Our helper often rummages through my trash and takes things for herself. She doesnt tell me she does it but I noticed things in her room. She also takes things she thinks we arent using or dont want and puts in her room. Is this stealing?
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Technically it is stealing, if she doesn't ask you if she can have things, especially things she thinks you aren't using!.
If she is used to doing this kind of thing with previous employer, she may even rummage amongst your personal belongings, wallets or jewelary and help herself to bits and pieces she thinks you won't miss. Stealing won't stop by just a warning, they usually have it 'ingrained' and will carry on taking, no matter how big or small the item is, or how much it is worth.
If you were working in an office, you wouldn't take bits of equipment which are rarely used, would you?, this is what she is doing to you! your boss would probably fire you if you did that.
In your circumstance, I would not let her know you have looked in her room,or warn her that you have called police, but get police to search, when you know something is in the room which shouldn't be there of yours, and have her arrested for stealing.
Don't just fire her, as some other unfortunate employer will end up with her.
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What about taking things from my trash though? If I'm going to throw it out anyway... It feel like the wrong thing to do since I am throwing out personal things for reason... But is it stealing? Also, I noticed she claimed a free item for herself when she bought some groceries and didnt ask if it was ok- but it was plain on the receipt and she knows I check these...
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Well you could offer things to her you would otherwise throw away, but if she takes any stuff from within your house, ie your personal belongings, no matter how small the item is, because she thinks you don't use it, then that is stealing.
Taking a free gift when shopping with cash you have supplied, without asking is also stealing, did you ask her about this at the time? and made it clear to her that she doesn't take things without asking.
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Yes, I have told her to ask first before she takes things. Sometimes she takes things then after that she will say 'oh, I took such and such because I wanted it for...and you werent using it...' With the trash, I saw her decorating her room with some things I just threw away...I said you should ask first etc... Then today I found a lot of other things in her room that she said nothing about- plus some other things that had migrated from our bedroom to the kitchen near her room (these were not in her room but still removed from our room for no aparent reason). I didnt say anything about the free gift, was annoyed but let it go- I felt sorry for her I guess... And now I feel terrible I went in her room and through her stuff. I took all the things she had 'taken' back. There was quite a lot of little things... I didnt want to call police over such small things- i'm not sure if she realises it is stealing- its a bit of a grey area...
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PS- we are very generous to her too- we often give her things... But I feel like it should be my decision if I give to her or not, I should be able to throw things away without having her go through them and pick through them like a seagull...
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You should make things absolutely clear, that anything which is your property, and taken without your consent is stealing, and you will not tolerate this.
She must put back the stuff she has not asked you about, and hopefully she will not take anything any more, tell her you will immediately dismiss her,after calling the police, if you find anything else gone-and in her room.
She is your employee, not your friend, if you are too soft with her she will take more advantage of you.
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I'm with cara ... if I have anything that I'm throwing out, I ask my helper first if there is anything she has a use for ... either for herself or family/friends ... it seems a shame, and such a waste to throw stuff away that your helper would be grateful for. However, if she's taking stuff from your room, simply because she thinks you don't use it, then that is an entirely different situation and needs to be addressed ...
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Hmm.. Its a strange situation. I felt they were things I needed to throw away- the bags my medications came in for example... This was in the ensuite bin! It is rather embarrassing that she goes through it. The stuff you mentioned, Cara, I would never just throw away without offering... Or a used water bottle that was really gross and mouldy... Little things here and there that I feel are trash...maybe she is hoarding? Anyway, I'm just going to tell her not to do it anymore and just not to look in case she is tempted to take. I am just concerned her fingers are a little 'sticky' in general. Like I said, taking the free item without asking, she doesnt have a food allowance but has stored noodles bought with our money in her room, a couch cushion that needed repairing (she told us about this after she took it), she asked if we could we buy some first aid items but then they ended up in her bedroom too... And some $5 and $10 coins we keep in the car for tolls have also all gone (but I cant prove this)... I may just have a chat with her... And she uses her money back card when she does our shopping- she didnt ask if this was okay but I've let her do this because I thought it would be nice of me... I said I didnt know how moneyback cards worked anyway when I asked her about it and she said she didnt either but I found a bunch of claim receipts so I'm pretty sure she knows what they do.
