Posted by
PuiK
13 yrs ago
Hello. I am going to give birth very soon and i have heard that people are setting camera in the flat.
Does any of you do that? I will leave for work probably after 3 months. I don't think i would be able to stare at the screen to see what's going on most of the time. Some people say that this would kind of 'scare' the helper before she slacks off. Some people say the helper would always hide somwhere else in the flat where the camera is not targeting. Honestly i have no interest to check on my helper what she does with the baby. At the same time i want to know if my helper does or doesn't do the right thing and i may be able to correct her when im home. (For eg if i see her leaving my dog with the baby alone in the flat while she goes out shopping. This is not somthing she would tell me and most time she doesn't even know what's right and what's wrong to do)
I would like to get some feedback from you to see if you think this is worth the hassel or not?
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I do not, but yet to have any children.
But I think I would for piece of mind.
Considering any help is basically a random stranger that you have come to your home and can literately effect many aspects of your life.
A hidden camera is a better way to go, and know 100% what you see is real, and not staged for the camera.
I work in a office of 25 staff and theirs 40 + cameras watching.
no one would do anything silly in front of the camera.
well no-one sane. eg: had one staff sacked for theft.
but, there are blind spots and these can be used one way or another.
alternatively you could be have a obvious camera in one location and hidden camera covering a assumed blind spot.
Better safe than sorry.
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This is really a personal choice. You'll hear some say that if you don't trust your helper then better get another one instead of installing a cam. To me the logic is more complicated than that. For one thing, trust need be built up over time and it's not unreasonable for your to worry whether your helper is doing the right thing with your baby when she has not been with you for that long, though you may not have had any specical reason to distrust her either. For another, you may simply want to see how your baby is doing during the day, regardless whether you trust your helper or not.
For me, I do have a cam installed in the living room, in a quite visible manner. I in fact told my helper that I'd be installing it when I went back to work and explained to her that I really wanted to see how my child was doing when I was away, and also if anything happens to them I can see it through the cam and instruct my helper properly. My helper said she understood it. My intention was really not so much to spy on my helper since I only had the cam in one room, though in reality I'm sure she would feel the need to pay more attention to whatever she does within the scope of the cam. For me it's really useful to be abel to see what my child is doing during day when I want to. And, just two weeks ago, my child fell off from the high chair during meal time and, when my helper called me, I could see the situation through the cam and tell her what to do while I'm rushing home.
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I used to work in a big where it's not possible to watch the workers-- plumber, carpenters, service men etc- all the time so I will often tell them there's a camera and I noticed they seem to work faster and better that way.
From a helper's point of view, it would have been better if she was told of this plan before she got hired, or when you become pregnant so she could be prepared. whatever your reasons are, valid as they are, not everyone would be happy in this set up. I certainly know I will not as I work better alone than when watched. But if I know before hand, then I will have the choice of accepting the job or not with big brother around.
I think no sane person, helper or not would leave the baby in the flat. Whether with the dog or not. Don't you think your helper has enough common sense to know what is right and wrong when it comes the basic child minding? It's not an easy decision to make, but at the end of the day, whatever can give you a peace of mind..that's what you should do.
Will you let her know of your plan?
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PuiK
I think it will be better to let your helper know that you are planning to install a cam and explain to her the reason(s). I am sure she will appreciate that.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
Hello thanks for your feedback.
If i did set up the cam i probably will tell her. It's kinda funny to come home annoyed and tell her what she did was wrong and she had no idea how i found out about it. Yes i would love to see how the baby's doing when im working too.
And for those of you who already have a cam setting up, anyone knows where can i get that? In Shamshuipo or where? How do i connect to my work computer? Thanks for your input.
And to answer SouffleQueen's question: Common sense is actually not too common on the maids' mind. Alot of people are saying how the maids have degree in their homeland and they come to HK to work just because of money. So far i haven't met anyone like that and most of them are from villages. I once asked my maid to tell me the weight and height about a table and realized that she didn't know how to use a ruler to read cm / inches etc. Somtimes it's better to expect nothing then somthing from them.
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PCCW do a home security system which can be fixed up to your computer and mobile phone, google and have a look.
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I am very much against cameras. Find a helper you can trust. Sure, check up on her in the beginning, perhaps by having friends pop by for unannounced visits. But if you don't trust her you have the wrong helper.
You should try to build a relationship with the helper, so that you can trust her not to, say, leave baby alone in the flat. Get to know your employee and co-habitant as a person. Be aware of her foibles, strengths and weaknesses.
