Posted by
blue iris
14 yrs ago
I have just had to unplug my phone after 12hrs of threats and abuse down the phone by a man wanting money that my helper has borrowed 'for a friend'. My son was the first to pick up these calls, and I have tried to reason with the man, but he's abusive and threatening me in English and Chinese. My husband is working away and my helper doesn't live in. I have kids and am quite worried.
The number shows up as 'private' and she claims not to have their number. Is there anything I can do? I can't keep my phone unplugged continuously. I have given her tomorrow off, to find this 'friend', but where do we go from here?
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Next time he calls, tell him that you are recording the call and ask for his name and number. That often stops the calls. Regardless of whether he gives his details or not, tell him the debt is not your debt (it isn't) and that you will call the police if he calls you again.
If you do call the police, however, note that your helper living out is illegal and the police may want to investigate that. (I assume she is a Foreign Domestic Helper.)
I have never heard of a loan shark actually hurting an employer in these cases beyond the harsh words. So I wouldn't worry about violence. But it is clearly unpleasant.
Have a serious talk with your helper and tell her you are disappointed that she has let this private matter become a problem for your family. If she can't pay off her debt, she will be in big trouble and unfortunately you may eventually have no choice but to let her go. But definitely give her the chance to set things right first.
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You could also report this to the phone service supplier they have strict policy about threatening and abusive callers. It is an offence in itself.
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Thanks for your replies. I do realise about the 'living out' issue, and it's only been a recent decision as our place was quite small (we do however, pay her rent on a nearby property).
Something similar happened 4 years ago, and we paid off her debt, while she payed us back in small installments. She promised it wouldn't happen again....
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Since this is a repeat offense, if you will, I recommend that you look for a new helper right now. Once you have one, let you current one go. You obviously cannot trust her to be responsible.
BTW good info cowleyp. I did not know that.
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I took cowleyp's advice and contacted PCCW and have now decided to change my home phone number. Only family members tend to use it, and we'll be extremely careful who we hand it out to (not the helper).
Axptguy, you are right of course, but she works alongside her sibling and is efficient, otherwise trustworthy and has been with us 7 years. If one goes, I imagine the second one would too (came in 2nd, speaks little English and is very shy). Would it be wrong to give her a final warning? I realise I only have myself to blame if it all goes pear-shaped, and you'd be right to say "I told you so...."
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PS. Thanks for taking the time to reply, you've made me feel more in control.
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What if these people who have been threatening you know your address as well, thanks to your helper? who must have given them the phone number at some time.
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Well, blue iris, I guess you'll have to decide.
It's not just about the phone number, it is a whole issue of trust.
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I realise about the trust issue, and am not 100% about keeping her on. Neither my son nor I slept much last night, and my husband wants to talk to her face-to-face at the weekend, when he gets home. I did talk to her myself last night, but she was in such a state, crying, that it made it extremely tricky.
Susie1, that has crossed my mind, and I'd like to know if this is a common occurence?
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I still think you should fire her. Once is bad enough. A second time after she promised never to do it again? That's inexcusable.
Unfortunately they might well know your address. It is not uncommon for loan sharks to come and ring the doorbell to ask for money owed by a helper. Did you ask your helper?
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Tune
14 yrs ago
Given that you have a family to consider, how can you entrust your child to this person's care, look after, take to school etc? This in itself is a form of abuse on your part. Given that 'they might well know your address’; surely you can sever all contact with this person and move on. Unfortunately, and you will not like this, it's employers like you, and your altruistic ways, that encourage certain characters to take advantage of the situation. You may not like what I have said; however, perhaps these are the sort of words you need to hear. I wish you well.
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Hugie
14 yrs ago
lots of things to think about here. Like me you seem a real softy. i would probably give here another chance. I know it doesn't make much difference, but the loan might not be hers. I mean, she could have guaranteed a loan for a friend, and that 'friend' has now defaulted. In other words she might not view it as a repeat offence! Now, about the phone number, your helper can easily pick it up and call herself to get it. You need to hide it away when you are not there.
Secondly, I don't think this loan provider is a registered comapny. I have heard of some banks using collection agencies to collect debt, who have been a bit abusive, but never what you have experienced. Sit down with your helper and get all the details and then decide with your husband where to go next.
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tgm
14 yrs ago
The likelihood is that the loan company has your address. They are unlikely to have accepted a loan or a guarantor without proof of address. Helper's who take or guarantee loans often use their copy of the FDH contract as proof of address. Our previous helper guaranteed a loan this way which meant when her 'friend' did a runner she was left with a sizeable bill to pay and we started receiving abusive phone calls followed by letters and then a couple of visits to the door asking for money. Alarming, but no threat of violence. The visits (there were 2) came a couple of months after the phone calls/letters, but by that time we'd let our helper go (end of contract and just not worth the hassles).
We stated at the door and in writing to the company that she no longer worked for us and that we had no part in the loan application. Once they realised they were going to get nothing they simply stopped bothering us - this was well over a year ago.
I would consider letting her go, it's just not worth the hassle. For any new helper you should make it clear that this is something you take seriously and any unpaid loans leading to this type of hassle from loan sharks will lead to termination.
Good luck with this.
Tune: a "form of (child) abuse" - really..? Not very helpful feedback.
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Tune
14 yrs ago
"Tune: a "form of (child) abuse" - really..? Not very helpful feedback."
*Well, how is it not?
*On the contrary, it is very useful given that 'death threats' have been made.
I think blue iris will get the point I'm making. Let's not beat around the bush, making out we're experts on such things. This is Hong Kong after all.
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Thanks for all your replies, they have been extremely useful. We had a long discussion this morning and we have now terminated her contract. I realise this may mean debt collectors still at my door, but I will take tgm's advice about the notices.