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Taking things from the trash is absolutely fine, not stealing. What, would you prefer something get destroyed than used by someone? Why would this trouble you?
Taking things of yours NOT in the trash is another matter all together. That is completely wrong.
There is a nice clear line to be drawn with your helper. Anything in the trash bin is fair game. Everything else is not.
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I guess it troubles me because of what I put in my trash amongst the things she takes so I am embarrassed... and I guess I just feel like I dont have any privacy if she goes through everything like that. I just feel in general like my home has turned into a bit of a gift shop for her. Or what if I threw out old medications or things that could be harmful to children or pets or her and she takes them out and puts them in her room? Another situation we had was she took a candle I discarded because the dog chewed it up- she lit it, put it on the floor in her room, with a power cord wrapped around it next to the power point...and went and had a shower.
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Actually, now you have mentioned the items she has taken (bag that your meds came in, etc), it does seem rather strange that she would be going through your rubbish bins ... especially in the en-suite ... mine would be containing dirty tissues, cotton buds, make-up remover wipes, and any other manner of 'personal rubbish' ... that would be pretty gross, not to mention unhygenic! Why on earth would she be doing that?
I think I would tell her that if you are throwing anything away and you think she may have a use for it, you will offer it to her and she is welcome to it. However, I'd have to make it quite clear that anything thrown into the rubbish bins, stays in the rubbish and she is not under any circumstances to search through your bins ... point out the fact that not only is it personal, but also very unhygenic and you won't accept her doing it.
Also, any other items that go missing, just because she thinks you don't use them, ask her where she has put them and why they have been moved. Then make it quite clear that she doesn't take anything that belongs to you, without being told she can, because basically it is stealing and that simply can't be tolerated!
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Sounds to me like a hoarder if you ask me, with a small dash of kelpto? Who knows. I was initially thinking that, weird, why would your trash belong to "YOU" exclusively if you threw it away. Once its thrown, its not yours anymore, is it? But yeah, a packet with your prescriptions on it? Thats an odd thing to take. A dog chewed candle, I get, its still useable, but keeping it lit and buggering off for a shower, odd and a safety hazard, me thinks.
The points card, thats amazing you let her keep the points. Did you know that for every 2500 points you spend (assuming this is Park n Rob we are talking about) you get 50HKD redeemable cash voucher? Yep, or free stuff. But yes...it all adds up over time.
Anyway, hoarding isn't something you can deal with by just telling someone "don't do that". It has to do with more deep rooted issues of growing up unloved or insecure in ones own home...material things wise. I know this because my Mother is a bit of a hoarder...she will keep stuff that I sometimes think, woah. And she gets nervous about throwing anything away, may even hang on to old magazines for decades! That sort of thing..."You can still use this for..." is something I hear a lot with her.
So yeah, good luck addressing that with your helper.
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Have been watching closely since I last posted.. Explaining that going through my ensuite trash is a big no-no and I have since offered her bits of 'crap' eg. old mcdonalds toys- before I chuck them away- she gladly took them. She is a hoarder and she is also a 'grey area thief'. At least, thats what I call it. She has since kept a piece of cardboard and an icecream bucket (empty) so this is classic hoarding to me. The grey area stealing is for example, making a batch of pancakes and storing them in her room (possibly to share on Sunday), asking if she can buy herself a juice from the shop- I say ok expecting it to be like a normal bottle of juice- no, it was a 1L bottle (again I expect this was to share on Sunday), and as for her book-keeping skills- if there is any money miscalculated and happens to be an excess- she takes it out of the 'work wallet' and keeps it. So, this morning she added something up incorrectly saying it cost $35 instead of $25, but was there $10 ileft in the wallet- nope- she just took it as a wee bonus. I made her put it back and we had a chat about how some mistakes are basically stealing and she needs to be very careful. Its pretty stupid- I know if I am not on top of it its going to escalate- geez its annoying. As for money back card- as far as I could see from the receipts, she was using the vouchers to buy toiletries for herself- I can live with that. But, I noticed she has been shopping there way more frequently (probably to get the points) rather than actually looking for the best prices on groceries- so I have limited what she shops for and am ordering the rest myself online such as washing powder and non- food 'expensive' items. Most fresh stuff I expect her to go to the wet markets and she is now limited to those sorts of items to buy...
