DGP,
It seems that you have a rather one-sided view of life as a FDH here. There are many reasons FDH are in Hong Kong, not all purely financially driven. For instance they may be seeking a way to escape marriage in their own country, they may be seeking a foreign husband (and the opportunities this brings) or they may be seeking to have a same sex relationship, something which would be often be impossible back home. Some apparently come here to apply for a foreign country’s visa in a time that is much less than back home. Sticking purely with the financial aspect you raise though - it is possible to work as a FDH in HK and after 4 years have enough money to buy a home in their own country something which can’t be bad can it?
Also you presume that the FDH has no time off during the day, what about the situations where the employers go to work, the kid goes to work and the FDH has the daytime alone? True in some cases there are cameras checking on them but this I believe is not the normal case, most employers expect the FDH to manage their time, complete their tasks and take breaks or relax accordingly. And many FDH I know do go out at night, not necessarily to bars or restaurants or whatever but they go to the shop and hang out with friends. They also use apps to chat with friends or relatives just like non FDH do and listen to radio stations in their own language, it’s not like they have no communication.
One thing to remember is that in HK the family is the legal employer; you may say it is selfish however the employer might worry what the FDH is getting up to and that it is the employer who could later ‘suffer’ should the FDH stay out late at night ie the FDH finds a boyfriend and wants to leave a few months after starting work or gets pregnant and the employer has to pay medical bills and give the FDH time off work.
You also seem to forget that many FDH actually enjoy their work. My FDH enjoys coming out for dim sum or dinner or going to the beach or a BBQ even though she is still in theory working at the time. She loves being involved with the kid’s birthdays. Many times she has asked to come along on family outings on her days off as she does things she might not be able to do by herself whilst also saving money (she does not need to pay for transport or food). And at night she often likes to watch a movie with my family and me.
There are horror stories as to how FDH are treated or abused but thankfully these are rare cases. Some do not work out in their job and suffer financially or otherwise but for the vast majority it is a chance to take a job that requires no formal qualifications and which allows them to achieve or do something that they cannot do back home.
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DGP,
I understand you have interviewed many many FDH however to keep from being biased did you interview a similar number of employers or consular staff? I am talking from my experience and that of FDH I have known not just my helper; I have been in HK more than 20 years, I have friends who have FDH as girlfriends, who have married FDH and in fact although my wife was never a FDH she has extended family who have been or are FDH here. I do know FDH who have saved enough in 4-5 years to buy a home in their own country - the first year they spend 6 months or so paying agency fees etc then after that have very little cash outflow given that they don't pay for food or housing or utilities. Those first 6 months is the real make-or-break period. Go to a village or small town in Philippines or Indonesia and locals can easily point out those homes owned by FDH working in HK.
I cannot agree either that the main reason FDH come to HK is that they cannot find work in their own country - many can BUT it does not pay as well! How much do you think an unskilled job in Philippines or Indonesia pays? Malaysia pays FDH more than say Indonesia, then Singapore then Hong Kong. And like I said above money is not the sole reason why FDH may come here.
It would seem that we don't agree on much of the above issues unfortunately, each to their own, I have commented per your OP request and will leave it at that.
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DGP,
Apologies as I did state above ‘I would leave it at that’ however it seems from your last post that you believe you are right based on ‘facts’ as you see them whilst I am therefore wrong. What I have stated is also based on facts, as I see them, and as my understanding of the issues differs from your understanding you appear to not accept or even give credence to my arguments (which are based on real world ‘facts’).
Incidentally why did you start out with the interviews? Did you start independently or were you sponsored/backed in some manner by an NGO or other party?
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DGP, I am not surprised that no employer/consular official will speak to you, your post is aggressive in tone
"My first question is why are they not allowed to leave their house at night ??
after they have finished work
When you take the min wage in hk at 50 dlrs an hour they do not even come close to this hourly rate at
4000 hkd a month as most work from 8 am some earlier too 9pm at night YOU DO THE MATH thats 72 hours plus a week 288 hours a month to me thats SLAVE LABOUR 13 PLUS HKD AN HOUR .
Sad thing is the hk government do nothing about it .
