Posted by
number7
16 yrs ago
Hi all
I have just found out that my helpers sister is coming over to work here and her prospective employer are going to pay her only $25001 I am infuirated but can't help as they will just find someone else instead. Can anything be done about this?
BTW the pospective employers are very wealthy.
thanks
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Ed
16 yrs ago
This happens a lot and is a very touchy situation... I think it is a criminal act to underpay helpers and she could report her employer (if she does make sure you have evidence of underpayment - often employers will force the helper to sign receipts for the full amount and pay them in cash the lessor amount). Sadly your sister will be out of a job no doubt whichever way the case is decided...
I suggest you call our office and speak to Evelyn for some advice on this.
If she goes ahead and she loses her job please let us know and we will do our best to find her a new employer promptly.
A number of years ago a maid won a court case for abuse but while awaiting the judgment was caught selling home made indonesian food to other maids on Sunday in CWB for $10/serving - she was JAILED FOR 3 MONTHS BY THE GOVT OF HK!!!!
When we heard of this in an SCMP article we contacted the hospice where she was staying and put an ad for her on the home page of AsiaXPAT - she had a job very quickly thanks to one of our many outstanding members.
It is sickening when we hear of employers who underpay helpers - especially so when they have the cash not to think twice about a new mobile phone or expensive handbag...
Again please tell her to get in touch if she moves forward with this - our tel is 2815 2520 (I am emailing this thread to our staff so they know the background).
Good luck
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Further on this - if you get a court conviction please let us have that info - we just might consider including that in the free ad for your sister (will run that past our lawyers... but if the court has convicted I dont think there is anything to prevent publishing of the crime).
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
I think the FDH has a very strong community out there so I guess your helper and her sister are Indonesians. These poor girls don't even have their own consulate looking after them, not to say the agencies that recruits them. Some stories are heresay but I've got a few friends who hired these girls and you know what, no days off every week, labour holidays not given, lower than the normal wage etc. etc and these girls are willing. I told my friends off and they said the agencies asked them to do this as not to spoil them. I got so mad!!!!
P.S. After saying that I know of one friend who treats her Indonesian well but this particular helper rather stays at home on her holidays. Gosh, that's life!
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Many people pay at least the minimum wage, this lady would be better to cancel her plans to work for this familly now and find someone else before paying all the expenses of coming over. She can earn more and should, it would be foolish to start with a familly who already are misstreating her. Perhaps you can suggest all this and try and help find her a new employer.
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maxis
16 yrs ago
It's hard to get a job, and people take advanage of it - in every country this happens.
In "first world" countries, for professions which don't have a minimum wage, employers take advantage by creating a "market value". For example, if more engineering graduates are available, then employers cut back on perks and give a cheaper wage. If the economy turns a bit, they drop wages.
Employers collude on "wage fixing" all the time.
Anyhow, she should take the job, get them to pay for her to get here etc.
1. If they are nasty, tear a piece off them
2. If they are ok just mingy, then use it as a stepping stone to get a better employer, but at least she would be here which is easier than trying from home.
If one was the betting type, you'd suspect
1. The helper is from a more disadvantaged country and one which has a poor community support in HK
2. The employer is not an expat
Taking advantage of someone's financial deparation, ignorance and perhaps lack of education/knowledge is WRONG.
Can't afford a helper - fine- don't have one! Just like if you can't afford a car.
Also, of course, even if someone is paid the minimum wage and made work the maximum amount, that is underpaying too!
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thanks so much for all the responses and advice. My helpers sister is coming over from the Philippines next month. I think the best thing is to come over and try to find a new employer. My helper just mentioned this to me in conversation so I don't want to butt in too much! Ed how do you make a report if there is no evidence of underpayment?
maxis you are right the employers are not expats!
thanks again
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Ed
16 yrs ago
You can still make a report but its word against word... I would suggest you obtain some evidence of the underpayment - if the employer pays directly into the helpers account and is underpaying that would cause them a problem
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
I cannot imagine a FDH can be persuaded to take $2,500 per month as her wage. The employer is treading on thin ice. I would only believe an Indonesian DH can be abused like that due to factors I mentioned about their consulate and some bad agencies involving the deals together.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
Also I would make sure before complaining to the authority because your helper may have got it wrong...............
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There have been many cases of underpaid DH but not a lot reported in the English press. One of the main ones last year was an Indonesian helper paid only $1800 per month as her employer said she couldn't speak enough Cantonese. Just the tip of the iceberg.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
There are many many cases of employers underpaying and/or not giving days off to helpers. Many are living like indentured servants because they are in fear of losing their jobs and being sent back with a massive debt and no future.
There are also many cases of agencies overcharging helpers - the Indonesian suffer the most however others also get hit up for extra fees, particularly when they are down to their last days before being sent home if they dont find an employer. We hear many stories of how agencies will ask the helpers for more cash to introduce potential employers when they are desperate (so please use our site and go direct - or use our agency because we charge the helpers NOTHING to find them a new employer).
