Posted by
sidsingh
17 yrs ago
Hi,
Our domestic helper did not return on her usual sunday off & actually came back the next morning without notifying us. On being questioned by my wife, she said that she was at her mother's( who apparently is also a helper). My wife told her that she obviously wanted to speak to our helper's mother - as staying out for a night without prior permission was not acceptable to us ( we have 2.5 year old).
And guess what, helper actually scratched herself while my son & wife were sleeping in the afternoon and then called the police. My wife had no option but to allow her to terminate the contract.
On checking with the police, she is now pursuing the case of this alleged physical assault!
Frankly, we are still dazed that anyone can stoop so low. But what options do we have ? My wife did call the police missing person unit on the night she didnt turn up - but no formal complaint was registered. We have an SMS from our helper on sunday evening saying "she will be back by 11:00 pm" - which never happened.
We are scheduled to meet a detective to record my wife's statement. Should we engage a lawyer before we meet the police?
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Ed
17 yrs ago
I have a number of friends who are lawyers and they say NEVER under any circumstances give a police statement or even say ANYTHING to the police without a lawyer present.
There is no upside and often by trying to explain yourself you can dig yourself into a hole....
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Does anyone have an idea of how much a dispute of this type cost ( legal fees) etc ?
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smsm
17 yrs ago
Has she been with you for long....did anything happen in the last few days for her to react in this way....jwm, yes she is entitled for 24 hrs off but if she has been coming home in the night on all other sundays and then decides to stay overnight, she has to atleast call home and inform..maybe they need to go to work leaving their little one with her in the morg hence she has to call before deciding to just stay overnight..
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jwm and greenvalleys,
Sidsingh says that the DH needed prior permission because staying out overnight without notice is "unacceptable to us" - he doesn't say that staying out breaches any law or contract condition.
Most households have rules of behaviour which everyone who lives in the household (including the DH) is expected to follow (eg no smoking, no loud music at night etc). Compliance or non-compliance with these rules don't necessarily give the parties rights at law but, as greenvalleys points out, does determine the success of the relationship.
Accordingly, if prior notice (permission) to staying out is one of the household rules then the DH should comply and the employer does not have to just wear it if she doesn't but can and should speak to the helper, as sid singh did here.
This is a long way of saying that the helper does need to give prior notice before staying out overnight if that is one of the household rules. Being entitled to a 24 hours rest period is irrelevant.
i agree that sidsingh needs legal advice - good luck!
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Employers have every right to expect their helpers to return by a certain hour on their day off. That's what a curfew is called and every helper I've interviewed has not never challenged that right of mine. If they don't like it, they can find a more understanding employer like jwm, although I am not sure he even has one.
Sidsingh, good luck with your case.
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curfews for adults are ridiculous, people are happy for there kids and home to be taken care of by there helper but the same helper is not deemed adult or responsible enough to come home when she decides. It seems there are many many people who shouldn't be employers at all and in normal circumstances would never be in a position to have help in the home. People don't seem to have a clue how to get the best from there helpers and how to having a good working relationship.
There are of course decent people who treat the helpers properly but sadly from reading this forum it seems they are few and far between.
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A curfew is a rather harsh term and i will not use it for my home - what we had in place with our domestic help was an understanding that she should be back by 10pm on sundays ( she would get almost 27 hours of continuous rest) . Incase she's going to get late, we expected to be informed. Isnt it the same way in your professional work environment where you are supposed to keep your supervisor/team informed about delays. What has happened here is that the helper decided not to inform us / return her calls/turn up at all - resulting into us contacting the police missing persons unit.
