Posted by
lace
14 yrs ago
Hiring Foreign Domestic Helpers to do anything else but domestic work is illegal and can be prosecuted. The guidelines of the Immigration department are very clear about that.
Please support our advertisers:
The limit is based on your income and accommodation. You must make at least a certain amount a month per helper you employ and you must have space to accommodate them in your residence.
As lace says, work must specifically be "domestic duties" so what you are proposing is illegal. Having said that, I have no doubt there are people illegally employing helpers to do other things.
Please support our advertisers:
I don't think it's even possible for a company to sign the contract as suggested in the last post. But as several have already said - highly illegal but it probably happens in some manner or form. And if doing it and still being paid FDH wages then I think it's highly immoral too.
Please support our advertisers:
I see quite a few Filipinos & Indonesians working in restaurants......could these establishments have special permits???
Please support our advertisers:
"I see quite a few Filipinos & Indonesians working in restaurants......could these establishments have special permits???"
99% of the time they are dependants or PR's. Lots, especially in places like Sai Kung.
Please support our advertisers:
I still maintain that the employer (of an FDH) cannot be a company. Maybe I should say that an employer would under normal circumstances be an individual, but I'm not convinced it can be a corporate entity. The standard FDH contract - the only contract allowed - is worded such that it would exclude anyone other than an individual from being an employer. One very basic requirement at the start is that the employer needs to give details of his/her passport or HK ID card - neither of which are issued to anyone other than an individual person.
beancurd, I'm certainly not doubting you but I am wondering if your employer entered into the contract as an individual and simply added the chop to give it some 'weight' - whereas in fact I don't think it would have made any real difference to the Immigration Officer.
Please support our advertisers:
By the way... just to add to Cara's post... if you hire more than one helper, you can apply to Immigration to have the other helper's live out, as some people just don't have room for 2 or more helpers in their home.
Please support our advertisers:
cara, we didn't have to do that. However they did ask why we needed a male.
Please support our advertisers:
Two reasons: Either it is a good deal to have a helper (case 1) or they would rather pay someone to do housework (case 2)
Case 1: If both parents work it is typically far more economically sound to hire a helper to do housework than for one parent to work part time or not at all.
Case 2: I have no problem admitting that our helper is in many ways a luxury. We are "buying time". By having a helper, we can spend more quality time with the kids and do more things on our free time (of which my wife has precious little) instead of doing laundry, cooking and cleaning.
If you want to do laundry, cook and clean, be my guest. I'm happy to pay someone to do it.
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, who helps your relative? Who takes care of her kids while she works? I bet there's someone.
As for dirt cheap, we've had maids and nannies in the US. Certainly not to the same degree as here, but still. And yes it was more expensive. It is cheap here, but so what? How does that change things? Why does it matter?
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, as cara says there is help in other countries, it just isn't in the form of a helper. If we lived back in Sweden, we would have a whole bunch of family members who could help out with child minding. Here in HK, we are "on our own". In Sweden you can drop off your toddler at day care for 10-11 hours a day. Try finding a HK daycare that does that. In the US, you can get most of your shopping done by going to 1-3 superstores, all on the same street. In HK, it often requires some chasing around.
You talk about helpers being paid too little, but you have to put it in perspective.
- The median HK household income is only HK$15500/month, and those people don't have paid housing and food like a helper.
- A helper making minimum wage here can easily be the highest earner in her family. From the perspective of HER job market, she is doing quite well. Note again the paid housing and meals. It is a "sweat shop wage" from the perspective of a westerner, but for an Indonesian or a Filipina it is a good salary. Our helper sends her son to private school, for crying out loud. (I know lots of helpers are in debt traps, but those are often of their own making, through overspending. Others have been seriously fleeced by employment agencies, but at a certain point you have to be realistic in your budgeting, realize you'll never be able to pay the fee back, and just say no.)
BTW your friend who pays the nanny USD 2000 is getting off easy. In southwestern Connecticut where we lived a full time nanny is almost twice that. But that is the US. You can't compare salaries like that because the job market and cost of living is so different.
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, you don't know cara personally so how can you possibly know her situation and say that her helper is a luxury?
Why do you assume having a helper means not raising the kids? My wife can spend MORE quality time with the kids since we have a helper.
If you want to think helpers are only a luxury, fine. However I dislike that you are judging people because they choose to have a helper. Our life is great with a helper. We have a good time bringing up our kids. Our helper is a part of that but we are their parents. Nothing can change that. We are not the lazy layabouts you want to make us out to be. It is our choice and your holier-than-thou attitude is frankly offensive. I don't judge you for not having a helper.