Setting up a camera sends the message that she can NEVER be trusted. There is simply no way to build proper trust if she feels you are constantly watching her.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
I think it's nothing to do with trusting or not.
If the maid doesn't have the mindset of knowing what's right or wrong to do, doing the wrong thing doesn't mean that she's a bad/careless person. Somtimes it could be 'wrong' in the mother's mind but it could be 'right' on the helper's mind.
So i think trusting or not is not the issue. I think by setting up the cam is just to help to correct her to do things my way. My way could be 'wrong' but that's the way i want things to be done.
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PuiK, if the helper doesn't have the mindset for knowing what the employer finds right or wrong, that helper needs to be educated or dismissed.
Correcting with a camera as a tool is a very heavy handed way of doing it. Much better to know your helper and for her to know what you want. You need a helper that can adapt to your way of doing things. Good helpers do this, and there is no need for Big Brother tactics.
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yon
13 yrs ago
axptguy38 not everyone is as educated as you. and it's not really Big Brother either. She's not doing this for entertainment purposes. Can you imagine being away from your child 10 hours a day??? Trust needs to be built. I have had maids who are nice but would walk in on me and my husband first thing in the morning to put laundry away!
PuiK under the circumstances, her knowing that there's a reasonable reason why the camera needs to be up, she would understand. It's not like you are just waiting for her to make the wrong move. You are a nervous mom who will be away from a baby for a long time. I understand. I was fortunate enough to stay home but I would consider the choices if I had to leave for work.
If it's a choice between making sure my child is ok to not hurting someone feelings, I would choose my child.
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"It's not like you are just waiting for her to make the wrong move. "
I think most people with cameras do fall into the trap of waiting for her to make a wrong move. Just too much control.
"If it's a choice between making sure my child is ok to not hurting someone feelings, I would choose my child."
Of course. But I don't think a camera helps. If you think there is any significant risk your child will be hurt by your helper's neglect, why would you leave him/her alone with the helper in the first place? You have to trust a helper first, not install a camera just in case she cannot be trusted.
"I have had maids who are nice but would walk in on me and my husband first thing in the morning to put laundry away!
And then you ask her not to do so. And see how that goes. The point is that a good helper learns.
""axptguy38 not everyone is as educated as you. "
How is that relevant? In my opinion, there is not really a correlation between good education and good people management skills.
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Axptguy38, I think you might have missed a point here. If I remember from your prior posts, you stay at home and you are fortunate to have a fantastic helper. Other people, however, may well be in a quite different situation.
A lot of new moms, like the OP, have to leave their babies with a helper whom they have not got sufficient opportunity to know well enough to fully trust. A cam is probably the most practical way for them to continue to observe and understand their helpers, and hopefully, to enable them to build up confidence in their helpers. Why do they leave babies with these helpers in the first place if you don't fully trust them? Well, I hope HK government/companies offer 6 months to 1 year maternity leave as is common in western countries, by the end of which time moms will have a much better understanding of their helpers and sufficient time to change if needed. Or, even better, I wish more HK moms can afford to stay at home to take care of their kids.
Aside from the time needed to observe and better understand your helper before you can fully trust her, there's also the possibility that you may have to settle with a helper that you don't feel 100% comfortable with but nevertheless reluctant to change (due to the time/cost involved, or the risk of getting a even worse replacement, or whatever). Remember in any professtion, there's only a small percentage of the employees on the market that are superb, another small percentage that are badly underperforming, with the majority being just so-so. Yes people can improve, but realistically a lot of the mundane workers probably remain so for their career. Again this is the case in any industry. And this not purely about the employers' management and training skills. So statistically, there MUST be a lot of DH employers, like other employers, who have to settle with helpers that are not quite satisfactory/cannot be fully trusted on their own. In their situation, the cam is probably a way to both enable the employers to monitor their helpers' work and to enhance the helpers' self-restraint. Not ideal I know, but not everybody has the luck of a great helper; when you cannot fully rely on trust, monitoring has to play a role. As long as the helper is fully informed of the setup, I would not pass judgement on the employers' wish to do so. Remember workplace surveillance is common anyway; which financial institution does not record employees' phone calls (and it does deter certain wrongdoings).
I have a cam set up at home, which I use to see my child while at work. When my child is at school, I almost never turn on the cam to spy on my helper, whom I'm largely happy with and can generally trust with or without a cam. From the helper's perspective, and in a realistic sense, however, I cannot say for sure whether she'll perform/behave the same way with or without a cam. Though she knows that I'm not constantly watching her (the cam has an indicator light when turned on remotely), a normal employee would probably pay more attention to her performance/behavior when she knows there is a cam. I don't need to rely on that piece of incentive, but some employers may have to.
