Posted by
smookie
14 yrs ago
My Fillipino was gentle when I employed her and generally gave a very good impression at the interview. Her references was not possible as her previous employer passed away and the one before immigrated. She has been in HK for a few years though so with my own business and a small dog I took the risk as an opportunity.....
I dread the decision I made only 3 months into the contract. She is moody, loves walking away while being spoken to, shops and buys for the home what she wants and not what is needed (soap dishes and baskets instead of detergent) and makes my life 'hell' with her attitude, grumping and shouting. I am woken up early every weekend when I attempt to sleep in and get rest by the maid clearing out the lounge outside my bedroom door!!
What are my rights as an employer? I recorded a conversation tonight where she is screaming at me while I am asking a simple question. I am dreading coming to my own home after work!
What are my rights as an empoloyer??
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sorry but you are stupid. lay her off already! what are you waiting for?
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You are well within your rights to terminate her for cause. However for simplicity I would give her one month's salary. Less potential mess.
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For the record, the law states that:
"You may summarily dismiss your FDH without prior notice or payment in lieu of
notice if your FDH, in relation to his/her employment, wilfully disobeys a lawful
and reasonable order; misconducts himself/herself; is guilty of fraud or
dishonesty; or is habitually neglectful of duties. However, you should note that
summary dismissal is a serious disciplinary action. It only applies to cases
where your FDH has committed very serious misconduct or fails to
improve after repeated warnings. In case of dispute or your FDH lodge a
claim, whether a summary dismissal is justified should be decided by the
court."
Full text here on page 9 http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/PointToNotesForEmployersOnEmployment%28FDH%29.pdf
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I think this helper may have lied about her previous employers, they probably sacked her for bad attitude.
http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/FDHguide.pdf
somewhere on this link you will find termination of helper section, it will give you guidlines, but have a witness present if you terminate, and get her to sign for everything, she sounds like she has a bit of a temper.
If you choose to have another helper, double check the references, don't hire in haste.
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If she lied about her references or not is a bit academic. Some helpers are great for some people and terrible for others.
References have their place, but I don't think their importance should be exaggerated. Maybe the previous employer is nothing like you so their impression is not that good an indicator. A good interview impression is far more important.
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on second thoughts, one reason for her behavior could be that she actually wants to be laid off but is waiting for the employer to do so and paying her in lieu
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cookie09 is correct in her comment. It is probably very likely that this DH wants to quit, but is behaving like this in order to get a one month's salary in lieu of one month's notice. This is a VERY common practice and can be seen especially when an otherwise helpful, polite and hard-working girl either has found a job in Canada, located a new and better position or has family problems that require attention or more money.
If they quit, then no extra monet, if they get fired they get one month's salary according to the law. Sad but true
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>hkwatcher - then the simple way out is give her 1 months notice now in lieu of one month's salary...if the OP can suffer through it for another month that is.
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Whatever reason the helper has in acting as she does now, any employer would just fire her.
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Yes give the notice immediately, that will give the DH the message that her behavior is not tolerated. Many employers are fearful that this kind of girl will break things on purpose and mess up their house because of the anger. Our neighbor's DH poured oil into the liquid detergent and really messed up the house by breaking many things. Too sad....
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I would let her go - but I work a really long day building my business and she knows that. Home alone and do what she wants. Her temper is bad... and getting worse. Please advise if anypone has guidance on the link posted by axptguy 38 :
" NOTE
�� You may summarily dismiss your FDH without prior notice or payment in lieu of
notice if your FDH, in relation to his/her employment, wilfully disobeys a lawful
and reasonable order; misconducts himself/herself; is guilty of fraud or
dishonesty; or is habitually neglectful of duties. However, you should note that
summary dismissal is a serious disciplinary action. It only applies to cases
where your FDH has committed very serious misconduct or fails to
improve after repeated warnings. In case of dispute or your FDH lodge a
claim, whether a summary dismissal is justified should be decided by the
court."
I wrote her 2 letters opf warning that she refused to sign over the last month for direct insubordination.
I would appreciate some help. It has to stop somewhere - ....
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Get a friend (maybe a large male?) to come to your place to be a witness and give you some support, inform her that she is terminated as of right now, she must return any keys to you and to pack her bags immediately. Have a letter ready that you have prepared saying that she is being dismissed, and stating that you have paid her cash of one months pay in lieu of any notice she needs to work(cheque is better if she has bank account as it can be traced as proof). There are sample letters online somewhere, maybe even on this asiaxpat website, I know this because we had to terminate a helper last year and did just this. Get her to sign it, if she refuses you document her refusal on the letter with your friends name as a witness. When she is gone change your locks. Send the letter or fax it to immigration. Job done. Good luck!