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Why do you keep her? Do you really want to be following her around, keeping such close watch on her? She will not change her behaviour. Pay her one month and give her immediate dismissal... Of course, try to find another good helper first! Good luck.
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Now this week she seems to have come up with a new 'trick'. We don't give her a food allowance but she is welcome to almost all food we have in the home. A problem arose however, where she is going out to do the marketing and coming home with little treats here and there for herself. I mentioned to her if she asks first for certain foods or something she would like that is okay but we will have limits. So, this week she has come back with the shopping in the markets- the receipts in the markets dont specify exactly what is bought- just a dollar amount usually. But she will have a bag of fruit which she claims she has bought for herself with her own money. But I'm sure she has just bought it with our money and it doesnt show up on those receipts. Now, if she asked first for this fruit- in advance- I would say yes. But this is totally sneaky. The next day she was eating a special filipino bread roll in the kitchen and when I asked about it she said she bought it with her money- but sure enough there was another mysterious receipt with no specifics on it from a filipino local store. When I asked about it she said that that food bought was her lunch (which I okayed that she could buy her lunch that day) and the bread roll was a snack from the seme shop that she bought separately. Now- why lie about this? It was pretty obvious she had used our money for it- and I would not have minded her buying this as part of her lunch either. But lying about it? It only makes me think she is dishonest. Unfortunately, she really isnt very bright (and I am not saying that all helpers are stupid- but she is just a particular case). It is pretty easy to tell when something is 'up' just by observing her behaviour and mannerisms. Its just a never ending saga of 'what can I get out of these people' that is seriously disturbing. I wish she didnt have this mentality, I consider myself quite generous- just not a pushover. Although, my patience is running really thin with these little 'trys'.
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We also don't give our helper a food allowance and, like you, she is welcome to pretty much everthing in our cupboards/fridge. I do appreciate, however, that there are some things we don't have, that she may prefer, such as white bread, sugar and full fat milk. On the occasions that she shops, or when I shop, I always tell her that if there is any specific food items she would like for herself, within reason, she is allowed to add them to my shopping bill. I think she respects the fact that she is allowed to do this, without having to ask first and she never takes advantage.
At the end of the day, what is the cost of a bag of fruit or the odd loaf of bread? Now, if she were to come home with best beef tenderloin, or expensive tuna steak added to to my bill, I probably wouldn't be too happy, but I think she's respectful enough to realise that.
Could you not simply tell your helper that she is allowed to choose the odd thing, within reason, to add to your food bill, without having to ask for permission first, as long as she doesn't take advantage? You have chosen to not give her a food allowance, so you are responsible for providing all of her food ... would it not be a nice gesture to occasionally allow her the odd thing that she likes, which you wouldn't normally buy for yourself, such as the filipino bread? Surely, by doing so, she will be appreciative of your kind generosity, and you won't feel that she is thinking you are a 'pushover' and thinking 'what can I get out of these people'?
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FIFIB
12 yrs ago
Uhm I see your point. It is not about the money is about the principal.
I just think you would be better of getting a new helper. Seems to me that you are already umcomfortable with her.
My helper would never do such a thing. She does others like let food get really green and spoiled in the fridge but not tricks with money.
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Given that your helper is not hiding the items she is taking and openly displays them in her room, she obviously is unaware that she's doing anything wrong, or she's deliberately doing it to get under your skin. (me thinks probably the later).
Try to build up a good relationship with her, and you may find that she'll stop playing her games. And if that doesn't help, then be done with her!