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maxis
16 yrs ago
Plenty of helpers are underpaid - it is a fact.
It is quite easy to see - of course she'll take an underpaid job.
ok 2500 HKD is still 320 USD, and as they are generally getting accomodation (and should get food) they could send back 200 USD easily (which is quite a lot of money in DH country and feeds many mouths) and still have a decent existence.
So, why hold out when someone is offering you per month what your family probably can't even save per year eh? And you have elderly parents and children eh?
I know I worked for well below (50%) award wages in a dodgy sweat-shop through a time of high unemployment and whilst at uni (1st world ealthy country) - I had no choice and 1/2 wages were much more than zero wages. I didn't mind that much about the cash as it was my choice to allow myself to be underpaid (financially exploited) but the workplace exploitation was aweful. However did I report him? No way, I needed that job! Same thing for the FDH, until the exploitation/abuse becomes untolerable.
That's why the whole FDH market even exists, really - differential in national economies, and people's poverty.
And yes, the Indonesians appear to cop it the worse both from from being underpaid, and also for the level of abuse (scolding, overworking, living conditions etc)
Indonesians are generally not as educated as Filipinos, and have a much weaker external support network than Filipinos. Also, Filipinos have strong community and are considered by some people to be somewhat militant (DH's that is). Thus, Filipinos are less exposed (in general) to under-pay and general abuse.
PROBLEM
If a FDH rejects an underpaid job and take sthr moral highground, there are plenty of others who'll jump at the job, and she doesn't nkow the next time she'll get a job offer......she has to take it, she has no choice when she is cashless
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Some of you appear very naive. Articles in the SCMP have shown that an enormous percentage of indonesian maids are underpaid, with some getting $2000 per month or even less in some cases. Indonesians come from a society where citizens do not have much faith in the government, police, courts or other authorities. Thus, they prefer not to make waves when they come here, fearing the loss of their desperately needed employment. They are not well-versed in their rights nor highly educated like many Filipinas. A former girlfriend was an Indonesian helper, but she was a plucky woman who wouldn't take less than here entitlement under the law. However, this situation is so common as to arguably be the norm among Indonesians.
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Ed
16 yrs ago
Our staff have contact with up to 1000 helpers each month who take ads with us to find employers... underpayment is a huge problem particularly with the Indonesian helpers.
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maxis
16 yrs ago
Like I said above, a job is better than no job, so an Indonesian lady will very often take a below award paying job. As long as the employer isn't a total tyrant, it is tolerable (from their perspective, of course).
When I am in charge of this place, a central deposit facility will be implemented by the immigration department, whereby employers must deposit (or direct draw of a credit card) the amount stipulated in the contract, and the money is then automatically forwarded to the DH's account. Just like most payment arrangement people have.
If the payment is later than the statutory deadline, a surcharge is given, which goes towards the adminstration of the system.
So, how many DH would be underpaid or paid late under that scheme eh? All it is,is a centralised payroll system. Immigration know the full details and addresses of the employers and DH's, and how much they should be paid - couldn't be too hard!
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I agree the system has merit.
As GreenValleys points out bank fees are an issue so a free banking service would have to be implemented. And the bank would have to be open on Sundays or have ATMs everywhere.
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Not too much of a problem, there are banks out there that do not have any fees and are part of the Jetco network giving people access to the largest percentage of ATM's in HK. So not too much of an issue as far as I can see.
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There are quite a few banks that offer all these services for FDH's. Since the administration is so aware of the FDH's situation in HK and concerned about them, maybe it would be a good idea to allow users to inform of the names of the banks for better living standards, equlity and protection of FDH's in Hong Kong.
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Surveys show that anything up to 50% or so of HK employers pay below the minimum so that means tens of thousands of employers, most of whom are otherwise law abiding, are underpaying and tens of thousands of FDH are 'accepting' underpayment (the original poster actually points out the potential FDH knows what she will get before she comes to HK as I would expect many who are underpaid do given that most have friends/relatives already here).
Given the scale of things surely something is wrong with the current system? To me the government should undertake a complete review of the hiring process, fees charged and salaries - perhaps for instance grades of salaries based upon skills or based upon a wage calculated upon a formula related to the average wage in the FDH's country of origin would make sense? (bearing in mind that the vast majority of a FDH wages is sent home so cost of HK living is pretty irrelevant to the arguement of minimum salary). No doubt there will be a few emotional rants in response to my post rather than positive discussion....
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The sheer scale of the numbers invloved proves there is something wrong with the existing system - if 'only' 25% are underpaid that means that 50,000+ employers are breaking the law and it could be doble this number if surveys I have seen published are correct!
And whilst some FDH do miss their family terribly some women don't want to go back home to live.
