Posted by
Asterix99
14 yrs ago
Basically my DH has been sneaking into my room and taking money from my wallet when she thinks I haven't been paying attention (eg: the morning after a night out in Lan Kwai Fong!). I started noticing it a while ago but wasn't sure, however I'm now 100% sure.
My question is: How do I sack her without putting myself at risk from a tribunal? I want to catch her red handed but the liklihood of that happening is so low, and as you can imagine I can't stand living with a thief.
Any advice on my options would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers.
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just lay her off by paying one month in lieu.
alternatively, secretively mark your bills and call in the police when you are sure. ask her to open her wallet and find the bills in front of the police. that would be immediate dismissal then.
better to pay in lieu though with a witness there and kick her out right away
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If you type in 'stealing' in the search box, you will find lots of suggestions to deal with theft,
Have you noticed any other things going missing? as well as the money, if you have they might be more traceable ie in her room. I suggest you don't search her room as this may stitch you if you have to make a full police report- but if stolen items are found by police they need no more evidence, to procecute her.
She may be in debt and stealing to pay loan sharks, and you don't want the hastle of them either.
If you are now 100% sure this is happening, then it might be an idea to ask the police their advice on trapping her. It is difficult to prove without video evidence, so it will still be your word against hers. Unless she can be proven guilty she will just go on to another employer and steal again.
If you didn't want to go down any of these routes, then you could just dismiss her with one months pay in leiu of notice,airticket home for 2 wks after termination date (then she can't say she didn't have a fair chance of getting another job. If she demands a reference only give her a short honest one, ie worked from / to, performed such duties, you don't have to mention anything about her honesty, any future employer reading it will 'read between the lines " and have their doubts. less chance of her getting another job.
I have lived with a lazy, petty thief DH for two years, it has been absolute hell, and if we could have definately had evidence, of the things going missing, we would have got rid of her sooner, however she had lots of relatives working as Dh's who would have encouraged her to cause trouble if dismissed, so we put up with her till the end of her contract, we gave her a basic honest reference, and nobody wanted to employ her what a surprise!!, plus she was very racist- didn't want to work for Chinese or Indians, etc etc.
So I am very pleased to say she is now gone, and I feel a great sigh of relief!! My door code is being changed very soon, to make sure she doesn't come back before she leaves the country for good next week.
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you could install a cam in your room, that is hidden so the next time she comes in to your room and does steal something, you will have it recorded
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Paying off loan sharks has been an issue in the past, which we have always been very good to her and helped her to pay off her debts. I'm guessing it's the same situation again although the phone calls have yet to begin...
I forgot to mention that we have employed her for 10 years, and signed a new 2 year contract just before the incidents began. Therefore there's the issue of the terminal award...nightmare! thanks for all your input.
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We have recently been in this situation. Our helper was going into my handbag or my husband's briefcase and taking money from our wallets - two or three hundred dollars a time. We had had our suspicions for a little while, but when a couple of thousand went missing and I couldn't account for it, we decided to monitor our cash closely. We also monitored when she had opportunities to steal.
We wrote down all the serial numbers of the money in our wallets and counted it together every morning. Then I counted it again after she had an opportunity to take it. Low and behold, there was money missing. She did this two days in a row. There was no doubt as there was noone else in the house in the two hours between counting the money and when she had a chance to take it. My husband came home from work and we confronted her together.
She denied it of course. Then she admitted to taking $100 only that day. She slipped up and said she had taken $100 the day previously. STill not being completely truthful! We asked her to empty her bag,wallet and pockets and we found the notes she had taken hidden in her id card holder. After reading other posts here, I was not sure about whether to involve the police. We decided it was the best course of action because she had lied to us about stealing the money and refused to admit she had taken more than we could prove. But the biggest reason we called the police in the end was because she showed absolutely NO remorse. Nor were we sure that she had not taken anything else from us and we wanted a witness while she packed her bags and we looked through her room. The police were excellent and because we had evidence, asked if we wished to prosecute. We said no, but there is an official police report and this can (and should) be copied to immigration and the helper's agency. Because we had evidence it was immediate dismissal. We also made sure she had somewhere to go before we let her leave.
We did not provide a reference. She refused to sign the dismissal letter stating the reason for termination, but she signed the Immi form which did state theft and of course the police report will go to immi too. Nor are you obliged to pay a month's salary in lieu because she has committed fraud. But you are obliged to pay for her flight out. We gave her the salary she was owed up to that day. If I'd had my way, I would not have paid her a penny, knowing she had had quite enough from us to already.
Make sure your kids if you have any are out of the way when you do this. It is not pleasant and they don't need to be involved in any way. It is an awful situation but I am so pleased that she has gone, and that we could prove it and do something about it. I am still shocked that she showed absolutely no regret but I guess she showed her true colours. She had been with us a year. I cannot imagine having to start all over again building up trust with a new helper. I hope this helps you.
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Easiest option is to pay what you owe her (one month wages, long service, trip home, outstanding vacation) and terminate her.