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No camera will make me trust someone I don't feel comfortable with in the first place.
"A lot of new moms, like the OP, have to leave their babies with a helper whom they have not got sufficient opportunity to know well enough to fully trust."
I stay at home now, but when our girls were only a few months old, they were left in the care of our nanny in the US. My wife worked full time (3 months maternity leave at her company) and I traveled more than 50% of the time. And yet we trusted her.
"Yes people can improve, but realistically a lot of the mundane workers probably remain so for their career. Again this is the case in any industry. And this not purely about the employers' management and training skills. So statistically, there MUST be a lot of DH employers, like other employers, who have to settle with helpers that are not quite satisfactory/cannot be fully trusted on their own."
I would never settle for a helper I couldn't trust completely. Why would anyone do that with the vast pool of candidates in existence? Keep looking.
Also calling them "mundane" makes you automatically assume they are not performing an important job. On this subject many of helpers have university degrees.
"Axptguy38, I think you might have missed a point here. If I remember from your prior posts, you stay at home and you are fortunate to have a fantastic helper. Other people, however, may well be in a quite different situation."
I really don't think I have missed the point. We hired a fantastic helper yes. But if she wasn't trustworthy we would have fired her and hired another one. Saying some helpers are not 100% trustworthy is not good enough. Find a better helper!
"From the helper's perspective, and in a realistic sense, however, I cannot say for sure whether she'll perform/behave the same way with or without a cam."
Then why do you still employ her?
I think fundamentally you are afraid of not being in full control. While understandable, at some point you have to let go of that illusion. You will never be able to protect your children 100%. Some risk must be accepted.
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mayo
13 yrs ago
I say if it makes you more comfortable go for it. I think implicit trust in employees is overrated, it implies that one's ability to read another's character is infallible.
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axptguy38, it does not seem all that helpful to the discussion if you pick piecemeal words from my posts to attack. I'm sure you can see from my whole message that:
1. I'm generally happy with my helper and largely trust her. I myself use the cam to see my child, and I almost never turn it on when my child is not home; i.e., I don't spy on my helper (I cannot anyway since the cam is only in the living room where she rarely stays during the day). So I'm afraid the reality does not support your conclusion about me being a control freak.
2. When I said "I cannot say for sure whether she'll perform/behave the same way with or without a cam", I was just speaking about my sense of the mentality of a normal employee; it doesn't mean I don't trust my helper or feel unsafe. How many employees in the world behave exactly the same way whether or not under the eyebrow of their boss? The difference is, some will still perform to a satisfactory level without being monitored (such as my helper I believe), while others barely do the job unless being monitored. That's why I said I don't need that piece of incentive but others may need to.
3. I think we do disagree as to whether a cam can help some employers in their management of their helpers. To me, at least it can help in some cases. When you don't yet have sufficient time to know your helper well enough (but have to go back to work), you can see your helper's work through the cam to further understand her, just as if you were still at home. The result could be, if you are lucky, after a few more months' watching, you are sufficiently happy with her and don't need to use the cam any more. Some people may get extremely happy with their helper in 3 days, while some may need several months or a year; are we going to judge for everybody how long is sufficient for each?
4. I agree that if I cannot trust my helper working on her own then I would by all means try to change to another one. However, I realize that in practice some people may be constrained in doing so for various reasons said before. Moreover, you cannot say that every employer will definitely be able to find a good helper as long as they keep trying. By calling some employees (not helpers specifically) "mundane" I was not assuming anyone's job is unimportant; I was assuming in any industry there are employees that can stay in the industry without being so good (but not so bad as to be kicked out). And this is not a totally transparent and efficient market; while there are good helpers looking for a job and employers hungry for good helpers, they don't always meet each other. For each employer we can say we should all try to find the good ones, but STATISTICALLY there will be people who have to settle with the mediocre ones. For those that have to, they are not talking about trust; they are talking about monitoring their employees to get the work done. That's not the best working relationship, but what a perfect world we'll have if everybody can trust everybody else? I know my work e-mails and phone calls are being monitored by my company, and I'm not offended by them "not trusting me".
5. I got your point about you leaving your babies with a Nanny in the U.S., though I think you won't debate the difference between a professional nanny and an ordinary helper (some of whom may be just as good as a nanny but not all). If the OP got a nanny from Rent-A-Mom or somewhere, I guess she'd be much more relaxed. Also, I think there's a thing called "Nanny Cam" in the U.S., too (though you probably chose not to use it)? And if I'm right, a cam is nothing new in daycares in the U.S. Of course you could think that if you don't trust a daycare then go look for another one. . . Point is, the fact that it's widely requested by parents and provided by daycares at least shows it's not a crazy/objectionable/offensive idea for parents to want to see how their children are doing in the hands of caregivers.