I believe laws in relation to physical mistreatment are vital (and the levy should be used to support those FDH who suffer) but laws that stipulate fixed minimum wages for all FDH, whatever their skill set or exact job nature, to me is wrong - no doubt many of you will not agree however I feel the 'market' should set rates and if the FDH decides the rate is too low let her go elsewhere or let the employer decide to find a FDH who is willing to accept a lower rate but then accept you get what you pay for. (In essence this is happening with the number of Philippino FDH down over the years whilst Indonesian FDH are up). I might add that my relations who are working in HK as FDH chose to come to HK, they DID have options to go elsewhere (many were already working overseas) but came to HK because they wanted to, attracted by the money and lifestyle.
I now hold my breath and await the attacks on me personally rather than replies that add to the debate....
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You cannot talk about exploitation and what the law requires and mix the two.
If you want to talk about employers that exploit , that is one thing and what the law requires about minimum salary and working condition, that is completely different.
Exploitation, i.e. breaking the law is a criminal offence-full stop.
As regards to the law. The salary of FDH's from Philippines is over 3 times the average salary, and as Katana said "they DID have options to go elsewhere but came to HK because they wanted to, attracted by the money and lifestyle." BTW, I think you contradict yourself there. On one hand you said that the minimum salary is wrong according to your opinion, yet you state as a fact that though they have other options they prefer HK because of money?
FDH's, by law, have to pay HKD 0.00 for food, accomodation, transpotation, electricity, water etc. which is something one can hardly say about Hong Kong workers that serve you in local restaurants or any of the fast food chains.
Anothe rimportant point I think most people here forget is that majority of the families in HK earn arround 30k A MONTH, that is for the whole family! And if both parents work.
If one thinks his/hers FDH should get more pay than the government decided, go for it!
Or maybe even better, maybe the government should decide on the pay like the tax system. The higher the income-the higher you will have to pay your FDH. Then those families that earn 30 a month will pay the minimum of 3,500 (unless anyone thinks they do not desreve to have FDH) and if you earn the 50k plus 50k housing allowance and all other bonuses than your FDH minimum salary will be around the 15,000. Of course government levy will be porpotionate to each salry.
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There is one simple reason why there is a minimum wage for FDH. If there was not there would be some FDH who would not get paid a penny, end of story. We'd be back to the time of the slave...........but it wouldn't happen.
A scenario such as this would led to an exodus of FDH from HK to work elsewhere and that in turn could lead to the cost of a FDH rising dramatically as the pool to choose from would be smaller. It's just a possibility.
Anyway at the end of the day a contract is signed between employer and employee and that should be adhered to. I doubt anyone here would be too happy if their employer cut their wages down below that signed for in the contract with no real reason whatsoever. And yes a employment contract is protected by the same law as that of an FDH contract.
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I think you are a little confused about my post
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Moppet- to put it short, what I meant is that those who pay bellow 3,500 are commiting a crimnial offence and therefore should be sent before a judge to decide thier punishmnet. And, 3,500 is prety much fair as a payment to FDH's concidering what is the common household income of the majority of local families here.
"In most countries of the world people manage without full time live in helpers in fact such a person would be employed only by well to do people in UK etc so why is it necessary for so many people in Hk, Singapore etc to need full time help?"
(I don't know what's it like in Singapore)
Totaly agree with that point but you are forgetting one thing. Whereas in most (if not all) of the other countries a mother to a baby or todllers can leave work earlier than usual becuase of the situation, and she is protected and suported by social and labour laws and also by social norms, here in HK if my wife will tell her boss that she cannot do overtime or that she has to leave early every day because she has a baby at home, his reply would probably be something along these lines " I totally agree and understand you. It's acceptable-but not in my company!". That's why you need FDH if you want to go and work.
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I don't agree that in countries apart for HK that a boss would let you leave early etc to sort out personnel issues or that you’re protected by law that's just not the case. There are good employers and bad in all countries and people have to mange there lives and families accordingly. There is huge pressure in UK to work long hours to do well so it's just not that case that people can go off when it suits them to deal with kids etc. If you can't fulfil your obligations at work you wouldn't keep your job.
In honesty I don't have a problem with the minimum wage but I do have a problem with the workload and hours that lots of people expect from their helpers. Let the salary fit the working hours and expectations we have for our helpers rather than say I can pay minimum wage but have them work 10 hours and more a day 6 days a week for us just because we can.
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Peggie wong
You know, quite occasionally I read posts here( and I don't mean any specific ones in this particular thread) that always bring to my mind Marie Antoinette's famous or infamous say "If they don't have bread then eat cakes".
I haven't read a single thread which shows concern about the local chinese, who actually built Hong Kong to be what it is today, who earns less than 10k and work under conditions where they have no protection of minimum wages nor any which talks about the $900 old people allowance and this is the only thing they have to live on.
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Moppet, in quite a few countries a mother to a baby can actually leave her work(on a daily basis) at certain hour simply because the nusrsery is closing at that hour and since she has no one else, she must take her baby. This is protected by social and/or labour laws and it is also an acceptable social norm within that society. I am not saying that HK is a bad place but this is not the case in HK.