You do have sufficient reason for termination "for cause". In that case have a witness present, confront her with the situation and tell her you will call the police if she does not sign a termination letter and go quietly. Note, though, that this is much more hassle.
In the end, the objective must be to get her out of your house. Ask yourself if you have the energy for a protracted legal process, and also if she would actually go that route.
I am normally very much against cameras, but if you have clear suspicion of a crime being committed, it can be justified. Is it worth the hassle though versus just letting her go? You know she is guilty now.
"Unfortunately the Filipino domestic helpers here are known to steal money or jewellery from where homes and from kitchens when they make the transfer to restaurants. They think it's fringe benefits!"
Oh come on... Let's not lump all helpers into the same category... Some steal but most don't. If most of the 150000 Filipino helpers stole money, I don't think anyone would employ them. You make it sound as if they are all thieves!
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The reality is that some people steal. In HK, the only way to stop it is if you press charges. Then there is a record. Then next time this girl tries to get a job, she will be barred from coming. Most employers don't want to take the time to press charges even when they have the proof. perhaps b/c it is time consuming and all, but the reality is that unless a case is taken against a domestic helper (or anyone for that matter) for stealing, she can always do it again with the next employer.
I disagree with the statement that Filipino domestic helpers here are "known to steal"
This is a strong diservice to the thousands of helpers who are honest, hardworking and have become like a right arm to the family. Such generalizations are from a narrow minset.
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Hi Asterix99, It is a more difficult situation when she has been with you 10yrs, with the long term payouts etc.
However as you say you have 'bailed' her out with loan sharks, you have been very good to her, and tollerant, but if she is stealing provably the only way, is to get police advice on layings traps in order to catch her out, you could try either video cam, or marking your notes and being extra vigilant when she has occasion to take them, try to have a witness around when you catch her, then get the police, unfortunately helpers like this one give the good ones a bad name, and they are better caught and never allowed to work in HK again. It might be worthwhile also phoning immigration, tell them of your suspicions and ask them to make record of report to them, and see what advice they give.
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Agree with hk watcher. There are some helpers that steal and get away with it and because their employers do not press charges to avoid the hassle, they still get to stay and work here to steal again from their next employer with no fear.
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It's so disappointing to know that someone who has worked for you for 10 years steals from you. The trust is gone.
My last filipino helper steals my hair accessories (hair bands and petty stuff), and wears my clothes & my spouse socks!!!!!. My previous one uses my skin care products and steal toys & nappies from my children. And we never count our money nor keep track, I never know how much I have in my wallet and my spouse always leave money lying around.
I am now using a local HK Chinese helper who is very efficient, professional and honest. She has high expectation of her quality of work and we have a very professional and happy relationship. She makes sense when she speaks and respect my decisions as final. My life is so much better now. She is also good with the kids too and they learn to speak chinese too.
It is a shame really that these roreign helpers choose to go down the wrong way, when they have such a good opportunity to pave way for a better future financially than in their home country.
Asterix99, I am sorry for you but honestly speaking I agree charges should be pressed for deterring & warning other helpers. Of course it is such a hassle first you need to take time to gather evidence than report to the police. Time is precious for us all and honestly the last thing I want is to spy on my helper to catch her!!
Hope you can find a good solution do keep us posted.
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star tropper, you make it sound as if Chinese are all great and foreign ones are all bad.
There are honest and dishonest individuals within every nationality.
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axptguy38, begging your pardon, but you make it sound as if since she is a foreign domestic helper, her stealing should be over-looked and her employer should just turn a blind eye, pay her up, and send her on her merry way to her next employer-soon-to-be-victim.
Stealing is stealing and it's wrong. It's also a criminal offence.
In this case, both the police and immigration should be informed.
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How on Earth did you get that from what I said?!?
I said: "In the end, the objective must be to get her out of your house. Ask yourself if you have the energy for a protracted legal process, and also if she would actually go that route."
I never said the employer should turn a blind eye. I simply pointed out alternatives. If the OP doesn't wish to press charges, that is their prerogative.
I never said that she should be forgiven because she is a DH. I was responding to posts which painted all DH in a negative light.
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I don't understand why some people discourage employers of thieving fdhs from pressing charges, and instead, encourage them to simply pay whatever is needed to get rid of the helper. Granted that it is easier to just pay 1 month in lieu of notice, that thief does not deserve another month's salary and should be prevented from preying on another employer. An endless cycle....
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I am a domestic helper and it's a shame that another domestic helper is stealing, it all tarnish us all foreign domestic even those who do not steal. My say is, press charges, so she won't jump to another employer and does the same.
Star troper, every nationality there is always one that would steal, we once have a neighbor chinese family who sacked thier chinese ama for stealing red pockets and jewelries, only narrow minded individuals do generalize i supposed.
asterix, put a spy cam, then when you get the evidence, just show it to her right up front.