6. All in all, my whole point is, no matter what you or I prefer or think right, we should not easily pass judgment on others, who have their own situation and constraints. I fully see your point about the importance of establishing a trust relationship with your helper, and everybody agrees that's the best scenario. What I don't agree is that you seemed to think (apologize if I got you wrong) that a cam is an absolutely bad idea in any case, no matter what the employer's situation is, or that anybody who resorts to the use of a cam is somehow a problematic employer that either does not know how to find a good helper or does not know how to manage a helper or a control freak. Employers of helpers, or employers/parents in Hong Kong, are not the only ones that use monitoring devices.
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axptguy38, from the previous posts you've contributed you seem to have a pretty relaxed approach to life in general and you are cool with tolerating a certain amount of risk when it comes to your children (calculated in your opinion to be reasonable). Thing is, others have a different assessment of the risk which is tolerable for their children. No one way is correct for everyone. In the case of the OP she is soliciting opinions from others as to why they did or didnt put in a camera.
I don't think putting in a camera automatically assumes you do not trust your helper or that you are such a poor read of character that you need a camera to monitor. I am in general happy with my helpers. They do a great job but still as I work, there are things that they would not automatically know that I have been able to pick up and correct through watching via my cameras. Examples:
1. They were emptying the water from the mop pail into the kitchen sink where my veggies and plates are washed instead of into my laundry sink. There was no malice involved and I am sure they do this back home, however this is NOT acceptable from a hygiene point of view for me.
2. They dress my DC because it is FASTER despite the fact that I have asked them to let her do it for herself. Again, this does not come from an angle of malice but from trying to be efficient in the short term but resulting in long term inefficiency (child can't get dressed herself until she is much older). I'm certain you really dont expect that a helper should be let go for something like this.
3. The helpers taste the food with the ladle used to cook it and then swirled it in without washing it. Unacceptable. Perhaps they did this back home, but they are not going to do it in my home for my family.
ENd of the day, I can't sit down and go through with my helpers every single activity that goes into taking care of a home and children, particularly when we are from different cultures with different upbringings and many things can not be taken for granted. I can go through the bigger issues like what to do in the even of an emergency, or the sleeping schedule for my infants but would you expect a helper to intuitively know to close doors so as not to blow the A/C bill? Or to sort the whites from the coloured clothing in the washing machine?
If the intent behind the camera has no malice then cameras can help you run your home the way in which you see fit esp when you work.
Finally, Miao maio is right. The majority of workers in any field where there is ZERO chance for advancement are mediocre, as they have no real impetus to be a 'star'. The truth of the matter, helpers do an important job that many are qualified for, but in some ways, sad as it is, it is a deadend job. I feel for my helpers, I would not want to be working somewhere where I had no chance of being promoted, able to challenge myself. Sure, we all want the star helpers, I have met a few and one of my helpers is pretty much close to a star, but for the rest, they need to be taught step by step how to do the helpers job up to one's standard.
I also agree, a camera will not help with the truly bad helpers, these need to be not hired or fired as soon as there is a sign of trouble.
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yon
13 yrs ago
PuiK.. It's just hard being a working mom and not be able to trust the heler... I have seen few footages on tv re horrible things being captured as other paid adults watch the kids. NOT that that's what going to happen. but how would they have found this out if it wasn't for that??
There's nothing illegal about putting up a camera in your own house. and if the helper is a mother as well, she should/would understand your uneasiness for leaving the child.
We wouldn't know if she's a good one or bad one if you weren't monitoring her. Even if that wasn't the main reason for actually putting the camera up. You don't want to find out AFTER something bad happens that she turned out to be a bad helper!
Just do it now. If you KNOW already she's not a good helper then get rid of her. But if she's ok and you have no reason to believe she's bad, put it up for monitoring the baby. Even day cares now have that service so you can check up on your baby. Maybe you can even catch a first turn on tummy action, you would'v e missed if it weren't for the camera.
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How much time do you all spend watching your webcams instead of working?
I think it must take a lot of time or cause a great deal of distraction to your working day. I assume those, with the cameras set up to monitor their helpers, must be all self employed in a very slow business.
In a post above the poster watches the helper mop the floor and then watches what she does with the dirty water or watches her child get dressed and admits this takes a long time.
I must be a bad employer becuase if I saw my staff sitting at their desk looking at webcams monitoring the mopping of a floor, I would be having a serious chat about why I shouldn't be the one paying them to watch their webcam.