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omaharrison, you ain't going to read it here cos this is about DH. BUT if you had read other threads of mine then you would have read about that. A few of us here know and have had first hand experience of the conditions many find themselves in / have grown up in / have been forced into. To some of us, these are our families.
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As evildeeds has said you would read about that here as this is a DH forum if you wish to discuss such topics you need to go to the appropriate forum. Although i will just say that in UK i believe the old age pension is around 110 pounds a week, not a whole lot more bearing in mind how expensive everything is.
I'd be interested to know which counties these are omaharrison
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evildeeds, I meant the whole site. It would be nice if you could paste some links to the appropriate threads since this topic, I believe, is neglected and should be revived.
Moppet- it's more about the north European contries and few medaterenians, and yes I think the UK gov is neglecting its own subjects, but that's a different discusson.
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so basically some countries may have policies to help parents who work but that still leaves many others that don't who's citizens mange every day without live in helpers the UK definitely being one of those. Just one last point not everyone who has a helper has kids either so my question remains the same why do HK people need live in helpers more than other countries?
I think an honest answer would be that they don't but because helpers are cheap they are wanted.
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omaharrison, plenty on here although I am unable to search using my name here and I'm in China at the moment on an extremely dog slow connection......(sometimes over 2 minutes to open a page...). Believe me I have plenty to say on the subject, especially given my wife's upbringing which would make some of the locals here who believe they have had a hard life sit up and be thankful.
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evildeeds, I did a search over the living in HK threads but didn't know which words to use, 'slave' got me even there mainly about FDH's. I think the point is that these topics are very dormant and people don't find them as relevant to the everyday discussion matters. As for your story, I don't doubt it for a second because the locals who were young people starting 50-60 years ago, i.e. wife and her parents are those that built HK to what it is today, but some people take the present standard of living as granted.
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
At the rate evildeeds and Moppet are going with their holier than thou attitute (they always seem to pair up together to fight for this DH cause which they only see the white line) and if they are the ones to censor who can or cannot have the right to a DH, i think 80% of the employers in HK is not qualified (accordingly to them). So the 80% DH workforce go back to their respective countries jobless and thank this PAIR for fighting so senselessly & unselfishly for them. How lucky they are!!!
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No body is saying don't have a helper my point is it's not your god given right to have one and especially not if you can't afford it and want to underpay the helper. Which is what the thread is about)) There is NO reason that people in HK need full time live in helpers more than anywhere else in the world
I'm sorry that this should offend you FKKC but frankly that's just too bad.
It has nothing to do with being holier than though but everything to do with respecting other people and the contribution they make to society regardless of there job.
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FKKC, can you stay on thread. One thing that people really cannot accept on here, and I make this point regularly is that you are an employer and you should act as such. What the hell holier than thou has go to do with underpayment of wages is beyond me. If I don't pay my staff then I am committing an offense. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?
Let me put this in context for those who still don't get it. Human Rights. Not to do with FDH exclusively. But I apply it evenly across all groups. Who mentioned 80%...........oh no-one except you!
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
I totally agree with you Moppet that we cannot and SHOULD NOT pay less than what the government set up.
Quote from evildeeds: There is the simple reason why there is a minimum wage for FDH. If there was not there would be some FDH who would not get paid a penny, end of story.
Don't be so naive & so extreme in your wordings. BTW, you always put FDH and not DH so you only defend the helpers from The Philippines?
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I believe the F stands for foreign not Philippines
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
OK maybe my mistake - I thought F stands for Filipina/Filipino. Thanks for correcting me Moppet.
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Yes F is for foreign and FDH is the official designation. And I stand by that statement, if there was not a safety net of a minimum wage there would be some unscrupulous employers, not to mention agencies, who would certainly find it as an excuse not to pay at all. I don't think that's naive at all. We only have to look at the news to find one group of workers or another have not been paid - not to mention the exploitation of illegal mainland labour. To believe it doesn't or wouldn't happen would be naive.
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I'll have to side with evildeeds on that one. I am certain there would be some FDHs who would be paid very little if there wasn't a minimum wage and an agency enforcing it. It's a terrible thing to contemplate but it is widely known that many FDHs are abused in many ways.
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I think hearing the racist remarks some of my lovely chinese friends have made about helpers even they would not pay their helpers the minumum if they weren't forced to.
This is offensive.
Can't handle the racism here some days. I find I relate more to the Filipina community than Chinese. although for some reason I am still really attracted to Hong Kong and the vibrancy of this place. Just I don't like the entitled attitude of the young women my age here who haven't faced the hard times and whose parents protected them from hardship and so they think they're better than everyone else. I say this about people who I otherwise really like. It strikes me in the face when they act like their helpers are stupid or not as smart as I am or they are!
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HK is a free economy and there is no wage protection to anyone apart from FDH, I believe.
I know now from stories I hear that quite a few FDH's are being paid the 2000 a month, either after signing that the got the full amount or if they get a full minimum they later asked to withdraw some out and give it back to the employer :s. If minimum wage was not set by law, the problem would have been much worse. I wouldn't be surprised even if some would say that the FDH's are actually lucky to be away from home countries because life here is much better life style wise , food quality wise etc.