Having a helper is just another way of raising a child. I don't understand what you find so wrong about it. A helper can enrich the lives of children and adults in the family alike, and not just by doing housework. Our helper helps make our home a happy place.
As for the other points, I reiterate what cara and I said before. HK makes living without a helper tricky at best.
"Millions of families do it themselves, without baby sitters, day cares, helpers or parents, etc. Sometimes they choose to live on one income. Or maybe the mom works at night and the dad works during the day."
Oh yeah, that last one sounds like a quality life...
In the end, there are many ways to skin a cat. The important thing is that children feel loved and nurtured.
Please support our advertisers:
To the OP
You talking about 2 different kinds of employees. One is a DH subject to a 2 year contract that is renewable and the salary and type of work done is set according to the HK Labour laws. The other type of workers are paid hourly and provide their own housing. The second type are normally sourced through Manpower agencies and have a different type of visa than a DH. You can see these employees working usually in teams in the restaurant and hotel industry.
If you want to hire 2 to 3 DH to work for your family you must provide proof of income to support them. The current amount set by the HKgov is $15000 per month. So if you want 4 DHs you need to provide an income of $60,000 per month plus a letter stating your reason to employ this many helpers.
Trust me, unless you can provide the necessary proof of need you will never get the proper release from Imm. I am in the industry so I have some experience in this area. If you want trained(or untrained but trained by you) help to run your business, there are many options that are alot less risky to you personally and won't put you in contravention of the Labour laws of HK which are upheld rather strictly compard to some other countries. Good luck on your business
Please support our advertisers:
Two helpers is easy. Immigration won't really argue about that. Sure, they might be "underutilized" but if a person wants to spend the money to employ two, then that's normally fine. Either one is a driver or the family wants one of the helpers to work Sundays.
With more helpers, a family will argue that since their many kids have many activities, they need more helpers to deal with that. I have never heard of problems as long as the justification seems plausible.
I know one family with 5 helpers including a driver (that's one for each kid, plus driver) and I recently heard of one with 12 helpers including two drivers!
"Could you really justify having 2 or 3 helpers with a 1000 sq ft flat and one or two kids?"
Good question. I mean, realistically no, but I don't know what immigration really looks at.
"Is there really so much housework and child caring that one would ever need 2 or 3 helpers?"
At 3 or more we're really getting into the luxury zone. ;) We do have two helpers but they are a married couple so one of the main reasons is that we want them to be together and happy.
"I would guess that most people who employ multiple helpers are using them for more than just domestic work."
I know many families with more than one helper and none use their helpers for more than housework. As mentioned before, those helpers perhaps work less than a single helper in a home.
Please support our advertisers:
grytch is correct. You simply need to provide proof of need for x number of helpers and proof of income. Followed by complying with the boundaries of the DH contract in terms of working only as a DH, living condition, rest days etc. all conditions are clearly stated in the contract clauses.
Although it has been argued on this thread that a DH is a luxury, in fact for some familes is is required because they have no family support and have shift work. Perhaps they have elderly parents or a disabled person that require 24 hour care and they have to work to earn a living. Many Drs., nurses firemen etc need an extra set of hands to help them run their households. The fact that HK can allow for a live-in DH is one of the reasons why HK is desirable in terms of quality of living.
On another note, many women do not really require a DH, but it is their choice. If they have the income to support a DH then why would anyone make these comments? It sounds like some sort of jealous tirade. Like a child who couldn't play in a game and said, "well I don't like that game anyway and I would never choose to play it even if I could." Good grief
Please support our advertisers:
Madtown,
I do agree with you that having a helper is a luxury, I remind myself every day that once I go to another location, I will not have the luxury. I have a full time helper whom we call the "CHO-Chief housekeeping Officer," and a part time helper who is managed by her, I never ask them what I cannot do but, I am lucky enough that they are people who take pride in their work so yes, our family is really spoiled to the point that having someone helping us is already incorporated in our plans. But, I just want to introduce you the other side of the story so you get an idea that, this unique Hong Kong system is benefitting both parties.
Our CHO is a very well educated Filipina lady and one day I asked her why she is working as a professional housekeeper. Her answer was simple, because there are no jobs in the Philipines even if you have a University degree, you need strong connections with the government to get a decent job, if there are any.
