Posted by
steve567
14 yrs ago
I just want to warn anybody looking for a domestic helper to be very careful of applicants who have not stuck at a job for a long time. In our case she only stayed a very short time leaving us in a difficult situation. Now no doubt if you, as a potential employer, was to ask her why she only stayed with us for a short time (and her previous boss too) she would say negative things about us or the job. Which we know is totally not true. But as we all know people will often say whatever is needed to get a job. I encourage anybody looking for a helper to try to contact their previous employer(s) to get both sides of the story and look for helpers with good track records and reference letters.
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It depends. What if the previous employer was really abusive?
Reference letters are only really useful if you know the person giving the reference, or if they are really really glowing.
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HKM3
14 yrs ago
After our most recent experiences, I have to agree with the original poster.
This week we were about to hire a helper who had been with her previous employer for 10 months. Having been through so many negative experiences with helpers taking advantage of us, we now have a very detailed set of interview questions that the candidates must answer. This candidate, at no point in the interview, indicated that she was not given one months notice. In fact, she made a big point to tell us she was leaving because she couldn't "meet the standards" of her former employer, a foreigner. At the conclusion of the interview I asked the helper for her former employer's number. She hesitated, but gave it to me. When I asked for any reference letters she said she had left them at home (in the Philippines). We still intended to process her, we liked her demeanor. I don't know why, but when I asked for copies of her passport/HKID for processing I asked for her termination letter from this most recent employer. Only then did I realize that not only had she been terminated, but terminated abruptly for cause - hence she did not even receive one month's notice. When we then tried to contact the employer we found that the so-called reference number was the number of the helper's sister.
Prior to this helper, we had a woman start with us - fully knowing we had pets and children - who after only 4 days decided she didn't want to deal with the dogs OR the children (all well behaved). She found the work too difficult having had elder care as her most recent experience. Could she be telling a prospective employer that we overburdened her?
We've also terminated a driver after 2 1/2 months for disappearing with the car for 2 to 3 hour blocks "for lunch" - and not picking up his cell phone - during my child's nap time - when he assumed I didn't need the car. When initially confronted he lied outright and said he wasn't taking the car, but just moving it to a different location in the lot to eat privately. When I told him that was also a lie because I stood on the terrace and saw him pull out/in he tried to cover it with another lie. Once caught, despite my trying to maintain the relationship, he became surly and uncooperative. I couldn't even fire him for "cause" (although the other drivers in the building admitted they knew what he was doing) so we allowed him to "resign". I'm sure he's telling someone out there that we were the unreasonable ones!
I'm offloading a bit, and please forgive me. We are generous employers who have simply been taken advantage of, tricked, manipulated in so many ways by helpers (the above are only two examples...we have more) that we're very near the point of not hiring any more. We want to trust, but after a certain point it becomes difficult.
You also have to remember that it costs an employer money to hire - and fire. I find it hard to believe that someone will randomly terminate only to go through the process and cost, and wait, once again unless there is justifiable cause.
Separately, I also don't understand why there can't be a central database that prospective employers can read the papers filed on any helper. Had I not asked for the termination letter (and I never have before), I would never have learned that the helper candidate was fired for cause.
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That's very true that in some cases the employer is actually bad and the helper has a terrible time and wants to leave. That is why I mentioned getting both sides to the story so that you can consider things more carefully. Any ideas what other ways there are to find out if a helper is going to be good or not. As basically I have given up for now because I cant cope going through everything again just to have the helper walk out after a week.
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Doing your research is the best strategy.
Then again my wife's "sixth sense" about a person is better than any reference letter or the like. She's hired hundreds of people and that experience shines through. If you know someone with lots of hiring experience, it may be worth asking them for help.
"Separately, I also don't understand why there can't be a central database that prospective employers can read the papers filed on any helper."
The potential for abuse would be enormous.
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The best way to find out if a helper is going to be good is to actually speak to their last employers if possible, what MKm3 says is true, a lot of the bad ones will lie, use relatives or friends as fraudulent referees. I also think some FDH's will stay with employers for shorter times to get more returns back home, crafty! but hopefully this kind of DH will set alarm bells ringing with future employers and eventually find it difficult finding work at all in HK.
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Wouldn't it make sense to have a probation period of say 3 months in which if the helper quits she/he is not entitled to a paid ticket home?
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HKM3
14 yrs ago
Axptguy - I agree doing your own research is essential, however I feel that the system is set up to make it almost impossible to conduct any true research. Employers move away, letters are "lost" - and, again, there is no central database of information. In some cases, where the employer is willing to pay the month to terminate immediately rather than dealing with the aggravation of a potential labour court/tribunal in a true cause termination then that helper is back out there looking for a new job. In my own case, I know I find it easier to do it that way (meaning, pay them the month just to have them go, now.)