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I think with the bread thing- she freaked because I just happened to walk into the kitchen when she was eating it and surprised her. I think she thought maybe she wasnt supposed to buy it so she quickly made up a story about paying for it. But I already said she could buy her lunch that day so not sure why? Or she may have paid for it herself although it was not necessary. It doesnt make sense. The fruit was not in the open- she had to rush out the door after coming back late with the shopping to run an urgent errand and I decided to unpack the shopping for her while she was out and saw it. Normally I would not have seen it. She eats a lot of food already- so much it often surprises me. Twice as much as me and my husband combined. And she snack a lot too- milo, cheese, jam sandwiches throughout the day on top of all her large meals...( I only know this after these items have gone and she needs to buy more) I accept she just eats a lot and she is doing all the cooking, cleaning and marketing so if thats what she needs then fine- we can afford it. I have never encountered someone so desperate for 'more' before though. More stuff, more food, as much as she can get- even trash. I can see it in her eyes even when I hand her a $500 note for shopping that its a big deal for her. Perhaps she was mistreated in the past and she has adopted that mentality of hoarding and stocking up while she can? Is this normal for some helpers? I have two options here- I can try to build her faith is us that we wont let her go without anything she needs...by establishing open communication and trust (this does mean getting her to ask for things and have us say yes rather than being sneaky), or I can let her go and get someone else who doesnt need to be watched and monitored and whose issues I dont need to work through. As sad as it is for her, perhaps it may be the right thing for us to get someone else...
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peachyleesh, I think its time to let your helper go. I think its fair enough as another poster has written if they are careless and let food go off (not ideal) but yours does seem to be 'out for number one'. You appear to have been more than generous, but some people in general (not just helpers) don't understand the bounds of human decency. And this thing about keeping the extra when the grocery bill has an excess - I mean that is thieving, not matter how you look at it. I hope that by the same token she tops up the grocery bills when it is short. She is not entitled to that money and she knows it. A bank employee would know he/she goes to jail if they pocketed any excess after balancing an atm machine at the end of the day.
If the rules in your home are that she asks before she buys anything for herself, I think that is fair enough. For other households, they may not require their helpers to ask but that doesn't mean it is wrong for you to do so, especially if you are a good sport about it. In my home, our helpers have a $500 kitty per month that they can buy chips, soft drinks, snacks with without asking me (I do this so they don't snack on my imported treats and also our tastes are different). It works well in my home and they never use it up every month but I have other things to contend with like........they are welcome to share our peanut butter, milo, jams but they tend to eat alot of it, then leave two teaspoons of it (then they can't be accused of finishing it off!!!) for us to find when we have breakfast ect (and we only eat breakfast at home once every 2-3 weeks). This is despite them finishing off 75% of the milo and peanut butter. But I think its a minor thing overall. I'm trying to train them out of this habit (its annoying when both of my chidlren want a cup of milo each and there is only enough for less than one cup) but now they leave 4 teaspoons behind rather than two!!! Living with helpers is not perfect BUT its about how much you can tolerate.
Finally you have to think about the mental strain she is putting on you. Best let her go to a more laissev faire home where she can skim to her heart's content, and try finding someone who is more in line with your overall philosophy to life.
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Well, after giving her a few weeks to improve, we have officially decided to terminate. We have found a (hopefully) nice new replacement and looking forward to better days ahead once she starts. Once, again- there was a mistake in the book today and she had taken the excess change from the money we provided. After a poor excuse that made no sense, I said to her that it may not be much money- but that is not the point- stealing is stealing- to which she replied 'well, if you dont trust me, you know what to do...' and she walked off. It was said in such a smug way... I wonder if she is hoping we will break her contract so she gets the one month advance? (no way we could keep her for the month since she has such a habit of nicking stuff). I have felt totally uncomfortable with this helper that I cant wait til she is gone. She has mentioned to me (we are her first western employer- she has worked in local chinese families for 6 years prior), that she wanted to work for westerners because they paid a higher salary and were more generous. Well, the last thing I feel like being is generous towards her after her just taking, taking, taking since she began. So many helpers we have interviewed have this attitude that western employers are better and seem to have ridiculous expectations. Every family is different- race has nothing to do with it. When I told our helper that she was wrong about her feelings about western emplyers she replied "oh, well, it must be some other type of westerner, not australian" referring to us... What an idiot and how racist is that!
