New, single father needs help!!

Hi,

I'm taking custody of my son on November 1st and as I'm from the USA I have no experience with domestic helpers! Please Help!!


But don't post phone numbers and names please. Right in the middle of some wonderful posts my previous thread got removed because Reverie sent a name and phone number. If you have something like that you want to suggest, please PM it.


I'm a contract English teacher and a martial arts instructor so my schedule fluctuates. I am wondering how much is the going rate for part-time helpers or other child-care options. Any suggestions?



As per the previous replies, axpat guy made some excellent points so I'm considering a FDH live-in, but I don't want to give in to the pressure I'm feeling for an 'immediate fix'. Therefore, your suggestions about part-time for the transitional period are also pertinent. My wife has decided that she'd rather be footloose and fancy free so I'm on my own, without any help from her or her family.



Also, I am humbled by the wonderful mothers that have reached out to me to show concern and support for my situation. Coming from a family with four sisters it is extremely comforting. You truely are the fairer sex. Please continue with your posts and helpful suggestions. And please, please don't post names or phone numbers on this public forum but rather as PMs. I don't want to loose this thread again. It's like a lifeline for me. I'm in Tung Chung.


Warm regards

Hi Sensei, sorry for wiping out your previous post. I will send the TC helper's phone number to you by email here. Good luck.

Thanks Reverie,

No worries. You're most kind!

Sensei, just sent the helper's contact to you. Try talk to her, I paid her $60/hour before and it's worth every cent.

I have to say that I'm amazed at your exw-wife's irresponsible choice. It's not uncommon to see marriages broken up and families re-configured these days, but it's still rare to see a mother completely and willingly relinquish custody on a three year old. To that end I support you 100%.

One issue you need to spend time think through, after dealing with the practicality, is how you plan to talk to your son about the lack of a mother presence in his life. I have no idea bout your arrangement with your ex whether she'd be visiting, but the most important thing is not to make him hate his mother, or form a difficult view on the other gender. But of course, these things take time, so don't pressure yourself too much. At three your son will need parental care a lot, so make sure you spend as much time as you can with him.

Please use this section to find part time help http://hongkong.asiaxpat.com/helpers/parttime.asp

Reverie,

There's not a hateful or vindictive bone in my body. I hope my son grows up knowing his mother from his own perspective. As to whether she'll spend time with him...only time will tell. I believe in honesty unless it's hurtful so I'll let him draw his own conclusions as his meta thinking skills develop. The same goes for his perspective of women in general. As for me, I love em and better luck next time. Thanks again for your input.


Ed,

thanks for the tip. I'll check it out.

If you are looking for part-time, live-out child care that is legal, I suggest you call Rent-A-Mum (nanny agency). I have used them before and found them to be really great. The nanny we got was a lady called Edith, she's wonderful, experienced and kind with the children, she is French but her English is fluent. If she's unavailable they will introduce you to another nanny who is legal and qualified/experienced.


In my opinion, if you can afford it, a live-out nanny may be a better option. Bear in mind that a nanny and a maid are completely different, the nanny will provide a better standard of childcare but won't do all your housework (although it is considered OK to ask a nanny to do light child-related tasks such as tidying up the child's toys, ironing the child's clothes, preparing a light snack for the child & washing up his plate + cup - but that's about it, the rest is for you to do).


The big plus is that a nanny would not live in. As for cost, I think this depends on how many hours of childcare you are going to need per week and how much you can afford to spend. Personally, if I could go back in time, I would use a nanny. You don't see a nanny from Rent-A-Mum chatting on her mobile phone instead of tending to her charge, which a lot of FDH do - I can tell you that from observing what goes on when I take my kids to the playground. More than that, you want someone who is really going to be kind to the child, and actually care. Before you hire, I suggest you take your boy to a playground on a weekday afternoon / Saturday and really watch what is going on with eyes wide open - that should teach you what to look for and what to avoid!


If you do end up hiring an FDH, you may find the following interview questions helpful in identifying the right sort of candidate:

"Which is your highest priority - doing the housework or taking care of the child properly?"

"If my child accidentally fell & bumped his head, what would you do?"

"If I had to work on a Saturday & you had to entertain my child for the day, how would you do that?"

&etc etc


Good luck to you!

If I may be devil's advocate for a moment.


"the nanny will provide a better standard of childcare"


Not necessarily. This very much depends on the helper you hire. Of course, the "average nanny" will probably be better than the "average helper". However helpers have other advantages such as doing all that other stuff. Since a helper can do cleaning, groceries and even cooking, this frees you up to have quality time with your kid. Since we hired a helper, the time we can actually spend doing stuff with our kids has increased dramatically.


