Lesbian activities between maids?!

I just moved in with my partner who has a live-in maid as myself. In fact my maid was recommended by his, although the two maids had never met in person before.


On the first day the two met for the first time, my maid didn't sleep in her designated room and bed. Instead the two of them seemed to have spend the night in the backroom behind the kitchen where his maid has her bedroom abd bath with a single bed.


This situation continued since, and the two of them came back on Sun night together, through the back door.


Should I be concerned? My partner and I each have a young child and whilst I don't want to be a nazi employer, I don't want to expose our girls to advanced relationship choices yet. Thanks!

As long as they are as discreet as you describe, I wouldn't worry about it. From your description, it seems that they are careful about it and trying their best not to let it affect the job and your family.


Having said that, relationships "on the job" are frowned upon by many employers since they can so easily affect the actual job. It's all fun and games until an argument or breakup.


You might want to have a chat with them. Make sure to keep it "lighthearted". Have a coffee together or something. BTW don't assume that they are actually having a relationship. You can joke/say that "hypothetically blablabla if you were to have a relationship". It is possible that you might be misreading the whole situation. At this point they might laugh or be embarrassed. See how they react.


- Stress that you're fine with whatever.

- As long as they are discreet with the whatever, especially in front of the kids.

- In case there are cracks in any "hypothetical" relationship, and this affects their work, you may have to let one or both go. So they should have a good think about where they want things to lead, "hypothetically".




Personally, I'm in Cookie09's camp. Nothing wrong with the girls seeing affection between two women. I mean they see it between a man and a woman. As long as they don't go into heavy make-out mode in the kitchen or whatever. Not because it is woman and woman, but because I think that is a bit too much for small kids regardless of gender combination.


However, and now I'm going to somewhat contradict myself, if there is a breakup your girls might be left somewhat confused. So if they're not actually engaged or married, they might want to keep it discreet in the same way that a single mom might not want to bring a guy home to meet the young kids after the second date.

Are they both from the same country? it could be that both are lonely, just want company, someone to talk to before bed/don't want to sleep alone when they can have company. I wouldn't put malice into two maids sharing a room/bed unless you've actually seen them kissing. Holding hands is also common among female friends and is not to be worried about.

I agree that they might just want the company.


However, mike204, why would a same-sex relationship be "malice"? You also seem to be implying that a same-sex relationship is to be worried about.

Thanks Axptguy38 and mike204, interesting and rational insights. I agree that it is too early right now to interpret it as anything, and a lot of confirmed lesbian relationships are largely platonic.

Both maids are married, in their late 30's/early 40's. One of them has three kids to raise. I am not convinced that they'd risk their jobs and families. However it probably will become an issue when our kids are back home and realise that the maids spend the night together in one single bed. As axptguy suggested, I probably should talk to one of them casually about it if that happens.

axptguy,


you're right....malice is not the right word, my bad. What I really meant to say was that two women sharing a bed does not necessarily mean they have a sexually intimate relationship and unless the OP actually sees them being overly affectionate, I wouldn't read much into it.


"Worried"/concerned is something the OP is feeling about the maids' relationship.

Reverie. One thing you can let them know is that even if nothing is happening, the girls might notice that they are sharing a room. They should be prepared to answer that question in a forthright manner without a lot of hemming and hawing. Heck, your kids might ask these things anyway even if there is no evidence of a relationship at all. Kids ask the weirdest things.


mike204, thanks for clarifying. As you say it is important that "sharing bed" does not necessarily mean "having sex".

Axptguy, interestingly, this reminds me of the Oscar winning "Little Miss Sunshine", where Steve Carell played the homo Proust expert uncle. The girl has no problem comprehending the concept that Uncle Frank prefers guys. CONCEPTUALLY. And our kids are considerbly younger than Olive, hence the concern whether the exposure to even the concept is premature. Well, I suppose what doesn't kill one can only make one stronger, and kiddies today are exposed to a lot more than my generation was at the same age. Information will not twist a mind, manipulation and distortion of information will. Anyhow will see how this plays out in a laid back way, thanks.

