Posted by
isonoawabi
14 yrs ago
My child, 9, goes to bed at 10. Is it unreasonable if I asked our helper to put him to bed before she goes off to sleep herself? She has to be up at 6am to prepare his lunch for school. However, she can and does nap in the afternoon before he comes home. I work a demanding job and is oftern knackered by the time I get home. If she could help me put the child in bed I can have a bath and rest early, I know bedtime is a good bonding time but I'm just too tired sometimes and wish she could help me out.
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It depends. I would say that it is unreasonable to expect this every single night. If it is only a couple of nights a week, it should be fine. Also she should be well compensated over all and be is ok with the arrangement. Most employees are fine with working more if they are paid more and/or compensated in other ways.
On a somewhat related note, 10 is pretty late for a child of that age so one option is to simply move bedtime to 8:30 or 9.
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i don't think it's necessarily unreasonable as long as her overall working hours during one day are reasonable.
right or wrong, i would also venture that 90% of helpers in hong kong have to do such working hours
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"right or wrong, i would also venture that 90% of helpers in hong kong have to do such working hours"
So? Just because 90% of helpers in HK work such hours doesn't make it right.
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Not unreasonable, I think. Isonawabi only has a 9 year old son. He goes to school all day. She works all day. Helper is alone most of the day. Isonowabi has a stressful job. So what help will she need most from a helper? The help she needs is AFTER she comes home from work. Given that her son sleeps at 10pm, I can only assume that Isonawabi comes home late from work also. She probably has to spend her nights teaching him as well. I think it is reasonable to ask for help if helper is home alone all day the next day and the next and the next anyway with only housework and grocery shopping to do. Isonawabi has also mentioned that she allows her helper to nap before her son comes home. I believe most helpers who are alone during the day do get this chance to rest/nap. I believe most know when to stop and rest if they need.
If the helper has to look after a baby/toddler as well, then the night help is unreasonable.
It's just a matter of compromise. Every situation's different.
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Agreed with cara (quelle surprise). The kid is nine years old. How much assistance does he need. And again, 10pm is too late a bedtime by far given when school starts.
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Agree with cara. It would be unreasonable to ask the helper to stay up late to put the kid to bed and wake up at 6 am. The helper could put the kid to bed and the OP could wake up at 6 to make the lunch.
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I don't have a 9 year old (my kid is younger) but I'm a working mother also. I agree that a 9 year old shouldn't need much help so I don't think Isonawabi's helper is expected to do much for him at nights? Maybe what Isonowabi meant was for her helper to just prepare his dinner and remind him to get himself ready for bed at 10pm with the lights off? Knowing what children are like, even teenagers, I'm sure if you don't say anything, they'd be playing computer games until midnight.
A helper going to bed at 10pm and getting up at 6am + an afternoon nap given is more than 8 hours of sleep, right? Plus her helper getting up at 6am could be due to Isonawabi living too far away from school and the school bus comes early. If her son's school was just around the corner, I doubt she'll have to get up so early. It's just different with every household and it may not be long before we have to face the same dilemma. It'll be unfair for us to judge.
My friend's son has just started primary school and I think her son's school bus picks him up at 6.15am. I don't think her son is able to go to bed at 8pm every night simply because of the amount of homework he gets daily. So I can understand why in a HK household, children sleep late. I can only imagine how much more work it is for her helper compared to before. I think it's sad that children sleep so late but this is how things work in HK. I don't think it is a matter of not being able to disclipline the kids, grytch. Most HKers disclipine their kids quite well. I don't think these parents have a choice due to the homework demands from school.
It's a different set of ball game if the mother was a stay at home mum, works part time or has flexible work hours. Sadly, this is not possible in HK and most who fall into this category are expatriates or are very rich where money isn't an issue. If you fall into this category, then yes I can understand where you are coming from - childraising belongs to the mother and the helper only helps with other things.