There is a wide range of FDH, from "Mary Poppins/Supernanny" to terrible. You just have to find the right one.



"The big plus is that a nanny would not live in."


Live-in is not per se a disadvantage. An FDH is by far the most economical option if you go past a few hours a day. Also she is "always there" in case you are unexpectedly away in the evening, which you say you often are.

Whether a FDH or a nanny is 'better' is really a matter of personal preference. Axptguy38's preference is for an FDH, that's what he has now & of course it's great that he's found an option that suits him. Having an FDH also suits many other people in HK, but not everyone, and I think that is sometimes forgotten. When a person is in the position of the OP, they may be inundated with well meant advice to go get an FDH - I've seen this happen loads of times! - without anyone stopping to consider whether that choice will suit him. There is quite a number of people in HK who have had an FDH and found that it wasn't for them and now they don't have one are much happier. For the OP - my understanding of the pros and cons of each option are -


Employing a nanny

Pros - on average a much higher standard of childcare / more professional

- very well able to cope if your child is ill, or in the event of an emergency

- usually either a native English speaker or otherwise fluent in English & if you get a Westerner you'll probably have fewer cultural differences to deal with

- lives out, only works the hours you need

- on average, less 'aggro'

Cons - expensive

- doesn't do much housework


Employing an FDH

Pros - an inexpensive option

- does all the housework & childcare

- for some people the FDH being 'always there' is handy

Cons - live-in arrangement could be awkward for the OP / the loss of privacy is considered a big disadvantage by many

- on average their English is OK but not as good as a nanny's (from Rent-A-Mum)

- a higher risk of aggro

- although many helpers in HK do in fact serve as nannies they are seldom qualified & experienced as such, that's worth bearing in mind

- do you really want sb who earns minimum wage to raise your child?


Lastly- 'Since we hired a helper, the time we can actually spend doing stuff with our kids has increased dramatically.'

That's great for you, axptguy38, but doesn't apply to the OP - he is looking for sb to take care of his son when he is not there.

Good list Snow Rose. Well summarized.


A few points though.


In my personal opinion a big share of the people who have had "issues" with FDHs have unreasonable expectations, are bad managers, or both.


"Lastly- 'Since we hired a helper, the time we can actually spend doing stuff with our kids has increased dramatically.'

That's great for you, axptguy38, but doesn't apply to the OP - he is looking for sb to take care of his son when he is not there."


It very much applies to him. By having someone who does the cleaning, the laundry, the groceries and the cooking, this frees the OP up to be with his kid instead of doing those things during his free time. Being a single dad, he has even less time on his hands since he does not have his wife to share the burden with.



"- do you really want sb who earns minimum wage to raise your child? "


There is no need to pay minimum wage. Many good helpers make much more because they have the skills and experience to command a higher salary. This includes many who are excellent housekeepers and excellent annnies.

I'm thankful for the time and thought both Snow Rose and axptguy38 have put into this debate of nanny versus helper. It is enlightening and helpful. I'm become more educated and better prepared day by day for the decisions that are coming soon. It is comforting and encouraging. I think both of you have valid points and counter points. It's really food for thought. So many of our decisions are based on compromise and balance. I can see these key issues in this discussion. Thank you.

Warm regards

Thanks for the kind words Sensei, and good luck to you.


Whether you choose nanny or helper, the key is finding the right person. Once you do, everything else resolves itself since you will have trust that the tasks you delegate will be performed in a professional manner. The criteria for choosing a nanny or helper aren't really all that different. You want someone responsible who has initiative.

Yes, Cara, if the OP frequently has stuff come up like that then the FDH may be a good option. On the other hand, he has stated that he's a teacher, and many teachers have very regular hours (although of course we cannot know if this the case for this particular guy) so I think it is a question of how much he doesn't want another person living in.


All of the expat parents I know who have no FDH really really don't want someone else in their home and they are willing to do what it takes to avoid that. They don't mind housework that much, they may enjoy cooking & trying new recipes etc, and they feel strongly about not some else raise their kids and about not having a live-in - those are the characteristics of most of the expat parents with no FDH (at least the ones I know). For them it is an informed lifestyle choice that thye've made. Also, these people tend to link up with one another, and provide occasional 'emergency cover' for each other in a reciprocal way.


