Posted by
salseros
13 yrs ago
Hi, I have a helper who is working for us for 1.5 yrs. She is not perfect but she is doing everything properly and taking care of my 7 yrs old daughter very well. Therefore, overall, I am satisfied.
My husband is travelling 70% of his time, and I am working full time. But I do not worry anything about leaving household matters and taking care of my child to the helper.
However, one thing I really hate is...she come back in the midnight when she is on holiday, such as pubcli holiday and Sun.
Since my husband is absend most of the time, from security reason, I am not that comfortable with that.
Before hiring her, she asked my about curfew time, aand I said I expect her to come back by 10 pm.
She used to do so for the first several months, but last year she came back after 11 pm. I talked her, but she said it is her holiday and she has the right to enjoy. Moreover, she said employer does not have the right to control about her time on holiday. She even said we did not write about the curfew time on paper and sign off. Oral conversation has no meaning.
Since I cannot survive without helper, and changing helper needs a lot of time, I did not complain to her about that afterwards.
However, last week, she also came back at 1 am. I am really uncomfortable. I feel that she is looking down on me.
I really do not have the time to change the helper. I use most of my annual holidays for my vacations or going back my home country, so I cannot take more leaves just for changing the helper.
Should I compromise? I am ok to compromise, but I need certain reason to compromise.
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They should have a day off (24 hours) which would imply they could even spend the night out if they wanted to, I guess.
At least, that is what my helper was doing. But after several times she spent the night out without telling me (I am saying telling me, not asking me for permission), I told her that, at least, she should let me know when she was not going to spend the night at home.
After that, she started coming back home (on Mondays or days after holidays) around 9.30 or 10 am or even later, which I told her was not right, but she decided she was going to keep doing whatever she pleased, so I got more nights out without telling, more coming back late in the mornings (one morning, even without the key -she had to ring the bell- because, according to her, she had been drinking and did not know where the key of my house was...and she thought that was not wrong). Amazing.
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As cara says, a helper is an adult. A curfew is not something you impose on an adult apart from special circumstances like the military. Once she is done with work, she should be allowed to do whatever she likes. Who are you to tell her she has to be home at a certain hour? Does your boss do that with you?
Have a talk with your helper. Tell her she is an adult so she may stay out as long as she wants, on work nights and other nights. However you expect her to be able to work during her work hours.
If she drinks that's her business. However if her drinking affects her work that is something you need to get involved in.
On a side note, do give your helper a key so she can come and go as she pleases. Again, she is an adult.
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Thanks for the inputs!
I am Asian (not Chinese), and it seems that there are some gaps between westerners and Asians. Most of my Chinese friends set the curfew time, and its curfew time is very early, liks 8 or 9 pm.
Actually, I consulted this with my agency and they said setting curfew time is reasonable since employer is responsible for helper's security and 10pm is already very set very kind for helpers. My Chinese friend all said 10 pm is too late.
However, I also think that it is ok not to se the curfew time as long as helpers are prepared to start working again on Monday morning. I am just not very comfortable not to keep the door chain until midnight.
Thanks a lot!
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"I consulted this with my agency and they said setting curfew time is reasonable since employer is responsible for helper's security"
This is not correct. You are not the helper's guardian. You are not responsible for her "security", whatever that means. The agency is misinformed.
Again, helpers are adults. Setting a curfew is something you do with children. If she does the job what does it matter how she spends her free time?
"However, I also think that it is ok not to se the curfew time as long as helpers are prepared to start working again on Monday morning. I am just not very comfortable not to keep the door chain until midnight."
That's understandable. However you should find some other solution. Install an extra lock or something. You can not make her a de facto prisoner.
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yon
13 yrs ago
My helper is "off" from 9pm (sat night ) to 9pm (sunday night) Yes helpers are adults and you can't "control" them but as with anything in life, some guidelines will be helpful so that she's ready to do the work for the following week with all the energy needed to do her work without being groggy, tired and a hangover.
Since I need the helper to be up early and starting cooking and misc, I cannot have her stay out and come all tired from whatever is happening on Sunday. Under no circumstances will she be allowed to be coming late. When i was in Philippines/Malaysia my helpers were expected to be back around 8pm
I know that I get cranky when i don't get enough sleep. If I give the "freedom" to make that choice, she's going to want to be out with friends then be with you at home. (see doanni's case)
If you give reasonable expectations, then they should be expected to stick to it. I don't personally allow her to stay out over night either. Sorry but that just spells trouble.
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Hi Salseros,
I disagree with what everyone says about her being an adult and she can do what she likes etc etc, and should have 24 hours off.
At the end of the day, you are the boss and you hire a helper that fits in with you. From the way you've described it, it does seem that she's being rude to you. Yes, she's entitled to 24 hours off and yes she's an adult, but if you want her home earlier and she doesn't want to do that - then give her one month's notice and hire somebody else. What you are requesting is not unreasonable - I know of people who have a curfew for their own different reasons...
You just need to consider whether you want to go through the hassle of hiring another helper.
OR, if you want to insist on the 24-hour break rule, then if she leaves your house to go out before 10pm... then she MUST be home by 10pm then. That's within the law, right?
(And before anyone picks on me for my comments, my helper comes home at 11:30pm on her days off and it doesn't bother me at all. She can do what she likes cos she's responsible and is up in the morning, ready for work...)
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Alot of you on this thread seem like selfish whiners. If she wants to stay out late on her night off she is entitled to do that and if she stays out late during the week she is entitled to that as well unless she comes in and disturbs your sleep. Now I know why many Filipina DH's prefer to work for Westerners. Many of the locals or persons from Asian countries treat DH's as property.