The abuse they take from some employers is mind blowing and they are afraid to say any thing at all in fear of losing their jobs .
YOU WOULD YOU WORK FOR 14 HKD AN HOUR ??
I also understand they earn more money than working in the phillipines or malaysia
but is not reason to treat them as second class people as they are still human beings
and trying to earn money for their families"
and Greene King who tried to answer your post with his opinion you completely dismissed his comments.
Maybe you want to rethink your approach and reflect on why you are getting the responses you are, sociology research should be undertaken with specific methodology. Going into an interview armed with loaded/rhetorical questions usually gives you a loaded/rhetorical answer!
Good luck with your endeavours!
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DGP,
Also you state in your OP that the minimum wage in Hong Kong is $50, this is incorrect - from 1 May 2013 it was $30 per hour. And it will rise to $32.5 per hour on 1 May 2015. This from the LD web page, link below:
http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/news/mwo.htm
And you failed to calculate as part of the FDH income the fact (that word again!) that the FDH, on top of their $4,110 monthly salary minimum, also receive free food, medical cover and accommodation which in itself could be argued to be worth $1,500 or so per month.
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DGP,
You obviously have strong views on the subject and you probably feel I do however as mentioned above my views are not based on my being an employer rather they are based on having family and friends who are or have been FDH here. Read above and you will see I agree there are horror stories but in most cases its a win- win situation for both employers and employees; I hope your book, which I wish you success with, reflects this true state of affairs. Alarmist calls in my opinion only cause the FDH's own country to clamp down on FDH travelling overseas - Indonesia for instance, is threatening to stop FDH travelling overseas from 2017, if this happens then unskilled Indonesian workers will miss out the chance to obtain a job as a FDH here and thus the opportunity to earn a good wage and a better life..
To help understand a bit more about where you are coming from could you please clarify why did you start out with the interviews? Did you start independently or were you sponsored/backed in some manner by an NGO or other party?
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I can not deny that I have domestic helpers, I can also confirm that I pay them well above the minimum. All my helpers are free to go out in the evening......so I guess you have some sampling problems in your methodology....it would be a shame to put in all your hard work and have it not be generalisable to the Hong Kong population. That is what I meant about using proper methodology to conduct your research. being sponsored by an NGO or going to some shelter for abused helpers is not going to give you an accurate picture of the domestic helper situation in Hong Kong.
Finally, blogging etiquette suggests that if you type in CAPS LOCK then you are shouting. Given you yourself claim you are not 'a stupid reporter or writer' I guess you already knew that and did it on purpose to make some sort of agressive 'statement'.
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DGP,
You state above
' by the way you might want to read this
The Legislative Council has approved the subsidiary legislation relating to SMW. The revised SMW rate of $32.5 per hour will come into force on 1 May 2015. The monetary cap on the requirement of employers recording the total number of hours worked by employees will be revised to $13,300 per month with effect from 1 May 2015.
Not sure what your point is with this comment, $13,300 is not a minimum monthly wage (only the minimum hourly wage exists) rather it is a reporting level of hours worked.
In terms of interviews did you not go to Victoria Park, the 'favorite' Indonesian FDH hang-out? Don't Indonesians make up the largest number of FDH in HK?
Also please (again) could you clarify why did you start out with the interviews? Did you start independently or were you sponsored/backed in some manner by an NGO or other party?
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DGP,
Really? So your 'research' is totally objective, not biased, no hidden agenda or loaded questions? What if the survey said all FDH were happy and content, no need for the NGO? Your OP was not a discussion rather a one-sided rant. That is why it is important. I have no ax to grind but you obviously do. And again did you, in your thousands of interviews, go to Victoria Park? Or did your sponsor have no interest in what the majority of HK FDH have to say?
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To me it is a one sided rant, totally biased. but I understand, we have to keep the sponsors/employers happy! And let's not let real facts get in the way...
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Sorry you are wrong! If I was from SE Asia, with low skills/education and I had the opportunity to work as a FDH for the minimum wage of $4,110 (possibly more) plus food plus accommodation (accommodation must be with employer, the statutory food allowance could be instead of food) then yes I would take the chance. As I mention above such a contract, if the FDH makes it past the 6 or so months necessary to pay agency and other fees and did not spend unnecessarily, allows the FDH to make in 4 or 5 years enough to buy a home.