Isonowabi, another thing you could consider is get your helper to cook extra when she cooks herself lunch. Then she can keep some for your son's lunch the next day. She'll just have to reheat in the morning.
"But of course as some says "You're a helper only and you must obey our rules and need to do your job" LOL..."
grytch, I believe this is how most HK employees feel also when they go to work. LOL.... I believe that some HK employers are mean, but I daresay most are not.
I still stand by my view that different households have different needs and we cannot judge. If there's anything unfair, both sides must try to work it out otherwise the relationship will not work. Expatriates only employ a small number of DHs, the majority are employed by HKers who have their own reasons and I respect that. I understand it more, now that my friends' children have started primary school. I am happy to listen to other people's views also if they differ to mine. I'm not always right, just how I feel now compared to last year.
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Helpers often has to do as told, whether it is unreasonable or not. We have two options : take it or leave. The employer do have options too : Impose it or replace her.
That was a generalization and is always the case, no matter how much we try to be of open mind.
I assume from the OP that this will be extra working time for the helper. However, part of being a good helper is being adaptable. I know this will not be an issue if this has been on the job details prior to the signing of the contract. May I suggest you sit down with her and tell her what you think. I genuinely believe, helpers have it in them(us) to be understanding and we do sympathize with our employers. I could also see a compromise. Do alternate nights, the one who do the nights don't have to do the morning. If mornings can't be compromised, at least the evening could be.
I'm keen to suggest giving her extra days when she goes home on holiday as part of the deal, but I rather it be as a surprise bonus than a sweetener, as it may not be possible when the time comes, and could create unhappy feelings.
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I agree with GemmaW that we are in no position to judge another poster's household - not the reasonableness of the request and certainly not on her parenting ( eg the bed time of her son - on which our opinions have not been sought anyway).
There have been many threads on what are considered reasonable working hours and the only clear consensus is that all households are different with differing demands on the helper and that many people require help at opposite ends of the day. Long days are not per se unreasonable it is a question of what is expected to be done in the course of the day.
As I recall, Cara, you wrote on a previous thread that your helper works long days but that those hours could be justified. Maybe that is also the case here although the demands are different to your own household.
In any case, whether we think the request is reasonable or not, our opinions are irrelevant to resolution of this problem - if the helper resents the request it will not work.
In my experience, helpers love routine and resent change even if the request is "reasonable". The best time to negotiate these things is at the start of the contract and, once the routine is established, it can be an uphill battle to change it.
So the real task ahead of the poster is to persuade the helper to do the work requested. A financial sweetener as suggested above or time off in lieu (an extra day off per month? extra annual leave?) might work, a compromise of say, 3 days a week might work or you could suggest a trial for, say, 1 month, being clear about the time off during the day to make up for the later time at night. You know the helper best, what incentive will it take to get her onside so that you are both happy?
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Even asking the question, 'is it reasonable', implies you know it is not reasonable and you are looking for some form of validation.
The child is your child, never forget this. As a parent we have to do things for our children, no matter how tired we are or how we feel. This is being a parent.
Would you feel okay if your employer (if you have been employed) asked you to work 16 hr days? and receive no extra remuneration for this? It is illegal in most countries yet you expect your helper (your slave) to work like this.
So back to your child..., the child is your child, put your own child to bed, read the child a story, maybe even show some love, and do not pass off this responsibility to someone else.
Never stop being a parent. All you are now is an income provider and someone else is being the true parent. Stop worrying about how you feel and worry about how the child feels.
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"Would you feel okay if your employer (if you have been employed) asked you to work 16 hr days? and receive no extra remuneration for this? It is illegal in most countries yet you expect your helper (your slave) to work like this."
Sorry this is pretty much standard in Hong Kong, regardless for helpers of professionals.
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I feel the point has been missed. This is about a person asking is it reasonable. Simple answer is no.
Just because someone may find it as 'pretty much standard' does not mean it is reasonable.
