Posted by
Bob!
16 yrs ago
We have been well and truly burned by our first and last experience with a filippina helper. I do realise the are not all tarred with the same brush but our family has been put through so much anguish with a year and a half of legal wrangles that I am not prepared to go there again. The law took her side and she ultimately won her case based on false emotive allegations. The hellish experience cost us dearly in many ways to the point where we wanted to leave HK. I would hate for anyone to go through what our family has been subjected to.
Anyone got any bright ideas on how to hire a local (or other nationality) helper on a regular part time basis. Have placed three ads on A Xpat but keep getting unsuitable replies. Would rather not use agency such as Sparkle or Merry maids. Too expensive and the maids have little or no English. We are willing to pay a salary comparable with that of a full time helper so it would be a good wicket for her.
Anyone done anything similar?? Ta.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Try using our agency service - Evelyn knows which are the best candidates of the hundreds that register with us each month 2815 2520
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Bob!
16 yrs ago
Thanks for that.....sadly the Lab Dept took the side of our scheming lying helper. In a bizarre twist of events we were penalised more than once then banned from hiring a DH FOR TWO YEARS!!! Unfortunately HK often sides with the 'poor abused' DH. Employers frequently get a rough deal. So was hoping to avoid the LD and hire someone directly myself. Would certainly draw up a contract tho and run it by our solicitor.
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Would you like to give us any details of what happened?
"Unfortunately HK often sides with the 'poor abused' DH. Employers frequently get a rough deal."
The law is overwhelmingly in favor of employers. Employers can terminate a helper for pretty much anything. The verbiage is pretty fuzzy in my opinion.
"an employer may immediately terminate a helper who:
- wilfully disobeys a lawful and reasonable order;
- misconducts himself/herself, such conduct being inconsistent with the due and faithful discharge of his/her duties;
- is guilty of fraud or dishonesty;
- is habitually neglectful in his/her duties; or
- has caused the employer, on any other ground, to be entitled to terminate the contract without notice at common law."
While there are cases, like yours, where the employer gets the raw deal, it is far more common for the helper to be the abused party.
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Bob!
16 yrs ago
Details........ I would obviously have to precis. We are talking about case that went on for close to a year and a half so you can imagine all the hideous ins and outs. An absolutely unfair distorted case that saw us go through the Lab Court, Civil court and end in the Criminal Court. We were forced to hire a solicitor then a barrister at huge expense notwithstanding more than one fine to the ex maid and Lab Dept. The case took a bizarre twist when the solicitor we were using through either neglect or stupidity did not inform us of vital information that saw the case drag on for more months with more legal fees!!!!
'Fuzzy verbiage' comes about where there is a summary dismissal and a pregnancy. I will try and give details when I get a spare moment. I have two small children and have been denied a maid. What I CAN tell you is once a maid becomes pregnant they are UNTOUCHABLE. Which is fine if they are honest and upstanding. Ours decided to use it for her financial gain. She decided not to pay us back a huge sum of money we gave her for her 'dying mother' she didnt show up for work and when she did she did nothing. She verbally abused me and needled me in my own home and put my two babies at risk safety-wise and health-wise. These are but a few of her nasty tricks. We were TOTALLY within our rights to summarily dismiss her. Sadly, like I said, the law backs these girls. Some of them work the system to SCREW you over and suck as much cash out of you as they can. It comes down to word against word. Our barrister told us the hk gov likes to be seen to be doing the 'right thing.' Who knows!!! In our case we came off second best and are still paying for it.
I hope no-one has to go through what my family has been put through by a lying devious helper. She certainly gives filippinas a bad rep.
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"What I CAN tell you is once a maid becomes pregnant they are UNTOUCHABLE. "
Quite true. A pregnant helper is often an employer's worst nightmare.
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Sad Sack, that wasn't quite what I meant. There's nothing wrong with an employee being pregnant per se, but helpers are notorious for milking the situation. Given the big impact helpers have on family life, it can turn out to be a difficult situation for the employer.
If a helper is pregnant and keeps working like most other employees would, there are no big issues. But there are cases where pregnant helpers sit around and do nothing, secure in the knowledge they cannot get fired. Many of those hope to get paid off. It's thinly veiled blackmail.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Sacks comments deleted - in violation of UN Rule 721 - subsection C - article 7 iiiiiii -paragraph 4 - 3rd sentence which states:
Though shalt not post sarcastic comments on the AsiaXPAT website. Persistent abuse will result in economic sanctions.
Thanks for following the rules
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OK, in perspective any female employee in HK is protected if they are pregnant and with good reason. Prior to that law pretty much any pregnant woman in any job would be terminated without reason.
You have had a bad experience with one helper. Others of us have Filipina FDH and are more than happy with them. So don't think that you will not have a problem if you hire a person of another nationality.
As axptguy has stated above more often than not the law comes down on the side of the employer. Employers that force their helpers into illegal situations, like working at families house are rarely prosecuted, however the maids who are forced to do this regularly are. Very one sided until a case earlier this year when a judge threw out a case and criticised the police for charging a helper.
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Bob!