And that is why HK continues to be the number one desired Asian destination for FDH; surely your own interviews back this?
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The wage is not as low as you would like to sensationally paint it. 4100 plus accommodation (if the helper has her own bedroom this would cost her possibly 2,000 per month in the boarding homes with very basic facilities - most employer's homes would be better than this so ?cost more ?3000 per month ) plus food (another 1000) plus medical expenses (?100 per month) = 7200 per month. No-one is saying that the domestic helper wage doesn't require redress, but it is not as low as you'd like to jump up and down and rage about. It looks much less outrageous for your write up to say 7,200 per month as opposed to 4100 per month, especially to the readers in the UK, US ect.
Listen if you asked a banker if they would take a job paying 15,000 per month as a local driver, they would say no way! As, given their skill set, education and market demand they could command in excess of 100,000hkd per month. Asking Greene King whether he would work for 4,100 as a domestic helper is as a ridiculous argument as asking a banker to work for a local driver's salary. I totally don't get your logic and I fear for the balance of whatever you are attempting to write.
I am not here to tell you how to suck eggs, but if you are bonafide in trying to write a piece that really represents the situation of the Domestic Helper program in Hong Kong, you should enter the investigative process with an open mind. You should read what you have written and think whether it represents a rant or a fair balanced view. Perhaps exploring churches may help you find domestic helper who may be better taken care of, I don't know but methodologically you seem to have some major issues.
Moreover, as an investigative journalist you shouldn't have to be picked up on basic facts, freely available on the internet about the minimum wage in Hong Kong, irrespective of what ever a government official 'told you'.
Also your investigation suggests that domestic helpers prefer other countries but can't get there because of visa reasons. Therefore Hong Kong is not their top destination, they are here because they can't get to their aspirational country. Sure, everyone has aspirations but what they choose on a day to day basis reflects the BEST choice available to them. Hong Kong is the best choice available to the domestic helpers (even better than their own country). End of story.
At the end of the day, I have a feeling you'll write whatever you had in mind to write and will find evidence to back up your preconceived ideas, and it would probably make your NGO happy. I do hope you don't go down that path for your sake, and that you write a cogent, well reasoned, well researched piece. Good luck with that.
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DGP,
Cheap labor compared to say Europe or US? Yes. Compared to most of Asia, no. If HK life for FDH is so bad then why are there 300,000 or so here? The ones I know made a cool and calculating decision to come here – the pay and lifestyle is better than they can obtain in virtually anywhere else in Asia or the Mid East doing a job that is unskilled and requires no formal education. I respect them for their decision and feel it is condescending to treat them as desperate or forced to come here. Do you deny that a FDH in HK can earn in say 5 years enough to buy a home back in their own country? I notice you have not responded to this question.
It seems you also think because HK is 'rich' then FDH should be paid more. To save you some research time note the following:
-approx 300,000 HK residents (excl FDH), around 10% of the workforce, earn the minimum wage. Do the math and that works out around $5,100 pm for a 50 hour week. Of course most don’t get accommodation or food or travel paid to them so they are likely worse off than a FDH in terms of disposable income after these expenses are taken in to account.
-the average (whatever that is) wage in HK is around $14,000 pm. Again not a lot when you need to pay accommodation, food, heating/aircon, food, electricity etc.
Why do I keep going on? You yourself have admitted nothing mentioned by others in this forum will change your opinion on the issue hence why I believe your OP was one-sided and biased, written to mold public opinion to suit the agenda of you and your backer, rather than have a true discussion or debate on the matters.
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DGP,
Your information is almost certainly not objective, as it is most likely achieved from asking strangers loaded questions to substantiate your case. It would seem that you and your backer both have an agenda which is why I understand why you must post what you do.
I trust you will mention my comments in your book? I might even borrow it from the library if you do!
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DGP,
Incidentally I am quite surprised that you state above ‘I think they should be paid what they are worth’. I never expected that you were such a free-market laissez-faire thinker! I have to say though that I can’t agree with you on this issue; the minimum wage for FDH is necessary in order to ensure that FDH are not paid the very low wages which a free market would allow.