Susie1 - yes, we did have a helper who, in the first week with us, locked herself in her room because she was homesick. Despite our other helper's efforts, despite our own efforts, she wouldn't come out. So after tremendous effort and angst, we terminated her, with one month's notice. I always suspected that she was playing with us: What a deal! Come, all expenses paid, for a week. Return with one month's salary for having done no work, and do it again. All airfare free, of course.
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I think under their contract rules from Imm, they are still entitled to fare home even if they have only worked a very short time,
It would make a lot of sense if the employer had this protection at least for a probationary period, but I don't think it exsists.
It would also make good sense if the Imm dept asked these 'habitual quitting helpers' a few more questions, and maybe put a warning against thier files for future job application to stop them habitually abusing employers trust, maybe allowing 3 short contracts - leaving for trivial reasons! then no more employment here.
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HKM3
14 yrs ago
And, one more point - without any tangible, legal proof, how can we indeed confirm that a potential candidate was with one employer for 2 years, and another for 4? Even the agencies take the helper's word for it on their own applications.
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Axptguy - you do have a point re potential abuse for a central place where helpers references can be checked. But it is almost impossible for us empolyers to check references. Afterall, we are inviting a complete stranger into our homes to live with us. We surely want some sort of re-assurances that such person has a good track record.
Do you think Asiaexpat can set up such a database?
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I agree that it would be nice to have more information. However I don't think such a system is easy to implement or easy to protect from abuse.
The problem, as I see it, is privacy. Who has the right to see this info?
Sure, there are helpers who game the system. But I bet there are more who are physically abused and quit early because of it. They would be penalized for this. Research from the HK Human Rights League (if memory serves) states that 25% of helpers have been verbally or physically abused. If a helper quits after a beating, why should this affect her record?
"Wouldn't it make sense to have a probation period of say 3 months in which if the helper quits she/he is not entitled to a paid ticket home?"
It makes some sense. However the rule is not only there for the helper. It is there for the government so that out of work helpers actually go home.
"Axptguy - I agree doing your own research is essential, however I feel that the system is set up to make it almost impossible to conduct any true research. "
Granted. However it is not really that easy with any kind of employee? At a certain point you just have to make a leap of faith.
"We surely want some sort of re-assurances that such person has a good track record. "
Like any other employer, at a certain point you just have to make a leap of faith. There is no way to eliminate all risk.
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I just got some advice from a friend who said the best way to assure that a new helper doesn't mess you around is to hire somebody who is a relative or close friend of a friends helper who already has a good track record. Again this will not work all the time but seems like a good idea.
Another thing I was thinking about, which I guess will never happen and would be too open to abuse, would be the option for previous employers like myself to add his contact details to a ex-helpers new advertisement on this site. I guess I am just struggling to see my ex-helper re-advertising herself here and knowing full well that there is somebody out there who might end up making the same mistake we did.
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"Axptguy - you do have a point re potential abuse for a central place where helpers references can be checked. But it is almost impossible for us empolyers to check references. Afterall, we are inviting a complete stranger into our homes to live with us. We surely want some sort of re-assurances that such person has a good track record. "
granted. but by the same token there needs to be a central database of employers. it is fairly impossible for helpers to check on employers as well. and taking an objective view - they are at a much higher risk of abuse and exploitation. a single woman agrees to live with an entire family in their house on their terms... wow - i would never be able to do that.
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That's a very interesting idea about the databases of employers as well as helpers. i guess this is what the agencies are supposed to do. But as we all know most of the agencies are just about making money. I have no doubt that our ex-helper will (or at least could) go back to the same agency that helped us with her paperwork and they would be happy to take her money. Likewise if we go back they would happily take more money from us too. So actually helpers that quit after a short time benefit agencies by giving them more work.
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Beancurd,
Great that your consulate have a list of bad employers...therefore you could understand why the employers would like to have the same information.
I can see that you are answering to a lot, but I mean a lot posts on Asia expat....(even if the post is just a question for the others employers). So I was wondering if you are actually working as a DH? because if you are, being on internet all the time, does not give a good example and can put employers off hiring a DH (or make them more suspicious)...so, I am not sure that it is a good example.
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HKM3 check the passport, it will tell you how many times over the last couple of years the helper has been issued with a new employment visa, so if one has one every two years it means they've been good enough/ employment was bearable (or good enough) for them to work out a two year contract.
Reference letter without being able to speak to the previous employer is useless loads on the internet! Also when speaking to an employer verify that they are who they say they are.....helper's friend posed as ex employer, happened to a close friend of mine so its no urban myth.