(Today I am home - not working)
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
1) I haven't hired my helper for very long. Just a few months. Isn't that such a short time to know if i can trust or not trust her for taking care of the baby? What choice do i have if i have to go back to work?
How am i supposed to know if i will be able to trust the next one if i fire her? I like her, but liking her and trusting her with a newborn is totally a different issue. I wouldn't even say i can trust myself - but i just have to deal with it.
2) Yes that's right i won't be able to stare at the monitor the whole time. I already mentioned it on my post. What if somthing happened to the baby like for eg when i come back home i found a bruise on the forehead and as usual helper often says "oh i don't know it was like that before" at least i can go thru the tape to see what's going on? I think.
3) The reason i put this post up becuase i am not sure what to do after i go back to work.
4) The helper had 2 kids herself but she already mentioned that she never took care of them. I sent her to classes to learn the skills.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
Bob - yes i am self empolyed. And that's why i would want to go back to the office after the 1st month.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
Lagrue - You are saying exactly what i meant. I said earlier - there is no right or wrong but maybe in the helper's mind it's right and in my mind that's wrong. I just want to point it out when i see it and it's nothing to do with trusting or not trusting. I just want her to do it my way. That doesn't lead to firing her either.
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Thoroughly agree with madtown - get help!
Your child is the most important item in your home and how you could even consider leaving it with someone in whom you do not have COMPLETE trust is totally beyond me. Let's face it you had 9 months warning before this child arrived and that was lots of time to go through as many helpers as necessary in order to find the one in whom you can place complete trust and your child.
Do you think a creche would allow you to put in a webcam to watch your child?
Also, if you were my employee I would not be happy thinking I was paying you to watch your child on my time - should your employer trust YOU?
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i don't understand how this post has taken such as turn and deteriorated to nearly personal attack . . . couldn't people be more constructive to a woman who is about to/has just given birth?
she's seeking opinions. couldn't people comment in a constructive instead of arbitrary manner? it's one thing to tell the OP what you think is the better approach, and it's another to go beyond that to say/imply that yours is the only single right way and whoever that does things differently from you are simply wrong or stupid?. most of my posts on this forum were aroused by this type of attitude on various topics.
as to the last few posts, Puik you can largely ignore them. rude as they were, some of the comments are obviously against what's going on in the real world.
we've said it again and again that so many employees around the world in so many industries are being monitored, including myself, and I'm not looking to screw up my employer in everyway possible because i understand that the monitoring is nothing personal and there's a legitimate concern as a professional matter.
i don't know to how many people it'll work financially to start paying for a helper 9 months before the first baby arrives just to test the helper.
day care is almost unheard of in HK, but check out US, UK, etc. and see how many there have webcam for parents to see their kids.
finally, i'm glad that the above posters are not my employer. again you were passing judgment on people without know the nature of every one's job and how we manage our time. for me, i watch my cam during lunch time, or when i have down time during the day (my work is transaction-based so sometimes i work overnight while sometimes i have little to do), or, if i don't have time to watch at work, i can play some tape after work (though i rarely do). my boss never had a single issue with it. the nature of my work is all about the deliverable, so nobody cares how i do it as long as i deliver the result before the deadline. it's not like i'm looking after a baby whose parents are anxious to know what's going on with her but have no other easy means than a cam.
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yon
13 yrs ago
Is it just me or do people not notice the cams ALL OVER THE PLACE at work places (except bathrooms) they are in the hall way and also in the offices. They are in elevators shops restaurants. they are EVERYWHERE. and there is a thing called security room with people who are hired full time to monitor these videos. (well not all but most)
We are talking about a BABY not some good or our personal belonging.
A baby who can't tell you if the helper is there doing what she's paid to do.
yes of course there's a reasonable expectations.
but really.
NEW EMPLOYEE. NEW BABY.
A full right to a video. yes with full right that the new helper knows this is happening. It is also good for her because she doesn't need to verbalized or recount every little detail with excuses if she's got nothing to hide.
geez. some people forget what's MORE important.
again, if I were to choose between MY BABY'S WELL BEING and a hurting someone's feelings, I'll choose my baby's well being.
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100% agree with you Yon, also if the helper is unsure about anything she can speak to and show Mum while she is at work,ie. if the baby develops a rash! it helps both ways, also mum can see babies first smiles and first steps etc.