Do please come back and tell us what happened!

LOL. Madtown, if your name refers to the deep, mad, and secretive dark hole in HK called domestic helper land, you are not too far off. When I first had my daughter I had a helper who was absolutely wonderful and capable. In fact my ex and I were almost grateful that she was so capable she was practically running the house (and us) for two working newbie parents. We never treated her as a helper, she had her own room, ate with us, went out for walks after dinner and usually had Sat half day off too. For a while we were almost like a, as the HK govenment promoted with zest, "harmonious society".


Alas, I suppose all one can go is down hill from the zenith. When my daughter was about six months we found an anonymous letter pushed into our mail box accusing her of having a secret affair with a young man 20 years her junior (she was in her mid 40's, married with two kids in the Philipines of course). AND she had taken her lover to our home, also my daughter to a boarding house to see him.


I'll spare you the sex, lies and video tapes, HK version. In the end I completely lost trust in her despite the fact that I sympathise in general with the domestic helpers who have to leave their men and kids home and live other people's lives in the back room, year in year out. So yeah, is it mad? Of course it is. Is it sad? To some extent. The easier solution is to blame it on the SYSTEM. The more difficult lies deeper in the space of ethics, morality and human nature that I'm too happy not to torture the poor little gray cells with these days as a working mother!

beancurd. Thx for sharing. However you should know that "slept with" in English means "had sex with".



"Unless the other person is wearing a man's clothings, you really would suspect something is going on."


Plenty of lesbians couples both wear "girl" clothes.

Hi madtown, why don't you get a couple helpers?

Beancurd, neither of the ladies we have are explicitly "tomboyish". They are normal, caring, and happy females and the fact both are married and one of them has three kids suggest that at least they don't despise men.


I am not too concerned about whether they indeed are, or will develop a bond that straddles between friendship and amour. And I really don't want to get any sexual image in my head. It really is nobody's business than their own.


What I was concerned about is whether they'd continue doing so to a point where the kids will detect something going on. I have to travel on business quite frequently, and what happened with the previous helper while I wasn't there raised my alertness level. Our kids are already exposed to the fact that man/woman relationships don't always work out and last, I don't want them to have the added confusion that sometimes women don't even want man/woman relationships. Call me a dinosaur, but I'd like to see my girls grow up to be "girly girls" and marry nice handsome men who will be with them for the rest of their lives. It sounds horribly banal and oh so not 21st century, but trust me, sometimes conventional life style is not the bad one.


Having said that, I tend to think these two ladies won't risk their jobs and families because too much is at stake, at least for the one with kids. For now I will just play dumb and blind, what one doesn't know doesn't hurt one.

"Call me a dinosaur, but I'd like to see my girls grow up to be "girly girls" and marry nice handsome men who will be with them for the rest of their lives. It sounds horribly banal and oh so not 21st century, but trust me, sometimes conventional life style is not the bad one. "


This is going off topic a bit but whether they are exposed to homosexual behavior as children or not has no bearing whatsoever on their sexual orientation as adults. Kids can't be "steered" this way. If they become gay or not is not really in the hands of the parents.


For the record, we are not telling our kids about homosexuality until they are quite a bit older. But I have no illusion that I can stop them from becoming homosexual if that's what they will eventually turn out to be.


It's also not a black or white thing. Some people are completely straight or completely gay, while others are somewhere in between, on a sort of sliding scale with completely bisexual in the middle.


I'd be way more worried about exposing them to the stress of a bad breakup than the gender combinations involved.

Kfj, I hope you were not implying that I was prying into the helpers' privacy. In fact if I were so inclined I wouldn't have left them alone and said nothing.


The boundaries of a helper's privacy is somewhat an interesting albeit ambiguous subject. Technically and no matter how good our relationship has evolved over time, I am her/their employer and my house for them is the work place. Now I do provide ththem with accomodation, and that's why I never enter their rooms when they are not present and always knock when they are there, same as they do with mine.