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DGP,
Unless I counted wrong it is now 16 posts to you, 13 to me (including this one)...
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reading the previous posts, is some sort of investigative journalism?
DGP, you started this thread to ask questions to gather information for your book, but from what it seems it turned out to be a debate.
You always mentioned that you are could not agree with some of the posts here, i don't think that it is necessary to agree on anything as you are only gathering data. you are being too aggressive in pushing your findings but sadly though i don't think this thread would get you to what you are lobbying for.
(reminds me of an old thread about taking drugs is good, ha ha!)
I strongly suggest to get a hold of some of their (FHD) contracts and base your questions from there, such as salary, holiday, etc etc and air out your concerns most specifically the salary to the who would be in the better or should i say legal position to do so.
Most of the working conditions are solely based on that contract and some may be added or removed which is up to the agreement between the employer and the employee.
lastly, just noticed as well, keep in mind of your grammar when writing your book as from your posts here, it shows that you may need to a hire proofreader.
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and to add, the cases of maids that are being abused are only a small ratio of their whole population here in HK.
Also have you ever known stories that the maids are abusing their employers?
such as: inviting friends in their house when their employers are out of the country, Maids that are lazy, etc etc.
Have you also tried to interview those FDH that are able to go out at night? there are numerous FDHs that live out in boarding houses and are free to do whatever they want.
Seems like your findings are solely based on the FDHs being abused, not being able to live out, and their salary.
Lastly, may we know what your book is all about so all the readers may know as well how broad is your scope about FDHs in HK and why is it just being narrowed down to the aforementioned items.
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it will be proof read any way <<< FYI proof read and any way are properly written as proofread and anyway.
popcorn time!!! this thread would be exciting.
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DGP,
Please base any book on facts for instance:
-minimum wage in own country, FDH wage in Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong
-details of medical cover and travel allowance in Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong
-statutory time off allowed in own country, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong
-‘typical’ hours worked in own country, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong
Wait! I am sure you won’t do this as you and I both know the answers will not suit your agenda, if you disagree maybe post on this forum the above information in an objective manner?
And please remember 80-90% of a FDH income is remitted home rather than spent in the location of employment (after employment fees are paid) so the cost of living in the location of employment is not relevant.
And for the fourth time of asking do you believe a FDH can earn enough money in say 5 years here in HK to buy a home back in her own country? Not sure why you won’t answer this one (actually I do know why…).
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As some may recall, my family is a multinational one , also with relative with the blood of one of the helper's source country. Myself, living with one FDH over 26 years, and other FDHs with younger tenure. I also tried Indonesian, Filipinos, Indians. Being in the field of law, I trust facts rather than opinions.
After opening this thread, I was amused by the hot debate over a claimed writer. I always advocate here, be respectful to each sides ( employer and employees) and the world would be better. Less hatred and more appreciation and everyday you will find pleasure living with each other. That is also the foundation in maintaining the good relationship with the employers/employees, actually to every person around you.
I am not going to reiterate GREENIE KING's, KULAFU's and LAGRUE's very devoted comments backed with facts and examples with so much time injected in response to DGP's view.
Put it simple. Can the writer clarify.
- being not a stupid writer, may I know the organization or work title of the writer? What is the title of the book? I have connection with most of the consulates the writer deemed useful for the fact finding, I sincerely want to help.
- Talking about minimum wage, I was in the drafting process. The subject is for those who earned the citizenship on this land and have the innate responsibility to support their own cost of living, to pay rent, tax, transport, moral and financial support to their senior/junior generations on the same land. We cannot compare orange vs chicken, plants vs animals, they are in two domains.
- in your writing, please clarify that food allowance would be paid only if the employers would not provide / share food with the FDH. Most of the FDH shared the food in monetary term far more than such allowance. Not to mention the cooking utensil and fuel costs arisen from cooking them.
- There are other countries that might have higher surface value of salary but the restriction on FDH , freedom of travel, how difficult the employer could lodge an application for importing a FDH, standard of living in that country (e.g. over 100HKD for a standard McDonald fast food set). All persons are free to go here and there. What is the conclusive choice? How is the market demand and supply?
