Posted by
JHP
10 yrs ago
Hello World,
OK, so 1 cognac down... here is the scoop:
Our Helper has been behaving oddly - playing games, etc. Her work is OK and she is proficient. I need her help for several personal reasons, but find her recent antics stressful. This morning, I secretly recorded our conversation (bc she is a game-player) and had a sit-down with her.
She told me "I want you to fire me". and asked "why don't you fire to me?" and "... it is just all up to you. You fire me, it is ok". She also freely admitted she is unpleasant to me and said she wanted to leave and was unhappy but would not resign.
I repeatedly told her I don't want to fire her... just wish we could have a good relationship again and for harmony.
1) is she just looking to get $ for getting fired?
2) can I submit this to govt as proof she should be black-listed as a helper here, etc?
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If she wants to leave, ask her to write a letter of resignation, what ever you do don't fire her, she probably has some ulterior motive for her behaviour.
Your helper might be one of those who wants to be fired to gets more frequent visits to Fils, some do this because they know the employer has to pay the air fare home.
Also, she may be asking to be fired, so that she can claim unfair dismissal, and seek compensation by taking you to a tribunal.
You could perhaps ask the HK Imm office for their advice on your situation, they may have a record of her behaving like this with other employers, tell them she has been asking you to fire her.
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What's wrong with asking to be released? She has her own reasons. Maybe she's got her visa for Canada or some other western country or whatever. It's your choice still.
If she has been with the OP for more than 5 years then it's obvious that she wants the long service pay. She knows that if she resigns, she won't get it. This may be the real reason.
In addition, I don't buy the reason that helpers want to be fired to earn some money. They spend more looking for a new employer. (The fees, the amount of time waiting without pay, etc.)
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"I need her help for several personal reasons, but find her recent antics stressful."
Please specify. What did really happend here you didnt tell the whole story.
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The HK immigration recently tightened controls over helpers who break contracts and hop from one job to another.
If the emoployers fire a helper, it is easier for them to get visa for the next job (if they have already secured another job) compared to her breaking contract.
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JHP
10 yrs ago
Thank you for your good points Susie1. I do worry abt why she wants to be terminated... What are the implications, etc.
Hi Punter, Yes, she is of course free to leave at any time and would be paid fairly, etc if she resigns or I were to terminate. I will follow the law and I am compassionate. My concern is whether anyone has heard of similar situations? The law is meant to protect both parties and contracts are made so ppl can make plans and adjustments. As I said, I have personal needs for the help now and wish she would either give notice, or agree to leave immediately without bonus one month pay.
She has only been with us 8/9 months. She is a vey average helper... Nothing exceptionally strange or special. No blow-ups or meltdowns, etc. She has ups and downs like we all do. I like her enough and have no plans to fire her. I would accept her resignation, but she refuses to give and keeps asking me to fire her. She is 48 and says she wants to go home. I offered paid holiday (even though she just has one in February.
... Anyway, I'll make an appointment with immigration next week to ask. Aside from the $5,000 to terminate, I worry there is another motive on her part perhaps.
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As an employer of a domestic helper myself, I suggest that you ask her to give you a letter of resignation as a one month notice if she wants to be paid her final salary as well. In lieu of notice, if she resigns, she won't get paid her salary. I suggest you play the safe and better side. After you go to Immigration Department and have heard their advice, tell her that you have consulted them regarding the matter so she'll think twice about doing anything stupid.
And Susie1, I do not think it's proper to specifically mention Fils (I presume for Philippines or Filipinos) because not all Filipino helpers are the same. In every ethnicity, there are good people as there are not so good ones. Let's be careful about our words so we won't be judged for discrimination. We won't like it if others do the same thing to us.
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JHP
10 yrs ago
Good points cara and churvaloo.
At the end of the day, it's probably better to just pay the extra month and be done with her and her games. My husband returns from his business trip tmrw and I am curious to see if she tells the same story to him or twists it around - not knowing I recorded it.
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why don't you tell her she is a free agent and free to resign any time she likes. If she goes on and on about 'you fire me', tell her that as she is the one who wants to leave then she should draft the letter of resignation/pay you our a month.
Let her know that immigration is cracking down on this sort of behaviour and that you have 'evidence' of her deliberate attempts to get fired (without mentioning what it is) and then see what she does. As it is, start to document stuff she is doing that is insolent and hand her a written warning in front of someone ?a friend ?the management people, then when you get rid of her you can fire her for gross misconduct.
Don't forget if you serially have on your record that you terminate a number of helpers you may not be able to hire again.
Good luck with your situation
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Given the additional information, I suggest the OP give her helper a 2-month notice (or 1-month notice) depending on the OP's needs (i.e. looking for a new helper and waiting for the new helper to report for work).
This one or two months of notice is legal (the minimum requirement is 1 month).
For example, if the notice is given today (April 28, 2014), you could state in the notice that her employment is terminated effective June 30 and she will leave your household on July 1, 2014.
During the notice period the helper continues to work for you and you continue to pay her normal salary. At the end of the notice, there is NO MORE extra month salary.
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punter don't you think her behaviour will escalate in your suggested 2 months. As it is she is playing games and acting up. Seriously, I want a relaxed vibe in my home rather than having to micromanage someone who is trying to get fired and get her one month's pay without working for it.