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Grytch the title of this post is helpers with poor employment records. So usually this is a red flag that there is something wrong with the helper.....just the same as with anyone in any occupation....sure, helpers like everyone else can get unlucky and land a feral job BUT helpers or any employee for that matter that serially have stayed in a job for a couple of weeks/months usually suggest some problem on the part of the employee and not the 10 companies/employers they have worked for.
In terms of your comment that 'you are expecting too much from them'....I wouldn't say that, I would just conclude it is not a good fit. My current helper was let go after a 4 year contract probably to save on the long service leave (which is a whole other injustice...but I digress and also do get that every family makes their own call and may not be able to afford the cost or prefers to spend the LSL on something else or save it ect) and because she was only 'average' at cooking and cleaning, when I telephone interviewed her ex employer, but she was honest and did not steal, and subsequent to that I have confirmed that she is pretty average when it comes to cleaning and cooking BUT she is a star with my child.....so much so that when she is at the park, playgroup and my SAHM pals see her with my daughter they have called me up and told me how great she is, not on the phone, super cheery and very encouraging with her (and my helper does not know really know they are there). So for me she is a keeper and a gem, however not for someone else...doesn't mean I have lower expectations, just different ones and you just have to find the right fit.
Plus about the gut instinct thing........maybe I just wasn't born with much of that because my first helper who I thought interviewed very well went on to steal petty cash from me (came from a local family who never audited their expenditure). So I would prefer to rely in part on the interview, and verifiable references...due diligence as it were.
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I don't agree about trusting reference letters. I think that some people just write good references not to have problems with the helper, to make them "happy".
I think phone calls are the most reliable way to know about the helper. You will learn a lot by chatting over the phone.
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Just giving my opinion here.
When hiring helper, prospective employers must first needs to identify their priorities in hiring. For example, if childcare and housekeeping would be the two most important tasks that needs to be taken cared of. Then based on these 2 priorities, one needs to identify the most suitable candidate. Domestic helpers are NOT superhumans and most of them have no prior training to do the tasks that you expect them to do. They have skills that maybe considered lackluster on your part but may have other skills which they can comfortably do. Once you have evaluated that the helper can do the two most important requirements that you desire, then proceed to evaluate their personal qualities. Evaluate whether she is honest on her answers. How does she communicate to you, any qualities that she may have that maybe pleasing. Is she the outgoing person or more a timid type. Try to find out whether she is really hardworking or asked her to provide situational examples, where she tried her best to learn the things that she was not trained (eg. cooking or cleaning) to do.
After doing all the evaluations, then you decide who among the helpers you have interviewed would be the most suitable one. Once hired, you must still orient and teach your helper the expected things that you require them to do in your household. Some helpers are witty that they can easily adopt, but some, being nervous and untrained to do the tasks would keep on making mistakes. In this situations, the employer must ensure that she/he had provided the necessary support or training to the helper. If the employer losses his/her temper, then surely the helper would be more nervous and it could easily result to the termination of the helper. The helper sensing that she was not capable to do the tasks expected of her, would always be wary and nervous whenever her employer is around and would always result to tasks that may be subpar at employers point of view which causes more tension and results in the early termination of contract.
Note: If your helper can do the two most important tasks that you have considered in hiring a helper, then you should consider yourself to be lucky and rate your helper as good but if she can perform more tasks than was expected, then you have found a star quality helper.
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mdap
14 yrs ago
We recently terminated a Nepalese domestic who was with out doubt the worst domestic experience I have encountered. So bad, the Nepalese Consul General phoned to apologise. It ended up in the court and this domestic even here refused to accept her legally entitled severance, because she would not accept she was being terminated - this is after; sleeping in our bed during the day, showering in our bathroom, refusing to clean toilets, stealing, refusing to accept $750 a month in food allowance, refusing to assist my elderly mother in walking etc etc ....
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HKM3
14 yrs ago
I find the above post aggravating. As an employer - any employer, be it in a home or in company - there are expectations to be had of employees. No one is asking a helper to do something that they (the employer) can't do themselves, and that is all that we are asking of helpers: to help. Too many allowances are made for the "poor suffering helper" (which I no longer accept), and in the writer's mind no allowance is made for the suffering employers - who hire with a genuine need, and best intentions in mind and then find themselves tippy-toeing around and burdened by an uncooperative, unwilling, surly-attitude-prone employee who, in my experience (hiring people with experience) always has an angle on how to "get" me - be it exta holiday time, dead relatives, graduating children, stealing food, skimming cash, etc. In a professional workplace this behavior would simply not be tolerated, and the employee would be fired - without the luxury of return airfare, one month's salary, travel allowance, etc.