This form of justification does not answer the question - is it reasonable. This idea that it is 'pretty much standard' is an immature /child-like justification. "Well, all the other children in my class do it, so why can't I?" Surely as adults we have moved past this child-like justification and can understand what is right and wrong, what is reasonable and unreasonable.
I would never ask someone to work 16 hour days. I don't like working like this, so why should I make someone else do this?
Is it reasonable for me to work less hours and make my staff work longer than me? Remember the poster has come home from work - he/she has finished work yet the poster wants the helper to keep working and parent the child.
Is it reasonable to palm off parenting responsibilities? Is it reasonable to ask some to work 16 hours? Answer is no.
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Okay, then for Isonowabi, is it reasonable to set her helper's working hours between 6pm-10pm (that's 4 hours) where she has to help Isonowabi, and then from 6am-10am (that's another 4 hours) making the total 8 hours? I believe this is the time Isonowabi needs her helper most. The helper can then do simple housework in the morning and leave the majority of it on Saturday.
I still don't think Isonowabi's helper will need to do much for a 9 year old apart from reminding him it is his bedtime and he has to get ready for bed.
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The OP should simply ask herself... does she think it would be reasonable as well for her boss to ask her to work from 6 am to 11pm and she gets a nap of an hour in the afternoon? ( 11 pm bec I'm assuming it doesn't just take 10 - 15 minutes to do this otherwise the OP would have no problem doing this on her own no matter how stressful the day has been)
Do you think this would be reasonable isonoawabi?
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cara, not meaning to single you out, okay.. coz it's supposed to be general, but I need to use you as an example, I'm afraid. Hope you don't mind.
You justify your helper's 13 hours of work by saying that her husband is there to help. The reason why you have two is because you have two kids under the age of 6 plus you have a huge house. In Isonawabi's case, she only has a 9 year old and for all we know, she could live in a very small apartment. Most people do live in a crammed up apartment.
I believe that most parents (if they don't work saturdays) also take their kids out on Saturdays without the helper, especially when the kids are 9?
If this is the case, can we say that if your helpers' working hours are "reasonable" -you have 13 hours, then isn't Isonowabi's working hours for her helper reasonable also?
Then for all the additional "perks" that you give her, are these rewards because you value her or because you feel bad that she has to work 13 hours? Most helpers, I am sure, would rather not do the 13 hours, forgo the rewards and have you say, "Stop work at 5pm". Remember when we go on holidays, it is for our own benefit, not the helpers. Helpers will get the same time off in ANY family who go on holidays.
I do think that life is tough for helpers because they have to work long hours with very little pay AND away from their families. I also think life is tough for working mothers who have to endure long hours of work and are not able to be there for their children as much as they would have liked. And I also think life is tough for the kids who can't go to bed early because they have too much homework and have to be brought up by helpers instead of their own parents.
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"Most helpers, I am sure, would rather not do the 13 hours, forgo the rewards and have you say, "Stop work at 5pm""
Many, perhaps most, helpers that I have asked about this would rather work more hours and make more money. However employers should respect if a helper prefers not to work those hours "above and beyond".
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Agree with the above posters that 10pm (whether or not its a habit) is too late for a schoolchild of 9y. my daughter is 10.5years and she has lights out at 8.30pm if school next day and Friday and Saturday, she is allowed lights out at 9pm.
on holiday its different.
if she has a few nights going to bed at 9pm she is grumpy and tired (she wakes at 7am to get ready for school)
Secondly - if you are not doing the night-time chat and put to bed, then bedtime can be earlier to suit your helper.
can't have it both ways.
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I also agree with the above poster, 10pm too late for a child who needs to get up early for school, also as he has been away from his parents all day would benefit from a little family bonding time, chat about his and of course your day, he is big enough to bath himself and brush his teeth properly, so just run the bath for him, let him get on with it, and let your helper clean the bath the next day.