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The 24-hour rule has to do with continuous time off. It is in no way connected to a curfew and should not be used as an excuse to institute one. If you need her to work on Sunday night after giving her 24 hours off you can theoretically do so (although it is not very nice). You should not ask her to come home just because she should be home.
"some guidelines will be helpful so that she's ready to do the work for the following week with all the energy needed to do her work without being groggy, tired and a hangover. "
That's not quite the same thing. Some people are perfectly alert after getting four hours of sleep one night. Others really need eight. It is your helper's responsibility to be ready for work in the morning. How she manages that is up to her. If she is not ready for work, of course you should talk to her about it. But if she works fine then there is nothing more to it.
"If she wants to stay out late on her night off she is entitled to do that and if she stays out late during the week she is entitled to that as well unless she comes in and disturbs your sleep."
Well put. As mentioned before, if you worked in an office and your boss asked you to be home by eleven because you had to work the next morning, would you find that fair?
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yon
13 yrs ago
yes, some people are quite alert and can survive on coffee all day long. But I know all human beings need rest to be at their full capacity the next day.
I also know that people with good work ethics probably will not be out and about in the evenings when they know there's a whole days worth of work the next day. Those however with desire to be out of work for some enjoyment (even if it's just as innocent as chitchatting with friends) they will want to be out and stay out and just enjoy. It is all fine and dandy if you have no responsibilities.
and you are right, I would not NEED to give guidelines if they know fully what they are doing and show the responsibilities and get their work done without any attitude or irritability from lack of sleep.
But from the beginning you need to let them know clearly of your reasonable expectations but specific.
for expample, as I mentioned earlier, i will not take my chances with a new employee and say 'you can go OUT after your work is done as long as you are here in the morning to do your work'.
but I will say, 'you may go and rest as soon as your work is done so you can get your rest to ready for tomorrow'.
Seriously, I'd rather keep somewhat of routine/schedule for everyday so the helper knows what is expected. She will have plenty of talking and smsing during the off hours but to actually to go out and slowing slacking off due to being out is not the chance I would take.
And let's speak in terms with what we've actually experienced rather then what we THINK we should be doing.
If you have a great helper, like I did, that's great. It worked well for us as she was an amazing lady with full of energy doing her work so professionally and making our lives so much easier. She was happy to be with our family working and getting paid as much as we were having her working for us.
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For security reasons you are not comfortable with your DH coming home late? Maybe you should employ a security guard on her night off, as i doubt that a door chain or a 100 pound DH would really give you much protection. She is emplyed to take care of domestic duties, not security! As axptguy said, you cant make her a de facto prisoner. I think there are other issues here...
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For security reasons you are not comfortable with your DH coming home late? Maybe you should employ a security guard on her night off, as i doubt that a door chain or a 100 pound DH would really give you much protection. She is emplyed to take care of domestic duties, not security! As axptguy said, you cant make her a de facto prisoner. I think there are other issues here...
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You are quite right madtown. Technically "general" laws against abuse of employees apply. However in practice helpers are very exposed to many kinds of abuse. A survey by Human Rights Watch HK (if memory serves) found that up to 50% of helpers had suffered physical and verbal abuse. Overworking a helper without even overtime pay is unfortunately an endemic practice.
Specific verbiage should definitely be in the helper regs, but unfortunately there is no such. On the bright side, helpers do get a weekly rest day, a minimum wage and maternity protection in HK. They don't in Singapore.
For the record, we pay overtime for late evenings and other exceptional duties.
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imho - the issue here that i see is not really about being an adult or helper obligations or abuse or contract matters or being a selfish employer but rather i see your helper having an attitude problem.
she is clearly in control of the situation and it seems that the more she is employed with you, the bolder she becomes of asserting what she wants or she doesn't want.
i just fear that the situation could get worse and she might run the household the way she sees fit if you do not step in and assert yourself.
the way i see it , she is bold enough to do it because she sees that you depend on her and she could be thinking that she is indispensable.
it is your call but i would personally sit her down and re-visit the working terms and conditions set out in the beginning. if you can't come to terms then think about getting new help. as they say nip in the bud...
btw. in the normal corporate world - can we say , i am an adult and i'm entitled to rest days therefore i won't come in on saturdays? if the employer complains, then i would assume that the employer is selfish greedy bast**d even though those are the company rules and regulations ?
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ps. also i think it is justifiable to expect that she advises you what time she comes home as a matter of courtesy. it is after all your home.
if she insists on asserting her so called right as an adult, then isn't it time that you also assert your right as a responsible employer and home owner.
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yon
13 yrs ago
Well put Wiz!
I dont know why but theres a few on this forum who seem to assume that everyone that complains about their helper or try to put some kind of limitations is abusing their maids!
It's about art of keeping middle ground.
Trying to manage staff so that they don't feel they Know that you are the one in control of the household. Trying to be fair as well but not overly nice to a point they end up telling you what needs to be done and you have no say. Keeping reasonable boundaries so everyone has expectations to meet.
Let's not assume the worst employer when they r posting.
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Hi salseros, you said that she has worked for you for 1.5 years now, well you could start looking for a new helper now to start immediately after your present helper finishes her contract. That, she doesnt have a say if you do not want to re-contract her. She will be asking you soon.
Im going to be cheeky in this part though, I am looking for an employer for my sister in Philippines. Although she may not have any experience, I will be supporting and guiding her. I am prepared to do all the leg work for you in the process so that you do not have to worry about taking a day off at work. I also have an experience with working with children of your child's age in a school setting (UK and HK English school) so I can also support and advice her on many aspects ragarding how to support your child with school homework and activities.
Moreover, you will be guaranteed not ever have that problem you are having now.
Hows does that sound?
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