While I understand and genuinely sympathize with the fact that a difficult situation back home encourages helpers come to Hong Kong, it is not the employer's job to do you a favor. Just as an employer needs to be fair and reasonable, a helper needs to do their job, and be professional. If you can't do the job - or are unwilling to do the job - be honest and don't torture everyone (which oftentimes include an entire family with young children) in the process. Quite frankly, I'm completely turned off by the union-like, almost bullying, attitude of late in a certain helper community. Everyone knows their "rights" - but no one seems to understand their responsibilities. It is a job, pure and simple. It is work. No one ever said work is the same as "fun".
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It also helps to be very specific about your requirements when choosing a helper. in our case, we were looking for someone to take care of our toddler daughter as first priority. So of course this was our first, and most important question to her..."Do you have experience with young children?"...her answer was "Yes, I looked after two children under 7 with my last employer, for 6 years (Singapore). What she didn't tell us, whether purposely or not, was that the children's grandmother also lived with the family and prepared all of the children's meals, and the helper simply fed them...since she told us that, we can now understand why meal prep (ie timing, content etc) is a bit haphazard for our daughter, and must be explained repeatedly...this definitely would have influenced our hiring decision
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HKM3, I couldn't agree with you more.
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Yep I agree with HKM3.
And I just want to sat that I started this thread because my wife and I were greatly hurt by our helper leaving after less than 2 weeks and wanted to suggest to other employers that care should be taken. this is not a personal attack at our helper as for the 2 weeks she was with us we were very happy with her and thought that everything was going fine. I did not create this thread so that it could become an arguing ground between domestic helpers and employers. As much as I think it is a good idea to see both sides of a story that is not the point here and no doubt there are forums out there for helpers to discuss the issues of finding a good boss.
Oh and one more thing. I really like the comment made by HKM3 about not expecting the helper to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves. Too True. My wife and I between us cook, clean, wash, look after our son and go to work too. All we wanted and were willing to pay for was a bit of help.
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I am a brand-new first-time employer. Here is my experience so far: An Filipina I know asked me to help her because she was fired after 9 years of service (true) so that the former employer did not have to pay long-term service.// I agreed to sponsor her work visa. I went through the considerable paperwork and in the meantime I myself was fired from work, which left me without a work visa beyond July, but okay for reserves in the bank.// I tried to explain to this Filipina that it was imperative that she take all the paperwork down to Immigration asap and not delay, just try and process...but to her...having the paperwork was as good as having the visa stamped in her passport and she was happy as pie. Today I called her and urged her to begin the paperwork and then she said, 'after the labour tribunal' (the one where she takes her former employer to tribunal)....and I said, after the tribunal WHAT? She said that she would worry about the visa at that point. I asked if she intended to stay in HK or go back home if she won the tribunal, which would be 20 000 HKD. She said she would stay in Hong Kong regardless of the outcome, but would take a long vacation at Christmas if she won. Conclusion: A lot of these people are so stupid, they are partially literate, they are truly clueless individuals.
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Ms Jones, contact IMm and stop any further processing of this persons Dh application to work for you, you don't want anyone like her.
If you are still intent on getting an FDH, then ask around your friends, maybe they know a colleague who is leaving HK for good and has an excellent FDH with recommendation, don't listen to 'sob stories' from an FDH you don't know.
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"It is understood that if helpers with several break contracts, better do not employ them because it means troublesome."
It is not "understood". Plenty of great helpers have broken contracts. It is of course a red flag and should be investigated.
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Susie, if you have read through my posting, you will see that she worked for THE SAME EMPLOYER FOR 9 YEARS continuously and that is why she is about to get a 20 000 bonus (through gov't tribunal) in her 10th year of service. There is no doubt that she will win her case, having been let go exactly 1 mo. and 1 day prior to the date that the 20 000 fell due. That's like firing someone in their 4th decade of service to your company just 5 mo. prior to retirement so that you don't have to pay their pension.// TODAY I found out why she has been delaying going through the new paperwork: according to Hong Kong law, a new work permit and new employment contract cannot be issued to a helper who is currently going through the labour tribunal process. Has to wait until the tribunal is over.
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Ms Jones There are always two side to a story, the previous employers!
Have you spoken to them, there may be other reasons for this dismissal.
There is a post 11 days ago by Asterix, her employee FDH of around 10yrs had been stealing on quite a regular basis, and had the gall to ask about long service pay when she was fired.
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These anti helper rants are repeated ad-nausea on this site and give a very sad insight into the employers state of minds and their one sided view of their privileged lop sided existence here in HK. Grow up look after your own kids and stop whinging for goodness sake.