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IMO this helper does not deserve one month pay in lieu of notice. I would suggest having a cam to record when asking her to sign the warnings. True it would be much simpler to just pay and let her go, but her behavior is enough to dismiss her with no pay. Why not install a cam in your home so when she has one of her outbursts she will be recorded. I have no doubt she is doing this on purpose for the money because she has found "greener" pastures. She wants to make your life with her unbearable so you will just pay her. More and more FDHs are doing this because more often than not, they get away with it.
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Just another thought, since she refuses to sign warnings, maybe a couple of video taped verbal warnings will do?
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jabberwocky has it right. I suppose you are also within your rights to call the police if she continues to refuse, but a large male friend is probably less dramatic.
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I wonder sometimes if some of the 'bad' FDH's do this as a sort of career, providing no reference either because their boss is supposed to have died, or supposedly left the country, then work for somebody, make the employers life hell, so they will be moved on to the next victim. They are making money each time, and get an airticket at least one way, and lots of 'holidays' in between contracts.
They are a bad example for the rest of their fellow 'countrymen-sorry it should be ladies' working very well here, and surely if the Imm office see this sort of pattern of frequent dismissals they should investigate the helper to stop this, and prevent this type of worker from gettiing work in HK.
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I am sure some do it with a sort of plan. However it is worth remembering that they are in the minority.
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Smookie, did you get her from an agency? If so, they are usually pretty uptodate on the legalities. You may want to install that web cam, as someone suggested, as your pet may become victim to mal treatment when you're at work. If she hasn't had her HK PR yet, maybe the Imm Dept can deport her, I think she has 2 weeks to find emploment otherwise it's Adios.
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"If a maid didn't finish her contract, that's a big red flag that something is not right."
Sometimes yes, but often no. Some employers let great helpers go because they are incapable of managing anyone. I had neighbors who went through four helpers in a year. It was pretty clear who was the problem and it wasn't the helpers.
"Also try to hire direct from Philippines too. The advantage being you're picking them & not the other way around and you can train them "your" way. No more bad attitudes."
I disagree. A good helper will be good, whether it is her first contract or her fifth.
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saw your message too late yonon11 - I followed all advice above and the following proceeded to unfold:
a. I woke up yesterday morning and found the pet had not gone for his morning walk and the DH's room was closed. Too scared to evoke another argument early in the morning, I left her in her room and proceeded to: walk the dog, feed the dog, make my own tea and just as I was ready to jump in the shower she appeared and claimed it was her day off. When I advised that she cannot take Thursday off as I have a conference call in the office followed by a business dinner and the pet needs caring for, I was told I Gev her the day off and that she had an appointment. We then proceeded with the most tiring and stressfull conversation with her screaming at me that she is taking the day off as I gave her the day off and me asking when I gave her the day off etc etc. My word against hers, she is FABRIUCATING and making my life hell, I asked her to resign and break contract, she refused.
B. I told her if she leaves without conscent on a day she is claiming as holiday, I will have to ask her not to come back as she is neglecting her duties and leaving on her day off without mutual conscent.
C. She screamed at the top of her voice and left saying she "wont come back"
D. She returned at 21h46 - KNOWING that the agreed time after her day off is 21h30 and she has NEVER complied to that. Her defiance is quite extraordinary!
E. I asked her to pack and sign a letter of dismissal acknowledging her dismissal - she refused
F. I asked her to resign and she refused
G. I paid her the months salary (July) in full, although she neglected her duties on July 29 and left home - she is paid till Sat. Plus all her travelling allowance and airticket etc . The total cheque exceeds HK6000 and asked her to leave. She is GONE with a bang!!!!
H. she insisted on being paid a months notice and I asked to discuss this with the labour department....
I. It would be good in the next few days to test the system and see what rights the employer have. I recorded the revolting way in which I am spoken to last night and I have THREE letters of warning over the last 5 weeks detailing her behaviour and asking her to improve - yet she refused to sigh any.
I recorded a the conversation yesterday am and last night on my iPhone....
I spoke to a new agancy in Central last Saturday to seek advice and I was basically told that employers in HK have NO rights.................... the law is on the side of the helper ALWAYS!. And this is not a Phillippino agancy - it is run by a Chinese lady...... so there we go.
Let's see where justice is in Hong Kong. Please wish me luck.
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Smookie, you will be absolutely fine. You did everything right - three letters and the conversations recorded.