To the OP - another thing I just thought of, concerning the expense of each option, is that for a FDH you pay her monthly including during the long holidays, when you as a teacher may be off work and not need her (few FDH will accept long periods of unpaid leave). But if you have a nanny you only pay for the hours / weeks you need, so if you can take care of your boy over the summer & Xmas hols you can choose not to employ the nanny for those weeks.

madtown, why do you always imply that people with an FDH don't make their child the first priority? Quite frankly I think our kids have a better quality of life because of our helper. Also, as mentioned before, having an FDH typically means MORE time with the kids.

I think either way has pros and cons. Your child at some point may feel abandoned by his mother and feeling fobbed off onto a helper could exacerbate the problem however with an fdh if something did come up you have back up in place. Although having your shoping done and meals prepared for you would free up your time for other things, having your child help you shop, cook and wash up can also be quality time and constructive for the childs development. Quality time doesn't always have to be child indulgent time and not all kids without an fdh in the family lack quality time. Why not try a part timer first and if that doesn't work out try an fdh. I agree with snow rose that other parents without an fdh are often more than willing to help out in a bind. For the record I am a stay home mum of a 2 parent family who went form having an fdh to having a part timer to flying solo. For my family flying solo is working the best so far.


amendment: when we lived my home country, Australia, I was a working mum and we had a live in au pair who was a godsend at the time

These are all well meant advices, butI don't think some of the people here fully grasp what it entails to be a parent, let alone a single parent.


It is less so with a man, but for a woman, the natural first question one needs to answer the minute one becomes a mother is, do I want to continue working, or do I want to stay home.


I am of the opinion, being a mother and a single one until recently, that the best person to raise a child is a full time mum, at least when the child is very young and in his formative years. Short of that a full time parent on either side is good. If that is out of the question, then a full time, and long term care taker is essential. Children need and love stability and routines, especially small children-they need to know when to feed, when to sleep, when and who they can expect what from. Having a full time, living-in maid, short of a full time parent or family member is a good substitute as it helps the child eliminate anxiety coming from unpredicability, and form and understand the routine in his life. Boundaries are very important in helping a child grow and interact with the outside world, frquent changes in people and environment are not.


Both myself and my partner were single parents before we met. In both cases we were lucky enough to have the grandparent option until a full time helper took over. Kids have an amazing ability to adapt-as long as the changes are not abrupt and too frequent. Both our children are now coping well with the "spliting time between two parents who both love her but are not together". Being divorced or separated with children is not the end of the world or your social life. It certainly is not the most ideal for your child, but as long as all parties tried their best to be rational, mature, loving and protective, especially toward the child, it's much better than a child growing up in a family where parents constantly fought or had relationship problems. The key is to build a routine even as separated/divorced parents so that the child knows what to expect.


What CAN be more damaging than having parents separated, is separated parents induldging themselves in self pity, becoming irresponsible, and constantly changing care taker and environment. To that extent I support having a full time helper. This is not a debate on paper, this is about the pysological impact on a small child.


Sensei, you are welcome to send me emails in private if you wish to share experiences and views. I was in your shoes not too long ago. It's not easy to be a parent, difficult to be a working parent, extra difficult to be a working single parent. It will pose a significant pressure on your time and social life, but it shouldn't have similar pressure on your self esteem and prospect to find love again. Good luck.

And as to the "do you think someone earning minimum wage is good to raise your child" comment, I beg to differ. What small children need is love and security, ideally from parents most of the time, but in today's environment a luxury. It's not uncommon to see an FDH who has formed a strong emotional bond loving the child almost the same as the parents, and a lot of these ladies have degrees back in the Philipines. They may speak less than perfect English, but they are often happier and more caring than a lot of people in HK. What a parent needs to do is to establish boundaries in the absence of the parent and have the helper agree on them explicitly, i.e. child's food, play time, what is permitted and what is not, manners as the child grows older. What the child gets from the parent in terms of discpline, he/she will get the same from the helper. I'm not sure an organisation like rent-a-mummy (an awfully tacky name in my opinion by the way) can assign the same nanny to a parent, and even if so the parent can establish the same kind of bond and understanding with her about the child.

"It's not uncommon to see an FDH who has formed a strong emotional bond loving the child almost the same as the parents,"


Definitely true. Our helpers (married couple) have more or less "adopted" our kids. Certainly everyone involved including the kids understand that the helpers are different from mummy and daddy, but it is good for them to feel love and affection regardless of the origin.


We trust our helpers to foster according to our philosophy. It works very well.

There is so much excellent dialog here. Thanks. This is where I am right now. I'm going to stick with my original plan with a few modifications based on the informative posts so far.


