell them your story and that you want them to watch out of this person and when they finally get here paperwork for her "new contract" that they detain her and get back your money and your personal documents. You can collect them at the consulate if she is scared of you. This way the consulate will deal with her rather than you, I'm not sure if you will need to file a somplaint against her officially, but they do have officers that deal with problems and you certainly do have a problem here.
BTW, the contract is useless to the DH IF it has not yet been processed by the consulate,HK Imm. will not accept it at all. So a heads up to the consulate should render the contract null and void.
And YES if a potential helper being interviewed is carrying around a contract them the employer should BEWARE
Good luck
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OMG I think I rang Rebecca yesterday to ask about employment!!!
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beancurd, that is (sort of) my point. I did have a bad experience with that helper, and I want to share that experience with others here on this forum. But I disagree profoundly that it's just a bit of bad luck, and I should "just take it" as experience and let it go. STEALING IS STEALING AND IT'S WRONG. A SIGNED CONTRACT IS A SIGNED CONTRACT AND USING IT FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE IS WRONG.
I don't think I should need to apologize in any way for feeling this way. Right? There are still decent folks out there I trust, and I still have faith in the idea of right and wrong, and of course I realize this incident is not the end of the world. I simply want to share my experience and warn others so that they can avoid the same pit-falls that I encountered.
--As a small footnote, I do find it rather peculiar, however, that some repeatedly seem to feel the need to defend that helper and what she did. Is it because they think domestic helpers have the "right" to be dishonest and unfair to their good-intentioned employers? (No offence, but could those replies in fact be from such helpers/employees themselves, perhaps?)
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What I find objectionable is the following reasoning "many employers are unfair to their DH, so it's OK if I or other helpers are unfair to employers". I mean really, most helpers (of course not all) claim to be religious and go to church regularly - whatever happened to "do unto others as you would have done unto you"?
I myself have been screwed by agencies/helpers in the past, but that doesn't mean that it would be OK for me to take it out my present helper (who happens to be a really nice person and hasn't done anything wrong).
I also object to the claim that it doesn't matter if the helper does this to the employer as the employer "has plenty of time" to find a new DH. I have already described at length in another post (which was for some strange reason deleted?) why some employers have special cirumstances in which they absolutely have to have a helper and cannot manage without (e.g. either the parent or the kid is disabled/seriously ill) and in these cases - which are mosre numerous than you would think - every day counts to the employer who will be in a hurry to find a new helper and have her start work as soon as the outgoing one leaves. And before you say "find one with a finished contract" - it is NOT that easy. When I was hiring my present DH, all the finished contract helpers were either unwilling to work for me (workload too heavy: 7am - 9pm, 2 kids, stay home mum) or they were asking for more money/holidays than I could give. So in conclusion, it DOES matter if helpers cause employers this kind of delay, to some of us employers it matters a lot!
And to the OP - I agree that this person is most probably trying to use that signed contract to negotiate another "better" deal. And although some posters here have said such a tactic would never work on them, I believe there are plenty of people out there on whom this trick would work. But if it makes you feel better, I really don't think the helper will use your documents at all, I think she'll just chuck them, as it is too embarrassing to return them to you in person after having tricked you and she's too lazy to post them back. She probably doesn't realise how you feel about her holding your documents (this type of person rarely considers the feelings of others), and if you've told her you want the stuff back then her reason for not returning it is probably that she's already thrown it all away.
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wow! how lucky to have that amount of 5k a month... if I were you! don't tell your helper that she will have a salary of $5000 a month(only minimum wage ++++incentive) and better a surprise after you find out that she really worth of it.
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I'd say there is a good chance she put the documents in to extend her visa so she could look for a job she wanted.... Therefore she was in the catch 22 position of not being able to give you back the documents and also explains why she avoids you. That's a tough call, if it is that case as she may have decided to do that, and her friends may have encouraged her and after you do it, you can't back out as the consequences would then potentially get very messy for her. She probably gambled you wouldn't think too much about it. She may have thought your job too tough for her despite what she promised her abilities to be.. but she needed to extend her visa somehow to find something she could do... Or she goes home and the process is much harder and longer.
Otherwise it's a simple case of disrespecting someone else and then as we see, you can be in any role to do that. And karma can catch up.