Still, I think that the 3,500 minimum set by the government is a fair pay concidering the majority of house holds' earnings in HK. If you can afford to pay more and you think it's right then do so but don't preach or force others, even with the recent 2 years waive of levy.
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The simple fact is, if surveys are to be believed, tens of thousands of otherwise law abiding employers in HK are paying below the minimum wage. (Some surveys mention 50% of FDH are underpaid; ignoring that figure for a moment assuming its 25% that still makes a total of over 50,000 underpaying employers)! Surely something is wrong with the current wage system?
And the idea of all FDH being at the mercy of employers and ignorant of their rights I believe is incorrect; maybe it was true years ago however not today. FDH are met at the airport and given packs explaining their rights and who to contact, they have local newspapers and radio stations in their own languages, they have support from the HK government departments and their own consulates and of course they have their own informal networks. Perhaps many of those FDH paid below the minimum wage still consider what they receive to be acceptable? Even a HK$2500 per month salary is higher than what could be expected in almost all other countries and of course back home.
Maybe then rather than the HK government setting minimum wage levels the FDH’s own government could set the minimum wages and qualifications? If for instance ‘Country A’ decided that all of their FDH sent to HK would need to have a suitable qualification/ certificate and as a result would charge a minimum HK$4000 pm whilst ‘Country B’ may decide the only qualification would be that the FDH was age 18 or above and so set a lower minimum. This approach would let employers select based on cost or qualifications and create a more market orientated employment process whilst still assisting with the necessary minimum wage safeguards.
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Islandhopper,
I have no evidence but I personally believe that most FDH employers paying below minimum are not otheriwse criminally inclined and don't have criminal convictions but rather than debate this (I may be wrong) surely you can agree that the fact is the number underpaying would appear to be not one or two but tens of thousands!!! I still think something is not right with the existing system if so many employers are willing to break the law.
Indonesians, like other FDH, do recieve packages at the airport in their own language, they also have their own language radio station programmess, they also have their own language newspapers published in HK, they have their own networks (friends/family etc) and they have access to HK government support and independent charity support. And they do have some support from their consulate.
I again pose the question: perhaps many of those FDH paid below the minimum wage still consider what they receive to be acceptable? How do we know we are not in their shoes. (The opening post for instance mentioned the FDH coming to HK knew she would be offered only HK$2500 so at least in her case it would not have been a suprise if she accepted the position). Unfortunately I guess those best able to answer (the FDH themselves) will not be reading this.
By the way what do you think about the FDH own country setting HK minimum wage levels? Easily done as I understand consulates see and check the FDH contracts.
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Islandhopper,
Back to the FDH topic rather than immigration in general....
1/ Again I mention tens of thousands apparently paying FDH below the contract minimum so something with the current minimum salary system must be wrong.
2/And perhaps many FDH paid below the contract minimum find what they recieve to be 'acceptable' especially given alternatives and their lack of skills/education?
Enough from me instead could any FDH paid below the contract minimum wish to comment?
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Islandhopper,
Reminder: this forum is not about employment and immigration in general but about FDH.
Rather than refusing to even accept the possibility the minimum wage system as instigated may have a flaw you seem to believe that the answer is stronger policing rather than ascertaining what needs to be done to reform it. Revisit again what you yourself state, that the 50,000+ employers who pay less than the contract minimum are either greedy or can't afford to pay. If its the former then clearly many HK citizens disagree with the wage as set and so sooner or later HK politicians need to take heed of this and undertake a thorough review of current FDH hiring procedures, perhaps lowering the wage perhaps not. And if its the later would it not be better to change the system so that those who can't afford to pay the current minimum are no longer criminals? Alternatively don't change the system and have those underpaid FDH who currently work for an employer unable to pay the minimum wage return home (of course this would result in possibly tens of thousands of them loosing their jobs).
How about you and I post no further on this one issue and let those FDH who are paid less than the current contract rate respond so we can seek their views?
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Islandhopper,
OK if you insist on having the last word so be it but please your comments on the following (which you chose not to comment on previously):
'Alternatively don't change the system and have those underpaid FDH who currently work for an employer unable to pay the minimum wage return home (of course this would result in possibly tens of thousands of them loosing their jobs)'.
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I don't think it's a case of them being unable to pay the minimum wage but more about them being unwilling to pay it. as I've said before Hong Kong people do not need live in helpers any more that people in any other country. The fact is they want helpers to save them from doing stuff for themselves which is fine if the obey the law and are willing to pay the wages of a helper otherwise pick up the wash cloth and sort your own laundry.
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Check "Christian Action", and NGO in HK that provides free legal advice to helpers. Underpayment is probably the most common case they deal with.
The employer is certainly breaking the law, and you can expect to win in court.
But this might not be practical.