I'm going to start with a part-time helper. I may try the nanny option if I can afford it on a part-time, contract teacher's pay. My karate school is starting to take off so there's some money coming in there too. In addition, a wonderful stay at home mother in Tung Chung has offered to help me in a bind if my part time helper/nanny can't make it for a pick up at kindergarten. I can't say enough how much this wonderful, thoughtful person's offer of help has eased my worries. (Thank you C!!)


I'll take my son to my karate classes after kindergarten on Tuesdays and Thursdays when I teach in Tung Chung so I won't need a helper then. (I stay home and write on those days) I do all my own cooking (thanks mom for teaching me) so we'll mostly eat in with an occasional excursion to Discovery Bay for beach time and dinner at a restaurant.


So Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays I'll have the part-timer/nanny pick him up from school and wait at my home with appropriate, assigned tasks such as preparing his dinner, structured activities etc. (They won't cook for me. I do that myself with joy and vigor.) This will only be a few hours each day so it makes sense economically.


I'm considering sacrificing my Saturday contract at a teaching centre and just teach karate that day in order to have more time with my boy.


I'm going to try and keep his mother involved as much as possible and give her as much access within reason so that our son still feels like he has a mother. We'll see how that goes as her plans entail working full time and we all know the long hours of the Hong Kong work day. I wish her luck in her endeavors.


After a trail period of a few months with these new arrangements I'll re-evaluate to determine if I continue with part-time help, a FDH or even some kind of net-working after school play group scenario.


As I said, this is where I am now. All of your input has been invaluable. If you have more to add please do as I will continue to check this thread as my plans progress. I'm certain I will have to modify and change elements as I go. The only thing that stays the same is change.

Warm regards

"I would move home before having a stranger live in my house and raise my child. That is just me."


If a helper is still a stranger after the first week, something is wrong. Also she should not be raising the child as a replacement for the parents. A helper should be a proxy for the parents and should apply their values and parenting ideals.

Depends on the helper.

Cara, I think one is being judgemental the minute one applies the word "judgemental" on a fellow human being. From what I can read, madtown was merely expressing his views. Now you can agree or disagree with is views, but you don't have to put a label on him. Whether he has any prior experience in live-in maids does not prevent him from forming an opinion about maids-it just makes his opinion potentially biased. You can point out the flaw in his reasoning, but whether he's judgemental in arriving at this conclusion or not is beside the point.


Madtown, interestingly and if I read your post correctly, you were contradicting yourself in the same post:


"I am not opposed to getting help, as raising a child is difficult and we all need help. I would just prefer that the help I got was in a more temperary form or in the family form (grandparents) "


" I grew up in a fiercely independent part of the US with fiercely independent parents. We not only fed ourselves, we grew our own food....get the picture. "


If I were to believe both were true, then the only possible conclusion is you believe your almost religious persistence on "independence" is condition upon people--if help comes from a live-in helper, then it undermines your independence. If help comes from a grandparent, or a paid help or some sort (could still be a FDH) but she doesn't live in, then your independence is intact and unscathed in your mind. Please correct me if I am having logic blind spots but I fail to comprehend the reasoning behind this.

Madtown, it seems that what you are advocating is not "total independence" based on the above explanation then. What you are stressing is what's commonly referred to as "the inner ring". To you there is only a small core of people you trust and allow yourself to be dependent on, outside of this circle of "my people" it seems the rest is deemed as an intrusion, hence a deprivation of your independence.


I am with you on the opinion that children are better raised by family as I expressed in my earlier post. In my personal view the hierarchy of preference as far as raising a child is concerned, is mothers, fathers, grandparents, other family members, long term care taker in descending order.


Human society evolved for thousands of years to arrive at the universally adopted framework we see today: generally one man and one woman form the smallest unit of human society, and they produce and nurture the next generation of the society. I am not a gay basher (as discussed in my own thread), nor a suppresser of feminine rights. However there is a reason why human societies, after thousands of years of evolution, stablised on certain core values and the framework we see today--because it has the widest appeal and conformity to nature's order and the need for human society to remain legal and stable.


Having said that, in today's world we all learn to cope with all sorts of situations that are imperfect, or boundary pushing. Children produced through same sex relationships may or may not face identity issues, but there is no guarantee that children from a heterosexual marriage may not; a guy with several wives may maintain a more cohesive family environment than a one-on-one marriage (think Stanley Ho), but a less prominent (read loaded) individual may get himself arrested; babies who spend more time with stay home mums may end up being a complete wanker, as opposed to orphans who had absolutely no family around them in their entire formative years and turned out to be pillars of the society.