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"if you are putting up a camera because you don't trust your helper 100% to do the "correct" thing... then maybe she shouldn't be your helper? maybe you should look for a helper whom you CAN trust to do what you've asked them to do and how you've asked them to do it."
cara, if the earlier posts of various posters have also been phrased in this manner, most of the earlier arguments could have been dispensed. these are good opinions that i've said again and again that i completely agree with.
however, i'm sure you can tell the difference between telling people what one thinks is better and what has worked for that person, and passing arbitrary judgment on what everybody should be doing regardless what different situation others may have. why do people have to put their comments in such tone like "anybody who . . . is simply . . .", "there is simply no way to . . ."?
"each and every opinion that has disagreed with you has be responded to with long posts telling us why we are wrong."
long posts are probably just my style, as i'm trying to be balanced and offer my detailed reasoning. i've thought that's more helpful to the discussion than comments using "simply . . .". apologize if that bothers anybody. and what i thought/said was wrong was not the various opinions about whether or not it's advisable to set up a cam, but those that imply that whoever does set it up is somehow a bad employer. when someone recommends a more relaxed management style on helpers, that's almost never wrong as long as it works for that person's particular situation. however, if others want to demonstrate that the same style may not work for everybody, it normally takes longer posts to explain because it'll easily attract attacks about being a bad employer, etc.
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I agree with miao miao 100%, the attacks have started to get personal. Cara I have never had a problem with your posts, and even though axpatguy comes from a different angle to me, I still don't take issue with his comments BUT the below posters...judge for yourself.
Brindle
Also, if you were my employee I would not be happy thinking I was paying you to watch your child on my time - should your employer trust YOU?
(making huge assumptions about the integrity of mothers who out of concern or a desire to see their children via a DECLARED camera = unreliable, untrustworthy employee, assumption number 2 that the watching is done on someone else's time )
bob the builder
I assume those, with the cameras set up to monitor their helpers, must be all self employed in a very slow business. (a pot shot at some one's line of work)
I must be a bad employer becuase if I saw my staff sitting at their desk looking at webcams monitoring the mopping of a floor, I would be having a serious chat about why I shouldn't be the one paying them to watch their webcam. (I can't even comment on this lame post)
Look I'm not here to educate anyone on how to contribute nicely to a post where the OP is asking for reasons why or why not someone would install a camera. There is no need to attack and start up your insulting and bullying tactics. State your point and don't get personal.
Finally, as has been pointed out time and time again, I could not think of the millions of tasks that go into running a home, I do that intuitively when I am off but a helper is not you, and if you are a stay at home mom, sure you can pick her up on it pronto. For those of us who are out of the home for work or other commitments (volunteer work, caring for elderly as in some of my local friends) then a camera can help you notice and correct things when you are not there.
Do I trust my helpers 100%, of course, otherwise there would be ZERO way I would leave my children with her. Do I think they know how to do things the way that I like and that they have the same understanding about hygiene as I do when they start working in my home -NO.
Anyway, PUIK, you can post this question on other more friendly websites where you'd get still get the balanced view without all the nastiness. Send me a PM if you want suggestions as to where to go - I won't post it here as the unpleasantness may just follow us.
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Cara, thanks. I've always enjoyed your posts. At times I've agreed with what you have posted at others times not (on this and other threads), but I always respect what you bring to the table and the WAY in which you do it. I'm glad you are a child educator - I hope our next generation can all be opinionated, fair and KIND.
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yon
13 yrs ago
Yes Trust is a big factor. But we are all human beings and we make mistakes and sometimes we do things that are not in our best judgement. and sometimes we don't learn from them quite as urgently as we'd like.
I think it's important that it is monitored because IF they are taking advantage of the freedom or have no accountability then you MIGHT have more chance of being sorry.
yes maybe you might get your things stolen or what not. or maybe not. and maybe those things are not as important. but it's better to be safe in terms of the well being of your child then be sorry.
listen, in theory it makes sense that we must trust our helpers. and i agree. I think it's perfectly ok to not have a monitoring system set up because most of the THINGS are not important.
but If I'm leaving my child everyday, all day, who cannot tell me what's going on, I will consider putting the video.
there's an exception to all the rules. just to blindly trusting your helper is kind of setting yourself up for problems. problems which you might be sorry for. REALLY SORRY for.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
I showed this thread to my hubby yesterday and he has asked me so where I'd like to put the cam. He's said that when something happens most of the time it would happen in the bathroom when she washes the baby or in the baby room where the cot is. But we can't put cameras all over the place becoz that's just insane. I totally agree with him. As I said many times before- I DO NOT want to put any cam but I don't want myself to feel sorry after that. I had an experience in the office where ive lost my iPhone and I regretted that I didn't set up a cam. It was too late and don't forget that was an iPhone and this is a newborn.