I would advise taking the job for 2500, and after finding a new employer, take the stingy one to court, and reclaim the rest of the salary.
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This discussion leaves out one glaring fact.
The majority of OFWs that take up employment in HK dearly want to keep their jobs, they will often accept less than ideal living arrangments (ie sleeping in the toilet, or under the table in the living room, working in two houses) in order to keep their jobs. Under the strict terms of the contract, all of the things I mentioned are illegal, but rarely will a case be made against the er. unless there is physical abuse. The Philippino's have the stronger voice against these practices because they have formed political voice groups to speak for them in the public places, but the INdonesians do not and they get the majority of the low wages. Sad but true
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Most of the cases (of underpayment) I hear/read about do seem to concern Indonesians; I believe this has less to do with being not being ‘organized’ but more because many Indonesians are more willing to accept a lower salary as they still perceive a salary of say HK$2500 pm to be ‘acceptable’ (especially when compared to what they can get back home or in the middle east). For instance this thread was started about the underpayment of an Indonesian who was told before she came to HK what her salary would be (HK$2500). Perhaps this is because many of the Indonesian FDH are less qualified than many of the FDH from the Philippines? It is a fact that lots of Indonesian FDH only have schooling up to age 14 or so (some only to 11) and most do not speak either Cantonese or English when they come to HK.
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ptk
16 yrs ago
Indonesian helpers back home(Jakarta) normally got paid around HKD300-500 per month. Some smaller cities paid even lesser. No holiday except during Moslem New Year. I think, that's the reason why they don't mind getting paid lower.
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cd
16 yrs ago
To Moppet, there are many reasons why people need a full time helper here compared to their home countries. Certainly in the UK, there are many nurseries for full time mums to put their kids into, or they rely on friends/grandparents or childminders (ordinary mums who undergo police checks etc to look after other peoples kids) to do the childcare. None of which is available here. Added to that most sports centres/gyms etc have creches where you can leave your child when you do a class. Also not available here. Even access here for shops is so much harder here if you have a young child, definately not as child or car friendly. Most things are that little bit harder here. It makes a huge difference to your life her to have an extra adult in the house, so that you can pop to the shops on your own if you've forgotten one item, or you can go to school meetings without taking the kids, or even to the drs without a child in tow.
Also you don't know peoples individual circumstances, many people here have elderly parents living with them or disabled dependants (myself included),having a helper live in is often the difference between those people staying at home or being put into care, this is one of the main reasons we stay in HK because it means we can keep our son home with us.
Don't be so quick to judge why people have helpers, there are many reasons.
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Sorry - I read some of these posts but not the last few so someone may have already made this point. No one that I have ever known to be underpaying their helper has ever shown the slightest remorse - they actually believe it is ok because the helper accepts the (illegally low) pay offered. Many of the same people also feel that the long hours they are expected to stay at their own workplace (unpaid) are acceptable, because 'that's the way it is in Hong Kong'. Basically it is a cycle - people here accept that the people above them control their lives, so in return they think it's ok to control other people's (i.e. their helper). A child who is bullied at school will generally go on to bully younger childen. A woman whose husband beats her will probably smack her children. The helper-underpayment thing is just a sad reflection on a cruel society. (For the record, I am an expat, I pay my helper the minimum salary, and I don't beat my children...)
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hi all
I had no idea I would get so many responses when I started this thread. Thanks to all who have given advice. My sisters maid (who is a filipina) has accepted the job for 2500 beacuse she has no choice, as it's hard to come over otherwise. She will try to find another job and then I will help her make a complaint.
Basically I have talked to my maid a lot about things and her family is so poor they literally cannot eat sometimes. My helpers mother did not eat dinner the other day as she gave it to her nephew.
Iwill keep you posted
thanks again
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hi dadda
my helper is also paying all the agency fees as the emplyers don't want to!
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What to me is unacceptable is when a FDH is paid less than what she was promised or is physically abused or over worked. Personally I feel that if a FDH knows what salary she will be getting, whatever that might be, and still decides to come to HK and is paid the amount expected that is not the heinous crime some seem to think it is. At the end of the day the FDH does not have to come to HK, she could work elsewhere – perhaps the middle east or Malaysia or Singapore? And who knows why the employer only wants to pay HK$2,500? Perhaps they cannot afford to pay more or maybe they can and decide to spend the ‘saving’ on their own family instead, it’s their money after all.
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"And who knows why the employer only wants to pay HK$2,500? Perhaps they cannot afford to pay more or maybe they can and decide to spend the ‘saving’ on their own family instead, it’s their money after all."
It may be their money but underpaying a helper, even with the helper's consent, is illegal. If they can't afford paying the minimum wage they should not hire a helper.
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If they can't afford it then the simple fact is do not have a helper. It's not like they are being forced. So I assume the same family steal food from shops because they cannot afford it?
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agree with axptguy and evildeeds, if you can't afford to pay the legal minimum wage you shouldn't have a helper. As i have said before there is no reason people in HK need full time live in helpers more than people in any other country. In most western countries live in help is only for the wealthy not for everyone yet we all have homes, raise families and have jobs.