- Living out has many legislative concern and is banded. If you encounter anyone doing that here, please. Be a responsible journalist, report this to Police or Immigration for by law they are breaching the condition of stay here with custodial sentence and very adverse impact on their future employment here or even migration record to other developed places.
- Which official gave you the wrong figures on minimum rage? As I was in the circle I can help you to clarify or even if you need our service, we can sue one who deliberately present the wrong message with ill attempts.
- How to count the working hours? If there is a robotic life you find. Report this to authorities and help such helpers. If not, how to calculate the cost of living areas, utilities, rent when the FDH is not working (in theory it should be counted).
When writing a book, think about the objective, shame on those would widen the misunderstanding of different races and appreciate if the good writer can direct the readers to have a better understanding or better courses of actions after reading from the book.
If not, I would rather throw the book for recycling or recommend not to spend time to write with wasted effort, as in reality, from legal perspective, "reasonable men" will judge on their mind rather than how you repackage the hidden agenda.
Tried of reading so much grievance, save time for a better tomorrow, for own self and for other better beings.
Do send us the copy of book if it was so written.
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I am not British, in fact I am Asian.
I have had helpers for 12 years now..different nationalities at different times.
By Law, helpers are live in only, that does not mean they work continuously from the time they wake up till they go to bed. Depending on their efficiency, some helpers take 3..4 hours to clean a 1400 sq ft flat, while another could take 6..7 hours to do the same job, I've had both types. There are timings set for cooking generally. They do not continuously work without breaks. If the chores are done, they don't normally restart the same process to work continuously. No employer demands that.
A helper does not spend on anything during the week, except on their day off. All living expenses are paid for by their employer. If getting a meal allowance, then that's extra. If a live out( although illegal) then that is paid for too by their employer. All medical bills are paid for by their employer.
For a minimum wage in HK, people who earn in other jobs, have to pay rental, medical, food, travelling, tax and everything else for themselves and their homes. Many of them also have families ( in HKG) to provide for and their family's expenses too. You do the Maths.
My present helper, has 3 peices of land( Ancestral), 2 houses and is building a third house ( 1 for her Husband and herself, the other 2 houses for her 2 kids) . They own a truck and have a business going. ( we have a joke, that when I retire, I will have to work for her as I have zilch in comparison)
She worked in Kuwait for 4 years and this is her first contract in HK with me. That's just 6 yrs of being a DH, according to her HKG wages and obligations by the Employer are the best compared to the other countries and she has done her research! Except for the Ancestral land, all others have been made/ bought in the last 6 years. Her Husband works in her home country.
Your post threads are unfounded and ridiculous and as the others have mentioned a few times, you refuse to take input from others..you mind is set in its ways and you believe you are the right and everyone is wrong.
As you know of wrongdoings from employers and the helpers are telling you they are ill treated and are being cheated in anyway, do the right thing and help them out...
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This is rather one sided.
$4110 minimum salary.
Accommodation $2000
Food expenses for 3 meals a day say $80
personal hygiene, shampoo, loo paper etc..#200 a month
Laundry say $100 a month
Free medical insurance say $50
No transport costs
and yes, you might grumble she has a tiny room, but 50 percent of people live in public housing.
The reason the maids do not have so much is due to agency loans.
But as someone says, how often do you go work abroad for 10 years and buy a massive house afterwards with a plot of land
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My Indonesia helper told me Hong Kong got the highest wages compared with other Asia country. In Taiwan, DH only allows 1 day off for the whole year.
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DGP,
Looking forward to your masterpiece. Do send us a copy, if there is a genuine one.
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Not sure where OP/DGP is in the process of writing the book, but I would be curious to read a copy at no cost...
That said: OP had 2 questions for the "readers of Asiaxpat":
1. why are they (DH) not allowed to leave their house at night ?? after they have finished work
My response: There is no rule/law I am aware of that DHs are not allowed to leave their house at night after they have finished work. This is between the DH and employer to sort out in their professional and personal relationship. i.e. if DH were to go out until 3am -- does this affect work performance the next day? Will returning home at 3am affect on personal level, as DH is a roommate of the family and may wake up the family? If DH wishes to take a stroll in the evening or go out to shop after work- why not?