Now is the helper allowed to do whatever she wishes in the accomodation an employer provides? I have a curious sense that this would be similar to am I allowed to sun bathe in my birthday suit on my own balcony, in full view by the neighbours in HK, and even more so, bunk my head off with someone on the balcony? Technically my balcony is part of my private residence hence I should enjoy the privacy to do whatever I wish there. However I would indeed be in full public view which in HK is an offense.


Purely food for thought. I'm interested in different opinions without attitude-and btw I don't think I had ever let out any muffled, hand-over-mouth, chest pounding "oh my god" yet in this thread.

Good points madtown. And yes, of course nurture has bearing, but more on lifestyle choice, not on underlying sexual orientation. That is, a gay person might live as straight but actually prefer the same gender.


I think that by being accepting of any eventual lifestyle choice, the chance of happiness is higher.


"So if I understand you correctly, than all bi-sexual individuals practice bi-sexuality as adults?"


I was unclear. What I meant was that "pure" bisexuals don't care about gender, only about person. Pure straight people only look at the opposite gender and pure gays only look at their own gender.


What they practice is of course another matter. Lots of people practice heterosexuality due to social pressure. If such pressure didn't exist, they might be bi- or gay.

Agreed that there is a spectrum as you say. For example some straight men don't even look at other men, while others can see a good looking man and think he's pretty hot even though they are not attracted enough to have a relationship. The next step would be relatively straight but could "experiment" given the right setting. And so on into bisexual and finally "fully" gay.


I also agree that the environment affects their choice of lifestyle. However I would differentiate between "preference" and "lifestyle".


I think you can only make happy lifestyle choices within a certain "distance" from your preference on the spectrum. Say you are a 350 on your scale, more gay than straight but still in the middle somewhere. Being in a gay relationship would be ok, but being completely straight would be an unhappy choice. But maybe you grew up in an environment very hostile to gay people and so don't "see" the choice that would make you happy.


So in essence: Be tolerant. ;)



BTW We are that family you describe at the end. We don't give a hoot about orientation, but we are reluctant to expose our kids to these things yet. I can't explain it, which is pretty worrying. Maybe if everyone thought like we do, we would be more willing to "reveal" the truth to our kids. Or maybe we still have prejudices despite ourselves. Needs more thought...

I am with cara. "love is love doesn't matter where it's from" as long as there are no perverted acts being committed.

My wife has two siblings who are gay ( one brother and one sister). At gatherings, they bring their respective life partners who are considered family as one would a brother in law or sis in law. There is no inappropriate display of affection. We never tried to hide them from our kids, and they never asked us about this but if they do ask then we will explain it to them. Sometimes awareness of sexuality comes at a very early age, some kids at 12 or younger find out if they are attracted to the same sex/opposite sex and should any of our kids be gay, we wouldn't want them to think or feel the need to hide this from us or be uncomfortable talking to us about this.


It would be hard to "hide" homosexuality from kids nowadays unless you intend to keep them inside the house at all times with no tv

"BTW We are that family you describe at the end. We don't give a hoot about orientation, but we are reluctant to expose our kids to these things yet. I can't explain it, which is pretty worrying. Maybe if everyone thought like we do, we would be more willing to "reveal" the truth to our kids. Or maybe we still have prejudices despite ourselves. Needs more thought..."


Was traveling for work but have been keeping an eye on the discussion. Interesting to see the above and here's my two cents.


There is a reason gay/lesbian life style is referred to as "alternative life style"-because it is not the mainstream. By having a discussion here about whether parents should expose their young children to the alternative, and what attitude we should have toward the alternative, we ARE automatically adopting a mainstream view point albeit subconciously. There has never been any need to "tolerate" and "accept" a heterosexual relationship, and although parents won't go into graphic details, I doubt any parent would have problems explaining to their kids, no matter how small, why a man and a woman are together and later produce little kids like themselves. The discussion here is already based on a hetero-centric perspective, albeit not patronising.