Instead, it is considered specifically that coming to Hong Kong as a helper has the same status as a hot banker earning a high salary, and Hong Kong is a hot deal for them as it is so close to home. She has been asked by her ex- employers to go home with them and work in the UK, Italy but, she refused as, as long as she is in Hong Kong, if she misses home, she can go home on the next flight.
She also mentioned that if she finds the right employer, she has the joy of being a member of the family and having the honor of being a part of their lives and see them evolve and share the laughs and tears. When she came to us, we told her that we won't be able to pay as much as her ex-employer has been paying but, she decided that she wanted to join our family as, she wanted to work in an environment that she feels that she has somewhere that she is belonging and not just a worker working for the money to send home.
Also, I think it's in their nationality that they like moving their bodies. Our CHO gets really stressed out when there's nothing to do so I sometimes have to really look hard to find something for her to do.
She has been in Hong Kong 20 years now, in those years, she has been to seminars so that she can open up her own business and employe people back home. She was able to buy property for the business and a little more of funds to accumulate. We are trying to help her as much as possible.
Through her, we were able to do charity work as well, when the typhoon hit them last year, I was able to get direct contact to a charity so that the donations do not disappear in the pockets of authorities.
So, point is, yes, what you say is an absolutely true fact and i am not justifying myself being spoiled. I just wanted to hi-lite that at the end of the day, it's a person to person relationship and has it's own reasons.
Please support our advertisers:
"I don't buy into the whole "hong kong is different" argument either. How is Hong Kong different from NY, Paris, LA, London etc. "
As cara says, it is different because:
- In those cities you can easily find full day daycare. That is almost impossible in HK.
- In those cities you can go to 2-3 superstores on one street and get all your shopping done. Try that in HK. If nothing else, there is enough storage in the average American or UK home to store a whole week's worth of groceries. In HK it is a bit harder.
- In those cities, you can order tons of necessities online, saving lots of time. Not in HK.
- In those cities, every school outing or event doesn't require the presence of one caregiver per child.
I could go on. Now I grant that many of those things have come about because helpers are ubiquitous. However this doesn't change the situation.
For families where both parents work, a helper goes from luxury to necessity. As beancurd says, don't look at well-off expat and local families. Look at working class families.
So, a helper can be a luxury or a necessity depending on family circumstances.
Please support our advertisers:
Again I have to agree with cara. You are making blanket statements and your thinking seems based entirely on rich expats.
Now, in my family's case, we could get by without a helper. But that's us. For many others with helpers, it is a different story. Again, for some it is a luxury, for some it is a necessity.
"Every store in hong kong delivers. Please tell me one thing in hong kong that can not be delivered to your door? Both wellcome and park n shop deliver, as does most every store."
Yes but you still have to go there. And sometimes you have to chase around to 3-4 stores to get the stuff you want/need. In the US i could go to one store every week. Done. In HK I can't manage that really. It's 3 times a week (storage issues) and several stores (availability issues).
"Children go to school at age 2 in hong kong. Is it that hard to live on one income for a couple of years (or longer)?"
That's not really true. I mean you just can't leave them at school from age 2. And btw there is no obligation to send them at 2.
I can only speak for myself (two kids aged 3 and 4) but at 2 someone has to go with them to pre-school and stay there for the whole 2½ hours. Hardly a whole day. And who will take care of a sibling? At 3 and 4 they get a maximum of 6½ hours. In Sweden or the US they can stay from 8 to 6. If both parents are working and there is a small child or two in the mix, a helper or a family member is the only option.
"If helpers were banned in Hong Kong, would you really have to pack your bags and leave?"
Without a doubt yes. Our quality of life here is due in large part to having a great helper. But that has nothing to do with need/luxury.
"No one should be so dependent on others to care for their children that they refer to that help as a necessity. It doesn't matter whether it is a day care, mom or dad or a domestic helper. All are luxuries. "
From the dawn of mankind we have sought help to care for children because it takes a lot to raise kids. I don't see how you can think it is a luxury.
Please support our advertisers:
Is having helper a luxury or necessity?
Or is it a luxurious necessity or necessary luxury?
The big debate continues....
Please support our advertisers:
At this point we're arguing semantics. We'll just have to disagree. I'm done here.
Please support our advertisers:
Cara,i find the issue of weight(overweight) between helper and his wife a very private matter.
Please support our advertisers:
Back to ordering food online: I would not trust supermarkets to deliver perishables, especially fruit and veg, as I like to select my own so I can check for freshness before paying.
lolopolo, now that you have drawn attention to something fairly innocuous and turned it into an issue you've made it even less private as only because of your post am I now thinking about a stranger's weight!