Hmm. do you empathize if it is the first scenario and chalk it up to experience/understanding or does the case warrant more action/follow up?
Hmm. comes down to your character and what you thought of her character.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
Very wise of the O.P. to have informed the relevant departments to protect herself in case the helper bites back when she couldn't find herself a job she likes and is desperate. This helper has been in HK for 24 years so she knows her ways around to do things to suit her. Beware!
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BMKwong
The helper cant use the sign contrct as bargaining tool ..since the contrct is not proces.. second she cant get extend visa on that contrct...please go true the document of procesing the helper visa ... u will understand that contrct is in no use for the helper...I do not understand why u have given $ 500 to u r helper in advance...is that consulate fee? to proces contrct in consulate u need to give only id copy of emplyer .. bank statement is not req..... in consulate ....bank statement is given in emigration upon procesing the contrct with an resident address proof....all employers who are reading this can avoid these kind of truble by going with u r new helper to proces contrct if u dont trust them...sign contrct could be broken even after u start procesing contrct withiot giveing any notice ...even after u submit the contrct to emigration...these things are done when an helper finds the employer is no good and she dont feel like working for her she can give in writing to the emigration and stop procsing the contrct and she can look for new employer ....it is not crime ....also note this the consulate fee which is paid by employer cant be return...i think rebica must have been to consulate and did try to proces contrct ...and then change her mind and she dont want to work for wong she cant return money coz she spent ...the document is no use for her ...for more detail employer could call hongkong lebor department too ....there is no such law in hongkong saying helper or employer cant change there mind not to proces contrct.....everyone have there own rights ... there might be few employer who have gone true these kind of problems like wong... in the same time i would like to tell everyone here there are employer who have done like this to helpers too....look in both ways
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Totally disagree with evelyna. Unfortunately, she provides little more than a rather inaccurate rant. (Disgruntled maybe? Doesn't like sneaky strategies being exposed?)
Firstly, the helper most certainly could use bmk's documents for a visa extension at immigration, and in fact that very thing has happened to a couple of friends of mine. Helpers sometimes use signed contracts to get a visa extension simply so that they can have some extra time to look for a better offer from another employer. This is very wrong, but unfortunately it is quite common so employers should beware.
Second, there is a consulate fee. There are other processing fees as well. bmk made it quite clear that she paid those fees in advance in good faith the helper would process the paperwork. (And btw, spending the money thus making her unable to return it is perhaps the lamest excuse I've ever heard for stealing!)
Further, if after signing the contract, the helper changed her mind and decided not to work for bmk, then she should have immediately informed bmk and promptly returned everything rather than doing a runner. How rude was that??
evelyna's arguement that "there are employer who have done like this to helpers too" is not valid at all. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Finally, I myself have had more than one helper show up for employment interviews in the past with signed contracts from other employers in hand. They WERE using those contacts to try and rush me into signing, and to show me what salaries other employers were willing to pay. Needless to say, I did not employ those helpers, but I did pity the poor employer who had signed a contract and was unknowingly having that contract used for negotiating purposes. So, it can be said that helpers can try to use signed contracts as bargaining tools.
The only point of evelyna's that I might agree with, is that if an employer doesn't yet fully trust a brand new helper, then they should accompany that helper to have the contract processed. I would add in such cases that employers should not even provide any personal documents to the helper, but rather hand them directly to the relevant government departments themselves as needed.
Earlier in this thread I believe Snow Rose wisely and elegantly reminded us of the "golden rule" of treating others as we would like to be treated ourselves. If everyone remembered to follow this rule, the world would be a much better place indeed.
Oh, and I totally agree with the OP... we should be very careful with our personal documents when providing them to a new helper. Good advice. It's too bad that I wasn't using this website at the time when I encountered similar problems myself, or I too would have taken the time to warn employers of the potential hazards (as the OP has done) and perhaps could have saved bmk and others a bit of trouble.
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Welcome to the "been there, got done" club. The rogue helpers are not as rare as you think. My family and I (we do not all live together) have had experience of many rogue helpers - stealing, flirting with our men/husbands, using employers time to chit chat on the phone (one told me to put in call waiting "like all the other employers"), using our things when we are out of town, inviting friends (yes men too) back to our home. You name it, we've seen it all.