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As a former detective inspector I agree with Ed DO NOT meet with the police without a lawyer present. If your DH has filed an assault claim the police should have obtained a medical certificate in support of the claim which details the extent of the injury. If you hire a lawyer they should ask for this and any other evidence the police may have. Secondly, whilst a DH is entitled to a 24 hour period of rest she is required by contract to reside with the employer. Furthermore, it is not unreasonable for an employer to expect to be informed if her intention is to stay out all night. After all, you are contractually and morally responsible for your DH's well being. As for informing the MPU, sadly the police will do little if anything in these circumstances and I would also hazard a guess your call may never have been recorded. Get a lawyer!
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May I just add that a friend of mine has just been through this. She didn't have a lawyer until the actual hearing, however she did have some witness's. It turned out the helper had left 2 previous employers and this was a case of she had to make some sort of claim or she was going to be kicked out of Hong Kong. In the end the judge did essentially throw out the case, but my friend had to pay back pay and a flight back to where ever. This was an out of court settlement as the judge pointed out that my friend could continue this through the courts but this would be lengthy and costly and that in the end the outcome although clearing her name, would probably be the same.I wish you luck and a good lawyer.
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island hopper,
1) We wanted to speak to DH's mother as our helper had said that she had spent the night out with her. We are responsible for her well being & were suspecting that she did not even have a mother in the first place! I see no harm in talking to her mother in person.
2) We used to give our DH 26 hours of continuous rest i.e. from 8pm saturday night to 10 pm sunday night. However, she unilaterally chose to extend it to 34 hours without informing us.
3) It's not me but my wife who had to make the statement.
we did take a lawyer & went quite well, he's confident that our DH's case is whats on extremely thin ice!
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I have to agree with Island hopper that your DH's mother is nothing to do with you, your DH works for you that's all and yes she should of let you know if she's not coming home but again i suspect she anticipated your reaction so didn't bother.
It's hardly fair to say that after her usual days work and she is finished for the evening that her normal rest time for that day is included in her 24 hours off. Her rest time should start from Sunday morning until Monday morning a full 24 hours not include her normal rest and sleep time for the previous day. Surely you don't expect her to work when she returns on Sunday evening so why would it matter if she enjoys a night away from your home?
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Airay
17 yrs ago
According to the law, the FDH cannot reside outside the employer's house.
Q42: Can an FDH live away from his/her employer's home?
A42: No. An FDH should work and reside in the employer's residence in accordance with Clause 3 of the Standard Employment Contract (ID407). The employer is required to provide the FDH with free accommodation as per the standard specified in the "Schedule of Accommodation and Domestic Duties" of the employment contract.
(Employers who have obtained the Director of Immigration's approval before 1 April 2003 to let their FDHs live out can continue to do so, so long as they continue to employ FDHs without a break of more than 6 months.)
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I am amazed at the neurosis displayed time and again on any matter related to a real or imaginary violation of DH's rights and the judgements passed on the OP based on assumptions. SidSingh, in my view it is completely reasonable to expect your DH to call to inform/seek approval, depending upon the understanding you have, in case she wants to stay elsewhere on Sunday. Equally, I would inform my helper should I be staying out at night. Besides the employer-employee relationship, to me it is also a matter of having regard for another person and not leaving him/her to worry all night about one's well-being.
The comments about DH not being a slave/entitled to 24 hour rest period are not relevant. There is no reason to assume that she is expected to work upon her return.
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Arguably, returning home at night, particularly if that has been the established understading between the parties invovled, is not to be construed as work-related obligation.
Anyway, to me there is no set formula for a human relationship, which an empoyer-DH relationship essentially is. There is no set definition for what an adult should or not do. It is highly dependent on cultural background and conditioning. What is for you an adult exercising her right is for me a violation of normal cosideration one person should show towards another.
As to your statement IH, that if I can't handle it, I shouldn't hire a DH, surely this should also apply to the party fo the other part, i.e. if the DH does not find what is important for the employer soemthing she can agree to, she shouldn't accept the job. IH, in my view ( as I do not presume to make rules for everyone) there needs to be a matching of expectations when it comes to any hiring and where there is a mismatch incidents like the one the OP was unfortunate enough to encounter happen.
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