16 yrs ago
This is what concerns me about about these threads. People obviously dont read them properly. I clearly stated dh's are NOT all tarred with the same brush. We have had the privilege of some wonderful filippina girls doing various work for us during our many years in HK. I am well aware that ANYONE of ANY nationality is capable of the hell she put us though. Our particular helper happened to be philippino.
I had two reasons for posting my thread. One was to warn families of the very horrible situation that CAN arise if a dh becomes pregnant and decides to use it for dishonest financial gain. It obviously has to handled correctly and legally or else you face serious consequences. The Labour Dept were often not helpful at all when we called because of our unusual situation.
Two. I asked if anyone had successfully hired anyone (without using agencies like Sparkle or Merry Maids)on a part time but on a regular basis paying a salary. As we have been unfairly banned form hiring a dh for 2 years on top of all the fines we have paid we cannot approach the Lab Dept.
I'm sorry my comments were mis-read and misunderstood. I hope you continue to have a successful relationship with your dh.
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After hiring a solicitor and so much money spent, the DH still thumped Bob? He must really be the one on the wrong (in this case) but just can't see it (or accept it).
I can't believe that with the help of a solicitor, an employer can be beaten by a DH in a court case!
Without details, we can't possibly take Bob's side in this case. To me, he appears to be just griping that he was thumped in court. So in disguise of giving a warning, and asking for advice on hiring a local maid, he comes up with this thread to malign albeit in a shrouded way his DH.
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Bob!
16 yrs ago
Though shalt not post sarcastic comments on the AsiaXPAT website
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That's not even sarcastic.
How much did you pay your solicitor and other expenses in pursuing the case? And how much should you have paid (your helper) if you didn't pursue the case? It might not be the money, but the "principle", I know. But you got to come clean here and give us details.
You may have given a warning, and asked for suggestions, but you also dissed this helper so bad.
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mrsl
16 yrs ago
OK, we don't know the details, but I think axptguy's points are valid. There are some DHs who milk the pregnancy protection thing for a payout. So, punter, assuming that the OP's version of events is accurate, perhaps the 'principle' point is important. If every employer automatically defaults to paying out, it makes what was meant to be a valid law into a joke. The biggest shock to me was that you cannot sack a helper except for gross misconduct even BEFORE you know that she is pregnant. I am absolutely in favour of protecting pregnant employees' rights; I was protected by them myself when I was pregnant but the difference s that I continued to work to the best of my abilities.
OP as far as finding a legal live out is concerned; I tried for months via the labour department with absolutely no luck. The only options I found were women on dependent's passes etc. They will cost you significantly more than a FT DH. I think we paid over $8,000 for Mon-Fri 9.30am to 6pm plus extra for any evening babysitting etc.
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mrsl, the OP didn't tell what the case was. He just went straight ahead in saying that he was burnt by a helper. Look at the thread's name and the initial post.
I agree with you. When the helper is pregnant, she should stay working to the best of her abilities. Did the helper in question did this?
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mrsl
16 yrs ago
I'm just as shocked about that IslandHopper. Such laws make no sense and often work against the rights of those they are designed to protect. I'm all in favour of punishing unscrupulous employers who sack someone who's pregnant at the first opportunity, but being prosecuted for sacking someone without knowing that they are pregnant is unjust. Helper, doctor, banker, factory worker; it makes no difference. The problem is that when the law becomes unreasonable and leaves itself open to abuse, it puts many employers off hiring women at all. Especially for those who run small businesses etc. I know nothing about the circumstances of this case, and punter is right; the title of the thread implies that the OP has an axe to grind. This does not alter the fact that some issues still need to be addressed.
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So Mrsl, without knowing the details you will agree with Bob that the law sided with the helper? How would you know that the courts erred?
One can also easily assume that the courts did it's job well and it was really Bob who was on the wrong.
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punter, I think you may have misread her post. Looks to me as if mrsl was agreeing with you (I quote 'punter is right; the title of the thread implies that the OP has an axe to grind') except to say that agreeing a payout to avoid going to court is not necessarily the most constructive way forward. I think she was making a more general point about laws not always being sufficiently well thought out.
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I thought I read Mrsl's answer right.
Mrsl, did you by any chance added or edited your last comment?
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What sort of work are you wanting your replacement part time helper to do? I have had some success with employing babysitters which at least meant my hubbie and I could have an evening off - doesnt help with the housework but .... I have found babysitters thru expat friends - older highschool kids and thru websites like craigslist. for cleaners cant you advertise on your local supermarket notice board or maybe even club noticeboard and see if anyone has a recommend.
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mrsl
16 yrs ago
punter, I cannot even edit my posts for typos, so never changed the wording either (not sure whether it's my computer or my brain that is at fault).
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Bob!
16 yrs ago
Was looking for a 'full time part timer.' ie someone who would come 6 days a week starting after lunch and finishing after dinner. This would give her a chance to work a second job in the morning if thats what she wanted. Her job would include some housework and child-minding. I was thinking maybe a salary of $4k ish a month. We are willing to be flexible so she wouldnt need to come in if we were away.
Supermarket notice-boards seem to be no longer in our new Market Place and P 'n' Shop Intl! They were so useful too.
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