Some of you said here what if my boss decided to have a cam in the office to watch us. I honestly don't really care if I do my job in the office.
Cara u said I'm already decided to have a cam set up- I'm sorry if I'm decided that already I wouldn't post my thread here from the start. I'm just asking for my opinion n options. So tell me what would u do if u came home one day and 'felt' that ur child couldn't hear with one side of the ears? And ur helper said to u 'I don't know mum'. Then the doctor asked u when did this happen and how did this happen? Do u just go home and fire your helper and is that the end of the story?
This is something I worry about. Not the way how she wipes the table or mops the floor!
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
My newborn hasn't been born yet it will be in a day or 2.
And I'm not considering having a cam in the bathroom.
I just think after smth happen and I will have to sit her down, do a 1 or 2 hours of conversation with her to try to get her to tell things which she may not even know herself (she could be in the kitchen when my child falls). I may as well watch the video to find out myself.
At the end of the day- she's a stranger who happens to be my employee. I can't blame her becoz sometimes accident happens and I just want to know how it happened. I trust her with my dog I have never thought abt having a cam to watch her with my dog.
Thx for input.
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PuiK
13 yrs ago
Cara- ok so if she still says 'I don't know ma'am' then u would fire her?
So what happens after I fire her and then hire a new maid? By then I need to go back to work so how am I gonna find out if I can entirely trust this new person? What should I do then?
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Cara, my pleasure :) wouldn't say it/post it if I didn't mean it.
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what would you have done years ago when the technology wasn't available to do this?
if you hire any person to work for you in whatever environment it's up to you to do the ground work in ensuring they know exactly what their job is and levels of performance required. they shouldn't be random strangers in your house (quote from an earlier poster but don't want to finger point), but should have been carefully selected and vetted.
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Well put mrcynic. Know the person you are hiring.
Today's technology allows us to monitor things we never could half a century ago. Is this really better? Why do we now seem to trust machines more than we trust human beings? Life contains some risk. Accept it and you will be happier.
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yon
13 yrs ago
I'm curious. How well can you know the person you are hiring. Do you REALLY think you would know that so well that you can completely trust them? Do you know their background, in terms of their behavior? Do you know their childhood background? Do you know their family? Do you know what their friends would say about them? Do you know what their weaknesses are? What level of patience do they have? What ticks them off?
You do know statistically the child predators are the people that we trust and know. They have avg physique avg face and they all seem nice. I'm not saying helpers are predators. But most of the time we get burned by the people that we don't think will hurt us. I'm not saying our helpers are predators. But I'm using this as an example.
This is a different world we live in. We have technology to help us because things do happen. we are not trusting the machines! we are trusting what we see using the machines.
life contains some risk, definitely. with other things I will accept that risk. but as a responsible parent who have no choice to leave the house to a stranger, some might be happier to be able to monitor the child who cannot speak.
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Puik, i think you've seen enough opinions on this topic to assist you in your decision. The comments canbe roughly divided into two camps:
1. People who are very happy with their helpers and/or are willing to take more risk in the management of their house/children;
2. People who are less certain with their helpers and/or have a more conservative risk profile and/or are more hands on in the management of their house/children.
At the moment it seems that you fall within the 2nd camp; if so and if you think using a cam will help you then go for it but let your helper know beforehand. Again I would suggest you ignoring those comments which are rude or making arbitrary judgment of you.
In a thread like this, it could have been more constructive if every commentjust nicely share their own experience and tell people what has/has not worked for him/herself, but stop short of flatly stating/implying what everybody should be doing. For instance, camp 2 may want to avoid judging camp 1 as being irresponsible/blindly confident, and by the same token camp 1 should not label camp 2 as being mean/harsh/control freak, etc, all simply because we take a different view on a matter which has no absolutely right a wrong answer.
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That's no problem cara. The lists were not intended to be exhaustive or accurate; there are many more reasons why people do or do not use cams. By hands on I was referring to some of the above posters who would like to know relatively more details in how their helpers do the work; I wasn't implying parents without a cam don't care about their kids. Again I'm very against making assumptions or judgement about others so you can be assured that's not my intent.
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Puik, If you are concern with your baby, I would suggest that you ask your helper to put full time attention on your baby while you are at work. If you could afford it, hire part time helper to do household chores and let your DH care for your baby.
Household work requires a lot of effort and time. Caring for babies requires full time attention especially when the baby starts to crawl (more than 5 mos old). If your DH do both chores (tending the baby and household works), then the rate of accidents may be higher.
