Posted by
Slammy
15 yrs ago
Hi,
We terminated our helper on April 30th.
By law, even if she found another job, she would still need to leave HK on May 14th.
I've been unable to contact her since - her phone still works, but she hasn't answered, nor returned my text messages.
I just texted her and said if she doesn't call, I will go ahead and book her air ticket for May 14th.
So what should I do?
1. Book air ticket and then text her the details.
2. Inform Immigration of what I've done.
3. However - she won't have signed a piece of paper, saying that I provided her with the journey home??
Or, should I forget about booking the air ticket and just inform immigration?
I'm just worried that she'll call on Friday, May 14th and I'll have to pay higher fare because she left the booking to the last minute. That's why I want to book it right now.
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Slammy
If you terminated her on 30th April then you should have given her either the air ticket or money in lieu of the air ticket that day (plus the 100HKD per day travel expenses, and any bus fares in the Philippines). Then it is her issue if she decides to overstay.
If you haven't paid her this yet, I suspect she will have gone to the Labour Department and lodged a complaint, because as long as that is lodged she does not need to leave HK.
I would find out the cost of a flight, asap, call her up and give her money in lieu and get her to sign for it. Then you are done.
It is not your responsibility to see that she actually gets on the flight.
You should have informed immigration within 7 days of termination that she has been terminated. Fax the a letter asap.
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Immigration have already been informed of her termination.
I suspect maybe one reason she's not contacting me is that she borrowed $18,000 and maybe had to hand her passport over as collatoral.
She wouldn't have any reason to approach Labour Dept, but I suppose that's a stalling tactic that someone could use... didn't think about that.
Yes, in hindsight, we should have given her the money right away. Well, that's a lesson learned.
In the meantime, it doesn't help me in my predicament. I can't give her cash right now if she doesn't contact me. I've emailed Immigration asking for advice but who knows how long it will take for them to respond to my email.
So, having emailed Immigration... shall I then not bother to buy an air ticket? And if she calls on May 14th, I'll tell her to come and collect the cash and arrange the ticket herself because it's too late for me to make arrangements?
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Her reason for approaching Labour Dept would of course be that you did not give her her ticket, or money in lieu, on the day she was terminated. But that is by the by.
For what it is worth, I think your approach now should be pretty much as you outlined. Find out a cost for a flight to Philippines (may not necessarily be Manilla, depending on where she lives) from one of the agents in World-wide House (I have used Sally Travel before), then text her to tell her that you have the money for her ticket and travel costs waiting for her to collect, and for her to arrange a time to come and collect it, and sign for it. Then the ball is in her court. If she is short of cash, I bet she will be on your doorstep in next to no time.
That way you are clear in all aspects.
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I think I would inform Immigration of the situation straight away, if she had handed her passport to loan sharks as you suspect, then technically she cannot leave, but would be breaching HK imm rules not going, so possibly liable to arrest.
Quite a tricky one! you don't want her to turn round and accuse you of not giving her a ticket, so ask Imm advice and if neccessary buy a ticket, then at least you have done your bit.
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She couldn't approach Labour Department about not having the air ticket, because on her termination letter which she signed, we wrote down all the money that we had given her and wrote that we will pay for an air ticket for her to return home but not yet given. And she signed it, so she can hardly claim we were trying not to pay her for it!
Thanks for the contact about Sally Travel.
I also thought the same thing - that if I contacted her and told her I'm giving her the cash for the ticket, plus any cash owing from a public hospital appointment she had a few days after termination, that she would contact me! Still waiting though...
Thanks! I know next time to just give everything all at once. It didn't occur to me to do this, actually! I just told her to let me know when she wanted to go home (ie. before May 14th) then let me know and I'll book air ticket.
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Looks like she may be still in Hk trying to find another unsuspecting employer!!, probably telling them a load of bull sh*t about why she was dismissed.but if loan sharks have her passport she won't be able to sign up with another employer? or will she, not sure about that.
If there is a next time maybe go for a different nationality employee, with refs from somebody you can actually speak to who is maybe leaving Hk for good, Good luck.
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"If there is a next time maybe go for a different nationality employee,"
There should be no reason for this. There is a wide spectrum of people within any nationality.
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I agree with you Axptguy38, there is a wide spectrum and there are some good ones within that spectrum, however I would say that out of the small majority of helpers who do go wrong, they are from the same nationality, and they continue to get jobs usually by telling untruths to their next employers, and we keep hearing the same stories on this forum, getting into debt, stealing, doing a runner while on holiday, sneaking back to hk to re offend after a few months, etc etc etc etc etc, Yes you do hear the odd tales about other nationalities, but they are minute in comparison.
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Well my first language is not English, and I have friends of many nationalities who speak English as a second or third or even fourth language, they employ helpers of various nationalities, including Indonesians, Indians, Nepalese who speak good English. I am sure many people who contribute to this forum have the same ability.
I do agree employers who take advantage of their employees are wrong, and should be stopped from having a helper, they don't deserve them. I also wish that bad helpers should be kept out of Hong Kong for good, and not allowed back under any other guise. There are enough honest helpers about looking for work, without the bad ones.