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, it is quite hard to compare HK with other countries. First of all, part time work is more acceptable in a western world compared to HK. Yes, you can get part time work here but it is scarce and given the pay here is so little (to a local), imagine how much you'd get with part time work. HK$5k max? Secondly, dads in a "western world" come home every night, and most can leave the office by 5-6pm? In HK, people usually leave the office after 8pm and lots of dads have to travel to China on a daily basis and can be absent the entire week leaving the mum alone with the kids.
You also have to consider that those living here who are NOT on expat income, have very low salaries. The average workers' salary is around 13k per month or less? Then look at the property market. To rent a two bedroom apartment in the New Territories cost 6.5k per month. If you have kids, one man's income may not be enough to support the family. There are bills to pay, groceries, children's education, emergencies, insurance etc to think about. If a wife has to work because of this, chances are she has to work long hours too even if hers is a low paying job simply because it is the culture here. A combined salary for a couple here in HK will be around HK$20k per month thereabouts.
Then if you consider the huge influx of helpers coming here to work. Why would they leave their husbands and kids at home? It is because they want a better life for them. It's the same as why both parents go out working. It's for the children more than anything.
Another issue is the control. Mothers go out working so that they have some control over their own lives as well. There have been many stories where the husbands do not treat their wives equally once their wives stay home and are not earning income. I have friends who fall in this category.
If you only knew how guilty working mothers feel when they go out working.
Your analysis is too simple.
Please support our advertisers:
Madtown, if both the employers and helpers are happy,i dont know why you have trouble accepting it as normal thing in Hong Kong.
Helpers make the employers life bit easier and helpers are gainfully employed.
So called 'luxury' is employing thousands of helpers..i am all for 'employment for all'.
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, I think it is relevant to the topic because you made the statement that:
"I don't buy into the whole "hong kong is different" argument either. How is Hong Kong different from NY, Paris, LA, London etc."
So I'm giving you a perspective on how Hong Kong really IS different from other western countries you've listed.
Please support our advertisers:
Yes, it's true that the majority of HK only need to pay 1.5k rent.... but there's one more thing to consider.... a lot of them also give money to support their parents who look after their children every month. Then there are those who are stuck in between... where they earn too much to qualify for low income housing and probably just earn enough to make ends meet. Lots of circumstances, no black or white scenarios.
lolo is right, at the end of the day, whether it is a luxury or necessity, employers are happy for the help they get and employees are happy for the income they get for helping.
Please support our advertisers:
Food,water and shelter are basic necessity for all animals and even plants.
i think humans have much more necessities.
Please support our advertisers:
"That is one complaint I have in hong kong. It seems all deliveries and services make you (the customer) wait around for long periods of time."
That's because there is an assumption that someone will be home, be it elder family member or helper.
Please support our advertisers:
madtown, I must step in here to say that a car is NOT a luxury for my husband. He is usually traveling overseas most weeks but when he goes to the office there is no public transport to his place of work (not on MTR/bus routes) at the hours he travels there and back; also he has to attend meetings across town at a drop of a hat (venues not always on MTR/bus routes) and his company will pay only for his car mileage and parking expenses and will not pay for taxi fares). Not his choice, it's his company's weird accounting practice. Therefore we have always had a car here as a necessity. Incidentally, I occasionally use our car to drive to, say, IKEA and garden centres etc. and I think of the car pretty much a necessity in these circumstances when I need to transport large/heavy items. (Swings and roundabouts on this one: fcar costs for these trips are probably the equivalent of delivery charges anyway.) But we digress from the theme of the original post...
Please support our advertisers:
Thames -
this is better left for a different thread. i do not think a car is necessary in hk. How does over 90% of the hong kong population get by without being able to load heavy items into their car from Ikea? give me a break.
madtown - my use of the car for odd trips to IKEA etc. is incidental and a nice-to-have but the ownership and use of that car is ESSENTIAL for my husband, as I outlined earlier. I use it occasionally, when he travels and it vastly improves the quality of my life; I won't ever get back the time spent waiting and riding on buses and trains, or waiting in for deliveries (I do not have domestic help). I do not pretend to know the particular circumstance of each and every other HK denizen but I do know MY circumstances and the differentiation between luxury and necessity. And now it's Sunday morning, the sun's shining so I'm going for a dip in my pool (yes, that IS a luxury) as this thread is getting boring and I'm done with justifying!
Please support our advertisers:
You must be logged in to be able to reply.
Login now
Copy Link
Facebook
Gmail
Mail