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Taking care of babies, even when they start to crawl, in no way requires full time attention. That's a modern idea. I would even go so far as to say that giving full time attention all the time can lead to a very needy child; not an uncommon problem in HK.
Ask your grandmother. She probably had 2-6 kids, cleaned the house, did the groceries and cooked. Heck, my wife's grandmother had 5 kids, did all the housework and rented out two furnished rooms in her home with meals included!
Of course you can't just leave the kids all alone but certainly a helper (or parent for that matter) can do housework while taking care of a baby. Our helper took care of a six month old and a two year old. She still managed to clean the house and cook. The trick is to childproof so that the kids can hang out in, say, the kitchen or the living room and she doesn't have to watch them 100% of the time. When she cleaned she just took the kids with her around the house so she could keep an eye on them. When she went to the grocery store she took them with her.
A good helper who works hard can handle it no problem.
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Axptguy, I'm sure your wife's grandmother had helping hands in raising her kids.
For some unlucky DH, their employers require them to look after the baby at night (ie. nighttime feedings). This results in sleep deprivation and can make her tasks like household chores and errands into ordeals as she has less energy and can't concentrate on her work. she also needs to take care of the baby during the day. If you have a part time helper to do the housework and a DH to take care of the baby, then the problem of an overworked person could be avoided.
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Asking the DH to work at night as well as during the day is not a nice thing to do. She is an employee, not a slave.
"Axptguy, I'm sure your wife's grandmother had helping hands in raising her kids. "
Actually most of the time she did not. Of course the older kids could help after a few years.
I'm not saying babies and toddlers aren't a lot of work, just that many families in modern countries have this weird belief that if you have young children in the house you need to give them 100% of your time and have no time to do other things. That's just not true. As mentioned our helper had no problem with a baby and a toddler all day while doing cooking and cleaning. She also managed to go to the playground every day.
As mentioned you need to childproof. Most importantly you need to leave the kids to play by themselves without hovering. It's very healthy for them.
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When she cleaned she just took the kids with her around the house so she could keep an eye on them.
This part I agree with, children do have excessive amounts of attention these days, esp in Hk where there are helpers, and perhaps a degree of 'mommy guilt' for working such long hours and not being able to be around more.
When she went to the grocery store she took them with her. I think this is pretty tough on the helper. I take my children out on the weekends to do a bit of shop and it is tough work, one in the bjorn and the other one walking -and I drive o the supermarket. I still find it difficult to hang onto the grocery bags and one child with the other strapped to me. I'm not sure this is a function of whether the helper (or any person for that matter) is a good one or not. Its pretty difficult.
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yon
13 yrs ago
I agree. when they are at a certain age, where they get into everything and they do not know the natural consequences, it is very important that they are monitored ALL THE TIME. but when they do get older, like 3 or 4, no need to have constant monitoring. or if there's couple of siblings, it would be nice to have more help.
I have been without a helper for a while with 3 kids all under 8. it is very hard to cook/clean and maintain and household and be there for my kids. i have always appreciated having help. keeps me sane and much happier mom/wife/person.
Depending on the number of kids and the ages, you should consider getting a second help. not all children need monitoring.
but we are off the topic.
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Puik, you are one sick cookie, are you sure you are responsible enough to have a child? If you doubt that your helper can be trusted, stop working and do the job yourself! As noted by others, how would you like it if there were hidden cams in your office watching your every move?
Does the helper use the same bathroom you intend to put cams? Potential problem there!
Does you boss know you intend to spend half the day spying on your helper on the webcam when you are supposed to be working? I suggest that you consult mothers choice!
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yon
13 yrs ago
Wow!!! Whitemischief! Please read all post BEFORE you post.
She's NOT going to put camera in the bathroom. that's not what she was saying.
Also, as others have noted, not everyone can afford to stay at home and raise children. and she also mentioned she will let her helper know that she will be setting up camera. you obviously have not experienced horrible helpers, especially the ones who have a great facade but completely different person when employers not around.
Let's try to be respectful because i'm sure you wouldn't attack like this if you met us face to face. i believe online forums are no exception.
thank you.
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Sorry ladies, the whole concept is twisted and sick, if you think this is respectful, please tell us then that you would have no objection to scrutiny by spy cams at your place of work? Or are these devices only necessary for domestic workers?
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Well put Whitemischief. Helpers are first and foremost employees. They should be treated as such. With respect and dignity.
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Whitemischief sums up my feelings on the matter: if you're not prepared to trust someone else to look after your child, then you should do it yourself or not have a child in the first place.
I would not want my every move monitored by an actively monitored camera - it is demeaning and a gross invasion of privacy.
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