I looked after 3 children of my own and 5 foster children many years ago (8 kids-crazy!!!), no problem, no helpers either, and husband travelling abroad a lot, I'm still alive to tell the tale.
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guys the op was asking about the helper not about the sleeping hours of her /his son. so let's get back on track shall we?
in my opinion - it is not unreasonable because that is the nature of the job assigned to her i.e. to take care of the kid. she is not asked to stay out longer than 10 - just tuck the kid to bed. besides - as you yourself mentioned, although she has to wake up early, she has practically the whole day to herself to catch up on sleep. in my opinion, it is a good compromise.
other helpers are not as lucky to have the whole day to themselves and complain either.
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If it is once or twice a week I would imagine that would be ok. Every night is just unreasonable. How about putting your own child to bed and what about a reading your child a story! and 10pm for a child of 9 years old is far too late so by putting your child to bed earlier you will be able to see to your own child yourself and your child will do better at school and in life in general, so it would be a win win situation. Your child will be a teenager before you know it so make the most of putting them to bed while you can or you may regret it.
Wiz Bang I think we all understood what the op was asking, however in order to answer the question sleeping hours come in to it.
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Ideally, primary school children should go to bed no later than 8.30pm, 8pm is best. To achieve this, children should be getting ready for bed at 7.30pm - this is the time where they have to get changed, brush their teeth, shower and have a story read to them.
However, it really depends on the schools. An 8pm-8.30pm is achievable if children go to international schools but impossible if kids go to a DSS school or a famous school such as La Salle, St Paul's, DGS, DBS, Maryknoll etc. I know an 8 year old Maryknoll student who sleeps at 11pm every night because of the amount of homework she gets.
All parent would love for the kids to sleep early. Not only is it healthier for the kids but it means the parents can have all night to themselves too.
All are victims, right? Helpers who have to stay up because kids have too much homework, kids themselves who can't sleep early because they have too much homework, parents who are pressured into fighting for competitive schools for their kids, society who creates such a pressurised environment for the young etc etc etc. Sad, but this is HK. Nobody enjoys the long hours, not the working mother, the helper or the children.
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Thanks for all the comments.
May I ask employers on this forum what time your helper goes to bed?
Mine does usually around 8:30 to 9, which is the time when I get home. She stays up till I arrive home. I prepare my own dinner - usually a sarnie or a salad and I eat while son chats about his day. His homework is not much but sometimes he needs help. By the time all these rituals are over, it's almost 10.
My helper is used to sleeping early. She said, back in her country, she went to bed before 8. I did ask her to stay up till around 10 on a couple of occasions but I could see that she was really tired, kept yawning, etc so I felt bad about it and thought perhaps I was being unreasonable.
There is not much I can do about my working hours. Sad, indeed.
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I am very surprise that people are discussing such issue in a forum. This kind of issue is a pure family matter. whatever an employer decides for his/her child and helper really depends on the needs of the family. too many opinions of strangers is not helpful at all as every family is different towards their children and helpers.
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"I am very surprise that people are discussing such issue in a forum. Th"
As cara says, OP put the question out on the forum. If OP doesn't want it discussed, don't ask on a forum.
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If you let the average 9-yr old go to sleep at 10pm they will sleep during their lessons at school. Send them to a school with less homework. Or help them with it. Or look through it, see which bits are useful, and then just do the other bits yourself. I am a school teacher and I see countless kids that are barely able to keep their eyes open.
And there is absolutely no way that you can add up bits and pieces of sleep grabbed during the day, make them add up to 8 hours and count that as a good night's sleep. My helper works from 7am to about 8pm, but she has no travel (and her own flat, upstairs, so she never gets disturbed after this time). I have 3 hours+ travel a day and there is no way we can get by with her working less hours. I think it's fair, and she's happy with it. Once a week, maybe less, very rarely more, we ask her to stay until 10. She puts kids to bed, has dinner, watches tv. I am happy that this is a reasonable workload for her. I think she feels the same.
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