Remember that now you need to send letter to immigration saying you have summarily dismissed her for being habitually neglectful. I'd copy it to the Labour Department as well.
Change the locks.
Better luck with the new one.
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I'll chime in with spurtio and say that you did well.
"I spoke to a new agancy in Central last Saturday to seek advice and I was basically told that employers in HK have NO rights.................... the law is on the side of the helper ALWAYS!"
Completely false. Employers in HK may have fewer rights than their Singaporean counterparts, but they certainly have strong rights. Overwhelmingly, the abuse cases are employer abusing helper (as many as 25% of helpers have been abused), not the other way around.
If the law were always on the side of the helper, you'd see more helpers quitting from their abusive workplaces. That is not happening.
If she refuses to leave and resign you could warn her that you will call the police and have them evict her. Only threaten if you mean it though. But the police will come if you call.
Also you can tell her that if she refuses to resign you will terminate her. Termination would be much worse for her. And good luck to her going to the labour department. As soon as they interview you she's toast.
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congrats! stressful home environments are best avoided and i hope the maid does not give you further problems. someway, somehow, these helpers can and will come back to work in hk/sg/the other countries, so for the good of others, do continue with the follow-up actions!
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smookie, I don't understand why you would tolerate such an attitude. She's taking advantage of you because she managed to push you once.
Understand that you don't have to give any reason at all for terminating her. In fact you should have done that so that she would never be employed again.
If I am in your place I would just thrown her out. If she complain then I would have argued her abusive attitude and that would be ground for termination. I think the worse thing could happen if the law sided with her is that you will pay 1 month salary.
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HELP!!!!!!!!
HELLL continues. ....................
The FDH was released on July 29th - the day she 'broke' contract as she walked out! I have since been summoned to the Labour department as she claims after 5 months that I need to pay her one month in lieu. She broke contract! I have several voice recordings and specifically a recording on the specific day stating - 'if you take the day off today at your own will, you are breaking contract' - we met at the labour department and she insisted on persueing her cliam despite the labour department advising her:
a. that she has no case
b. that the recordings are stacked against her
c. that there are 3 letters of warning stacked against her - and it could be summary dismissal
Please help her as I now received:
a. a summons to appear in court
b. a summons in small cliams court for one month's salary (what a waste of government money!)
I am about to sign a new helper and she is now sabotaging me:
a. when the potential new helper took my dog for a walk - she is telling all how bad I am
b. latest rumour is that I hit her - what outright lie.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I sue her for:
a. defamation of character ?? I never touched her!
b. Can I claim one months salary??
c. Can I get any legal support as an employer?
At the initial labour meeting I was willing to drop charges if she dropped charges. In the meantime she stays in HK and is now making very wild allegations......
What is the rights of the employer
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smookie, i am sorry to say but you continue to be .... why don't you sit down, take a bit of time and start using your brain?
- you have a very good claim against her (recordings, letters, etc.)
- the court has already backed you up verbally
- you have never touched her (why would the courts believe her?)
- you (at least tell us) that you are a good employer. why would your new helper believe her when she can see your 'good' behavior already?
i don't know what charges you have against her, but i hope none. you cannot get anything from her anyway. so forget b), it won't help you.
what you need to do is:
- go to all court meetings and lay down your proof. you have very good proof and she won't have a chance. you will win both cases against her
- after winning them, go to immigration department and have her blacklisted. that will prevent her staying in HK and screwing up the lives of someone else
- find a helper with a backbone who is not intimidated by some random countrywomen telling allegations on the street
again, the reason she is suing you and making allegations is not to screw you, but rather to give her more time to find a new job. else she would have to leave within 14 days.
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xx07
14 yrs ago
Well u have no rights as an employer here. The law is more pro helpers. She is obviously doing all this to be able to stay longer in hk. If u have the time, fight the case and have her blacklisted. If u don't have time, pay her off so that at least she has to leave asap and doesn't get the extra time here she is currently enjoying. Though I hope u do fight and win. Good luck
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"Well u have no rights as an employer here. The law is more pro helpers."
The law may be pro helpers, but the reality is very much pro employers.
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Fixer
14 yrs ago
smookie,
go to court and challenge her case against you, you have a solid case with evidence to back it up.
Seek leagl and hit her with a suit of your own for deformation and whatever you can thorw at her. If she was abused and feels that she's the injured party, then obviously she would have filed a police report. Hearsay or what-i-say-now-to-make-your-life-a-misery doesn't constitute as evidence.
Hell, you may even bakrupt her in the process.
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smookie' what are you doing? hey' dont waste your precious time...charge everything to expirience and leave with peace. :))
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