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Very interesting to read posts from helpers here. learning a lot! much more than having a conversation with my helpers.
so thanks all those helpers posting here. please post often to let us know what you really really think and expect from employers!
i suppose the fact that this is a forum and the identity of writers are somewhat protected allows the writers to freely express their opinions.
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Beancurd, please keep advising and conselling those helpers here, guide them to the right path and let them not forget why they decide to leave their country to work in a foreign land as a DH - because they want to build a better future for themselves and their families. Many (I am not saying all) of the FDHs sooner or later get bad influences from others here - money is a big problem amongst many FDHs here. They go deeper and deeper into debts, until their debt problems affect their jobs. They have to think about the consequences when they decide to borrow money. They already have a big debt to repay when they first come to HK, is it worth digging a deeper and deeper hole for themselves to fall inside. Money does not come easy for most people, it may look easy for some but there is always a hidden story behind easy money. It saddens me to see some FDHs fall into this trap and cannot get out.
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cowleyp i think that usually people post when a problem has arisen and they are trying to solicit ideas about what to do or vent, they post as a way of informing others about one thing or another, they post to tell people about something wonderful BUT they don't post to say that things are okay but boring (probably the vast majority of helper employee relations). The negative posts refer to a small minority of helpers, and we are mostly employers communicating with each other, so naturally there won't be a majority of posters who are helpers to voice out grievances about bad employers.......but perhaps if one were a fly on the wall on sundays.........I don't think its fair to tell posters 'Grow up look after your own kids and stop whinging for goodness sake', it's just like telling all employers of all professions who occasionally have a problem with their staff and vent to........wash all the dishes (chefs), type all your own minutes (secretary), school your own children (teachers)ect.......
perhaps a decision not to read this forum if it bugs you a great deal may be in order
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I think many domestic helpers in HK have some form of skeleton in their closet and are not honest. I have 2 bad experience in the past week - both helpers I was interested to hire lied to me. They gave me the mobile numbers of their current "employer" for reference check but when I called, most of them sounded Filipina and I tested their Cantonese and Mandarin which were worse than mine. Why do helpers do such a thing to someone who genuinely wants to hire them?
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I totally agree with steve567.
I recently hired an indonesian helper in a desperate need to immediately replace my old helper (who has been working for us for 6 years and has to go back home as her daughter was diagnosed with fatal illness).
This indonesian helper had only worked with all her previous employers for maximum one and a half year. But as I was in a desperate need, I hired her immediately and did not bother to call her previous employers.
My oh my, it was my biggest mistake. Within 4 months she worked for us, we caught her stealing my clothes, my Hubby's coins from his trousers pockets during laundry and even my eldest daughter (6 years old) told me that "the auntie" threatened me if I ever tell daddy and mommy when "auntie" slap or hit me.
I am sharing my bad experience to warn all employers the importance of previous employers' direct reference.
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A point of note, if either the helper quits or the employer terminates, either is entitled to one month's notice. If the helper quits and says she wants to leave immediately, then that's the month's salary that she owes you (for not giving sufficient notice). Even if you have to give a ticket, the money owed to you will more than cover this. This is important to remember because alot of people feel that they have to give a ticket on top of all this, which is not the case. Key is getting this on paper when she quits and make her sign (with a witness). Then you can't be criticised later.
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SanjKash has a point in theory however in reality, when your helper decides to quit they almost never want to leave that day but are giving you notice that they will "work" another month. As they effectively live in your home, and if you have children, you can not guarantee what they might steal, do to the child/ren (if only merely neglect it's still an unacceptable risk), generally not perform their duties.....especially if relations have soured, most employers will choose to pay out the month and flight home, so are hit with the double whammy. So it is extremely important to do the leg work first, interview, verify references, determine relevant work history AND thereafter train, maintain the relationship and don't expect the helper to do what you yourself wouldn't be prepared to do within reason from a working hours/demands perspective. I guess I feel it's all about prevention. After one bad experience (helper left after 3 months) where I made a number of mistakes (did not verify reference properly....local family actually knew this helper was skimming the groceries but as the helper did not steal their diamonds, watches, cash from their wallets she was regarded as honest......DUH!?!?!!?!?!?!?!??!......and not auditing my own grocery bills, relying on a system of trust), once I did the appropriate hard work (yes it goes both ways) I've found 2 excellent helpers who are now onto their second contracts with me.
So I reiterate what Steve567 wrote you need to due your due diligence, look at the employment record, speak to previous employers, work out what's important to you to save you and your family frustration and heartbreak long term.
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