No legitimate reason for underpaying your helper we'd all have something to say if
our bosses only paid us half our wages why is it different.
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And, imagine the OUTRAGE if in the UK or US, for example, Chinese employees were paid less than the minimum wage on the grounds that 'it's already a lot of money in their own country', which is the justification I frequently hear by underpayers.
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Yes underpaying is illegal and as I mention above the fact that tens of thousands do so to me means something is wrong with the law as it stands. However if it is fully enforced assuming half of underpayers in HK can't afford to pay more (and assuming the others can but don't want to) then based on surveys of underpayment that could mean 15,000+ FDH who would loose their jobs, so which is better: enforcement or not?
Incidentally anyone know how the minimum wage is actually calculated?
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As you can't hire a helper without a minimum income yourself it is not a case of people can't afford it, they choose not too. I could spend my mortgage on something else and claim i can't afford to pay it but i don't think the bank would be very understanding of this they would expect me to fulfill my responsibilities.
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As Moppet said you must have a certain income which you declare to immigration before you are able to hire an FDH. So in that case it is simple, those that hire can afford to pay, no excuses. As I said before if you cannot afford to pay a helper then you simply don't have one.
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i dont have a full time fdh but i have a part-time doing my ironing at least once a week...she lives in the same building and according to her, what she receives is not enough so i took her as my part-time help...does this make me an illegal employer?...hope not..was only trying to help her...and it's been working out so well between us though...
however, she told me recently that she actually works for 3 (siblings) employers!!...but only receives one salary from the main employer, the one who lives in our building.... is this legal???...once or twice a week, she goes to the apartment of the brother of her employer to clean and do the laundry...she receives some money sometimes she said but compensation wise, she only receives one legit....after from that, another brother of her employer who also lives in the same building is using her to clean the apartment and cook for him!...i pity her but what can i do?...
any comments...?...
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The income required before you can hire a FDH involves a rather simplistic calculation, it does not actually take in to account individual circumstances ie the need to pay school fees is not calculated in; governmental interference as far as I can see with a 'we know better than you if you can afford a FDH or not' attitude.
If an employer can afford say HK$2,500 pm and states this would be the salary and the FDH is willing to accept this amount (comparable with any often higher than what they can earn elsewhere) why should the government not allow this?
I would still be interested to know how the current minimum wage is arrived at, I asume there is some logic behind it.
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merlyn - if you are employing someone else's FDH then yes it is illegal. And if she is working at more than one address that is also illegal. This is all clearly stated on the immigration website.
katana - Individual circumstances do not come into it, you are correct. But as an employer you should know the rules and if you cannot afford it you cannot have it. This simple statement to me is kinda like hitting a brick wall.
Let me put this in perspective. You like Ferrari, but you cannot afford it. Can you buy it? No. You like a 10 bed house on The Peak, but cannot afford it. Can you buy it? No. You want a Domestic Helper, but you can't afford it. Can you buy it......... get the jist?
Why is it that people think they are able to justify paying an FDH less because of their own personal circumstances? Paying for kid at school, well take them out of a paying school and put them in local for god's sake! Don't shirk on your responsibilities. In fact if you "cannot" afford an FDH then take on the home responsibilities yourself.
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evildeeds,
You seem to accept that the government should have the right to tell two parties (the employer and employee) what remuneration they must agree to even if they are both happy agreeing to a different wage. We are not talking about 'cheating' the FDH by paying less than the rate that was promised but about two adults agreeing to a rate that both parties accept before the FDH starts the position - if they can't agree a rate then the FDH is not hired and both can look elsewhere.
You are of course right that if you cannot afford something you can't have it. Take the Ferrari you mention. I go to a showroom and negotiate. Or I want a house on the Peak and negotiate. If I cannot aford them I look for alternatives ie a Toyota or a flat in Kowloon or I try to negotiate with a different Ferrrai garage or property owner. With the FDH the government restricts the employers legal ability to negotiate hence why tens of thousands of HK employees are apparently breaking the law - if something is broken then surely it is better to fix it rather than pretend all is fine. At the very least if there is to be a minimum wage let's have a thorough review and agreement of this wage level by a committee representing all parties rather than the current governmental imposition.
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"You seem to accept that the government should have the right to tell two parties (the employer and employee) what remuneration they must agree to even if they are both happy agreeing to a different wage."
Most industrialized countries have minimum wage laws. They are there to protect employees from unscrupulous employers. In countries without minimum wage laws, abuse is typically rampant. Capitalism is all well and good but it is not very good at protecting the weak.
Your argument is that this is an agreement between two consenting parties, but I would argue that the helper bargains from a vastly inferior position. It is hardly a discussion among equals. She needs the job, and has little recourse. It is typically a choice between not getting a job at all or getting a lower salary than the law states. A choice, sure, but not a very nice choice. She has no bargaining power. The employer holds all the cards. The minimum wage law (at least in theory) protects her from an employer who wants to dictate terms.