I think this is an issue better left to individuals. If one feels that they have no prejudice toward alternative life choice, congratulations. I hope these people follow what they advocate to the words and be truthful to the fact and what they believe in without evasion or addition, no matter how young their children are.


For myself, personally I am nuetral about gay/lesbian life style. I have friends who are gay/lesbians too and I do believe they can form a strong emotional bond and have a stable relationship as much as any heterosexual couple. Will I accept it if my kids turn out to be gay/lesbian? Of course. Will I be surprised and disappointed initially? Maybe. Will I love them as much? Definitely. Will I, after accepting and loving them despite the fact, secretly wish that they'd be able to have kids the old fashioned way God intended human being to have, instead of having to resort to a surrogate or a lab? You bet.


I hope this is the "more thought" axptguy was referring to, and suspect that this is the mentality of a large percentage of hetero parents. Ever observed a parent complaining about their kids to their mates in a pub? The expert opinion always come from the guy/gal who's not the parent.

"Ever observed a parent complaining about their kids to their mates in a pub? The expert opinion always come from the guy/gal who's not the parent."


Haha so true!

"Ever observed a parent complaining about their kids to their mates in a pub? The expert opinion always come from the guy/gal who's not the parent."


So are after reading many of your posts on the parenting forum I assume you don't have children axptguy38.

Without even a winking smiley that comment comes off as pretty snotty mayo.


For the record I have two kids. I never claimed my opinion was "expert". ;)

So sorry madtown. My mistake. Very rude of me.

Self-righteousness and defensiveness often are like Siamese twins. They are mutually compounding and usually the more self-righteous a person is, the more defensive he/she becomes. At the far end of the spectrum, one starts to imagine attacks so that one can defend one’s self with dignity. The widely adopted term for that is paranoid.


I think the conversation with your daughter happened almost a bit too conveniently last night Cara. If it indeed happened, congratulations, that is the right attitude any parent should have to gently touch upon the gay/lesbian issue to their kids.


But again that is beside the point. Even if your conversation with your daughter indeed happened the touchin way it did, it proves nothing but you are a good mother with no prejuidice against any fellow human being, that has never been called into question in this thread if you manage not to read too much into the "unsaid".


And I think you are logically confused. Read your own post, you managed to put "no one in their right mind would WISH their child to be gay" right after an indignant rhetoric question to the imaginary attackers "do you still think that i hold a deep seated predjudice against gay people?" I don't have the answer. Do you?


Let me clarify for the record, I am not interested in attacking, defending or liasing with anybody in this virtual world other than their views. Let's leave ourselves (and as Madtown suggested, our kids) out of a non personal internet discussion.

Now if I may, I'd like to share some new developments on the little much-ado-about-nothing non issue which seems to have started a whole lot of issues here.


One of the ladies, the one who's married with no kids, sent in her resignition last night.


As said, my partner and I just moved into a more reclusive part of the Island. He was in Happy Valley before where this maid, N, spent the past five years of her employment. She had a rather light work load and quite a lot of free time on hand during the day, and over time had developed a close (mainly female as far as we know) friends circle. Her friends sometimes came to the house to have parties-of course, when we were not there and after approval. Among her friends there is this girl, R, living conveniently next door. Sometimes she stays with her when R's employer was not in town, just to give us some privacy.


We noticed a visibe change in N's attitude and performance since we moved. She wasn't her usual chatty and cheerful self any more and would spent most of her free time either with the other maid, or in her own space. She declined any invitation to have dinner with us, either home or outside.


Then she sent in her resignition last night, citing two reasons. For one, she's "emotionally depressed", and for two, she feels bored and it is inconvenient for her where we live now.


I had no idea what she meant by being "emotionally depressed". Nothing has changed at all in two weeks, nobody has died, nobody shouted at anybody, everybody was busy moving and settling down.


As for two, we are indeed in a less commercially convenient part of the town now, but Central is only 20 mins away by bus.