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Peachyleesh-- be careful when you terminate this helper, she sounds like a real crafty one, and you want to avoid her claiming 'unfair dismissal' and going to a labor tribunal
She sounds like she already knows all the little tricks a bad helper can do, and cheeky with it, and may try 'blackmail' money into you getting rid of her.
If you terminate her immediately, you would have to have other proof she is stealing,ie. if some independent person has seen her do this. I realise you have just cause to go this route for dishonesty, not obeying employer, and theft, but it is probably the excuse she'll be looking for to screw more money out of you at a labor tribunal, they will always deny theft unless there is more definate proof.
If you give her one months pay instead of a months worked notice, then you can ask her to leave immediatley.
To go the latter route, you need to make sure she is paid the full months salary, from the day notice is given, and make sure any holiday pay she is due is added onto it, plus an air ticket out of HK to her home country, more likely Fils,(which may involve 2 flights) for 2 weeks after you have given notice, plus bus fare to the airport and from the airport at her home country end. She also needs 100HKD per day food allowance if her homeward journey.
Document and have all monies handed to her witnessed an signed by an independent person, not another helper, keep all the papers.
If she asks for a reference, just give her one stating she worked from 'Date" to date, you don't have to put any more.
Also you have to inform immigration,within 7 days of her leaving, you can put on that from--the reason, dishonesty, and minor theft, at least Imm will have a record of what she was really dismissed for, and maybe fax or photo-copy to them, the signed paper with all the correct monies handed over. then she can't turn round and screw you for more.
When she does go, watch her pack to make sure none of your stuff disappears, take any keys of yours from her before she leaves the house.
If she kicks up a fuss, just call the police, they will help you evict her.
As a Westerner myself, I realise what you mean about many helpers prefering 'soft touch" Western employers, it is very racist of them, and I have heard so many say this. There are good and bad employers of any race, and many helpers have had a wonderful experience with many employers whether they are Chinese, Western or other Asian, as long as they are honest themselves, and doing their job properly.
If you are worried about possible repercussion when firing her, email or talk to someone at Imm, state she is regularly 'petty' stealing, bad attitude etc and what is the best route to fire her, give her name and FDH number on the email, so they know exactly who you are refering to.
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Hi Susie1, Thanks so much for the advice. I went through an agency to employ this helper and they have told me that to terminate for theft and/or poor attitude is leaving yourself open to problems- especially if I have never reported theft to the police when it has happened. They have suggested I terminate simply for unsatisfactory work performance- which is more difficult for a helper to dispute. We have a thorough outline of expectations and these are kept for hers and our reference, plus monthly meetings to track progress. I think I even made her sign the expectation list to make sure she understood... I will not tell the helper when we terminate her that it is because she is stealing and has a horrible attitude- just that she has not worked to an acceptable standard. If she leaves thinking this and we offer her a reference, then we can potentially warn her new employers about her other bad habits. She hasnt been a satisfactory helper in terms of cooking and marketing anyway- but her cleaning sure is thorough (especially in my bedroom and bathroom- I guess it would have to be since she enjoys rummaging through my things so much). My husband discovered last night when he had to rush out to a business dinner that his good shoes and belt are missing now (he hasnt had to use these for a couple of months)... I look forward to it all being over and I hope that she will not make a fuss when we terminate. How often do they go to the tribunal anyway?? We plan to give her all her entitlements up front in cash on her leaving day and will pay her one month in lieu.
I do believe that if you are kind to your employees, you will usually receive hard work and respect in return. Like I said, we are generous people... but have been totally turned off now. I hate that my attitude has changed. I hope our new helper will understand if I am a little hesitant in the beginning as I want to avoid this happening again at all costs...
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I'm wondering if taking "trash" is at all common? Our new helper also does the same, for exanple, I've seen yogurt and sour cream (plastic) containers now holding her hair clips, among other things. I suppose it's recycling.
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