"With the FDH the government restricts the employers legal ability to negotiate hence why tens of thousands of HK employees are apparently breaking the law - if something is broken then surely it is better to fix it rather than pretend all is fine"
There is no simple solution but I can't see how removing the minimum wage would make things better in this case.
"At the very least if there is to be a minimum wage let's have a thorough review and agreement of this wage level by a committee representing all parties rather than the current governmental imposition."
And who will represent the employers and the helpers? Is there a pervasive union? Is there an employer's organization? How would such a deal be made? What should the minimum wage be based on?
I'm not saying the current situation is perfect. It just seems like the best solution at this time.
"Take the Ferrari you mention. I go to a showroom and negotiate. "
Sure but that dealer will only go so low. The dealer knows that he might get another buyer. Also, he's in a better bargaining position since he doesn't, say, have to leave the country if this particular deal falls through.
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axptguy38,
Interesting view. The FDH do however have alternatives ie Malaysia, Singapore, Middle East etc.
In addition to minimum wages FDH are, quite rightly to me, guaranteed accomodation, food (or allowance for), travel, pay no tax etc so in essence the majority of the salary is over and above that required the very basic necessities. Minimum wages around the world are usually set to ensure these basics are covered.
There are employer organisations and othe parties could be the FDH 'labor unions', charity support, consulates etc.
Perhaps though what would be usefull would be a more openess as to how the minimum wage is calculated and maybe calculated against a 'basket' of similar FDH wage levels in the region or as a percentage of the average HK wages (maybe thgis is what happens?)
If the Ferrari dealer won't go low enough for me then I go elsewhere to buy a car (or give up buying one), again the government restricts the ability to negotiate.
Its clear the current system does not work and the government seems happy with the status quo rather than attempting to fix it. End of postings on this subject from me (for now)....
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
Actually I don't wish to write this as it involves a friend of mine. She's an expat and she thought she's been helpful by signing new helpers in from The Philippines from time to time since she's not a local. Apparently she doesn't pay anything as the helpers themselves did all the procedures themselves and all she has to do is to sponsor. How do these girls earn a living? Doing part-time (the amount is more than the minimum wage and more freedom) and some might end up finding a good steady employer - each to their own!
So you see, there are a lot of FDH out there who just need people to sponsor for them to come over to HK, some prospective employers were tempted by the FDH who are already in HK to sign at a lower than average wage so that their relatives or friends can come to HK, even as far as saying the helper will pay for her own passage.
There was a fleeting thought of 'you know what' when I read OP's thread that her helper's sister must have striked a deal like that.................I didn't believe it's the right thing to do, especially when it's illegal, but these deals do happen and are mostly initiated by the desperate helpers in finding a way to get into HK and aided by people like my friend who thought she was been kind and maybe some stringy employers etc. etc.
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Curently in order to qualify to hire a DH in HK, you must produce proof of income and it must be equal to $15,000 per month. Or if you don't make $15000 per month, you must have proof of "money in the bank" that is somehwere in the neighborhood of $300,000 or so,
FKKC,
If your firiend is sponsoring people to come to HK to work, that means she is the one to apply under her name for them to get a visa. If she is doing this for a specific job, but in fact the person sponsored is doing a different type of job than they are "sponsored" for, your friend will get in trouble if caught.
Any person entering HK comes under differet types of catagores, tourist, working dependant type of visa etc. This is the law and can't be altared. Many hopeful DH come to HK on a tourist visa and try to get work this way, but as such they do not require a sponsor to do this unless your friend is offering to pay their expenses.
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"This is the law and can't be altared"
Well, it can but I see what you mean.
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Ha :) At least not by the common man....
It's not like we can vote on it eh?
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
My friend is a widow and has sufficient money in the bank to show that she has the ability to hire a FDH, therefore when she is called upon to help sponsor someone to come to HK as a FDH by any of her friends' helpers. she will readily do it without any obligation as long as she has the available quota to hire one in pretence. So far to my knowledge, she had sponsored 5 helpers during the period in the 80's/90's, 3 find very good families to work for after reaching HK and 2 preferred to work part-time and never got caught.
I advised her not to when I learnt her tricks saying it might back-fire and now she doesn't confide in me anymore.
I guess this practice is still going on - not exactly like the above but helpers in HK do invite propective employers to hire their relatives back home by suggesting they will proceed everything without charging them and even offer to lower the salary to obtain the job. 2 willing partners. Sad but true.
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"My friend is a widow and has sufficient money in the bank to show that she has the ability to hire a FDH"
Which means she can pay the HK$50,000 fine if caught, wonder if she's considered the 2 year jail sentence?
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FKKC
16 yrs ago
evildeeds
That's why this friend doesn't confide in me anymore as we had an arguement over this issue when I pointed out the consequences.
kylecook
Why do you say this is typical of the HK people when your one story here doesn't even make sense.
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