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There's also the fact that out of about 270k helpers in HK over 150k are from The Philippines. Simple numbers means that the majority of the "bad apples" will be from there.
Susie1, I agree that bad helpers should be kept out. However I don't think there's any practical way to enforce that. I mean, sure, if they've been convicted of a crime that's one thing. But just because an employer says that a helper stole or something doesn't mean it is true. Innocent until proven guilty.
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I agree Filapinas are the largest in numbers, but rapidly being caught up by the Indonesians, there was an artical in the SCMP only a few months ago giving the exact latest figures, I wish I had kept it. Indonesians are also the nationality most likely to be abused by employers for some reason also.
The only statistics I can find readily at this hour is on Wikipaedia, which has not been updated since Decmber 2006, when the number was 140.000 Filapinas(1st), 102.100 Indonesians(2nd), plus smaller numbers of other nationalities, according to the artical in SCMP these numbers are changing and now they are much closer. So what I would be intersted to know is the exact percentage of each particular group is the bad apples. Each time a particular nationality of a helper is mentioned on this forum it causes a stir.
So if future employers are looking for a good helper, then they should take into account the numbers of the MOST complained about helpers and look at others who are less likely to cause problems. Simple if you have a 2 or more baskets of apples, you need to dig into them, choose the one with the least rotten ones in, sure there will be more bad ones in some baskets than others. When employers find a helper they should treat her/him with respect, and manage properly, and the sooner all bad employers who treat their helpers badly with low pay, bad work condition/hours are stopped from employing another helper the better, but I am pretty sure that the percentage of employers like this is very low, compared to the good ones.
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"Indonesians are also the nationality most likely to be abused by employers for some reason also."
Probably because on average they have less knowledge that would keep them safe(r). Or so it seems. The community is less experienced and the agencies are more tightly controlled by the Indonesian government. I also have a theory that Indonesians tend to owe more to agencies and thus are less likely to break contracts due to abuse. Employers who pay less than minimum and otherwise abuse their helpers have learned than Indonesians are less likely to complain.
"Each time a particular nationality of a helper is mentioned on this forum it causes a stir."
Well, it should in some cases. For example, saying "Indonesians are better helpers because x, y and z" is not fair since it is a almost always a subjective statement. Your argument, if I understand it correctly, is also flawed. It basically goes like this: If Filipinas have more "bad helpers" percentage-wise than Indonesians one should try to hire Indonesians. Well, this logic might work if you are hiring 1000 people since you will get up into enough numbers for the "bad apple" stats to matter. But if you are hiring only one, "bad apple" stats won't help.
", and the sooner all bad employers who treat their helpers badly with low pay, bad work condition/hours are stopped from employing another helper the better, but I am pretty sure that the percentage of employers like this is very low, compared to the good ones."
Unfortunately the stats don't bear this out. According to HK Human Rights Watch, 25% of helpers have been underpaid and 25% have been verbally or physically abused. "Bad" employers are plentiful.
Heck, I know of people whose helpers work every Sunday morning for no extra pay. That's abuse right there. But the employers say "she doesn't mind" and the helper probably doesn't want to say anything because she wants to keep the job and is afraid of speaking up. The subservient nature of employment as a helper makes it easy to be an abusive employer even if the employer never intends to be so.
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I think at the end of the day, you can't really make generalisations based on nationality.
By the way, our new Filipino helper is fantastic, so hopefully she is the one that works out for us! Our first Filipino helper was also really lovely and 100% trustworthy to the core, but just not enough baby experience. It's only this second one - also a nice person - but not up to scratch. So we can't say that we should avoid Filipino helpers, and I'm certainly not saying our second one is a bad apple, either.
Anyway, I've finally got in contact with her and she is going to Immigration today to ask for a visa extension. Apparently helpers who've been early terminated can do that?
She wants to borrow our copy of the contract because she says hers is in storage. I think, if we scan a copy to keep, we can "lend" her the contract?
Question: am I, by law, required to write her a reference? (separate to the release letter of course...)
And I'm going to pay her the cash for the airfare - so after that, should be no trouble!
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lace
15 yrs ago
You should not give away your copy of the contract! Get is photocopy of it and give it to her.
You are not required to write a reference letter - but it would be the appropriate thing to do. Do yourself and any future employer a favour and write an honest one..
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I didn't write her a reference. If I write a bad one, she probably wouldn't use it, so what's the point?
I think, given that her first reference was not that flash, and the fact her second employer - us - didn't even provide one - speaks volumes!
In the end, we copied the contract and then gave her our copy so she could request a visa extension from Immigration. It just seemed a bit mean to say no, especially when I couldn't think of any reason why we would need to keep an original copy. She said she would post it back... well, let's see if that happens...
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Puti
15 yrs ago
My understanding of the law, is that the only way she will be granted a visa extension is if she takes you to the labour court.
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Hi Puti,
She was granted a visa extension by Immigration - but only given an extra 2 days. I think for those helpers who are terminated, they can ask for a little extra time to find another job.
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