2. YOU WOULD YOU WORK FOR 14 HKD AN HOUR ??
My response: No, I would not. Fortunately, neither are DH working for 14 HKD an hour.
I can see where you attempt to calculate this pay rate, but your math is flawed.
I hope my responses help in your writing of your book.
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DGP,
Looking forward to your masterpiece.
Do send us a copy.
If there is a genuine one.
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New here, so my two cents worth, I see both sides of this story, good and bad. I do not have a DH but i know a large group as friends over the last 10 years. SOME (fewer than most ) have what they describe as GOOD working conditions. A good employer a nice place to sleep and reasonable working hours. FEW (a fraction) have a GREAT employer, They are like part of the family and get raises every year. even travel with the family to other countries as necessary. They LOVE the job, MOST, however, is as the supposed writer describes, treated like legal slaves, too afraid to question the Sir or the Ma'am about why they do not follow the contract, why they do not get there 24 hrs off each week, why they work from 6:30am to usually 11pm sometimes later because they are afraid to be dismissed and don't know how to fight for their rights, so they just shut up and take it....when it is their contractual day off they are required to get up feed the family then they can leave, to be back 12 hours later. Beds are rolled mats placed on the floor at night sleeping in the Children room (so the parents don't have to deal with them in the middle of the night) Some beds are make shift closet bunks not long enough to lay flat out on. NO Cell phone use until off duty and then no talking, just texting. And yes, from what MY friends have told me, ALMOST ALL have cameras always looking at them during the day when the employers are off at work. God forbid they take a moment to relax, So MAYBE amongst the xpats the helpers are treated more fairly, but the ones who work for the Chinese families, not so much. My sampling is not of thousands but a cross section of maybe 35 to 40 friends i have met over the years. And yes they send MOST of their earnings home 3000 to 3500hkd to take care of family and children they only see once a year for a week or two, the rest they use for their monthly spending. FWIW
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Some family give salary raise.and.bonus based on good performance.
Immigration requested the FDH should reside at the registered place in contract, and most of the FDH be back home, some still spend on the employer utility such as water, electricity, and even food. Some used the day off for illegal employment or even dirty business in lockhart road with breach of condition of stay dealt with immigration and.courts every month.
Most of the cameras are for child safety and personal security purpose as the person was not blood tied and not known. It is understandable if u can think in another position. Many just let the helper get the job done and actually they are not running like the hamsters in the ball. Especially the average size of flat is small here.
Due to the geoprahically and land price, it is tragically small not only to helpers but also to masters. No matter for Chinese or expats.
Nevertheless, there are still overwhelming numbers of.FDH choose HK, ad starting or stepping stone.to their life long career as.FDH which could also be choosen not to be.
Some bring helpers to trip based on cost and need (so perfer to enjoy whole family gathering without interference, especially couple or when the children are getting independent)
Most of the helpers are great who gain for the betterment of life of their family in home fountrt. Some just abused the empathy and system for personal gain.
Coin, yes, has 2 sides.
Looking forward to witnessing the birth of the DGP book.....
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DGP
Welcome back when your masterpiece will launch?
If there is..
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The original thread creator, DGP, has just withdrawn all his previous posts last night.
The OP claimed to write a book about "MAID in HK" and asked for comments, from Day 1 till now, he always took one-sided opinions with strong bias therefore here became a battlefield for bombarding such arrogant, irresponsible, low-level, hardly readable English by a probably never existed "writer" .
Although the OP's posts were deleted by his own, readers can find the trace through reading other people's response, and know why there were people challenging the OP's English proficiency, writer's ethic, credit....etc..
It has to be stressed that, if one dared to provoke people with indecent words and wanted to advocate hidden agenda by claiming that he is writing a book ...blah blah blah and asked for comments, the OP should dare to face the consequence if subsequently being challenged or even revealed his own weakness and bias in "collecting" others' views.
Maybe it's time for the thread creator to take a rest, in peace.
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