After she came back from her time off last night, we sat her down for a chat. My partner being the typical male who's not bendy at all, he tried what men usually do--laying out all the facts (you are well paid, you can do whatever during the day and have a lot of free time on hand etc. etc. ) and trying to let the person see his points.


Unfortunately, I have had a lot of experience being a head strong youth myself that it doesn't work well that way. The moment we prove our points right, we will automatically prove the other person wrong. And nobody enjoys being proven wrong.


I tried to rephrase the conversation and asked N what we could possibly do to help the situation and make her feel better.


On this cue my partner offered that we institutionalise her time off and she can go out do whatever she wishes during certain afternoons and evenings when we know there will be no work for her. She can even consider a live-out option if she wishes.


She gave it a minute and said it's still not ideal for her. She's sorry but nothing we could do can change her mind. She went on to tell my partner that he was the best employer, but her mind was made up. She would stay till we found replacement, but she would like to go.


This came as rather surprising and somehow disappointing as one would expect some level of loyalty from someone who has lived with the family, who treated her well, for a number of years. The silver lining is, I've been speculating foolishly about what might have been going on in the back room!


So I asked her whether it was because she had got a new and better offer. The answer was negative. Surprised again, I asked her what she plans to do when she leaves us. The answer is the highlight, and the reason why this story is worth telling here:


She said she'd like to find a new job in the vicinity of Happy Valley.


I'm sorry if this is interpreted as a rude invasion of her (and potentially my own) privacy by recounting this incident here. That is not my intention at all. I'm merely interested in the logical interpretation of facts, and discussions from here. I have no desire to judge this lady or anybody, but without laying out the facts there won't be any discussion.


So what do you gents and ladies make of it? I have a theory which I will share later.

Madtown, the second possibility you suggested certainly may be true. we could have been a less good employer than our righteous minds and her verbal comment led us to believe. Or she simply didn't want to work for us any more for her own reasons. A shared characteristics of FDHs is that they find it difficult to contradict an employer. So yeah, it could be that she doesn't enjoy her time with us as much as we thought she did.


If that is not the case,I'm more interested in hearing views on what could likely be the reason. What you suggested in your "guess" crossed my mind as the most likely scenario, although I didn't imply, and am not sure whether what draws her back to HV is indeed the other maid.


What I can make of the facts I see and hear is this (provided that she didn't lie about why she wants to leave):


- she needs to be near HV, possibly because she needs to see someone in that area on a regular basis;

- that person doesn't have the time flexibility as she has;

- that person can not provide a private and quiet venue to meet-which slightly imply that they may have been meeting in our house while we were not there. Now we have moved, and that person can't come and go as freely from HV, she has to go to HV or the vicinity, but there is no convenient meeting venue.


Of course, there may be all kinds of interpetations, but this is what I can make of it as of now.

Morning everyone.


OK. Since nobody is taking anything personally, let me try to take this one "personally" instead.


I think everybody, myself included needs a mirror.


When my partner tells me I'm the most gorgeous woman in the world, this mirror should tell me that he loves me despite the fact that my skin is starting to lose the suppleness and firmness of youth;


When my kids tell me I'm the coolest person they know, this mirror should tell me the time when they think their pals are the coolest and Mummy should take the back seat eventually will come;


When an expensive suit makes me look slim in the shop, this mirror should tell me that I look slimmer because the expensive cutting hides the five pounds put on since Christmas and oh by the way, the mirror in the shop is leaning against the wall instead of standing straight;


When a business card makes me feel important and on top of a high soap box, this mirror should tell me there are ten thousand worker bees in this building who are exactly the same middle aged, mid career people with the same title, and I am really just 10 seconds away from the ground;


When I start to allow an internet discussion forum massage my ego, this mirror should tell me to get a grip of myself, I'm no better or worse than yester-year, ony older, and hopefully wiser.


Every individual, again myself included, is a splendid gown with all sorts of hidden holes. If I chose to only see holes I might jump out of the window, if I insist on only seeing the splendor I ended up parading in the street naked.


That's why I need this mirror commonly known as reality check. It avoids the danger of me being so blown up by myself I'd fly away like a hot air balloon.