Just for future reference, how do you know during interviews, if a helper has a personal loan? Is it my business to ask?
As for child abuse? Hardly. Maybe if I had sat here and done nothing about it, but I asked for advice and followed through. I also happen to consider my childrens upbringing to be my job, not a helpers. I employ helpers to maintain the household/garden duties alone.
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"Just for future reference, how do you know during interviews, if a helper has a personal loan? Is it my business to ask?"
Interesting question. I would say it is your business to ask since it can affect your family so profoundly. However you can be polite about the question and explain why you are asking. Maybe "I know this is a personal question, but it is important to me..."
Agreed that Tune was a bit out of line with the child abuse comment, regardless of whether blue iris has helpers to take care of the kids or not.
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Blue iris I would tell my prospective hire that I collect my own mail and if I receive letters addressed to her which look like loans, she will be asked about them, perhaps required to show them to me and this will not be tolerated. I did this on the advice of some friends who told me that usually they send demand notices first before the harrassment starts. This has worked for me at my home thus far. Good luck with your situation, and hopefully the harrassment dies down very, very quickly.
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I agree with axptguy also, but I would be a bit more direct, and say you are an employer who will not tollerate a helper who has loans or takes one out, that it will lead to instant dismissal.
Also make sure you put on the release form to Imm, that you have been threatened because of helpers debt as reason, plus don't give her a full reference, only employed from--- to, that way potential future employers hopefully will avoid her, as it is not fair to them to pass on an employee like this one.
It sounds harsh, but she would probably be better and safer going back to her home country for good, because debt collectors will still chase her no matter where she is in HK. Keep a copy of dismissal letter and her air ticket in case any debt collectors come knocking at your door in the future.
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They have ypour address. When the FDH take out a loan, they need proof as in a copy of their employment contract. Had this done to me some weeks ago, though not telephone calls. Was told by the agency to send a copy of her relase to the loan company.
On a personal note, I think the lending laws should change where that the lender only lends to the lendee(?)'s permenant address i.e. their home. Totally out of order to hassle the emlpoyers.
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muchado, a helper's permanent address is the employer's residence.
In any case I don't think the loan sharks care that much for the letter of the law...
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It happened to me a few years back and this is what I did to stop it.
First I took my helper to the place where she made the loan and told them to get the "debt collection company" off my back otherwise I would go to the police. The debt collection company is engaged by the loan shark to collect debts and so is liable for their agents actions.
Second I made my helper sign a form of revised payments with the loan shark and that I would pay them from her salary in installments.
Third I gave the helper a final warning and made sure that she did nothing wrong.
I informed the debt collection agency that I would not let her leave the country without letting them know first - obviously I could not he she decided to just up and go.
A few days later a letter came in the post from the debt collection agency and I went to the police and made a statement about nuisance and threatening behaviour and from that day onwards nothing happened.
A month later I terminated the helper and used the money owed to pay off part of her debts.
Suggest you take your helper to the loan company and do the same.
Hope it helps
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Tune
14 yrs ago
'As for child abuse? Hardly. Maybe if I had sat here and done nothing about it, but I asked for advice and followed through.'
Yes, exactly. I was making an extreme point- yet it is 'not out of line'. Sometimes we need to see all angles- we may not like it.
Genuinely glad to see it turn out right for you.
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@Nhoj_71, precisely, that is why I asked if it was any of my business. No other employer of a company would ask you if you had a loan. Granted, it affected my family, but there must be countless other FDH's who take out loans and do repay them.
You are also correct about the debt collection agency. The loan was taken out by Pacific Ace, a company who's been doing our car insurance for 6 years.
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axptguy, what I meant the helper's permanent address is wherehe/she has a charge of i.e. back home. Lender's should not make loans available to helpers based on a temporary address, which is in effect where their work place is.
The people who ring up are not "loan sharks", but debt collectors who operate as collection agents for the lenders. In some lending contracts, and I do not know how the law stands with this clause, they do state that their appointed agents will use whatever means available to them to recover the outstanding amount and any injuries to parties arising from their actions, the lender will not be held accountable. Obviously, this is a grey area as to where civil and criminal law cross over. Bottom line is though, as the employer, you are not the liable party to this and they should take the matter up with the helper directly.
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blue iris, it is difficult to ask questions about loans in interviews for all the reasons/arguments suggested above. What we have always done is made it very clear during interviews that if any issue relating to loans or financial matters affect the working environment or the work of our helper, we will have no hesitation in terminating the contract.
In this case it is very clear that it did affect the working environment (you got threatening calls) and I believe that you were quite right to terminate her. When you hire your next helper just remember to make the ground rules clear.
Good luck.
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Nhoj_71, that's why I said one should be polite about it. People have the right to take out loans. Forbidding a helper from taking a loan is out of line for an employer. However, given the reality that many helpers take out loans and then can't handle the situation, I think asking about it is fair.
I think spurtio has the right approach. Tell the helper that if any loans or such things affect the workplace and the work, you will take action. Exactly like making clear that drinking alcoholic beverages on a weeknight is fine as long as it doesn't affect the work. Let the helper be responsible for her actions.
"axptguy, what I meant the helper's permanent address is wherehe/she has a charge of i.e. back home. Lender's should not make loans available to helpers based on a temporary address, which is in effect where their work place is."
Muchado, I get what you meant. I just think you are wrong. Their workplace, i.e. the residence of the helper and the employer, is their permanent address. That's where they live for years at a time. Saying their "home" in The Philippines is their permanent address is like saying my mother's house in Sweden is my permanent address even though I live in HK. Legally, "permanent" is usually defined as the residence where one spends more than six months a year.
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