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Report the incident to Immigration to blacklist such game players who would be intensively taken cared of under the newly tightened measures by Immigration and Consulates.
Actually, it is free for the helper to choose rather than playing such stupid games. If not fit, just be happy to discuss and return to home country for a different type of careers.
Poor human nature (applied to all ethnics), when you get 1, you want 2 but don't want to pay the additional cost.
Be fair and true to the one so worshiped every week and act in a righteous way.
Shame on such behaviour.
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That is why I said "depending on the OP's needs". Each family's need is different. And each family handles things differently.
How are you going to handle it Lagrue? I'm sure the OP will appreciate hour suggestion.
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I already have done that in my first post on this thread. I would do exactly as I have written.
In general, I have been extremely fortunate with my helpers with the exception of the first one I employed when I was 'too soft' and took bad advice, and was subjected to a helper skimming the grocery bills. Now I start off with very strict house rules and am very generous after a time. I have had no problems since.
Good will goes both way. Employer to employee, and vice versa.
For this helper, I stand by what I say. I wouldn't keep her for 5 minutes longer. I understand punter you are saying dependent on your needs, but the OP has already said that she is willing to let go if she wants to go, but doesn't understand why she wants to be fired. But I think it's pretty obvious this helper wants to be apid out and excuse her form the liability of breaking a contract. I don't know why the OP has to shoulder this entire responsibility.
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Maybe she is aware of the new rule and therefore wants you to fire her. It seems on this forum a lot of people just say fire the helper, pay her a months wages etc but don't let her stay in your house. This is totally unfair to the next employer who might not have the time or money to do the same and basically tells the helper she got away with it.
Unrelated though I do not believe in the live-in rule but cannot offer any new ideas. And even though I have a full size maids room with bathroom (my laundry area) I employ a part time maid and even though she is nice and a fab cleaner 98% of the last 6 months 4 days a week 6 hours a time appointments have been late so the grass is not always greener especially for those with small children who rely on punctuality. Good luck
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Just let her break by herself and face the consequence.
Or warn that if same sentence re-say again, you had already and you will report to Immigration with termination based on substandard performance and non compliance with no need to pay for the 1 month compensation.
Effective to people trying to play games. Face the endgame of their own.
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Peds
10 yrs ago
If she wants out then just resign, ask her for her resignation and just go through usual process.
Take note that its her who wanted to be out and not you.
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The thing is, would you retain a helper that doesn't have the heart to work for you? She already wants to resign. I suspect the quality of her work suffers also and even if you retain her now, you'll eventually fire her. So why not look for another helper now, find out when that helper will come, then fire this one? Immigration reads what you write as the reason for breaking the contract. You just tell them that the helper told you to fire her, then the quality of her work suffered and you had no choice but to do as she wanted. Get her to sign that.
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Oh this is obvious: She has a new job lined up at much higher pay but due to Immigration's crackdown, she can't resign. She needs you to fire her to get the new visa. Shady.
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JHP
10 yrs ago
So, this all concluded a few days ago. Here is what happened:
Once my husband was home, we all talked and I had a resignation letter prepared for her to sign. I gave her two options 1) 30-day notice and collect $ for May or 2) leave immediately and only collect $ for April (conversation was April 29). She chose 30-day notice and we signed her forms, she signed ours, etc.
THEN, within one moment, she said she wanted to leave the next day and would not actually stay 30-days. I told her that she was welcome to leave and in fact, at this point I wanted her to just go and that I would be reporting her to the Immigration/Labor Dept for 1) trying to induce termination and asking to be fired repeatedly and 2) refusing 30-day notice after getting signed document, etc.
THEN, She then said she would "think of something" to report to the police about me/us (such drama). So, we asked her to pls go to her room for the evening and we called the police to come and make sure that she was unharmed and to escort her from our home. There are many crazy things she could "think of" to claim such as someone came and violated her in the night, she could injure herself and say I did it, etc.
Police came and she said she was fine, but was upset we would not pay $ for May. Police explained that it was her choice to leave early and was therefore not entitled to the add'l month pay. They agreed it was good we asked them to come due to her threat.
THEN, she said she would "think of something" to report to the Labor Dept if we did not pay her an add'l month salary. 10pm and just wanting her out of my house and my life, I got the cash and we made a room reservation for her at Holiday Inn. At that point, her threats seemed disturbing because I already knew her as a master manipulator and game-player. Who knew what she would report and what damage that would have on us. It the end, she was already packed in advance.
We now do not have a helper and I am happy. The entire situation was sad. Perhaps I did not handle it the best way and I wonder if I made her so unhappy that she wanted out. At any rate, that is what happened and it's over now. I tried my best.
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JHP
10 yrs ago
... and just as a side note, we not not dramatic sort of people. It's not my style to call the police, etc. But, once someone says they will "think of something" to report to the police about you and that person is staying under your roof... geez - time to get them OUT immediately with a police escort to make sure they are unharmed and have nothing to report.
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I wouldn't have done it any better. Thanks for sharing.
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Something similar happened to my wife's parents who are locals. This was years ago.
Their helper asked to get fired. Then she claimed abuse and unfair dismisal. In the end they had to settle on an amount. It's pretty much extortion.
Either you give in and pay, or you get dragged through court and your known as a helper abuser, and have all our neighbors gossip about you in the building.
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