I havent commented on this post even once but after reading it throughout and not taking anyone's side, I do think Cara have taken things very personally and tried to defend herself too much.


I wouldnt understand why a parent would teach their kids or I should say encourage their kids something that is only accepted by 10-20% of the world population (gay relationship) and why not teach them things that most of the people in this world would accept and enourage (man & woman relationship)?


Also, if your siblings were gay, doesnt mean you should accept it and also think you can encourage your kids to follow.


I just dont get it, but I wouldnt let my kids be exposed to things that are not considered so normal (at least to me).


Reverie, totally agree with you worrying about your kids being exposed to and thus accepting gay relationships....

profused, you cannot make someone gay. They are born that way. Maybe some people will experiment but ultimately they will find their own self, either straight or gay.


It's sad at this day and age that you have so little tolerance.


At the end of the day we are all human beings.

KAT8, i totally agree that gay thing comes natural. However, I still believe and accept the natural and normal relationship of a man and a woman. Being modern doesnt mean you will have to accept being gay...if we follow modernity, no one will ever be able to have their own child, people will start relying on surrogates just because naturally its not possible between gays. The creation of human beings will be totally different, kids will no longer have either a mom or a dad since for gays, it can only be either one. I dont see how being modern with this mentality can create a better future for us and our kids, if not worse!

I think profused touched upon an issue that is at the core of the controversy of homosexuality.


From a humanity stand point, all men are created equal and nobody has the right to discriminate against anybody else based on race, gender, age, or sexuality. Personally I accept people with a sexual inclination different from my own and respect them as human beings. The world is filled with people different from us in one way or another, be that in sexuality, religion, political views or even football loyalty. If we allow us to despise people based on differences, our lives will be miserable.


That said from a societal and ethical point of view, homosexuality does create certain issues that push the boundaries of human society and morality. AIDs is one, gay parenthood is another. Now it is not in my right to decide whether gay couples should be allowed to have children via artificial aide or not, and again from a humanity point of view they have every right as a hetero couple.


However, shouldn't they children be entitled to have the right to have a mother and a father as well, instead of two mothers or two fathers? I'm not saying that all children raised in gay marriage and families will be unhappy about the lack of a mainstream family composition, but at some point in their lives they probably would wonder how they were brought into this world, and I whether they would be really thrilled to know mummy loves mummy (or daddy loves daddy) so we had you ordered. Again, that is not saying love is not love. In the end everybody reconciles with reality.


The recent headline that dominated local news is the eldest son of Tycoon Lee Shau Kee of Henderson Land having triplets, all boys, via a surrogate mother. Oh Ok, that's nice to know and congrats Mr. Lee, you finally have three times the heir you dreamed of after your daughter-in-law (married to Mr. Lee Junior No. 2) delivered two girls in a row. But wait a sec. The little known fact is Mr. Lee Junior No. 1, a bachlor in his late 40's and father of the three boys, not only had his sons "ordered" through a professional surrogate company which arranged the surrogate mother, Mr. Lee Junior No. 1 actually didn't use the surrogate mother's eggs.


What this means, is that the three boys will have no mother in the legal sense, and two biological mothers in the biological sense, one who donated the eggs, and one who carried and nurtured them in the womb. From a Lee family point of view, this prevents the biological mother from coming back and find legal loopholes to claim right to the Lee estate, because technically, a surrogate that only rents her womb has no genetic bond with the boys.


I hope the boys are going to feel lucky that they were ordered by the Lee family. After all, the Lee family name makes a lot of difference doesn't it. And I'm sure the Lees will love them to a fault--just as Ricky Martin loves his.

The "creation of human beings" is already different from what it was even fifty years ago, with IVF, surrogates, fertility treatments. It's progress and cannot be stopped. Some day someone will probably invent an artificial womb and in-body pregnancy will become unnecessary. I'm sure lots of people will go for that.


And so what if people use surrogates? Will that make them worse parents? Are parents who adopt worse parents because they can't have their own kids (like gay couples)?