Actually we might actually compile documented stories of the rogues because we are tired and BORED of the men (usually Westerners) who stick up for them. Walk along certain areas in HK(you live here now so you should know where) and lo and behold, you will find literally dozens of domestic helpers with Western men. Where on earth with all the ballyhoo about their 10 hour days do they FIND the time? No surprises, alot of the Western men have picked them up in bars and are sticking up for them. Also no surprises, the ones who are fathers and who NEED their helpers stick up for them.
If you think these girls don't behave differently depending on whether the household is Western, Malaysian or Martian, you would be dead wrong. They are more respectful in households where the ethnicity is Caucasian. The one time I met this Dutch guy who went on about the racist HK Chinese exploiting Filippinas, I found out that he and his mate were sharing one helper between them and the helper was on one contract. He had 2 kids and his mate had one so they split the cost of hire. Come to think of it, if I get pissed off enough I might give his address to the Immigrations Authorities.
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"Welcome to the "been there, got done" club. The rogue helpers are not as rare as you think. My family and I (we do not all live together) have had experience of many rogue helpers - stealing, flirting with our men/husbands, using employers time to chit chat on the phone (one told me to put in call waiting "like all the other employers"), using our things when we are out of town, inviting friends (yes men too) back to our home. You name it, we've seen it all."
Yep, you're right BUT you forgot to mention normal employees as well. All the above applies in the normal workplace, and as for the generalisation of "Western men" well that is utter tosh. Just because you see a few mixed couples what does that mean? Are you assuming that all South East Asian women are FDH? A late 20's Indonesian female friend of ours is tired of being tarred with that stereotypical brush by all races and she is a Civil Engineer here in HK. Whether these women were / are FDH doesn't mean a damn thing. Luckily I don't live HK side and have to put up with this nose in the air attitude we see here.
And no, I am not married to FDH or an SE Asian which actually has no bearing but for the sake of humouring those who have such shallow attitudes, but do run businesses here and if you think you've seen it or know it all at home you haven't yet seen exactly how bad it can get in the workplace.
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mayo
16 yrs ago
I think it is very unfair and possibly slanderous to include the persons name in your post. I am surprised Ed let it pass.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
That is not allowed - can you hit the Report Abuse link to help me find and delete this - thanks
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mayo
16 yrs ago
I was referring the third posting from the top. The poster used dh applicants name.
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dnn
14 yrs ago
The same thing has just happened to me...
I recently found a helper posted here on this website, and after several telephone interviews and one meeting in person, I decided to employ that helper. We met again at my office and both parties filled out our particulars on the contract, and both parties signed the 4 copies of the contract. I also handed over my required documents to her for processing of the contract. We agreed that she would work for me, and I would employ her, and that both sides should stop searching any further. The helper wanted to do the processing herself, and promised to do so as quickly as possible.
After more than a week and numerous excuses, that helper had still not even taken the first step of providing the contract and supporting documents to the Philippine Consulate, in spite of my daily telephone contact with her. Every time I questioned her delay, she had a different excuse, but every time she assured me she intended to work for me, and promised to go to the Consulate to start processing the contract within a day or two.
Finally, in frustration, I asked a colleague at my office to call that helper and pose as a potential employer and try to interview her over the telephone in order to test her. Of course I was hoping the helper would immediately inform my colleague that she had already signed with someone, and was no longer available. However, much to my disgust and dismay, the helper stated she had not found an employer yet, and proceeded with the interview. (Incidentally, the details she gave my colleague in that interview contradicted several details she had given me in my interviews with her regarding her experience and skills.)
As soon as I discovered how sneaky and untrustworthy that helper was, I contacted her and informed her that I would no longer be willing to proceed with employing her, and I also contacted the Philippine Consulate and HK Immigration and informed them of the same.
A friend remembered seeing this rather helpful thread from a while back and directed me to it when I was sharing the details of my recent ordeal with her. If only I had come across it earlier... it would have saved me considerable trouble and stress. It seems this tactic is an old and well used trick for some helpers.
Needless to say, I fully agree with the OP. Employers acting in good faith should beware of this unscrupulous tactic being used by some dishonest and untrustworthy helpers on this website.
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