All I'm saying, is that there are as many ways that life can be lived as there are people. And there is no absolute winning formula, or absolute right or wrong. It is technically impossible for a single parent with no grandparental help available not to resort to a hired help, and a three year old does have psycological and emotional needs better served by a stable care taker than constantly changing sitters.

madtown, as I said before, if a helper is a stranger for very long, that's not a good thing.


Reverie, I would much much rather delegate to our helper than to my parents or in-laws. I love my parents and in-laws, but I think we have great differences in our views on childcare. Our helper's job is to foster the way we want. Grandparents can't be "channeled" in the same way.



"a three year old does have psycological and emotional needs better served by a stable care taker than constantly changing sitters."


Amen. Personally, I would much rather have our helper take care of the kids when we're not home than a baby-sitter. We know our helper much better than we would a babysitter.

Fair point.

axptguy, I don't fully disagree with you on the grandparent/in-law comment. I for one have difficulty living under the same roof with my mother, and it was a disaster when a helper was introduced into the picture later.


I think the main issue is that a household often can only have one ultimate decision maker (same effect as the old saying that there can only be one woman in the kitchen). Unfortunately, my mother, after having managed her family which previously consisted of my father and myself (who managed to escape from her evil paws as early as I could), had problems comprehending that I am, and should be, the ultimate decision maker in my household, consisting of my child and the helper. She was there as an added help, not as a manager. When you have two strong willed women under the same roof, whose opinions can differ considerably as to how to raise a child, it often results in clashes.


Having said that and on looking back, I do realise that having my mother around during the most difficult period not only helped my daughter build a strong bond with her, felt loved and secure, it also helped me take a step back and reassess my relationship with my mother.


By contrast, a helper will almost always obey orders the parents give, but they indeed are not incentivised the same way as grandparents are to take initiatives and be self sacrificing if needed. That's just the reality of it, almost no hired help will treat the child as selfishly as the parent or grandparent, but some of them, after long service will have almost the same affection for the child. At the end of the day it's all about managing expectations-your own mostly. If one keeps tormenting him or herself about working vs. stay home, helper vs. grandparent, your life will just be dominated by guilt than a sense of achievement at work, and true happiness when you manage to have some time with your child.


madtown, I agree with your observation that not many FDH will become a stable, long term quasi family member. Again having employed four in my life and interviewed dozens, I probably have more experience with them than you do. The majority of the FDHs in HK have served at least one contract, which is two years. My impression is that the average length of service is between 2 and 5 years, because a lot of HK families terminate their maids without material reason simply because they don't want to pay the long term service salary by year 6.


As to the how long an employer remains in touch with the helper question, I think this is more of a personality issue. Some men will always hold the lift door and let women go in/out first. There are more who rush in and completely ignore others in HK. I personally would like to maintain contact with the women who, in my absence, spent a lot of time with my daughter, but they may not be so inclined emotionally. This should not form a ligitimate argument for or against having a helper.


I think the sitter you were referring is not entirely the same we are talking about here. Your sitter is more like the stay home mum that Sensei found in his neighbourhood-a neighbour whom you know and trust to some extent. This is also a not bad option especially to people who protect their privacy like their eyes.


Finally, I am genuinely curious about whether you are actually a parent madtown. Anybody who has had a child should resonate reasonably with what I meant by a three-year old's psycological and emotional needs, I'm not even talking about the ten changes of clothes and five snacks of fruits and cakes a day yet.

Madtown, as said, I think this is not a debate on paper and I don't want to argue purely for argument's sake. Babysitters or live-in helpers, the ultimate purpose they should serve is to provide a small child with a sense of continuity and security if not the same amount of love and correct upbringing. I can't count with both hands and feet how many times I have marveled at the manner, or lack of it, demonstrated by children who have full attention and carefrom their parents most of the time. If someone has had a favourable experience with a sitter, congrats. If someone has had bad experience with a live-in helper, that doesn't mean that all helpers will turn out to be nasty.


With regard to this issue, let me say it for the last time for the record that I wasn't just implying, I was stating that I am not convinced that a sitter who drops by two or three hours to "sit" on the child knows about the child enough to provide the same sense of continuity and security--she may be struggling to find where everything is and what the child's favourite cartoon character is for some time. I'd rather have a live-in maid if an outside help is necessary. If I may coin you in your earlier post--we disagree. But it doesn't necessarily make you or me more right, because we both can only manage to see facts that our eyes show us no matter how smart we'd like to believe we are, ce la vie.