Yes, having parents of only one sex may make it harder for the child, but only because much of society is still uncomfortable with the subject. On the other end, there are plenty of hetero couples who are terrible parents. What is better, a fantastic gay set of parents or an abusive hetero set?


You seem to think that society will dramatically change if we accept gay lifestyles fully. But people who weren't gay before won't suddenly become gay.


Just as you believe it is "natural" and "normal" for a relationship to be "man and woman", I believe that any relationship based on love and respect is "natural" and "normal". What is healthier, an unhappy person in a hetero relationship or a happy person in a group marriage?


Kids need love and nurture when they grow up. If that love and nurture comes from a man and a woman, a man and a man, or several of each doesn't matter. There are countries that accept polygamy. Those kids turn out ok too.


The only reason we have these ideas about "a man and a woman" is because of perceived morality, which is derived from tradition. There is nothing really "natural" about it, if by "natural" you mean derived from our actual physiology and psychology.

Axptguy, I think you are playing with a statistical loophole here (and I have never said having children through gay marriage is ABNORMAL-let's leave that to the law of Nature, last time I checked humans are still mammals).


The centrepiece of your argument seems to be it is better to grow up in a happy gay relationship than an unhappy hetero relationship.


Of course. Same as it is better to grow up in a happy hetero relationship than an unhappy hetero relationship.


Statistically we have the impression that there are more "happy" gay marriages because statistically gay marriages, and gay marriages that "reproduced" are still very few. If that prevailed, and if the human society evolved to a more advanced stage as you predicted, that the majority of the human race is going to be reproduced in a touch-free manner, there WILL be an equal if not more unhappy cases as currently reported in the press.


However this is beside my point. If you read my post more carefully, what I was saying is that reproduction through this channel, gay or straight, pushes ethical and legal boundaries of the society in its current form. If you believe there is no legal, ethical and psycological issues entailed in reproductive options as we discussed, then technically similar issues won't exist to clone humans. In the end even what you predicted will be obsolete-I will just order my clone to be a nusance on earth forever.

Thanks for clarifying Reverie. I think we more or less agree. ;)

I think this is a never ending debate since its very much a personal choice. However I do feel strongly on a fact that if a gay couple have a child who grows up and have no interest in the same sex but rather with the opposite sex, he/she may feel disgusted at some later stage if he/she is not capable of accepting the same sex relationship just like his/her parents. That can prove very hard on the child who has to face the society. This is because the gay couple wanted a child so they had it the other way but it does not mean the child will be happy with the way he was brought to this world and if he's not tolerant to his parents, he will feel miserable with his life.


No matter how much we stand still and convince that all human are equal and thus the gays, there will always be a level of tolerance towards those couples in the soceity. Not sure how it will be after 20 years from now.


I am not against gay couples, I know they are human being just like any other. Please no offence to anyone.

Don't worry for me kfj and thanks for sharing your thoughts. In fact I am having much more fun in the discussion as it is now than the little much-ado-about-nothing that started it. BTW the lady who resigned took back her resignition and decided to stay after her time off was institutionalised. There you go, nothing in life is impossible and die-hard gay gals like Anne Hache could turn into straight later and "pop" a baby with a man.


As I said once and I'll say it again, I'm interested in well articulated and supported arguments. That's partly why people waste their lunch time on an internet discussion forum. I have no personal for or against positions as far as homosexuality is concerned. However I do maintain my point that gay/lesbian couples choosing to have children through artificial aide pushes certain boundaries . Again I won't say it is good or bad to have those boundaries pushed.