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I have no idea how effective it is to have a police report. In the long term I hope that it will make it harder for her to get another visa. But I know that the helper I terminated is looking for another job (and of course I would expect her to do so). But I also know that she is not being truthful about the circumstances of her dismissal. I would not wish for anyone else to go through the same thing we did. But I guess at some point someone is going to take her at her word and employ her, without a written or verbal reference from me. I dearly wish there was more I could do to prevent this. I also agree that the vast majority of helpers are wonderful, completely trustworthy and would be as shocked and dismayed by my helper's actions as I was.
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Just as an addendum to that, I have been searching for a new helper on the Asiaxpat Domestic Helper pages and have found out that the same helper I dismissed for stealing is also listed here. I was under the impression that all the helpers listed on these pages were vetted by Asiaxpat before being listed and that their bios would therefore be honest and I could trust them. Having read my ex-helper's bio, I can safely say that that is not the case; she has clearly embellished a few truths and left out others. I am wondering whether I can trust any other bios as a consequence.
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you should get references anyway
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you should get references (letters and preferably phone numbers of previous employers so you can have a conversation.
there is also another way to find a new helper which is to ask around amongst your circle of friends for recommendation.
i find recommendations from employers themselves is more reliable. anyone can put anything on her CV especially when there is so little official means for us potential employers to do due diligence for. i am not saying all helpers do this but as job seekers we all tend to try and make our CVs as attractive as possible, plain human nature. even through this channel you should still do a full interview and check references try her out first before deciding. this is still not a guarantee but at least you are active minimising risks for potentially hiring someone else not trustworthy.
good luck!
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It happened again! Last night I filmed myself putting a small pen mark on 5 notes that were in my wallet, and then i left them deliberately messily lying on the desk. In the morning i went into the living room and lay on the couch pretending to be extremely sleepy. She went into my room and took one of the notes. I confronted her and she denied it obviously, then i asked her to show me her wallet and low and behold, there it was. She insists she didn't take anything else but obviously her word means nothing as she lied about the money that i proved she had stolen.
I've asked her to pack her things and leave by the end of the day as I'm sure she has friends and family members working in Hong Kong with whom she can stay. She has just asked for her long service money! I've told her that I'm not prepared to pay and if she wants to make a big deal out of it I can bring the police in.
I've agreed to give her this month's salary and organise a plane ticket, both of which i will give to her when she comes back for the rest of her things and leaves for good.
I really appreciate all the advice and points of view that have been posted in response to my dilemma and if anyone can see any potential problems with the way I'm handling things, please let me know!
Cheers
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"But I guess at some point someone is going to take her at her word and employ her, without a written or verbal reference from me. I dearly wish there was more I could do to prevent this. I also agree that the vast majority of helpers are wonderful, completely trustworthy and would be as shocked and dismayed by my helper's actions as I was."
You could have prevented her from working and preying on her next employer victim had you filed charges. She wouldve been deported after jail time and banned
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asterix,
question..did you also film catching her when you asked her to open her wallet and found the marked money she stole? If so, then good but If not, it would be her word against yours should she file a case against you because the police were not called in to catch her.
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good luck with it all Asterix, but somehow I don't think this is going to go down quietly as 10 years of long service leave is a lot of money for the helper to be walking away from.
I sympathise with you, as I had a helper steal from me.....ta foo tou.....skimming the groceries as it is called colloquially. I found that it happened due to bad advice when I first came to HK. I was told that you only give tiny bits of grocery money to your helper $300 at a time, so that they have to ask you all the time for money to keep them on their toes. It was a really stupid way to run the whole show, firstly as I would hate to have to ask my boss for cash every 3 days to do my job and secondly, because it was totally ineffective. It is better to put in some work and audit your outgoings, with receipts (yes even from the wet market you can get receipts). I find that now when friends of mine find out their trusted helper has ta foo toued, and are totally aggrieved about it as they worked on a system of trust, I must say I do believe they brought it on themselves, managing an employee for a good working relationship takes hard work, and not only on your helper's part, on yours too, you need to set and maintain the boundaries, reduce opportunities for dishonesty. However stealing by taking money from your wallet /purse is indefensible thievery!!!!!! No one can know that this is not right!!!
Going back to my helper stealing from me, it amounted to $600 per month, which really upset me, more so as I knew she was on the minimum wage with her last local elderly employers and I gave her a pay rise to $4500 as she came with glowing references, and the job with me was more complicated (my opinion) as it involved a newborn. So I can totally understand how you feel about this helper whom you trusted stealing from you and then lying about it.
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I'm sorry to hear she did it again Asterix but hope you find someone you can trust in the future.
Mike204
"You could have prevented her from working and preying on her next employer victim had you filed charges. She wouldve been deported after jail time and banned".
We debated whether to do so and I agree that this more serious course of action may be the only way to prevent her or anyone else doing it again. We could only prove that she had taken a fraction of the money that we know she actually did take from us. The police asked if we wished to press charges and we declined. In part this was because they informed us that a copy of the police report, which would include the fact that she had confessed the crime to them, would be forwarded to immigration. This in itself is enough to make it difficult (I don't know about impossible) to gain a visa to reenter HK.
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