So far in the discussion about gay parenthood, the strongest "for" arguments I heard is that gay parents will love their children much better "because the children are SOOOOOO wanted and loved (btw and no pun intended, I read your expression with a knowing smile because you sounded SOOOOOO gay). It is easy to 'pop' out a baby for many straight couples, yet incredibly difficult for any gay/lesbian couple to go through the 'creating a family' process. "


I think this is unfounded. A man and a woman CAN "pop" a babe out, that's just the way Nature intended how babies, of human or other mammals, are supposed to be made. It does not make it easy at all-I personally went through nine months' of carrying another person in my womb and perhaps I have more right to say whether it's easier than having a baby "engineered", although I did enjoy tremendously the process of making them. It certainly can't say anything about whether hetero parents will love their children less than gay parents, that's just nonsense. Statistically there are more hetero parents who abuse their children, simply because statistically there are much more hetero parents. If gay marriage is legal universally, and it becomes much less costly for gay couples to have children through any channel, there WILL be proportionately equal amount of domestic issues in the gay community including child abuse cases. Gay people are people too and they are not void of human weaknesses either, they certainly are no more angelic than anybody else on the street.


I think kfj you were right to say that straight kids do not feel disgusted in their gay/lesbian parents any more than gay kids feel disgusted towards their straight parents. But just as gay kids growing up in a straight family and a predominently hetero world would have experienced gender confusion and at some point, self doubt or even loath (please do not tell me that you admitted to yourself, parents, school teachers and friends at age 12 as proudly as Elle DeGeneres did, "Yup, I am Gay"), I would imagine that straight kids growing up in a homo family would experience the same, albeit reversed gender confusion as they grow up, although I don't have statistics to support it. This argument works both ways, although statistically there ARE more naturally hetero people than homo, sorry guys, that's just how it is as Nature intended.


So let's try come up with a comparason of the potential caveats of growing up in a straight family vs. a gay family.


My kids growing up in my die-hard straight family have already experienced:

-parents separating and coping with splitting time between two families;

-Potentially will have half siblings or even adopted siblings who have no blood tie with them;

-Potentially have identity confusion but learn love is love and love goes beyond blood tie;

-Potentially turn out to be gay and bewilder their parents who will eventually accept and love them the same if not more.


Now if you can prove with evidence that children in gay marriages can be guaranteed that:

- They will NOT experience gay parents separating at all simply because they are oh SOOOOOO gay;

- They will NOT go through the identity confusion process because from day 1 they've been brain washed that love is love and it doesn't matter how one comes into being in this world and this family;

- If they turn out straight, as statistically they will be more inclined to and if they do they will not be influenced by their parents to convert to gay, they will NOT have gender confusion and issues about their own sexuality.


If the above are indeed true as proven by the "numerous sociological studies too numerous to mention" , then I will happily rest my side of the discussion.


Fact is, you can't. All sorts of life choices entail growing pain, that is just what it is. However straight kids growing up in straight families ARE at least void of the pain from sexuality confusion as a gay kid in a straight family or a straight kid in a gay family would experience, and the potential pain from learning that he/she was conceived in a tube (again please do not argue any more that in the future tube babies will be the preferred way unless you yourself had one or are one).


Like I said, I only respect facts, even ugly facts. And facts usually come naked and ugly, on both sides, without rose tint or sugar coating.

" 40% of babies are born to couples out of wedlock. Over 50% of children are raised by single parents"


Madtown, being one of the "40%: /50%" you referred to myself, I have to put a question mark to your statistics. You sure your sample size includes couples outside of Scandinavia?

"What I find hilarious (if it wasn't so sad), is that 40% of babies are born to couples out of wedlock. Over 50% of children are raised by single parents. Yet, it is a problem for a gay/lesbian couple to have a child? If a child is lucky enough in this day and age to have two parents around to care for them.......who cares about gender or sexual orientation.


madtown, very well put (regardless of the percentages).

I used to think these Indonesian tomboys were all lesbians until I stumbled upon a club full of them one Sunday afternoon - and then something that had previously been rumoured to me became blatantly obvious. These were not lesbians, these were just teenage girls hanging out in various styles of hip-hop clothing. A large number of these girls are coming to HK on false passports, often as young as 13, and the agencies in Indonesia are instrumental in facilitating this. So the next time you see a so-called lesbian couple, look more closely, and ask yourself whether these aren't just 14-15 year old teenage girls?